Fading Exclamations

Re. Tahmed’s #49: The [Washinton Post] article notes that this radicalization of certain elements in the indian muslim middle class is a reaction to the rise of hindutvaism in India, and particularly the Gujerat killings. The perpetrators of the Bombay bombings were clearly using the same rationalization that harimau and urstruly have done on chowk, and they were just as wrong…Not only is the rationalization of criminal acts intellectually absurd and morally abominable, but also stupid in a practical sense. Since all it engenders is an escalation of hatreds…”
Yes, it does do as you claim, but you should be too harsh when people exhibit behaviour demonstrating Newton’s Third Law. That may not be the highest of what mankind is capable of achieving, but it is hardly the epitome of evil. And it is not necessarily “rationalization” either, though it is easy to see it that way locked up in some ivory tower.
Re. Tahmed’s #37:But, nevertheless [the 3000 or so 9/11victims] were all heroes in a more profound sense of the world: because they were among the best and the brightest in the world - the people who strive to improve their own lives in ways that also lead to the improvement in lives for mankind at large, and for future generations.
Never mind more profound, do you honestly believe that working in the Twin Towers necessitated your being “among the brightest and best in the world”, or in that phony economic theory of self-interest automatically equals societal interest? Tahmed sahib, I hate to say this, but it seems like at least some of the accusations levelled against you by that Farangi-Kush character might contain a germ of truth.
I guess all the grievances of the Third World against the First World’s economic/trade policies have nothing to do with the kind of business generally conducted in the WTC.
And yes, Urstruly asks a very pertinent question: Are the est. 30,000 casualties of the Iraq “war of liberation” heroes? If so, how come the Central Command considers it “not [their] business to keep track of their losses”?
rgds,
PM

temp: (Am up to #49.) Good article, but, with all due respect, I think there is something rather perverse in pointing out the putative positives that might accrue within Islamia as a result of the 9/11 attacks. I mean, try consoling one of the victim’s families with such ‘good news.’
That said, I fully agree that there is no need for the entire ummah to suffer a guilt complex viz 9/11 or Bali. Yes, there might have been dancing on Palestinian streets, and ObL might have been hailed a hero in certain even educated circles in Pakistan... but that was more for his role as a figure taking on a perceived aggressor (shaped, admittedly, to some extent by the non-Muslimness of that power) than for his role as chief 911 terrorist. If memory serves, ObL and his followers and supporters alike initially denied complicity in the act. So there was hardly any question, initially, of people hailing him for taking 3,000 innocent lives. It always amuses me how folks can mock both the Muslim denial of Al-qaeda complicity (“the Jews did it” hypothesis) and deride Muslims, en masse, for supporting ObL as Chief 9/11 Architect. Doesn’t square!
I am sure that any introspection by Muslims and questioning of Islamic beliefs and doctrine can only do good for Islamia. Perhaps a renaissance is long due, though not one necessarily corresponding to that which occurred within Christendom. But this introspection need not be rooted in a tacit admission of Islam’s responsibility for 9/11. For one, that the killing of innocents for any cause is strictly prohibited in Islam should be reason enough to look elsewhere for answers. Applying the same ‘logic’ of causation, were we to cut through the rhetoric of ‘war of liberation’ (and if history were not to be written by the victors), we may as well hold Democracy and the Bill of Rights (or democratic nations??) responsible for the heinous acts of carpet bombing and the reduction of citizens to mere collateral damage not even worth keeping track of in the perverse calculus of War of Liberation.
As for those ridiculing you, temp, for suggesting the complicity of the FBI, CIA etc. in the 911 saga, well, I say let keep keep their blinders on. More honest folks are already asking troubling questions on Capitol Hill. Joe Viall’s website was up for over 20 months before Michael Meacher, William Rivers Pitt or William Bunch started asking these questions.
It beggars belief that, even assuming (incredibly!) that it was mere incompetence that was responsible for standard scramble and intercept procedures not being followed in four instances in the space of an hour, Atta Mohd. et al could have known enough about navigating jumbo jets but not expected this standard procedure to kick in, effectively bringing down the jets before they got anywhere near NYC.
The whole affair stinks bigtime, and there are obviously some folks around here who can’t handle the $hit.
More later….
Rgds,
PM

