Youth Without Borders

I read your article Hira. It is nice. I can feel in it the purety of simpleness, from the heart of the teenage who haven`t (and I pray, may never) come accross cruel realities. I remember when Bosnian PM responded to one of the Pakistani journalist. She said, ``we did not knew who we were, as we were living with them like they were, marrying with them and sharing with them, we had forgotton we were Muslims or had any specific identity, morals and values...what just happened has taught us and made us realized...we are Muslims...their hate was so strong that no matter what we did, we were still not one of them....

Most of the Indians are like the Croats, they will talk about Pakistan in not friendly terms, I understand as that is how their ``democratic`` government has brought them up and their media ``programed`` them. Living in Pakistan you or your friend tell me in how many Pakistani dramas or films India is either dragged in or humiliated. I tell you the tone and language used in Indian media for Pakistan is so horrible that you cannot imagine. Since 1977 I promised myself never to see an Indian movie or music, I stand by it today, but I am not bigoted, if go anywhere where a movie is on display or there is some discussion, I do not leave immediately, but do look for an opportunity to leave. India is so full of hate against Pakistan that when they do a ``friendly`` gesture they still hurt either Pakistani pride or Islamic principles or both like veer-zara. Look at their movie`s dialogues, newspapers and magzines and compare them with those in Pakistan you will realize where the real hate lies. They tell me on this happens on both the sides, and I say please distinguish between burning down a complete house and burning an entrace gate of a house in response.

They will talk about democracy in India and martial laws in Pakistan, but will not like to mention that their democracy has helped kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims, raped and kidnapped over the last two decades (millions during the partition) as compare to only select some individual acts against minorities in Pakistan during martial laws. They will try and convince you about Pakistani army going first in Kashmir, but will not mention that in fact Pakistani army had a British General, Gracy who refused to honor Jinnah`s command to go and resist Indian army taking over Kashmir as Indian army was under Lord Mountbatin`s command and Gracy`s first loyalty was with Queen of England`s representative. It was only after formal removal of Gracy that Pakistan Army could go and resist Indian army`s advance and hence creation of LOC. They will speak of Cargil but will remain silent on Siachin and 2 other posts on LOC which they violated first. ...

Let me stop here for I sound horrible telling things against India, on the platform where you just have expressed your gentle feelings - the generation of Hira would think I am telling them not to befriend Indians and am against peace...no, it is not so, I am just warning based on my experiences or is it the experiences of centuries for there must be traitors those helped few Englishmen to take over Pakistan-India subcontinent. Extend your hands for friendship if you want to and I only hope you get sincerity in return, those who befriends you as Muslims and Pakistanis not because in the name of friendship the one who adopts hindu traditions and steps out of their Muslim morals and Pakistani pride, for surely being Hindu, Sikh and Indians is not held against them by us.


My wishes for Kasmiri freedom fighters both physical and political and those who are fighting for them leaving their peaceful homes...they deserve freedom as we deserved from others in 1947.

Re: # 19
dear madani,u talk of Kashmir as of an apple or some exotic fruit.`if we cannot get kashmir` u talk of the land not of the people living there.It is plain from your comments that they mean nothing to you.Do you know what they want? what there aspirations are?
The trouble in Kashmir will never end unless the peoples wishes are taken into account and that might mean kashmir not joining either of it corrupt neighbours.

I know exactly what you mean by making friends you are not likely ever to see the faces of again. Thinking of the wonderful time spent together during such events is always so poignant. I remember the time I had gone to Bangkok on a Human Rights Training course and met the most wonderful motley of people from all over the Asia Pacific. You talk of just Indians? I met Filipinos, Moros to be exact, Burmese, Cambodian, Aborigines, Indonesians, all dedicated to the plight of HR in their countries, all beacons of hope and activism in their spheres. Once we were through with the day long training we headed out in search of Muslim restaurants and the non muslim friends tagged along. We had a whole floor to ourselves and made sure all others requested a change of rooms with our late night laughs and corridoor meets.
Despite having made promises and plans of meeting on some other platform, all of us know it would not be possible. Web was the last recourse to stay in touch but that too ruled out as we were all drowned in daily work and grilling routines.
As of now, I log onto my mail box in hopes of seeing something from my DTP friends. Once in a while one of us sends across our latest accomplishment but that truth be told, is not enough for me, I know the amd cap person we all otherwise were and miss that camaraderie. And would probably keep on missing that. The important thing is the understanding I gained of people otherwise i would never have met. The fact that despite all our differences in color, cast, creed, religion et al, we all shared something in common: A hope for a better and just world.

