Fading Exclamations

temporal: There is some truth to what hamidm writes - one fellow i know, perfectly normal couple, has a daughter who chose to put on the hijab. Another fellow i know, again perfectly normal couple, has two sons with little mullah beards. Another rapidly moved up the management ranks in a major international agency and then chose to resign, go back to pakistan and last time i saw him he was sitting behind a desk in islamabad with a beard as long as rip van winkle. These are not people who are rejected in the west. indeed, the young people i refer to all were admitted to top notch US universities. So what are all these people trying to prove?

My own theory is that this is their way of asserting their uniqueness in modern culture. Or something like that. I havent had detailed discussions with such people to find out what their problem is. however, i have tried to understand if there was any rationality behind this new-found mullahism by trying to discuss things on chowk with people like adnan (i dont think he is around anymore on chowk) and others. And i am convinced that whatever the reason, the problem is in the psyche of these individuals. They are simply unable to cope with the transition from the traditional society of pakistan to modern western society. they are unable to understand that everything in this world is not zero-sum. That is the conclusion i am reaching after perhaps three years on chowk.

re to #102 by tempora

i allready gave detailed answer in my post 83

temporal,

......... and what about all the people i have known here in america who have regressed, found deen, given up worldly pleasures, forced their wives to don the hijab now that they are really not worth looking at, and started a ``new`` life which includes bad mouthing the west and defending suicidal idiots ............do you think i go out drinking with hindoos and jews because i like veggie pakoras and gifelte fish?............ no, i do it because all my paki friends have discovered god in their old age and live on dates and camel milk ............i see this happening every day - formerly decent human beings who used to live and let live jumping on the bandwagon of intolerance and bigotry ............ at first i thought it was all part of the natural aging phenomenon when people, out of fear of death, turn to the supernatural, but then i noticed younger people going down the same path to nowhere ............ the problem is not of perception - it is a real danger with deeper roots, and the sooner we recognize it, the sooner we can start working on the cure .............. i am not prepared to loose a child to the msa cult like so many of my friends have ............

.......... i hate gifelte fish !

hamidm2 #105 I too have heard the standard argument from the Colonel Blimps and ex-Marxist neo-Islamist Intellectuals of Pakistan, to the effect that arabs are too dumb to have been able to fly a plane into the WTC. My response has been: ``Agreed that the Arabs are incapable of BUILDING something like the WTC on their own. However, any fool can destroy something that has been built.``

That has been met by shocked silence. Try it next time...you will enjoy watching their jaw drop to the floor and eyes pop like ping-pong balls (i am exaggerating a little bit, but not much).

nazarhayat #97 You make a very important point. In muslim societies, the priest (i.e. the mullah) has traditionally been the loser (the guy without job prospects, without inherited wealth to make up for lack of brains). The average pakistani is a down-to-earth hard working fellow who is more concerned with making a living than of whining over the ``plight of the poor muslims of palestine, kosovo etc.`` We pakistanis need to start worrying about our own, the poor in pakistan. The poor in pakistan would love to be in the shoes of the average kosovan or the average palestinian for whom mullahs shed tears every friday.

When is the last time you heard a mullah shed tears over the miserable conditions that 95 per cent pakistnais live in? The millions of children who have never worn shoes, nor seen the inside of a classroom, nor gone to bed on a full stomach?? All you hear about is crocodile tears over kashmiris (the kashmiris would be more free living under a democratic India than a mullah regime from Pakistan anyway), or palestinians (the average palestinian just wants this violence to end - there is an eloquent article in today`s WP from a palestinian in jerusalem about it), or kosovans (who look forward to being integrated with the European Community).

hamidm2

you say ......... i go back to pakistan a couple of times a year and i have seen a steady regression over the past two years.......

...you could very well be right but at the outset i mentioned am talking about all the Muslims not the endangered species in Pakistan only:)...

and if i may add this...you only recently discovered the alternative attractions in dubai...and the forays of uncles and aunties in unchartered waters in pakistan;)...both these are relatively old facts...one can be dulled by one`s own perceptions and think of these as new developments...

...t

temporal

``since there are 1.2 billion world wide and only a few on the lunatic fringe...i hope from those amidst the millions in the silent majority some will contribute towards this necessary renaissance…(not regression)``

......... i wish you were right but it is wishful thinking ......... i go back to pakistan a couple of times a year and i have seen a steady regression over the past two years....... the majority is lunatic and the sane live precariously on the fringe .......... don`t be fooled by the english press - check out the urdu media which represents the majority view .............

re: ahmadzai #100

.....chaddi mein aag lag gayi...

