Youth Without Borders

Romair, here is something else for you to see. Go to www.the-week.com and see the people under who are celebrated as the stars(for the 56 th ann of independence). See something there. Notice the people picked. They are from the whole spectrum of society rich poor hindu muslin etc. We in Pakistan have do not even knwo that there is a physics noble laurate who hailed from pakistan. That is the state we are in. And yet you say the Indians do not discuss anything pakistani apart from jihadis and few other things! Time to wake up and smell the coffee. Celebrate achievements of people who make a real difference to the quality of life in pakistan. The day we do it is the day we start bettering ourselves.

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arjun 141 ``HAHA...Is that why Nawaz sharif flew to DC uninvited and on the 4th of July? so that clinton could beg Nawaz to withdraw...``

Heh? You are well-known raving lunatic on Chowk, do you really have to be a total fool as well?

stuka #139 ``The peace and love brigade is Pakistan`s internal issue therefore I will not comment.``

Being a little disingenous here, aren`t you? You too were egging on the peace & love brigade, India`s useful idiots among Pakistanis. What do YOU have to say about Indian plans to divert Bangladesh`s river water? Do you think if Bangladesh too were to arrange a lil cross-border love-fest in Dhaka it could save itself from being destroyed by India? If not, what makes you think they`ll do Pakistan any good? If so, how come the Bangladeshis aren`t arranging a lil party for puffed-up rich kids in Dhaka RIGHT AT THIS VERY MINUTE?



``I assume you are part of the war and hate brigade.``

I am a card carrying member of the peace-with-honour-but-if-India-wants-war-it`ll-get-war brigade.

rsaxena #156 You win some, you lose some. That`s life. Only a fool would make present military assements based on past glories or defeats. If that were the case you Indians wouldn`t even bother having an army, being the all-time great historical record-breakers when it comes to losing wars.

mantolives #156 ``in 1971 they lost half the country... imagine a fully armed fighting force of 90 000 surrendering .... ``

You idiot, they were a thousand miles away from home, surrounded by tens of millions of hostile Bengalis and facing most of the Indian army. They perhaps should have fought to the end, but you can`t blame them for losing. Pakistan lost the war and lost East Pakistan when fools like you forced Urdu on the Bengalis and when other fools labeled them as `Bingos` and `Blackies`. You expect the army to clean up the almighty mess made by civilians?

dost-mittar #73: My comments aren’t directed specifically at you. They are directed at all Indians. And, I am saying them in an inquisitive sense, not in an attacking sense.

To say that, ``hatred created by the bloodletting of the Partition was sustained in Pakistan by the education system that was created in the newly formed country`` is not a minor thing, if you ask me. If this were true, then why would so many Pakistanis take so much interest in things Indian, and know so much more about India, than vice-versa. Looking at a few Pakistani books, and using them as a criteria, isn`t enough, in my opinion.

The important thing is that Imran Khan, at least, went to India. At least, he made an attempt to learn about the place. He had actually been there many times before as a cricket player, and allegedly had an association with Zeenat Aman. And invited a whole bunch of Indian actors for his charity shows in Lahore. So, he probably knows far more about India, then he is letting on.

But, at least, like so many of us, the guy made an effort, to step across the border (physically or intellectually), despite having so many complains against India. Why don`t we see that desire or effort amongst Indians?

For example, how many Pakistanis do you meet socially? How many Pakistanis shows do you attend annually (I know there are so many every month in Toronto)? How many times have you attempted to get into some sort of a business deal with a Pakistani? Have you made serious efforts to visit Pakistan? Are Indian newspapers your main source of opinion-formation on Pakistan? How many Pakistani channels do you get at home? How many Pakistani Videos do you watch at home? What are your honest views about Jinnah? Do you respect him and his views? Do you apply a constant principle across the board on Indo-Pak relations, or do you change your principle to favor India? How openly critical are you of India`s military actions against Pakistan in places like Siachen? How many topics on Pakistan do you have more knowledge than Pakistanis, themselves? etc.

Again by, “you” I mean Indians, in general.

From my side (and probably from the side of many Pakistanis): I meet five to ten Indians everyday at work. I eat lunch with them. Sometimes even breakfast. My wife and I associate with quite a few Indian families socially. My wife and I attend four to five Indian shows a year. I am currently in a business deal with an Indian, who is my accountant. I am trying hard to get into one with Wipro. I am currently making plans to visit India in nine months for small joint ventures. I completely reject what Pakistani newspapers write about India, and only rely on international sources. I get two Indian channels at home, even though their news sections are filled with anti-Pakistan propoganda. I watch God knows how many Indian movies on the VCR. I respect Gandhi’s views, and have read up quite a bit about him. I apply one constant principle across the board on Indo-Pak relations, and blame Pakistan for East Pakistan (regardless of Mukti Bahani etc.) and India (primarily) for Kashmir, on the basis of self-determination for human beings. I have been very critical of Pakstan’s actions in Kargil. I think I have more knowledge than most Indians on India’s military, IT industry and Hindi film industry.

