Waiting For Fatwa

Pmishra , mohar, Rsaxena:

You guys are absolutely right. Once the proof of Osama names has been given, tAhmad can only salvage his credibility by admitting his erroneous post otherwise all his future `facts` would be suspect.

PS: According to newspaper reports I read sometime ago even a lot of non-muslims in non-muslim countries have named their children Osama. More to show their hate for US, I presume, than their concern for Osama.

...hahaha, a cornered muslim always points fingers at others while his abduls and tauheeds fly planes into buildings and get deported from countries as security threats....rant on, kids...

Tahmed
//..You are merely demonizing the muslim community like any two taka hindutva...//

Mian - you are kidding, right! Why would anybody bother ``demonizing`` you islamic dumba$$es - you guys are doing a much better job all by yourselves. Just yesterday - the US Army Islamic ``chaplain`` employed to counsel terrorists held at Gitmo, has been arrested on charges of espionage and aiding the enemy. Do you realize the kind of ``demonizing`` effect these sort of incidents creates world over? And you are blaming hindutva for ``demonizing`` muslim community?

I know this is a favorite pastime of people of your type - imagining a hindu/jewish conspiracy behind everything that is wrong with ummah. Mian - wake up!
+++

//..And how many muslims do you know who have named their child ``Osama``?...//
None. what kind of stupid question is this anyway? There have been so many reports from credible sources about this. In this age of information - you don`t have to have personal contacts to know in detail about something, including, if people are naming their child ``Osama`` or ``Nathuram``. It is all out there in the open.

The infinite wisdom of tahmed32 #208


Step 1. Make claims that are substantively wrong regarding the great enthusiasm for and world-wide respect for Osama among certain communities.

Step 2. ooops, news articles showing the error of the claims are published online!!!!

Step 3. response ``Since I have had interactions with you before (and caught you lying, as you may recall),``.

Good job. Anyone who posts factual material that contradicts you is a ``liar`` right? We should commend you for originality and creativity, but regrettably not for accuracy or fairness.

Heh, heh... I can see why you don`t plan to respond. Rest assurred that the next time you make some nonsensical claim unsupported by fact we will be happy to take you out to the woodshed again.

re: rozaibia

In reference to saminshah # 209.

ROFL ;)

Ciao

I am for sure there will be no fatwa for irshad manji because
islamist start to realize this two word ``fatwa`` and ``jihad`` done most of harm to islam`s image.
and second now islamist realize there are lot of books like this in market.now a days islam is scritinize everywhere. how much fatwa they can pass.

not agree

#195 by rozaiba on September

madam i 100% agree

AlephNull/Pmishra: I asked mohar11 a question. And you two lurking assistants to mohar11 jumped in to answer. Earlier mohar11 had jumped in to defend rsaxena. If this goes on, soon we should have enough hindutva apologists on this board, each trying to defend the other`s miserable ass, to form a soccer team.

Anyway, to respond to your posts...

AlephNull #207 Your post does not answer the question I had asked Mohar11 (how many muslims does HE know...). If you wish to have a discussion with me, go back and read the rest of the discussion and respond to the basic issues i raised. Dont take isolated pieces to defend the criminal mindset that causes mohar11 and others like him to try and demonize pakistanis, a point that is clearly an obsession with the hindutva soccer team.

Pmishra2: Since I have had interactions with you before (and caught you lying, as you may recall), I dont have sufficient respect for you to waste my time holding discussions with you. Have a nice day.

Pmishra2 #206

Here are more reports from as far back as 1999:

From LA Times, July 24th 1999: Osama bin Ladin is Wanted Here Too

“Babies and businesses are named after the suspected terrorist, who is a hero on Pakistan’s frontier for his battle against the West.”

From BBC News July 9th 1999: ’Osama’ popular in Pakistan

‘A growing number of parents in Pakistan`s rugged North West Frontier Province are naming their newly-born sons after Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden.
According to a report in Pakistan`s English-language newspaper, The News, a survey has established that the name `Osama` is widely popular in the mountainous province bordering Afghanistan.
Some 500 baby boys were named Osama in Pakistan`s Khost region, after the United States targeted suspected bin Laden hideouts in neighbouring Afghanistan with missile attacks last year.’