Ahmadzai # 100 # 99

You outdo Romair. Everytime I begin to think of myself as an Indian, I feel happy reading the Ahmadzais and the Romairs.

How naive I was in my liberal days when I thought that Islam could be reformed.

#98 by aliyasaeed
``Got to say to SaminShah though that despite your copying and pasting of the internet site (well known to most surfers)of Quran translations, your source of translations from the original post remains obscure since none of these translations match with what I am beginning to suspect was your own take rather than an authentic translation.
As for the sophomoric sentence that ended in a he-he-, well I would have found it vaguely entertaining at age 15. been a few decades since this lost it`s appeal.
Later friends. ``
my friend you demand me full verses and i give you.what you want i translate myself Quran and give you translation.this is most obscure thing which you want.what wrong with translation of Quran which i got from any site.these three are reputed authers.and who told you these are not authentice one.i said you once again read essence of verces not grammer of it.
and i also said good bye to this board because i also tired.good bye.see you in other boards.

I think these remarks about Indian media shows the same storeo-typical views that are churned out by the PTV about indain media. I can name hundreds of TV programmes and thousands of Newpapers and Magazines where religion is hardly a theme or issue. It is the cultural values, family values, respect to elders, alienation, corruption,jealousy, competition and everything that pertains to a democratic society that is the underlying theme of these serials and programmes.

The remarks at #100 by ahmadzai on September 14, 2003 5:50am PT

``The reality is very different there. Indians are deeply religious and therefore, secularism is unnatural to them and will be a dead issue within next few years.

I am afraid that whereas religious extremist will come down and finally disappear in Pakistan, it will eventually rule in India - something that both Indians and Pakistanis should worry about. ``

Is only a wish of these brainwashed mullahs which will turn out to be a dud as always.

However I would like these mullahs to look at my post at #89.

nazar sahib:

i have a lot of respect for you because of your unwavering commitment to peace. and i actually have expressed this in writing before. that said, i have serious disagreements with you on a couple of your recent posts that have dealt with religion and pakistani ethnicity. i do however apologize for expressing my disagreement in a ham-handed manner.

on religion, you seem to suggest without offering any evidence that muslims systematically behave in a problematic manner because of theological rather than political reasons. this argument if taken to its logical conclusion has serious implications not least for people like me who reside in foreign countries. for example, if my religion makes me prone to commit violence against non-muslims, what then should be the response of the government of the country i find myself residing in? and btw, mullah when he talks about h.r. violations against muslims in places like kashmir, palestine, balkans and gujrat also turns it into a religious rather than a political conflict. related to this, you suggest that islam needs reformation along the lines of christian reformation. my comment is that christian europe killed a 100 million people after going through reformation. so do we really want islamic world to follow this pattern?

relating to pakistani ethnicity, you seem to suggest that punjabis are being denied the right to live life as they see fit. i dont agree with this assessment. and again, policy consequences of actions based on this assessment are pretty bloody. also on a personal note, i am a muhajir and pakistan is the only home i have. so i do react rather negatively when people talk about kicking me out, something that actually happened to my family in east pakistan. still it is not personal and i hope all is forgiven and forgotten.

....... as usual our brilliant air marshall has summed it all up for us: it is the fault of the west, the jews , the secularists and the mullahs that the muslims find themselves up kaka creek without a paddle............nothing wrong with the unwashed idiot in charsada, and the ideology that compels him to join the murderous taliban to kill infidels ............. nothing wrong with an ideolgy that forces muslims in america to live angrily on the fringes of society, rejecting everything western civilization stands for, and dreaming of joining their brothers from charsadda in cold dark caves to plot the demise of the west.............

......... how can you hope for a reformation when the best and brightest from risalpur won`t even acknowledge that there is a fundamental problem with their ideology and world-view .............. they tend to ppoh pooh people like saminshah and the evidence they bring to the table .......... they would rather blame the west, jews, hindoos, the free masons, the cia, the mossad and anyone with the last name ahmed for all their troubles ..............

.......... a few weeks ago a retired admiral and a serving air commodore told me that they still think the jews were behind 9/11.... ``how can an arab pull off something so sophisticated?``, they asked .......... i guess romair is not alone ................

adnan_rafiq

...you say Am I wrong in suggesting that most of us Chowkies are suspended in cultural midair? We are neither here nor there. Our world view is colored due to the fact that we are amidst people who view us with suspicion and, at times, contempt. We need to stop taking ourselves so seriously and listen to the Muslim on the street. We may not like what we hear, but listen we must.

well said!…

the participants here are not your average desis…we know it…but am not sure if all are ‘suspended in cultural mid air’…there is a fair number of them that live in the thick of the action…others who visit regularly…but will admit this…a majority of them do not come from the lower classes…this may colour their perceptions somewhat...

