LUMS -- Lahore University of mis-Management Sciences

`` firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make``

Hey Lalib,
i dunno whether i know u but just a small question........your statement appears to imply that anyone and everyone who goes to Alevels is part of the elite and anyone and everyone who does his A levels is bound to be haughty and arrogant..........interesting......about half the people who do their A levels tend to go abroad......does that mean that American universities are full of Arrogant Pakis :)........and i guess some A Levels students also go to IBA and CBM etc ....that probably exonerates LUMS graduates from the allegation of being arrogant since according to your argument, arrogance is then prevalent across all educational institutions in Pakistan.

All i can say is gimme a break yaar.........sometimes i wish that us Pakistanis were arrogant and proud enough to get our country out of the mess we currently are in due to the continual decadence in our society.

And what exactly is your definition of an elite school..........the current imbalance in fee structures probably implies that all schools and universities, including LUMS are elitist.......using that argument what does that make you also........a product of an elitist university eh :):)

My friend, Lalib, Its time we let the horses free and let them venture onto their own stables according to their own desires :):)

Adios

rozy, i think you rock..everyone else fades away :P

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

I completely agree.......everyone must appreciate criticism and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I also agree i should not have written that undeniably LUMS Is amongst the top universities in the world....i think i meant top universities in Asia............i hope this was not mistaken as arrogance...i guess `world` was written in the heat of the moment instead of `Asia`.

I am the first to admit that LUMS has its flaws and thats what i wrote in my earlier posting also. However, it is my opinion(with which of course anyone can differ) that the positives given the current educational structure in Pakistan by far outweigh the negatives.

Also, i feel that if you have not been to LUMS and have not studied at LUMS, jumping to conclusions about the standard of education there is a bit unfair. Once u have been through the LUMS experience, only then do you realize what a blessing the years spent over there are.

Also, with regard to whether Lums graduates are arrogant etc, i feel that too you cannot generalize because that is a trait that can vary from person to person and from institution to institution. People say the same about Aitchison graduates and about Karachi Grammar graduates but one has to look at that on a specific basis rather than on a general level.


Anyways, Zird if you are from BSC 99, email me at juxtapose99@hotmail.com

Adios

Sobia, do you think LUMS students are arrogant?

well said bilal. over the past few years, most lums alumni have noticed a downward trend in quality. quality of students, quality of faculty and quality of services provided. i`d like to believe that this is temporary, an effect that can be squarely pegged to the transition from a fledgling college to a proper university ... but i don`t know how true it is. i`m hoping though.

i can be cynical and argue that from what we`ve seen of most things in pakistan, quality is a temporary phenomenon. in that light, lums built up its rep and is now earning dividends. and the more the students, the greater the profit.
(let`s make note of one thing here. its not the b.sc. program at lums that ranks #23 in asia, its the mba program. those who`ve been at lums will agree that these are effectively two separate instituions with minimal interaction. and its not the mba faculty or students that have faced this downward trend in quality. lums is still very selective about who it takes into the mba, the faculty is still very well educated, and i presume the mba`s still have their own separate computer labs, hostels etc. so in that light, perhaps the b.sc batches were simply a money-making venture to finance the coveted and `in the red` mba program. perhaps.)

but like tayyab, i`d also like to point a few good things out about the place. i won;t go as far as to say that we`re better than most uni`s in amreeka. although many lums students firmly believe that our course load is a lot tougher (for many, tougher=better), especially due to the quarter system, it`s not the sort of statement you can make with a straight face. but, yes, we get an excellent education that is incomparable in pakistan and other developing countries. the course is diverse, the system is competitive (highly grade-oriented. not always a good thing i admit), there is ample focus on real world issues (development, politics, international relations etc.), emphasis on the arts (not enough but moreso than other colleges in paksitan barring nca and indus), and there is a high rate of college acceptance amongst top-tier foreign unis. all of my friends have entered respectable, if not kickass, universities for their masters or phds. (respectable. top 25. kickass. top 5. in the particular field of study).