So this fashion has been around for some time.

I also recall seeing several images of demonstrations in Pakistan in the last two years where the protestors carried placards with such slogans as “Osama is our herrow”. Of course it’s more than conceivable that these were stage-managed by the ISI to blackmail the West.

I’m not surprised that Tahmed sahib displays ignorance of all this. He absolutely refuses to countenance any facts that overthrow his religiously held convictions.

#204 Mr. Ignoramus writes

[quote]
And how many muslims do you know who have named their child ``Osama``? You are merely demonizing the muslim community like any two taka hindutva.
[end-quote]

Really? Lets say several thousand in the past year. Don`t take my fascist hindutva word for it. Here are some newsreports:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1741171.stm

This comes as reports from mainly Muslim northern Nigeria say that there has been a massive increase in the number of baby boys called Osama - after Bin Laden.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/564810.asp

Today, in Afghan refugee camps in Pakistan, a popular child’s name is Osama. Many local businesses, trying to capitalize on his fame, use “Osama” in their names.


WHo are you trying to kid? You think we haven`t seen the demonstrations with posters of Osama and the general adulation for him. Or read the bizarre interviews in Time magazine with affluent pakistanis, who combine whining for a US visa with their great admiration for their ``boss man`` -- Osama!!

I guess you would claim that many indians respect Godse similarly! If so, please explain where these demonstrations take place and why they are never covered in the press. Maybe a brahminical plot? Hindu-Jewish axis?? Give it your best shot, don`t hold back...

You have to test your husband’s…………..

By-Ayesha Raheman
You are a Muslim-woman. You are a loving daughter of your poor village-parents, loving doll of your brothers/sisters. Without much formal education, you are thorough in your devotion to Allah/Prophet (SA)/Qur’aan, in your Namaz, Roja, Zakat, and other Islami rituals. Though unsung and unlamented, you continuously work hard for your home and loving kids. Your husband is an average guy. He works hard for the family and in last 10/15 years made some properties also. You are happy, content.
And then the thunder brakes down on your head, for no fault of yours.
For silly reason, your husband gets upset with you and utters “Talaq” three times in a row. And he gets stunned. He did not really mean to divorce you, and realizes his blunder immediately. But the neighbours overhear his utterance and reach it to the Chairman of the Union Porishod. The Chairman feels it necessary to observe the Islamic Law. He declares that you are divorced. You will have to leave the house after the Iddat, and observe “hijab” to your “ex”-husband, the same person whom you gifted kids and shared bed/life with.
The Imam does not quite agree with the finality of the divorce because the utterances were done all at one time. He brings Maolana Wahiduddin’s “Woman in Islamic Shariah” and shows from page 109 that according to a hadis of Abu Daud ( Sahi Sitta), the prophet (SA) took three utterances at one time as one utterance. He also shows from page 51 of Md Sharif Chaudhry’s “Women’s Rights in Islam” that a hadis of Nisai ( Sahi Sitta) records the Prophet (SA) got extremely angry with a case like this and said “ Are you playing with the Book of Almighty and Glorious Allah while I am ( still) amongst you”? The same he shows again in page 127 in the Bangla translation of the Qur’aan by Maolana Muhiuddin Khan. (This book he bought from a bookshop by cash money though at the bottom of the 2nd page it is written that this is only for free distribution from the Saudi King, and not for sale). But the Imam was defeated. The Chairman showed from the page 110 of the same book of Maolana Wahiduddin that latter Khalifa Omar (RA) validated the divorce with three utterances at one time, though he used to whip the husbands for this ‘crime’ against the Qur’aan.
So, you are divorced now. What is your fault? You don’t know.
They open the Qur’aan and read the divine instruction from Sura Al-Bakara
( Sura-Cow)-230:- “So if he divorces her ( for a third time) then she shall not be lawful to him until she weds another husband; and if he (also) divorces her, then there shall be no sin on either of them if they return to each other………..” ( translated by molla,- please double check for “distortion”. )
So now you must marry somebody else and then get divorced by him to be re-united with your home, your kids and husband! You stand like a statue of stone. Your husband stands like a statue of stone, speechless, like a helpless orphan in front an extremely powerful religious system. There is a chance of repentance and hope of pardon from Allah for heinous crimes like killing, rape, theft or robbery. But there is no chance for you or your husband for his simple slip of tongue. Allah knows, he did not mean to divorce you. The whole village stood speechless.
You never even thought of “marrying” anybody else. You feel shocked, humiliated, finished. But there is no room for feeling in a law. With ocean of tears you and your husband agree to the “marriage”. Somebody comes up. He is an honest guy. He agrees to marry and then divorce you, plans in his mind not to touch you, to keep your physical chastity.
But no! It was not that easy! There the Chairman opens the details of Islami Sharia. He reads it to others:-
Rule No#2536. ………She becomes haraam for him after the third divorce. But if she marries another man after the third divorce, she becomes halal for the first husband on fulfillment of five conditions, that is, only then he can remarry her:
1. The marriage with the second person should have been of permanent nature. If he contracts wither a temporary marriage for one month or a year, and then separates from her, the first husband can not marry her.
2. The second husband should have had sexual intercourse with her, and the obligatory precaution is that the sexual intercourse should have taken place in a normal way.
You think this is enough but not enough in allah’s law
This is what the founder of Maliki School of jurisprudence says.
A three times divorced woman must marry another man and must taste the sweetness of intercourse (hila marriage) before she can remarry her former husband…(Malik’s Muwatta 28.7.18)
Book 28, Number 28.7.18:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad that A`isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said when asked whether it was permissible for a man to marry again a wife he had divorced irrevocably if she had married another man who divorced her before consummating the marriage, ``Not until she has tasted the sweetness of intercourse.(test cum of husbands)``
3. The second husband divorces her, or dies.
4. The waiting period (iddah) of divorce or iddah of death of the second husband should have come to an end.
5. On the basis of obligatory precaution the second husband should have been Baligh (means adult - Ayesha) at the time of intercourse. (Ayesha says:- how come a non-Baligh, means non-adult…………Oh! Forget it!)