More on gifelte fish. who says that the only religious weirdos in the world are muslim religious weirdos?? ;-)

Word is made flesh as God reveals himself... as a fish

Edward Helmore New York
Sunday March 16, 2003
The Observer

An obscure Jewish sect in New York has been gripped in awe by what it believes to be a mystical visitation by a 20lb carp that was heard shouting in Hebrew, in what many Jews worldwide are hailing as a modern miracle.
Many of the 7,000-member Skver sect of Hasidim in New Square, 30 miles north of Manhattan, believe God has revealed himself in fish form.

According to two fish-cutters at the New Square Fish Market, the carp was about to be slaughtered and made into gefilte fish for Sabbath dinner when it suddenly began shouting apocalyptic warnings in Hebrew.

Many believe the carp was channelling the troubled soul of a revered community elder who recently died; others say it was God. The only witnesses to the mystical show were Zalmen Rosen, a 57-year-old Hasid with 11 children, and his co-worker, Luis Nivelo. They say that on 28 January at 4pm they were about to club the carp on the head when it began yelling.

Nivelo, a Gentile who does not understand Hebrew, was so shocked at the sight of a fish talking in any language that he fell over. He ran into the front of the store screaming: `It`s the Devil! The Devil is here!` Then the shop owner heard it shouting warnings and commands too.

`It said ``Tzaruch shemirah`` and ``Hasof bah``,` he told the New York Times, `which essentially means that everyone needs to account for themselves because the end is near.`

The animated carp commanded Rosen to pray and study the Torah. Rosen tried to kill the fish but injured himself. It was finally butchered by Nivelo and sold.

However, word spread far and wide and Nivelo complains he has been plagued by phone calls from as far away as London and Israel. The story has since been amplified by repetition and some now believe the fish`s outburst was a warning about the dangers of the impending war in Iraq.

Some say they fear the born-again President Bush believes he is preparing the world for the Second Coming of Christ, and war in Iraq is just the opening salvo in the battle of Armageddon.

Local resident Abraham Spitz said: `Two men do not dream the same dream. It is very rare that God reminds people he exists in this modern world. But when he does, you cannot ignore it.`

Others in New Square discount the apocalyptic reading altogether and suggest the notion of a talking fish is as fictional as Tony Soprano`s talking-fish dream in an episode of The Sopranos .

Stand-up comedians have already incorporated the carp into their comedy routines at weddings. One gefilte company has considered changing it`s slogan to: `Our fish speaks for itself.`

Still, the shouting carp corresponds with the belief of some Hasidic sects that righteous people can be reincarnated as fish. They say that Nivelo may have been selected because he is not Jewish, but a weary Nivelo told the New York Times : `I wish I never said anything about it. I`m getting so many calls every day, I`ve stopped answering. Israel, London, Miami, Brooklyn. They all want to hear about the talking fish.`

A devout Christian, he still thinks the carp was the Devil. `I don`t believe any of this Jewish stuff. But I heard that fish talk.`

He`s grown tired of the whole thing. `It`s just a big headache for me,` he added. `I pull my phone out of the wall at night. I don`t sleep and I`ve lost weight.`

nazar sahib:

you certainly shall have my support if you find your way into power. and that i think is a better discussion then endless and ultimately pointless debate over theology.

re:#89 by ballukhan
Good post.
You need to post this in another forum where a character by name Dionysus does not seem to grasp the concept of a nation and nation state.
Sridhar

Faisaluno # 104

There is no serious difference in views with you - it is only the shade and the context in which one aspect is emphasized or de-emphasized.

I at times emphasize the ethnicity to bring up the closer historical link with India - and to impress upon the need to normalize the relations. We need it for our sanity.

No religion is bad - as long as it provides its therapatic effect on humans - unfortunately in the last 30-40 years - the Wahabi intolerance has taken over as the visible face of Islam. I disagree with that.