but what is the best part of lums is its tolerance for opposing opinion. seriously, you can blaspheme in writing and get away with it. some of you, those in the west, may find this funny but thats the sort of stuff you get lynched for in this country. and remember, half of lums is mullah-controlled. its a great great deal, worth everyones respect. with this tolerance comes a degree of liberalism, which also is a good thing in this country, in these times.

as for the arrogance of lums students, alumni. well, i think theres one prime factor that accounts for this in the b.sc. program. i don;t think it applies for the mba though. firstly, most b/sc bachas, at least those that are vocal and make their presence felt, are from elite A level schools across pakistan. it wouldnt really matter where these general/ industrialist/bureaucrat`s kids went to for uni, they`d be haughty to a certain extent anywhere. of course, you can`t say this about everyone from these elite schools (hold your horses tayyab balagamwala;)) but its an argument that you can make ... somewhat. don`t put alllll the blame on lums. sprinkle some of it across the country.

lums is a great place. it offers a great education. there may be lapse in high quality standards, but it`s hopefully only temporary. i don;t think its the level of students thats falling by that much (after all in percentage terms lums lums accepts fewer applicants than it did in 97 when i got in. i refuse to believe that the extra number of applicants are all below par), its the quality of faculty and services provided. and both these things can be rectified. like tayyab, i`d tell you to have some patience. bide your time. the top echelons of lums faculty are generally sensible people, despite what you may think while you`re there. they don;t want to see a uni they created turn into a hollow shell either ... how else will they get their sabbatical at yale? ;)

Hey polly. `sup ma man? :P dint read much of wat u all rote here...terribly short attention span i guess...wat bilal rote is rite...conditions have gotten worse den dey were one year ago but den dat`s wat every1 always thinks bout things: they`r worse den dey used to b.
however, apart from the exceeding costs and the decline in hosel standards here, i believe lums is the best thing dat cud happen to Pakistani students...i mean where else cud u not study like crazy n still maintain a gpa above 3 easily...yes conditions r gradually getting worse but no need to go about shouting that the world is coming to an end...LUMS is not run by complete nincompoops u know...they prob realize where dey`r going wid it n wat they`r doin...so let`s leave the running of the univ to dem n just enjoy our stay in is place.
ciao.

If an institution like LUMS is giving so much to it`s students don`t you think that students too should bear with it and wait for new developments (regarding triple occupancy in hostels, new IT LABs construction / new PCs allocation in LABs, new hiring of faculty) ?

Technology is the most unreliable thing of the world... so is there any point to talk about it...? What do you think?

As far as educaton standard is concerned I don`t think so it is getting down. Faculty selection criteria in LUMS doesn`t let it happen...I hope. As far as these issues that you have addressed in your article are not affecting the education standard... everything is OK.

Faculty is not doing mis-management so they will teach simply ``management`` to students....I think.

You are also right because you have studied from such an institution (i guess). We as a nation have adopted the policy that ``ignore the positive things and point out the negative.`` Wait a while and see what developments are in progress at LUMS...

//RE: sobia thats the very problem kiddo..you havent said anything ..apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there...//

Huh????? WHAT are you talking about, dude? London? Who did what to me? I`m not getting your point.

//lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.//

Maybe it SHOULD start to matter what others think, that is precisely my point. What are you getting all worked up about? It`s funny you think i`m a complexed desi because you haven`t even bothered to define what that is. If you look at what I`ve written from the beginning, I have repeatedly said LUMS is a good school, I just don`t feel it can be compared to foreign universities, as a lot of LUMS faculty and students tend to do (and no, zird, this is not ``hearsay``, they DO compare and unnecessarily so, in my opinion). A lot of people who have interacted here have said let`s not compare LUMS to foreign unis and they`re right; let`s not, because LUMS is a local university that started out small, has grown and developed and is providing quality education. BUT...the quality has declined. If you`re not willing to accept that, that`s sad, because unless you accept a reality, you cannot work towards coming up with solutions to remedy the problem. I also said a lot of people from LUMS have attitude problems and I stand by it. I know most of you think that`s a ``gross generalization`` and if it is, I`m sorry. This is not my opinion after meeting ``ten`` people, it`s just something that I`ve seen over a period of time and which some of you interactors have reinforced. Anyhow, Hassan is right. It doesn`t really make a difference if LUMS students tend to be a little..shall we say...arrogant, because that`s probably the least of the university`s problems. Perhaps I did make a sweeping generalization and perhaps your reaction (though immature) was spontaneous, based on my rather caustic views. Learn to take a bit of criticism though. It comes with the territory, since you are a Luminite and are so grand and infallible! :-)