Your husband in a broken voice raises the point that the Sharia Book is written by Ayatullah al Uzama Syed Ali al-Husaini Seestani, the top legal authority of 200 plus million Shias, and may not be applicable to you because you are Sunni. Poor man takes a last desperate chance to save you from taking your cloths off to another man, “legally”. The Imam again opens the Bangla-Qur’aan and reads the Tafseer from page 126:- “ The condition of their re-marriage is, the wife will marry somebody else after the Iddat. And if for any reason the second husband divorces her after the sexual relation , or he dies, then she can re-marry the first husband after the Iddat.” (translated by molla, please double check!). Then somebody brings “Moksudul Momeneen” by Alhaz Md. Lutful Alam, and reads from page 231:- “ The foremost condition of HILA ( the second marriage) is a definite sexual intercourse with the second husband. HILA must be according to Sharia like a common marriage. There must not be any condition of divorce or anything else. There must not be a divorce from the second husband by force. He will divorce according to his will. There is nothing to do if he does not divorce”.
Are you listening? Are you hearing anything, seeing anything? Are you trying to say something? You seem to be deaf, dumb and blind. You always believed in Keyamat. Keyamat is here, now, for you. A hundred times you have read the Qur’aan with total devotion, 4:79 “ Whatever good befalls you it is from God and whatever evil befalls you it is from yourself…..”. So you restlessly look for your fault in heaven and earth. You do not see any. Now you have to perform the same acts in the kitchen and in the bed you did with your loving husband. You feel a knife on your throat. Your husband feels a knife on his throat. Your children are shaking like animals in front of slaughterhouse. They will never recover from the trauma they are undergoing now. They will never be able to recover from it, be able to become complete human beings.
THAT IS “HILA”, ONE OF THE LAWS OF ISLAMI SHARIA, UNDISPUTED BY ALL THE SECTS. They kill each other even in the mosques for being Shia/Sunni/Ahmadi, but all of them are quite univocal about the cruel devastating effect of some Islami rules/laws/regulations on your life. They don’t realise how precious your life is. They fail to respect your incredibly complicated systems of body and mind which nature developed through its incredible effort and craftsmanship of millions of years with utmost love and care.
I cannot save you, dear sister! I can only scream, and that is exactly what I am doing. We want Pakistan to apologize to us for the genocide on us in 1971. In different countries conscience people apologized for the crimes their ancestors did to others before centuries. For sure one day you will stand strong against this immense suffering for no fault of yours. You will say, if any religious system tortures innocent wo/mankind, it surely is some devil in disguise of religion. Nobody has the slightest right to molest your dignity as a human being, if you are innocent. And you know that you are innocent.
Before that happens, today with ocean of tears I deeply apologize to you for the torture we did on you for centuries. I cannot do that on behalf of all men because I am not authorized to do so. But a day will come when all the men of Islam will realise your pain and will sincerely apologize to you, my dear sister.