…however despicable, dastardly and abominable OBL maybe to me and to millions…as a symbol of rebellion against the almighty USA he has achieved for himself and for millions of his supporters a world wide a recognition that perhaps far exceeds his reach…OBL’s face is a symbol of defiance that the swaggering uni power, ruler of the entire world desperately wants to dismantle…he is the new Che Guevara, Nelson Mendela rolled into one for those millions…together with his first victory against the giant…his demand that the US quit and withdraw from Saudi Arabia…(the last US soldiers left the base near riadh in april this year)…however we view this event…it is no small victory for OBL…and on the other hand the US led west will intensify its hatred of all OBL represents…this bodes ill for the Muslims in the short term…but in the long term am hopeful that a resurgence can be brought about…as godot has said it so well:

The seismic shift that occurs deep under the ocean is not immediately felt or seen on the surface of the ocean. The deep changes that are brought to group-thinking and attitude are initiated by only a handful, the ordinary masses are not indicative of the profound changes that may be taking place within. These psychological changes take effect at a mass level and are visible only after a long time; there is a lag time spanning several generations.

rgds,

t
rgds,

t

saminshahbhai/behn

...you say...It is impossible to be comfortable with Islam any more. Bit by bit, the world is apprehending that, unless quickly diffused, a potential catastrophic confrontation is looming in the horizon....It will be a confrontation between the civilized world and the barbarism, a war between humanity and extreme fascism...The world, truly, is about to be divided between the believers and the non-believers, between Muslims and non-Muslims.

A small number of erudite Islamists, imbued with the distorted vision of Pan Islamism and an unrelenting penchant to bring back the seventh century barbarism in the space age of this twenty-first century have pushed these ignorant and innocent Muslims, who have very little idea about Islam, in the precipice of a cataclysm.

…this is one of the argument am trying to highlight here…pushed to a corner the Muslims ( I have problems with the word islamist so forgive me if i refrain from saying it) will rethink or perish…since there are 1.2 billion world wide and only a few on the lunatic fringe...i hope from those amidst the millions in the silent majority some will contribute towards this necessary renaissance…(not regression)

…re: the quoted translations from Qur’an …I am no expert…but I think aliasaeed’s question as to the source of your translation was a valid and simple query that you have avoided…despite long posts…

rgds,

t

ahmadzai #100: ``We are witnessing an increasing number of posters on Chowk who are unnecessarily bringing in religion and especially its debatable issues. Instead of getting into a useless debate that leads nowhere, please revert to the topic under discussion.``

This is a very good point. I have also been trying to bring it up.

There are two groups that will always be obsessed with religion. I call them the Fazl ur Rahmans and the Salman Rushdies. They need to bring up religion again and again, in every discussion, because it identifies their identity. One has to bring it up as the solution for everything. The other has to bring it up as the problem with everything.

If you ask why the education system in Pakistan is poor, the first will reply, ``not enough Islam,`` while the second will reply, ``too much Islam.`` Neither will be willing to discuss the real issues, like budget, schools in rural areas, etc. If you discuss Jinnah, their discussions will only be based around his views on one thing. You guessed it, religion. The extremists amongst them will start declaring people non-Muslim at one end, while the other group will hurl all kinds of abuses against Islam.

If religion were to go away, where would the Fazls and Salmans be? Would they be as well known as they are now? No. Because they need religion to create controversy around it. Salman Rushdie would just be another writer, like so many other writers, who are as good, but unknown since they don`t create controversies around religion. While Fazl-ur-Rahman would just be another politician, like so many others, who don`t rely on religion as their base. Both Fazl and Salmans have made a place for themselves, because they both have a fanatical unthinking following, that somehow or the other, has declared both the representatives of Islam. They both get asked questions about Islamic reformations, and what not, by their followers, as if they are the experts.

It is thus in their interest to bring in religion into everything. It defines their identity, and it is the only way they can get others to listen to them. In my opinion, both groups are part of the problem. The easiest way to pick them out is to see who brings in religion and Quranic verses into every debate. You maybe surprised to notice that the Salman Rushdies probably bring it in more than the Fazl-ur-Rahmans. This thread certainly indicates that.

The moment I see someone whose only answer to every question is either of the following: 1) Islam 2) Secularism, I tend to disregard their views, since they have little to offer. These two are the answers to a few questions, definitely, but not the answer to every single question, nor to even an overwhelming majority of questions.