Telic Chowk: A Personal Odyssey

Naqshbandi,

Last time we exchanged notes … I challenged you to substantiate lies that you spoke about Mirza Sahib. Note that your cousin Urstruly looked into those allegations … and admitted that they were not true. You could not take up this challenge … and instead changed your story. Instead of being forthright and honest, you chose to be slippery and dodgy.

Disgusted by your chicanery, I likened you and your ullema to gutter cockroaches and worse. It sounded harsh … but still rings true.

If you have any civility … you’d admit that you bungled up. Telling me not to speak to you does not solve this problem. Once you accept your mistake, I’ll review your request of not speaking to you. Deal?

sattar2 -- please don`t even talk to me. ever.

re: #140 by Mantolives
Thanks for the post.
Yes, indeed. Pak needs a legal system that is strong enough to defend individual rights of its citizens and also keep fundametalist elements at bay. There is nothing wrong in people like Naqshbandi ranting about the greatness of Holy Qoran or any other scripture in public or private as long as they do not cause any harm. So, the fundamental rights must have some caveats built into them and legal framework should be strong. I hope to God Pak does have this. Sooner the better.
Sridhar

re:#138 by AlephNull
Thanks for the info. I know the movie had Spencer Tracy in it. As well as Marlyn Dietrich (remember Witness to Prosecution?).
Sridhar

Naqshbandi Sahib ...

While you parrot your belief in the whole of Quran ... lets`s not forget the idea of abrogating Quranic verses proposed by your own mullahs. It seems that they are ready with the revised edition of Quran ... and are waiting for the right opportunity.

Also ... let`s not forget the position of your mullahs ... that of death for adultery and apostasy etc. ... which runs counter to Quranic injunctions. Perhaps it is these injunctions that your mullah finds loathsome ... and is ready to overwrite with questionable, twisted ahadith. Introductory comments from Maudoodi will make it compulsory for believing men to regularly beat up their wives between isha and traveeh, accept mutah as a valid form of convenient sex with strangers, and that sending biryani and haleem to the local imam on daily basis will guarantee a momin a few extra virgins in the hereafter.

Do check with your local imam when is the 2nd version of the Quran due. I think gabriel no longer makes appearances ... but then again ... your mullah may find a hadith to make an exception here as well ...

manto: the qur`an itself addresses people like you who `believe in only those parts of the book they agree with`:-

Allah says:-

...Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do. (Quran: 2:85)

manto:

I am not trying to pass a fatwa or anything but what you wrote in #154 is clear and manifest kufr as it means you are not believing in the whole Qur`an.

The point is that while you can imbibe that is good from the Quran if you want since it is a fascinating read for some, nothing should stop us from rejecting all that is not in harmony with Modern human values....

-Manto

The Grand Inquisitor Hamidim Inquires: ``...... if you are really not that hung up on the book then what are you arguing with manto and naqshbandi about? ``

With manto: I was trying NOT to be dragged into a religious discussion.
With naqsh: There wasnt much any argument. I was just inquiring into the health and well-being of the Thousand and One Deceased Arab Men.

You also say: ``your approach is not a whole lot different than mine ``

It is. But like I said, enough of this religious discussion for a while. Meanwhile your kid is reading the Quran in Arabic from a mullah, and mine is not (having been given the choice to read it as and when she wishes, and in a language she can understand). (Sorry to drag the kids back into the discussion).

Since this board has taken the turn to be a culture and religion board:

Scout: I agree with the language bit, rather than forcing a language onto kids that they can`t use, ABCD kids should be taught a little of the language their parents speak - this will connect them to their culture much more than being forced to go to a school to learn something completely foreign.

I believe children learn about the culture and religion from their parents, whether the parents like it or not, they`ll have to answer their kids questions - and improvise - look within themselves for certain answers, seek help etc.

Maybe instead of Quran schools for kids there should be group meetings for like minded parents - you know moderates on one side and traditionalists on the other or something like that.

hamidm

... temporal`s poetry is a lot better ...

la-haul-e-wala...or as a fellow curmudgeon used to say...astaghfirallah!