#383 by rsridhar

sridhar, thanks... that was very interesting and informative... am in a rush now... will try to get back later... what you said btw put me in mind of a proverb, I can`t remember it exactly or in which language it was... something to the effect that there is no enmity as bitter as that of those who were once friends (or brothers?)

and of course south indians care! aren`t we indians before everything else??

you spoke of Noor ... it was BIG news last month in Bangalore where I live... every single day on the front page... with updates, interviews, reports on the parents` visits to local tourist spots (they even went to ISKCON temple, and were presented a copy of the Bhagavad Gita each by the priests)... the outpouring of public affection and good feeling was simply amazing... of course there were the usual number of detractors who dashed off letters to newspapers saying things like...

why is so much fuss being made of a pakistani child?? aren`t there enough indian kids who are sick, who cares about them? and so on (the urstrulys of bangalore ;)

but for most of us, it was something to feel good about... NOT in the crowing `oh pakistan doesn`t have the facilities we do so they have to come here for treatment` kind of way... but a genuine feeling of happiness that our city was able to help a sick child from another country, esp one that we almost went to war with last year... mixed with the hope that this might lead to kindlier feelings among us...

cheers... :)

his highness Mr Manto
yea sure no harm in allowing these kids to ``have fun`` and socialise cept perhaps teenage pregnancies but as for them growing up to be media moguls and business men! dont you see! are u so naive that u cant tell that that is why they are going to be further distanced from the common man!~ the common man does not trust our business hogs and media whores! and for a good goddamn reaosn! its because the majority are money laundering personal limelight hogging gorai kai pithoo and/or elitist godfrosaken drawing room critics like you! and that ties in with the whole english speaking thingy! the common man does not trust the elitist idiot who believes english defines the subsatnce of a man! and sorry dearie but the average elitist does think that way! (hai woh to angraizee bhe nahin boltra woh to jaahil hai) and this is no alien concept! plus dont forget that the amount of toime and effort and funds being wasted in this ``harmless`` fun could be used to feed the needy or educate the illeterate and that makes better sense! sorry but once again iull have to go by wat razz says he seems to be the only practically thinking levelk headed here at earth person as oppssed to u lala land idiots! we have to make theese kids realize that they are channelling their efforts in a fruitless and idealistic struggle and show them beeter techniques in solving worlds problems! get then to set up education ngo`s or other chgarity thigns not send them to bloody karachee for a month to enjoy socialising and romancing while deluding them to the real world! i think in the end the whole thing is an inherent danger to the cause it self because it only serves to sidtance these ppl from the regular! the commoners! the peasent watrever the crap u wanna call em in ure drawing rooim language! o yea and btw i dont think they only want peace! i think the majority are doing it to help their admissions cause or to get laid or watever! but trust mne i have freoinds in the organization! its a whole social upfront ``i also wanna be seen`` sham! and thats is why my good friend i do not support it and see harm in it! but u wouldnt really give it a secong thouhgt would you! coz after all any one practical enuff to know how the things work around here is a fundo and a myopic extremist right! set down ure tea turn off the ac and come out of the drawing room u fool coz thats where the rest of us are herded getting hurt by ure elitist gora views! have a nicre day ure majesty!
adios amigos

Re Manto:

the fact that those kids had trouble speaking in their respective languages and made their film in english is ONE of the things which reflects that they rnt representative of the common man. Dont bring Jinnah into this because jinnah was a leader with mass public support who clearly had the backing of the common man as proven by the 1946 elections. No comparison at all. As for the elite kids being future policy makers..... i hate to repeat myself again but here it is...why i wouldnt want them as our leaders.
``Just think that when these kids grow up they wont just be worried about their peace and ideals....they would have their family business to take care off as well as a lot of other things....vested interests would make it very difficult for them to change it because of the status quo which has produced them in the first place. You described them as future mediamen and industrialists and politicians......well before them their fathers hav retained these positions....do you think of them as EVIL men who couldnt make a difference....no it was not because they were evil...they had other priorities....and with time so will these kids....do you think as an industrialist one of these kids would want free trade with india because of the impending danger of his being kicked out of the competitive market..............as a scion of political family one of these would not like to play the kashmir card to gain sympathy of the voters as his forefathers have been doing ( i could give you two examples of such idealistic kids gone all political and india bashers who are members of assembly on Q league`s ticket in the current National assembly). And the list goes on and on.....
so the very thought that these elite kids would control out future as well is a very disturbing thought for me because it would mean an extension of the status quo as these elite families have too much at stake and too much to lose with a change in the future. Remember we are in this situation because of these ELITES in the first place. Thats why i want the middle class and common man to have a say in the future not the elites.``



cheers
raza

re:#330 by anuradha
Your sentiments are worth applauding. I too started out in Chowk 2 years ago (perhaps more) in a similar fashion. IF you interact long enough, you will notice that Chowk is like any other place: there are some very good fellas, some very bad ones but the majority are average people. We are here because we like it. Nothing that is said here is personal.
I am a South Indian who grew up in North and have a better perspective of what Northies are thinking. So, here is my take on Indo-Pak relations for what it is worth:

