A New Constitution for Pakistan

#88 by hamidm2

Yes they eat the same menu. And I do occasionally eat with them.

If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that the solution to illiteracy and racism is a classless society. i.e. when employers and employees eat on the same table and enjoy the same pleasures together, there will be no class divisions among employees. May be you are right. But then it might take an eternity for us to transform ourselves into a true classless society. Even in the Communist state that Lenin built, a new class of bureaucrats replaced the old bourgeouis.

Ideally we would like a classless society. Since such a society is almost impossible to create, we have to settle for a society that discriminates between people along economic lines, but not on the basis of religion, ethnicity or gender. If Warren Buffet refuses to eat on the same table with a pauper, society may grudgingly accept it. But if he refuses to eat on the same table because the pauper is a Jew, or Black, or a woman... then this would be unacceptable. Discrimination along racial, gender or religious lines is unacceptable, because race, gender and religion are (relatively) permanent and beyond a person`s control.

If you are poor, you can work/educate yourself/wait for luck to smile on you... It may be difficult, but it is atleast possible for you to get richer through a host of legal/illegal means. Thus, in a lifetime or so... you may be able to jump across class divisions and ultimately enhance your social status. But if social status depends on your gender, religion or race... you are doomed. It is painful (if not impossible) for someone to change his/her religion, race or gender... just to gain social acceptance.

IMHO, it would be far more practical to attack illiteracy, prejudice and racism through education in stratified society, than through the creation of a classless society (which would take eternally longer).

Nevertheless, you have a point.

yogiraj # 82

The Indian issues that you mentioned in your post are not make or break issues. You have your basics well sorted out:

* A working constitution & a stable political system.
* A clear national secular idealogy.
* An effective judiciary.

In my opinion, the major issue is the rise of religious fanaticism in India. If not properly checked at this preliminary stage, this can greatly damage the national fabric of the society. And in fact destroy the very fundamental principle that India stands for.

Next is not an issue but a suggestion. India can greatly enhance its prestige and influence in the world if it compromises a little and resolves its issues with its small neighbours to their satisfaction. It is a big country and clearly most powerful - but need not have a matching ego. As some American President said ``Carry a big stick but speak softly``. Issues with the neighbours are minor - like not exploiting the land-locked situation of Nepal, letting Bangla Desh have some water and so on. A bit of humility could go a long way.

Here I am not meaning the India-Pakistan conflict because that is a subject by itself - and in my opnion both parties are to be blamed.

PS: There can be other ways to address the problems of the local areas... like Local government... but we need to break free from the hold of the `Biradari System`.... hence why i propose #7

Razzz,

That is interesting point you make. The reason I don`t stand for judicial review is because the Judicial Review is essentially an infringement of the right of the legislature to make laws... yes Judicial review is necessary but only to safeguard and protect the essential rights of the citizens of Pakistan..

#7 and #9 can work in both a parliamentary form and a presidential form.

-Manto

hisexcellency,

i know how you can solve this problem ......... why don`t you invite all five servants to eat with you and your family at the dining table ?.......... is that possible? ............ by the way do your servants eat the same food as your family or do they have a ``special`` menu?

........ see? ... the answer is quite simple.....

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#78 by yogiraj

I just answered you. You just didn`t like the answer. But the answer is still correct.

You don`t need a Ph.D. or be a know-it-all to understand this. It is quite self-evident. Without literacy, you may still be able to become a democracy in name. But to become a democracy in letter and spirit, you absolutely need an educated electorate. Democracy is not just a form of government, it is a mindset.

There are five servants in my home in Lahore. All of them are illiterate. One is Christian and one is Muslim who belongs to the Kumhaar caste. (In stratified rural society, people`s profession become their caste. A doodhwala`s son will also become a doodhwala. In this rural hierarchy, Kumhaar is the lowest caste. )

At lunch time, the 3 illiterate Muslim servants eat in the balcony. The Kumhaar Muslim cannot sit with them and eat. The Kumhaar Muslim eats in the servant quarter but does not let the Christian eat with him. The Christian eats alone in the drive way.

My father has tried many times to stop this racist practice. Even the maulvi who taught me the Quran, lectured the 5 servants that such racism/caste system was disallowed in Islam. Yet the servants hold on to their vulgar racism. In their opinion, my servants believe that are following conventional wisdom that has passed down to them from earlier generations.

Is conventional wisdom always correct? Without education, these servants can neither understand the egalitarian message of Islam nor learn to respect other faiths. Their ignorance prevents them from becoming model citizens and model democrats. If people hate each other because of religion, opposing points of view or caste, they can never become a democracy. Without egalitarianism, democracy simply becomes ``tyranny of the majority``.

As Hobbes rightly said, man is essentially ``brutish, solitary and cruel`` in the state of nature. Civil society can only be formed when this brute learns to ``cooperate, tolerate, accomodate and interact with others``. Education facilitates this to a great extent.

