Telic Chowk: A Personal Odyssey

tahmed,

............. please don`t drag my kid into this - it is all mrs hamidm`s fault ......... as i pointed out, those of us who can`t take multilple wives (and concubines) as instructed by the koran, have to do what our wives want us to do or else we don`t get any biryani ...........i know, man does not live by biryani alone and principles are more important and all that, but what can i say, i rate biryani right up there ........... personally, i don`t care if my kid reads the koran or not - as a kid i ``finished`` it a couple of times in arabic and only when i read it as an adult in english did i realize what a terrible thing i had been exposed to and decided to take corrective action ........... so as long as my child does not understand what she is reading i think she is quite safe ................. my older one who is headed off to college in a year or so hasn`t touched the book in years so i feel we are okay ...... but thanks for your concern anyway..............

....... but seriously, what drives me nuts is your obsession with the koran which is worse than naqshbandi`s obsession with the sunnah ...... at least the sunnah has some historical basis wheras the koran could be a figment of someone`s imagination ................

hamidm2 #139 Let`s see now:
(a) You dont think the Quran is worthwhile reading, I think it is. BUT

(b) Your kid continues to be taught the Quran by a maulvi. My kid has rejected the maulvi, and I as the parent have respected her logic and wishes. She now has the choice of reading the Quran out of her own free will as and when she wishes.

(c) You think the Quran stinks, and anyone who thinks otherwise suffers from some ``virulent form of the disease``. I think the Quran is a fascinating book to read ( and thus suffer from some disease, per your view). However, if someone does not read the Quran, that is fine (as I have stated) since I dont consider the Quran to be the only source of learning how to be a good human being.

Based on the above, it seems to be you have some serious problems to grapple with - your kid does things (read the Quran from the maulvi) that you dont think she should but your wife things she should. You think anyone who differs from your point of view has a disease of some kind (which is the same mindset as that of a maulvi).

Congratulations: you just proved that bigots come in many forms, and religious bigots are only one such form.

The movie was called `Inherit the wind`

-Manto

sridhar...any argument against the Bible cannot be used analogously against the Qur`an Sharif because the Qur`an is free from any errors/contradictions as it has been protected from corruption by Allah Himself.

I won`t apologize for anything :P

Rsidhar...

Yes!! By joe!!!

I think the movie was called Blasphemy but I might be wrong... the end of the pompous biblical authority was very sad... I sincerely hope Naqshbandi doesn`t go down that way.. I hope however that a strong legal system can do for Pakistan what the court system did for that conservative christian state. It can overcome their religiousity and reform them for the new age... I think the verdict of $100 fine was hilarious. It really took the wind out of the religio-fanatics.

But first we need a legal system that works! In Pakistan that is...

-Manto

dost-mittar,

......... i agree with you - exposing a child to any religion can be dangerous as they can catch a virulent form of the disease and end up like naqshbandi or tahmed .........if I had my druthers maulvi sahib, and his god, wouldn’t dare cross my threshold ...........but mrs hamidm disagrees and since I don’t have a backup wife or concubine I have to do her bidding ............ at times like this I begin to see the wisdom of verses like 4:34!

.......... as for my kids not liking Indians, it is one of the many things I say from time to time just to make a point which are quite untrue and don’t have any foundation in fact ............ as a matter of fact almost half my older daughter’s friends are indians (the other half are jewish or presbyterian ) and we always keep a box of veggie-burgers in the freezer in case one of them goes nuts and becomes a vegetarian ........... we had an episode last year when a perfectly sane girl came back from India and insisted on worshiping the hamburger instead of eating it! ............ however, I am glad to report that, alhamdolillah, she is cured and back to normal ........... most of the horrible hindoos I know seem to be quite casual in their approach to religion – no statues of monstrous looking gods in the foyer and no agarbatis to make you dizzy (although the stench of heeng is not any better) .......... this is in remarkable contrast to all the muslims I know who have at least one picture of the kaaba on the wall and a silly clock that wails like a banshee five times a day........... although I must say I have run into some rather unlikable Brahmin types who have silly little temples in their basement and force their kids to do poojah every day ................

............. but going back to your point of exposing kids to religion, I must admit that there is always the danger that at some point, when they are looking for an identity or gain forty pounds and can’t fit into their hip-huggers, they might revert to being fanatics like that kid in the movie “my son”................. i see that happening all the time – perfectly good kids who go to college, join the msa, don the hijab and waste their time protesting the occupation and confronting equally stupid jewish kids with beanies and strange hair............ unfortunately, at least in America, you almost have to have a religion of some kind – everyone has one and being an atheist or agnostic is really too much trouble...........you have to really give it a lot of thought before you can declare yourself an atheist, it is much easier being a mindless catholic, muslim, hindoo or jew instead of having to explain why you don’t believe in god – the discussion can go on for ever .......... it is much easier to say, “yes I believe in allah who was christ’s father and muhammad is his prophet ”, and go back to drinking beer with bubba ............the problem starts when you really start believing in your religion .................