For me , this Indo-Pak rivalry is purely a North Indian thing. After all, Pakis were all North Indians at one time. Then came partition. Like 2 brothers who agreed to seperate because they could not live together, Indian (mainly North Indians) and Pak seperated on religious and ideological grounds.
Much has happened to Pak since then. It has not been able to have a people` s govt and continues to throw up dictators who make India`s life very difficult. Pak, instead of going on its own path of ``self-discovery`` started defining itself as ``something that is not India``. It has become absurd now. The ideological rift is so wide that Pak has to systematically dismantle all the apparutuses that it has carefully built in the past 50 years and this incudes the huge defense infrastructure, jehadi camps, anti-Indian indoctrinations from school onwards etc. In other words, it has to invest in ``friendship with India`` as a policy. This needs change in mindset of its rulers, who are the Army Brass.
If North Indians and Pakis are buddies, what is wrong. Why are the 2 countries at each other`s throats? And, should we South Indians care?
To answer the last question first, South Indians are as much affected today as Northies are due to to the nuclear dimesions. Things have changed drastically after Kargil, which for the first time was broadcast nationwide and affected Southies as much as Northies. So, yes. South Indians have to care about how Indo-Pak relations are going. This relationship however seems to be determined by North Indians who are emotional about it. This has distorted the picture. We see this love-hate relationship. As we speak, it is back to ``love``.

India had the unique opportunity of solving the Kashmir problem and may be, give ``substantial`` concessions to the Bhutto govt after 1971 war. India could have been magnanimous. Paki army was down the dumps and if India had invested in friendship with Pak then, Paki political institutions would have been strengthened and Army would not be as powerful today as it is. India allowed Paki army to bounce back by ``popular will and perception`` of average Paki of India to be a hegemon and an enemy to be defended against. Who else to turn to except the Army? So, Paki army acquired this ``holy cow`` label and has capitalised on it ever since.
Then, India went ahead with nuclear test (the one in 1974) and the region has never been the same again.
Why are we enemies then? In order to understand that, you need to read the 2 articles, one by Vir Sanghvi and the other by M.J Akbar. Here are the links. Read them to know how difficult it is to achieve peace between the 2 nations, good intentions of a lot of people notwithstanding.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=315213
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=315225

I conclude with these insightful words from M.J. Akbar`s column:
``Imperatives will create peace, if we are to achieve it. Goodwill is simply not good enough, even if there was much sincere goodwill available. Peace will come when the people shape the moment, when a child called Noor is the source of change, and teenagers are greeting with the special rapture that the young reserve for their own, melting borders with their warmth and teasing armies with their laughter. Peace will come when governments learn to follow the people. For too long we have been advised that civilians must understand the Army mind if we want peace with Pakistan. Perhaps it is time that the Army learnt to understand the civilian heart — on both sides of the border.``

Sridhar

Dear Razzz,

Good that you decided to restore the civility.

First of all about the sentence picking, I merely pointed out to you that if someone speaks in English or not it doesn`t mean they are representative or not. Infact you agreed with me when we talked about Jinnah. You just couldn`t find it in yourself to admit it. If these kids are not representative of the common man it is because of other reasons, and not because they choose to speak in English.

I agree that these kids are elitist and they may not represent the common man. Still I don`t see the harm in letting them meet, and party with each other. Besides idealism aside, it is a fact that these kids, by virtue of their luck and wealth, will be important as business leaders, media moguls etc. I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing, but that is the way it is. I personally didn`t get the feeling that they were inclined towards fun, but again you have your way of looking at things.

My one harmless comment about your `diction` was made after the loads of abuse you heaped on me.. I hope you will acknowledge that as well.. still nothing in that comment could even compare to the comments you passed, and if you are as fairminded as you claim to be, you will realize that.

-Manto

#368 by temporal


thank you, t.