Razzz (#74):

The confusion about Ahmadis is the doing of the mullahs … the blind leaders of a lost ummah.

It is worth noting that “Muslim” is the term granted to believers by Allah Almighty … and mullahs have no business labeling others as non-Muslims. This applies not only to Ahmadis … but also to countless inter-sectarian fatwas of kuffr issued by the mullahs. Secondly, confusion arises from the fact that … Ahamdis believe in the kalima and the Quran … and strive to live their lives by the principles outlined in Quran and practiced by the Prophet of Islam. They pray five times a day, give zakaat, fast during the month of Ramazan, perform Hajj if circumstances permit, and recite and study Quran like Muslims are supposed to do. It is therefore absurd for mullahs to declare Ahmadis as non-Muslims.

Differences in certain matters exist between Ahmadis and other Muslims … since Ahmadis believe in continuation of prophethood to guide people according to principles of Quran, physical death of Prophet Issa, and that “miracles” of prophets, if correctly understood, do not violate any laws of nature.

It is this interpretation of Islam … that Ahmadis base on Quran and ahadith … that has resulted in mullahs declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims. If one ignores the fatwa of the mullahs … the picture becomes clear … in that Ahmadis are Muslims … with an understanding of Islam that is different from that of other Muslims.

#73 by harimau

In my post (#30), I wrote:
++
In the end, a combination of independent courts, educated electorate and investigative journalism prevented a dastardly politician from beating the Presidential system to become all powerful.
++

Essentially education is just one of the prerequisites for mature democracy. Independent Press and independent courts are also essential to keep an educated rogue majority in check. Hitler was aware of this. A study of early years of Hitler`s reign (i.e. 1934-38), reveals that Hitler systematically undermined the courts and Press through ordinances, Gestapo, censorship laws, Goebbels` propaganda tactics and false ``treason`` charges against journalists.

I find it worrisome that hate mongers like Jay and P-mishra2 have been put in the same league as sane and reasonable people like Dost Mittar, Stuka and rsidhar.

``#76 by nazarhayatkhan on August 19, 2003 8:20am PT

Dost-mitter # 66 - rsridhar, Stuka, Jay, Pmishra2

I am amazed by the clarity of understanding and knowledge of understanding of Pakistani issues by you, Stuka, rsridhar, Pmishra2 and jay. Not many Pakistani journalists, at least in Urdue Press, are so knowledgable and clear headed.

I wish more Indian issues were also discussed on Chowk for the benefit of all. ``

Nazar.. Are you ready? (or angry? I have no clarity on Pakistany issues). This will become an Indian site though:)

There are three issues where we failed big time in my opinion ... (Of cource there must be much much more) and NO it is not Roti, Kapada and Makan.

1. Utter and dismal record to understand and take action upon population control.
2. Dismal record to come out of licence raj, when it was no more required.
3. Not able to unite all and sundry together, send a clear message we live, sink together.

All Indians will (have to) accept it as a failure. We do not blame others. Our problem. Our failures. We must work on it.

More than ready discuss it further.

Yogiraj Patil

Dost Mittar:

``Indian Parliament, I stopped taking too much interest in that theatre of the absurd long ago.``

Good enough. But do pay attention to parliamentary committees. People look at Parliament and they get disgusted. But that is theatrics for mass consumption.

Outside the limelight, it is Parliamentary Commitees which also include members of the opposition that actually have been writing legislation in the past 10 years or so. Post Narasimha Rao phenomenon. The disinvestment of PSUs, liberalization of telecom etc has all taken place outside the glare. Regardless of what one might see in Parliament, the Iindian political class by and large has a consensus on what to do.

faisaluno#68
You and I are saying the same thing in a different way.

Re. Indian Parliament, I stopped taking too much interest in that theatre of the absurd long ago. I find it hard to believe that Indira Gandhi was used by the CIA although both were capable of indulging in the most unethical behaviour. The reason for my doubt is that, unless it happened in the first two years of her rule, she was never in the good books of the Americans, first for opposing them vehemently in the war on Vietnam after eating the `rotis` begged from them, and then for openly alligning herself with the soviets on most issues.

nazar saheb:
Thanks for your over-generous compliment (even though it put me in the same category as that thorough inspector of Pakistani newspapers, Jay:-))

#70 by rsridhar

You make an interesting observation. Yes, it is true that democracy has never been given a chance in Pakistan. But the blame for this does not lie at the military`s door alone. Pakistani politicians themselves did not give democracy a chance while in power. It is a paradox that every elected Prime Minister refused to let the Judiciary, Press, State Bank, Election Commission and State-owned banks/enterprises do their job.