#135 rsridhar

The movie you saw was probably a film version of the play `Inherit the Wind` which is somewhat loosely based on the notorious 1925 Scopes Trial (or `Monkey Trial`) in Dayton, Tennessee. The pompous prosecutorial windbag in the historical case was William Jennings Bryan, a famous orator, former Secretary of State and a repeat candidate for President of the US; the defense was headed by the famous socialist lawyer and agnostic Clarence Darrow.

re:#116 by Naqshbandi
I saw a movie sometime ago in the Turner Movie Classics Channel. I do not recall the name but it was about religion versus science. One schoolteacher is arrested because he taught Darwin`s theory of evolution in a school in Nebraska (must have happened at least 80 years ago). Devout christians were up in arms, protesting his teachings. He is jailed and is defended by an upright lawyer who believes only in Science and its evidence. He actually calls the prosecutor (who is also a well known authority on the Bible) as a witness and tears his argument about infallibility of Biblical teachings to shreds. The prosecutor pompously remarks that God created the world at 9 am on 4004 BC on a Friday! The defending lawyer shows an ancient piece of rock that had fossils embedded in it dating back to millions of years.
You remind me of that prosecutor, the biblical authority. You, like him, are a pompous A$$.
Sridhar

getting maulvis to teach ABCD kids how to read the Quran is the rage these days, stemming from some kind of parental guilt and obligation. i don`t think anything good is achieved by it. what good is learning a language you don`t understand?

ABCD kids need to be taught urdu more than they need to be taught ARabic.

Mantolives #133 I accept your apologies, even though they seem qualified with references to my humor having the same affect as abuse. To be realistic, I cannot promise that I shall stay away from humor in the course of chowk interactions, so perhaps the best thing is not to have much interaction with me if you find my ``pathetic humor`` offensive.

As for whether or not the Quran establishes male chauvinism, I already answered this question once (see my post #89 below). You may agree or disagree with what I wrote, or expand further on it. However, you have merely ignored what I wrote and that is why you come back with the same question. This does not indicate much respect for the time I took trying to give a thoughtful answer to your question. In any case, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, I have already said all I want to say about religion on chowk, and dont wish to start another religious discussion to go over things I have written before on chowk. Thanks for the interaction, sorry for any hurt feelings due to my humor.

tahmed,

By the way ... very smart that child of yours... Hopefuly she will teach her father a thing or two... about the usage of the left side of the brain.


-Manto

I consider your pathetic attempts to humor as abuse... anyway I apologize for suggesting you abused me.. obviously you are much more of a gentleman to utter abusive language.. yet the effect was same.


``My problem comes when people (extremists of the jamaatiya kind or of the anti-Islam kind) start representing as Islam things that go counter to the substance of the Quranic teachings``

This brings us back to the original debate... doesn`t Quran establish male chauvinism? Doesn`t it give men the right to beat their wives black and blue? If you think it doesn`t then to use temporal`s analogy, you haven`t even realized that there is a leak in the pipe.

Quran should be read as a fascinating historical document, time specific and momentous yet irrelevant to modern day.. or parts of it anyway.

-Manto

hamidm2 #128 I have no problem with someone not reading the Quran. After all, the substantive things in the Quran (i.e. values) would already have been taught to anyone going to a good kindergarten school or raised in a good home (i.e. dont lie or steal, use your mind, dont bully weaker people, respect all communities and beliefs, and so forth). So, the Quran is not the only source for building character.

My problem comes when people (extremists of the jamaatiya kind or of the anti-Islam kind) start representing as Islam things that go counter to the substance of the Quranic teachings. There is a 180 degree difference between the jamaatiya chauvinism and Quranic teachings. And that has generally been the context in which I have been referring to the Quran on chowk. That is to keep the record straight, to expose the hollowness of muslim chauvinists.

My own child rebelled and refused to attend Sunday school saying it made no sense to read a book without understanding it. Since the logic was hard to beat, my wife and I agreed on the condition that she would read the Quran in English on her own. I am not pushing her to read the book, although one day I hope she will do so by choice. This is not because reading the Quran is necessary to make her a good person or a good muslim (we have already done our part by focussing on values when raising kids), but because the Quran is (a) a fascinating book to read imho, and (b) provides a good yardstick with which to expose the hollowness of muslim chauvinists, maudoodiites and other shady characters who go around talking about Islam.

Mantolives #130 While it is nice of you to think of saluting me, I think an apology for your lying about my having inflicted a ``barrage of abuse`` on you would be more appropriate.

tahmed,

The left side of my brain processes information in the following way:

Info bit :1) You believe Quran is a universal code with universal values.

Info bit :2) Quran has 4:34 and 2:282 .... it is a fact.

Conclusion: Hence the logical conclusion is that you believe in 4:34 and 2:282

---

If indeed for some contradictory human reason that is not your position, I salute you. Like I said I don`t believe in Quran to be a source of morality for all times. I can care less what you believe in, but I think coming to a website just to pick on people for their beliefs is rather lame.


-Manto