:)

Manto: fair enough.

what can be done about a person who is more fond of picking on sentences and so called flaws in DICTION then talk about the ISSUE. Now in a CIVIL language which u r sooooo fond of.....manto bhai !!! i am proposing a practical and pragmatic approach over here...not an idealistic one which never gets realized. and its not as if this happens only in pakistan...it happens all over the world.....idealism never works......if one were to believe the main covenants of socialism what could be more beneficial to a nation state then that....but as we can see that its not practical to implement it....cz once the state gains power...it never whithers away....same is the case with capitlalism turning into crony capitalism......do you think ideals like nation without flags or borders have any long term meaning ?. Coming back to the kids.......as i earlier pointed out ..sure they might have good intentions right now...though i think they were more inclined towards the fun bit then the serious issues at hand.....just another party and reason for hanging out for them........yeh but in this case they had a peace conference rather then a drama,concert exhibition or a fair etc......anyway if we believe your argument we know from experience that as they grow up their idealism will be replaced by a need to mantain the status quo which gives extension to the elite society. anyway i guess conflict of interest will always remain......so goodluck with ur idealism but dont expect the mainstream to consider that as THEIR voice. :)
cheers
raza

Dear Dullah Bhatti Bhai,

You are right ... Jinnah`s vision didn`t come to fruition. All I can say is that Jinnah probably thought too highly of the nation he was leading.. he was wrong in assuming that much... The Emphasis on Jinnah is precisely to that end of bringing his vision of a modern secular and democratic polity to a completion.

What I meant to say when I mentioned learning about Bhagat Singh through Jinnah`s speech was simply that in a country like Pakistan where freedom struggle has been limited to only Muslim Heroes (Real or imaginary), it was Jinnah`s life which inspired me to read more about South Asia... it was after I read more about his pre-Pakistan movement politics that led me to probe deeper into the alternate freedom struggles (of which Jinnah himself was a part)...

Dullah Bhatti Bhai.. frankly in Pakistan, History itself is a secret well protected by few... even Jinnah`s life is obscured for the most part... what to talk of a non-Muslim freedom fighter? I agree with you on how a person should find out about his/her roots...if only history was more readily available to Pakistani kids... though I don`t agree with the language issue... there are other reasons for it, and none of them are due to a bias against my own Punjabi roots... for me the order remains the World, Pakistan and then Punjab and Lahore... Hence English, Urdu and Punjabi in that order.

-Manto

Manto: I don`t know a lot about Jinnah but from what you say about him, he was probably a fine man. If he envisioned a secular country with muslim majority with equal protection and rights of other native minorities then I don`t see anything wrong with it..but that did not happen. I don`t blame him for it but for a visionary he was, he should have foreseen it. If he could see Muslims will be treated badly by Hindu majority, how could he not see non-muslims treated badly by muslims? I am glad you found Bhagat singh through Jinnah speech but it was not a secret that one could have not found out any where else. you could have just found it by reading a little bit of Govt College Lahore, lahore Jail, freedom struggle, Gadhar movement ...or any related subject. May be if you did not concentrate that much on Jinnah and also read alternate freedom struggles you would have found out about Bhagat singh long time ago.

Anyway, I did not read your book review because I have the same book sitting on my table for last 1 month and have not gotten to it yet.

You have guessed correctly about dullabhatti ID`s background...though I did not have to read master Tara Singh`s speeches to find about Dullah Bhatti ;-) ...dulleh bhatti di vaar was fed to me when I was probably 5 yr old. A child should not have to read thick academic books to find out his/her roots...don`t you think it should be simpler than that? that is why I disagree with you on the order of importance of languages...for a punjabi kid...order should be Punjabi, English, Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Kashmiri, Pashto, Sindhi, Gujrati etc.

Examples of Razzz`s tolerance:

`lunatic` `kisser of soles of the elite` `delusional` `elitist` `drawing room critic` `nobody` as quoted from Razzz`s posts.

People If this is tolerance I don`t want any part of it... Believe me you will not find `tolerance` of this kind in my posts...


God save the world from such `tolerance`

Ah... my tolerance level? Physician heal thyself.

Dude you are the one who has been raving and ranting about a bunch of kids whose only crime is that they want peace ... remember I didn`t attack you, you attacked me... all for what? That I supported those kids? Should we go back and dig up the post where you started attacking me unprovoked? Still my posts are way more decent and civil then you can ever hope to be. I am not the one who is constantly referring to `licking of soles` and `drawing room nobodies`...

So much for a sense of fairness...

scott,

granted Allah is al Rahman and ar Rahim and He CAN forgive whomsoever He wills but He has Himself said in His Book --in numerous verses --that the Unbelievers in the Hereafter are going to Hell; since He is also The Truthful and since contradictions are impossible for Him-Glorious is He!--it is therefore established Muslim belief of the Ahlus Sunnah w`al Jama`ah that the Unbelievers are in the Hellfire.

***

In THIS life if a Unbeliever does good he is rewarded by Allah but in the Next Life the Mercy of Allah is only for the Believers as He Himself has said in His Book and as His Messenger has explained--Allah bless him and give him peace.

**