This Wahabi theme also propogates mixing of religion with politics - which further lights the match. I liked the Saminashah`s post because it took away that onus of defending Islam from me - earlier I always said ``No. No. No. Islam is what Rumi or Saadi or Bullay Shah said``. Saimashah said put the onus of saying this on the preachers themselves.

At the end of the day, I consider myself the citizen of this Earth. My loyalty is only to other human beings - not to flags, ideologies, ethnicities, states, nations ..........

thanks.

temporal #125 i know who you mean now. agreed, that for every zaman there is a zubair, and so for every step backward there is a step forward for our beloved nation of pakistan. just as for every naqshbandi there is a nazarhayatkhan (for example). although i must admit naqshbandi is one of the more unique characters on chowkfull of interesting characters. i would have referred to hamidm as the opposite of naqshbandi, but hamidm sometimes swings a bit too far and goes beyond 180 degrees and uses his artistic license to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. nazarhayat strikes me as being dead center on the meridian - the perfectly normal chap.

anyway, i am rooting for the nazarhayats of pakistan, and hopefully they will come through one day and sense will finally prevail in our nation and we get to the real problems facing pakistanis - namely that of getting food and shelter. God wont mind if we divert our energies to the poor rather than building mosques in His honor.

tahmed32

...yaar kamal kartay haiN aap bhee...anonymity protection indeed!;)


...jis zubair ki aap baat kar rahay haiN woh koi aur hoga...jis ki hum baat kar rahay haiN woh sabiha ka miaN hay... gar samajh ga`aye hoN tO last name mut likna!

...t

temporal #121 the longbeard is indeed A. Zaman. Among the Zubairs, I assume you mean the one who also left a great career in another major international agency (this is getting to be a mouthful, but I suppose we need to protect the anonymity of third parties here) to return to Pakistan but remains a normal person last I ran into him.

re: hamidm

``Sweet Gefilte Fish
Place Gefilte fish roll (wrapped) in about one and one half inches of boiling water (aprox. 4 cm)
Add 2 tbs. sugar
Add small onion, sliced
One cut carrot
Simmer covered for one and one half hours

Fish Balls
Defrost the Gefilte fish roll and shape your own fishballs the follow cooking directions

Fried Gefilte Fish
Partially defrost Gefilte fish roll, slice roll into matzo meal and fry until golden brown

Tomato Gefilte Fish
Sauté onions, place over Gefilte fish roll, add 2 tbsp. ketchup, 1 can tomato sauce, cook or bake at 350oF or 160oC for a minimum of one and 1/2 hours.

Cocktail Gefilte Fish
Slather Gefilte fish roll with Cocktail Sauce. Bake at 350oF or 160oC for a minimum of one and 1/2 hours.``

Saminshah # 48,

That was something. Excellent post.

Adios

tahmed32

...yaar aaap bhee hamidm ki tarah srif pakistan-centric baat kar rahay haiN...hain aur bhee duniya maiN musalmaaN buhat ...i think i know the long beard...for every arshad there is a zubair too:)...if my guess is correct you`d know what i mean...otherwise i will explain later...

..oh...and another thing is these processes take their time...20/30/100 years...not over night...

rgds,

t

Rsaxena # 109,

LOL

rsaxena,

.......... smart little horse! ......... it was just a figure of speech ......... and i have never had gifelte fish either .........

re: hamidm

``do you think i go out drinking with hindoos and jews because i like veggie pakoras and gifelte fish?............ ``


...where do you go with the hindoo to drink that you must eat pakoras?...

nazar saheb:
[digression]
``The village Maulvi goes to every home in the evening - and gets a loaf of bread.``

This is remarkable. Among Panjabi Hindus, too, Brahmin or his wife would visit his clients (called `jajmaans`) to collect a loaf of bread (the practice was called `handa`).
I have always wondered about this practice. Brahmins outside Panjab never stooped themselves down to this level and would, in fact, refused cooked food by another caste member. I wonder if the Panjabi Hindu practice borrowed from the Muslim or was it the other way round?