#145 by HassanShah

`` It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you. ``

Actually i noticed, a lot of other `non-lums` ppl (not u) also got a little personal on this thread - so its only fitting that they`re replied in kind. As for turning a blind-eye...thats what almost everyone including xyz have been doing - i think a lot of lums ppl have conceded some shortcomings or that there`s been a decline in the quality, but seriously, excuse me for breathing? cuz the onslaught continues.

anyway most of the ppl posting here, have been making sweeping generalisations - based on hearsay (i know someone who knows someone who said....) or two (or even ten) ppl they met from lums.

``I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...``

I think what Razz meant was that there is a weak correlation between GPA and SAT scores and obviously GPA is more of a measure of intelligence (i guess?). Although interestingly enough i`ve seen a few studies (statistical) that contend the opposite, that there is a fairly strong and positive relation, if not highly positively significant.

Uhm i agree with most of the stuff which Bilal has said.
I have spent a year at LUMs and am currently studying in a university in states.
After coming here i realize what a big blessing LUMS is for Pakistanies. I only left LUMs because they dont have the major that i was interested in. I still think they have the setup, to expand, i just hope that they sort out the problums that they are having at the moment.
And one thing more...if one wants to major in Economics or CS then i think LUMS is a better alternative then most of the university in states, unless of course one talks abt the ivy league universities.

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#144 by razzz

As I said earlier:

``You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.``

Please read things in their entirety before jumping in to respond.

*****************************************************

The rest of this has nothing to do with LUMS, but I think I must point out a few things that caught my eye:

``i graduated with an avg GPA ``

I find myself unable to follow your logic. It sounds to me as if you`re saying ``I`m fairly smart and since I graduated with an average GPA ...`` Any claim that relies on such subjective assessments of personal capability is bound to be flawed.

As I mentioned earlier, a 1370 in SAT I does not indicate how intelligent you are. Nor, for that matter, does it translate automatically to a place at the Ivies, Stanford and MIT. Unless you`re one of the wealthy few who can buy their way into college, or are eternally indebted to your parents for giving birth to you in the US, or have done something to distinguish yourself otherwise (read Olympic gold medal) I don`t think you can be quite so certain about having been admitted to those schools. Sadly, a national of the land of the pure, requiring financial aid, without any stupendous achievements (or connections) needs a lot to make a compelling case for admission. If you`re male, that doesn`t help much either. Having worked at the admissions office at college, I can vouch for all that. MAYBE you might have made it, but just flat out claims that you warrant a place on the basis of the stats you mentioned are a bit hard to digest. I guess perhaps we are talking about different places when we say ``good university``.

``it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think``

Personally, I don`t care much for ascertaining without any reasonable doubt whether people from LUMS are arrogant or not. There are other, more important issues to debate. However, I think one should at least be a tad more open to criticism. It`s perfectly valid to disagree completely, but name-calling and turning a blind eye to the beliefs of others does not behoove someone like you.

Re :
Every univ has its share of proud students and so do lums.........but i guess its not lums faults..........lums dznt teaches its students to be snooty...dz it. It just expects a lot from them and thats why lums students feel more accomplished then people who basically buy their degrees in USA. As for the continous objections about students with LOW SAT scores going to lums..........that should nt be given such a big weightage cz some of the student body which comes to lums do their FSC`s and matric rather then O and A levels and thus are not that adept at giving concept and comprehension based tests even though they might be as intelligent and talented as their counterparts. I got a score of 1370 in SAT I and similarly my SAT II scores were enough to get me into a good univ in USA........but in LUMS i graduated with an avg GPA ........so lets not delve into stupid facts and scenarios being put forward by people who are out of touch.