...as i said somewhere...there is a leak...;)

Dost-mittar:

Thanks for the clarification. Now that you mention, I did notice very ornate
photos of the Gurus and the Golden Temple this friend`s parents house - much more
so than in her own apartment. They are probably in their late 60`s/early 70`s, and
originally from West Punjab.

I am sorry that this jaagran disease is spreading to Punjabis as well. Watch any
Zee tele-serial for a couple of episodes, and there are fawning references to these
events and other random god-men/women. Couldn`t we find better ways to regress ?

plats8:
``But among the various pictures of gods and goddesses they have displayed in their
various rooms, there is also a large photo of Harminder sahib and the various Sikh
gurus. I`m curious if this sort of syncretic worship is a common thing for Punjabi
hindus.``
Yes, it is, though less so among the younger generation. The older Hindus tended to visit gurudwaras more often than mandirs, but the situation is now changing with Hindus more likely to have Jaagrans than Gurbaani paath.

To a lesser extent, older sikhs also had this multiple attachment. Maharaja Ranjit Singh`s priest was a Hindu brahmin and every royal activity was done according to Mahurat by him and usually a Hindu holy day, such as Dussehra, was picked for launching important initiatives.

This is now mostly history. The modern sikh prefers to define himself in a more exclusive, almost `not hindu` terms, with sometimes most unfortunate results. On the second story of the Golden temple were old wall paintings with the Sikh gurus and Hindu avatars, Ram and Krishna. Recently, in the name of renovation, the paintings of the Hindu gods were whitewashed, thus losing some priceless treasures of the Sikh art.


(Digression) The performance by Rajendra Kandalgaonkar took place as scheduled despite the electricity problem. The city hall booked for the concert was cancelled out because of the uncertainty of the revolving power outages and the event was shifted at the last minute to someone`s basement. It did lend an intimacy to the concert not possible in a regular hall. He proved to be quite accomplished, especially enjoyable was his rendering of Shudh Kalyan and Madhu Kauns.

hamidm #139

A friend of my wife is trying to inculcate ``Indian`` values in her 4 year old daughter
and keeps coercing her to greet people with a ``Jai Sri Krishna`` instead of Hi. I think
they are negotiating to settle for Sat Sri Akal, finally.

By the way, there`s a standing invitation for you to visit the Bay area (if you don`t
live here already, of couse).

Dost-mittar,

A question for you. This friend that I mention is a Punjabi Hindu, as is her husband.
But among the various pictures of gods and goddesses they have displayed in their
various rooms, there is also a large photo of Harminder sahib and the various Sikh
gurus. I`m curious if this sort of syncretic worship is a common thing for Punjabi
hindus.

tahmed,

...... thanks for the clarification - if you treat the koran as just another ``fascinating`` book and don`t regard it is the infallible word of god or try to live your life according to its injunctions, you are okay and your approach is not a whole lot different than mine ............ although i must admit i don`t find the koran to be that fascinating and quite tedious to read - temporal`s poetry is a lot better ..............

...... if you are really not that hung up on the book then what are you arguing with manto and naqshbandi about?

hamidm2 #145 I dont think I am obsessed by the Quran - all I am saying is that I find it a fascinating book to read.

This month, I also read another fascinating book to read ``Transducing the Genome``. I guess that makes me a Bioinformatics-Quran-Obsessed-Nut.

And sadly, I must admit to having read a book about the Bataan death march some time back. So I must admit to being a Bataanic-Bioinformatics-Quran-Obsessed-Nut.

And while we are at it, I might as well confess to having read The Lord of the Rings too. That puts me totally beyond the pale of civilized society I guess.

I feel better now, having confessed to my sins. May the Great Bishop Hamidm have mercy on my soul. May Naqshbandi of a Thousand and One Dead Arabs spend long nights in the graveyard praying for my salvation.