And you need to keep in mind that I was actually a member of the Pakistani military, which according to all Indians (and even many Pakistanis) is brainwashed into hating India. And I am ethnically Kashmiri, also. If Pakistan had run over Delhi and was killing people in Delhi (even if they were terrorists), would the people of Delhi be so interested in learning about Pakistan? Would they attempt to have objective views, by understanding the, “enemy?” Why is their such a difference in approach and effort to understand each other between Indians and Pakistanis?

I think it is great that Indians visit places like Chowk. I respect them for that. At least, they are attempting to learn about Pakistan. But, I think they need to do a lot more. For starters, they need to open up their mind. Be willing to accept that India could be wrong on a lot of issues vis-a-vis Pakistan. They need to be willing to meet Pakistanis half-way. To challenge their own govts. policies towards Pakistan. To have differing views about Pakistan.

This is completely missing. Indians do have differing views on their internal situations like Muslims in Gujrat, BJP, cow slaughter, different or similar laws etc. But, when it comes to Pakistan, every Indian seems to line up behind the same policy. Doesn`t matter if the person is from BJP or Congress or any other party. This is why the BJP will always dominate the Nehruites. Because they have too much in common, when it comes to Indo-Pak relations and issues. The only thing BJP has to do to get the Nehruites to line up behind it is too raise anti-Pakistan issues.

If a Pakistani wrote an article here about East Pakistan, nearly every Pakistani will accept Pakistan`s faults. They would blame different agencies in Pakistan, but they would blame Pakistan, in general, regardless of India’s support of terrorist organizations like the Mukti Bahani. If an Indian wrote an article about India`s violations in Kashmir, pointing towards self-determination or third party mediation, he/she would get hounded out of this site, by all the other Indian interactors. Why is there such a difference in attitude? Why can Pakistanis accept that Bangladesh should have come into existence, but Indians cannot accept the same, about other areas in South Asia (though they do accept it for Bangladesh, oddly).

I think it is because Indians haven`t made an effort to learn about Pakistan. I know more about India than individuals of your age group know about Pakistan. Isn`t there something wrong with this scenario? I think since Indians don`t know much about Pakistan, hence they buy into whatever their govt. throws at them. This leads to the self-righteous attitude one sees here amongst Indians, regarding Pakistan. This also explains the contradiction, I have seen amongst Indians, in that individually they seem pretty nice guys, but collectively, vis-a-vis Pakistan, they just don`t want to comprimise on anything that doesn`t fit directly into India`s stance.

I think it would be fair to assume that Pakistan has just as many grievances against India, as India has against Pakistan. So we should hate each other equally, and avoid each other equally. But you will see that Pakistan is offering talks to India, Pakistan wants to play cricket against India, Pakistan wants to involve third parties in solving our problems, Pakistan is willing to discuss everything without sidelining any issue. However, India is unwilling to do any of these. Yet not a single Indian complains. They seem to see nothing wrong with this attitude. This can only occur when one side is convinced it is correct, and is unwilling to meet the other side half-way, i.e. unwilling to comprimise.

Just imagine what will happen if Pakistan also adopted this attitude. You need to keep in mind that just like India considers Pakistan to be the, ``terrorist`` in Kashmir, Pakistani considers India to be the, ``terrorist`` in Kashmir. In fact, Pakistanis are convinced that if some neutral agency asked the Kashmiris themselves, they would point to India being the terrorist also (or at least a much bigger terrorist than Pakistan). Ditto on all other issues. So who is right and who is wrong?

My fear is that, if Indians do not give up the self-righteous attitude of laying down condition after condition, for even talking to Pakistan, then pretty soon, Pakistan will start doing the same. It will also say, well, we will not talk to India, until the Indian Army stops its terrorism in Kashmir. Or that we think Kashmir is an atut-ang of Pakistan. Or that India is causing all the violence in Pakistan. As the Indians say that they will not talk with Pakistan, until Pakistan stops its terrorism in Kashmir. etc. etc.

What happens then? Both countries, laying down conditions…..

I would advise our Indian friends (I am not using this word saracastically) to, for a moment, accept that India could be wrong on 50% of its issues with Pakistan. While Pakistan is wrong on the other 50%. And then, step away from the Indian govt. line, and start looking at the relationship independently, based on human rights, fairplay etc. And to try to understand some of the contradictions in their own govts.` stances around Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kashmir, UN, military spending, nuclear armaments, etc.. This is what a lot of Pakistanis are doing, and this is why all the discussions on these threads revolve around Pakistanis discussing India intelligently with Indians, and not around Indians discussing Pakistans with Pakistanis intelligently.

Pakistan and India will never be able to make peace, if they stick to the status quo. Both sides (not just one side) will have to give up the status quo, and be willing to accept solutions for peace, that do not fit eithers` current stance. They cannot be self-righteous. To do so, both sides need to understand each other.

dionysus#134
It so happens that most of the waters flowing into Pakistan have their origin in India. It is therefore more important for Pakistan than India to find a cooperative solution to this emerging potential bombshell. Unless you really believe that one Muslim equals ten Hindus and one Muslim T-80 tank equals ten Hindu T-90 tanks or that one Muslim nuclear bomb is equal to ten Hindu nuclear bombs.

Good Indo-Pak relations are good for India, they are crucial for Pakistan.