RE: sobia
thats the very problem kiddo............you havent said anything ..........apart from harping about stupid things like what diff grads do in london or did to you as well over there.......i guess thats where the anger stems from. As for your repeated negative opinions about LUMs.........lums grads get the JOBS, ADMISSIONS and EDUCATION they need.......so it doesnt really matter what complexed desis like u think.

cheers
raza

razz #135
``So i guess our indian friends need to stay quiet over issues
which they dont know about.``

I realise that it is very tempting to take pot-shots at each other,
but Indians have by and large stayed away from interacting in this
board. Have they not ? I`d assume that the reason is their lack of
information in this matter. So, who was that statement directed at ?

#141 by zird

You`re right about SAT scores being pathetically uncorrelated to intelligence. That holds true for O and A level results as well. However, my point was that students who have not done anything to distinguish themselves academically (in SATs, O/A levels, at school) are making it to LUMS these days fairly easily. That doesn`t sound like a positive development.

I guess you and I are talking of LUMS at different points of time. LUMS, when it started out, was fairly good. My complaints have primarily been regarding the downslide that`s been taking place of late. Rather than taking measures to arrest the decline, I think there`s way too much complacency going on. You develop a reputation by sustaining a high standard, not by achieving it and then letting things taper off.

# 136 HassanShah

``Please. Just take a look at the academic achievements of the people who`re entering LUMS these days. I know of more than a handful of people who had SAT scores in the 1100s, fairly ordinary O and A level results, were pretty close to the bottom of the class back in school and are now at LUMS. ``

Hmm yeah- actually i need to qualify my statements, i`m talking abt the lums i attended and i`m from the class of 99. Even till 2003, i`ve seen some fairly smart students - although since they`re taking a lot more students now, the overall quality of students may have declined. Although i do know that a lot more ppl : either those who`ve been rejected visa i.e. not by choice or those who don`t want to to go to US any long i.e. by choice, are going to lums - so maybe this yr the quality cld be better - than the 1100 SAT scores. Btw i don`t think SAT is a measure of intelligence, just like the GRE and GMAT aren`t, they`re just a measure of your test-taking abilities and there are surefire ways to beat those tests - which is a separate debate, but pls don`t judge quality of students, just by their SATs.

But u asked for numbers so here they are:

in my class of 100 graduating students

columbia law school
columbia - fin engineering
harvard
nyu -joint degree with bus school and sthg else
columbia bus school (admitted but didn`t go)
insead
cam
ox (3)
UT Austin
USC
Duke (2/3)
a couple went to some of the UC`s (not berkeley though)
lse (london)
warrick
georgia tech
sussex (2)
northwestern
dartmouth
jhu

So approximately 20 - (of 100) -(i`m not counting myself) thats 20 % and these are the ones i can recall. Oh and I have not counted that these ppl were admitted to equally decent places - but these are the ones they chose to go to. i know there are a couple of other ppl in CS that i`m definitely missing. `I think` these are terrific numbers (and i thikn all these places are pretty good - esp for the disciplines that these ppl went there for), given that another 7-8 ppl are working at Microsoft and then one guy is at accenture, another is doing actuaries and plenty working at mnc`s after their mba from lums as well .

In class of 2002 - I know there`s one person at Yale, 4 at Stanford, 1 went to berkeley, 6-7 are at oxford, and tons of others who i don`t know !

`` LUMS is not the equivalent of an Ivy league school, MIT, Stanford or Oxbridge. It`s such an utterly preposterous statement that I am absolutely astounded at the lack of temerity with which this ``fact`` is claimed. Shocking. ``

Ok I agree with that. But i think it is one of the best places in Pakistan (at least) to read for a degree and as u said: Insha Allah - it can be an even better place.