Scratch any Pakistani prime minister (or PM aspirant) and you will find a dictator beneath the skin. Here is how the politicians and Army choreograph their politics:

3 Months Earlier
Politicians run an grandiose election campaign. No expense is spared. No spending limits are observed. Lofty promises and catchy slogans are packaged and delivered during a 3-month campaign. Then finally, truckloads of voters are whisked to the polling booth.

Next month
Politician gets elected. Now the dash for ministries and Prime Ministership starts. Party coiffers are again opened to buy loyalties and form a coalition government. So far so good. The people are happy that their elected leader is getting ready to deliver them from their misery.

Next Six months
Elected PM addresses the public on PTV several times; economic/foreign/trade policies are outlined. All pending cases against the PM are dropped; the Press is muzzled. All important government functionaries are replaced with loyalists (loyalty is the only qualification necessary). The PM`s right hand man takes over Finance Ministry. The next in line takes over Interior/Home, Foreign, Commerce, Energy ministeries etc. Hand-picked bureaucrats who can be trusted in shady deals are appointed as Federal/Provincial secretaries in these ministries.

One year later
Government`s spin doctors are busy putting gloss on the economic performance on first anniversary. Bad news is blamed on previous government. Rest is either censored or depicted in positive light. The PM and his team is busy signing new contracts (and receiving kickbacks). But nothing really changes for the common man.

Two years later
Opposition is being hounded. Judges have already been coopted. The Chief Justice ensures that all difficult (i.e. honest) judges are removed from cases involving the PM (or his cronies). The first financial scam hits the newstands. Press is under fire for ``being anti-Pakistan``. Two or three journalists are thrashed as a warning shot to others. The common man is exasperated: Where did the jobs go? Where did the small loans go? Why are prices still rising? When will police stop tormenting him on a daily basis?

Three years later
Having silenced the Press and Judiciary, the elected PM is in full swing. Corruption, inefficiency, nepotism and heavy-handedness towards the opposition define the ``democratic`` character of this popularly elected government. Spin doctors are working day and night to present all economic policies as ground-breaking. But there is still no relief for the common man. No jobs. Food shortages. Back breaking inflation. And to top it all, the PM just bought a new mansion. The common man is at breaking point.

The Army starts polishing its boots and berets. Meetings between Army Chief and opposition politicians become more frequent. The PM gets nervous. The Army Chief is snubbed for getting too political. Army Chief tells PM to clean up his act and behave like a true democrat. The PM gets more offended. Power struggle between PM and Army begins.
The common man is very angry.

D-Day
Army intervenes. The President (or Army Chief) takes over. The PM, cabinet and Parliament are wrapped up. The PM`s ``dirty dozen`` are arrested for corruption. The people come out dancing in the streets. Sweets are distributed across the nation. Prayers are offered in every mosque to thank Allah for good riddance... and a brighter future. International community watches in awe and bewilderment. How can a nation rejoice when its elected goverment is dismissed? Perhaps the Pakistanis don`t want democracy, they conclude.

Next Day
Army Chief (or President) addresses the nation on PTV. Jobs, security, justice, housing, end to nepotism and genuine democracy are promised. President nominates administrators for provinces and ministries. So far so good.

Three years later
Common man is again at breaking point. The President has muzzled the Press, coopted the Judiciary, appointed cronies in every ministry, hounded the opposition, presented economic failure are success... But there are still no jobs.

The politicians start polishing their shoes and sherwanis. Meetings between various opposition factions become more frequent. The President gets nervous. Opposition leader is snubbed for getting to ``unpatriotic``. Opposition leader tells the President/General to clean up his act and behave like a true patriot. The President/General gets more offended. Power struggle between Army and Opposition begins.

The musical chairs of politics continue. The common man stops listening to the music.

``#47 by yogiraj

The conventional wisdom of your doodhwala colors his individual psychology. People who don`t go to college, are not stupid individuals. However, it is now an established observation of Social Psychology that mob/collective psychology is quite different from individual psychology. ``

Mumbo Jumbo... And who are you, Know-it-all?

Education is not school or ...

My doodhwalla has morals in built. The guy does not seem prove your theory anyway. Is that what the grudge is?. Does it give you a complex?? He does not need school to educate either his morals or maths. And yes, he will vote, and decide. While you and your ilks will pillage the less or no educated (like my Doodhwala in your world), and then rape.

Let me ask you again, what is your definition of democracy. What is your definition of education and educated.

Not very hopeful for getting answers. You people are known to run away when pinned down.


Yogiraj Patil

Nazar

Thankyou.. I concur with your opinion as I mostly do. I think more than the question of parliamentary democracy or presidential democracy in Pakistan ... I wish some debate would also happen on points 7, 8, 9 ... For long now I have grappled with the question of how we can separate democracy from the feudals..

Whether Parliamentary democracy or Presidential, with Army staying out, I believe that a list system of political representation and a completely independent judiciary with a judicial council choosing judges instead of the Government ... Pakistan`s democracy should take off...