Romair:
Prithvi Raj Kapoor migrated to Bombay from Peshawar, as did Dilip Kumar (the original Khan!). Shahrukh Khan`s grandfather was one of the few Pathans who chose to come to India rather than stay in Pakistan. Dev Anand is from Gurdaspur but went to Lahore College. Sunil Dutt (real name Balraj) is from Jehlum/Rawalpinidi. Rajinder Kumar, Manoj, Kamini Kaushal, Bina Rai, Prem Nath and many second/third generation actors have their origin in Pakistan, as have some of the topmost producers like BR/Yash Chopra and Subhash Ghai. I dont think that many Pakistani Muhajir actors have made it to the film industry in Pakistan , but quite a few have made it as producers/directors/screenplay writers.

Romair#159
I had just made a simple statement. You posted a long reply telling me that I am ignorant about Pakistan, without refuting that statement. So, let me elaborate the point with supporting evidence from your most favourite Pakistani, none other than the only civilian in shining arms, Imran Khan.

He happened to be in India when I was there, to participate in a conclave on India`s future organized by India Today. The excerpts from his speech were published in that magazine. He said that, because of what he had been taught from his childhood, he was expecting the worst form of hostility from Indians when he came with his team to India. Instead, he and his team got more love and affection there than they had anywhere else in the world. This is the point I was trying to make to Madani. By the way, this is also a point made by several Pakistani chowkies (you know who they are!) as well as several Pakistani columnists. Besides, more than once, people on chowk have posted excerpts from the Pakistani school curriculum. And finally, if I am still ignorant about Pakistan after spending years on chowk, then you, hamidm, sameerjb, ylh/manto, urstruly, tahmed and others must be really lousy communicators.
Just one more point. I am not self-righteous about India. I think neither India nor Pakistan can stand on a moral high pedestal. And I do want to learn more about Pakistan and Pakistanis. That`s why I am here at chowk.

I will like to say one thing about 1971 - it is simply not that much of an obsession with Indians anymore, since Bangladesh is a natural fact of life now for the past 32 years.

tahmed32

How true...

Pakistan Army wallahs should understand the civilian population`s disenchantment with the army is not a recent phenomenon ... it took their extreme cowardice in face of the enemy, and their incredible audacity in the face of their own people. Army is the scourge of Pakistan. It is the gigantic humongous leech which just doesn`t get off. ..

The Army wallahs have big houses, big cars, big plots and big clubs all over Pakistan. Generals all over the world drive around in Military Jeeps... Pakistani generals drive around in BMWs and Mercedes. Generals all over the world are busy practising art of war ... Pakistani Generals are busy running the KESC, Universities, Pakistan Cricket Board amongst other things... I can go on.

-Manto

Razz,

Its very sad that you are castng aspersions on the patriotism of those brave Pakistanis... we are hearing the same old same old... drawing room critics, can`t speak in the local language etc etc... this accusation of not being able to speak the native language is very shallow (try and recall who in our history could and couldn`t speak the native tongue fluently)... First of all Patriotism shouldn`t be judged by that... secondly all of them were perfectly fluent in Urdu...

-Manto

Mantoloves #166 ``had lunch at our gymkhana ``
And would no doubt have been served with ``putteenk`` for dessert (``putteenk`` being bearer - aka ``bayraah`` - twisting of the word pudding).

``The only people Pakistan Army knows how to conquer is Pakistanis.``

I annoyed a couple of army chaps this time in Pakistan when I mentioned how they fcuked up everything everytime: losing wars, backing mullahs first in Afghanistan and now within Pakistan, seeking continued confrontation with a country ten times the size of Pakistan. The boys turned deep purple and for a minute I thought they were going to call in the firing squad as soon as they were finished eating their mangoes. However, they merely responded about sharing with me ``some concern for the army image with the civilian population`` and changed the subject.

Once again, I think the solution for Pakistan would be for Pakistanis to elect their Generals. And call in the CEC from India to conduct these elections.

After that, remaining Pakistan Army can be sent to Iraq, while Indian Army can patrol all possible borders.

Can`t our political leaders see the profit in this scenario?

tahmed32

You never could understand my position... so I won`t waste my time trying to explain it to you.

Ofcourse I wouldn`t expect you to all of a sudden side with Romair, who because he couldn`t answer valid questions by Sameerjb and PM, has been going on and on and on with his own myopic thesis on `secular extremism` and `religionism`... and if I try to point out his very apparent contradictions, he starts proclaiming my insanity. Appeal to someone`s past, however will only get you so far. Time heals all wounds.

-Manto

Rsaxena,

Thankyou for putting up that picture. I speak to you as a patriot of Pakistan. These Army wallahs need to be shown their true worth. Pakistan Army acts like the saviour of the nation... what have they done except lose? .. In 65 it was the PAF which saved their arse or you chaps would have marched right on to Lahore and had lunch at our gymkhana thanks to our army, in 1971 they lost half the country... imagine a fully armed fighting force of 90 000 surrendering ....

The only people Pakistan Army knows how to conquer is Pakistanis.

Irony: General Niazi refers to himself as Tiger Niazi...