mohar11 #201 (and this is my final post on the subject to you) you write ``I know no hindu who has ever named his child ``Nathuram``, the most evil hindu terrorist that ever lived.``

And how many muslims do you know who have named their child ``Osama``? You are merely demonizing the muslim community like any two taka hindutva.

And why (if you are anything like the reasonable man you pretend to be) is it not your business that rsaxena is in ``hindutva denial`` (as rsaxena proved himself to be when trying to cover up the primitive practices in hindu society)? Is hindutvaism (and hindutva apologists like rsaxena) really as harmless as you try to make them out to be? Ask the innocent muslim and christian people whose families have been burnt alive by these people. And are primitive ways of thinking among hindus in India really so innocuous? Does the mass ``gendercide`` of 35 million unborn females by boy-loving hindu parents really no big deal? How are you any better than rsaxena or harimau or other hindutva apologists?

Read the interaction among pakistanis in the previous article from temporal that i directed your attention to and you will find that when a pakistani poster tried to go into ``muslim terrorist denial`` on 9/11 a lot of us pakistanis (myself included) made it our business to give him hell.

Spare me your pious talk. With all due respect, sir, you are as much a hypocrite as the other hindutva apologists who spare no opportunity to demonize the muslim community while remaining oblivious to the murderous habits of primitive-minded people within India.

199:aquarius
I agree...
Down the line somewhere.....Muslim thought got stagnated...
......and instead of TEHKEEQ and TEKHLIQ ......and hence TAMEER....they are bogged down by..
..TANQEED.....and .TAQLEED....resulting in TAKHREEB.....

Fits like a ``t``:-)

TANQUEED must stop NOW, forthwith. Let non-muslims & kuffaars do it to their hearts content. They are supposed to even when muslims are around. It is not impolite in their culture. So to each, his own.

#196 tahmed32
//..look at the angry (including namecalling) reaction of your compatriot, mr. rsaxena...//

Mian - Saxena is not our problem, Osama is. I mean - I know no hindu who has ever named his child ``Nathuram``, the most evil hindu terrorist that ever lived. Not even most fanatic RSS jacka$$ would give his child with that name. But after 9/11, thousands born into islam have been named ``Osama``.

Look - you are either missing the point or deliberately avoiding the issue here. Hindus kill their baby-girls, catholics $odomi$e their young boys, somalians cutoff cl!ts of their women, tribals in NWFP gang-rape each other`s daughters, Iraqis like sheep better than their women. Who gives a fk? And yes - all these horrible people shy away from discussing their own problems. so what? I mean, god forbid, if tomorrow a dirty bomb flash-fries washington DC and surrounding areas, it won`t be by cl!t-cutting somalians or girl-burning hindus, will it?

Yes - temporal has been taken to task for calling osama a hero - everybody and his uncle has denounced 9/11. That won`t stop millions of potential osamas waiting in the ranks, will it? So How do you stop these evil-doers? That is the problem world is facing today.

Pot calls kettle black - saxena calls pakistanis whatever - these are least of anybody`s worries at this point.

re sameer #170 and anil #191:

Institutions become stronger in the presence of opposing forces. The major reason for democracy taking root in Europe lies in the strength the church enjoyed in the middle ages. Anil gives the example of the Church of England, infact most kings in Europe had to form their own churches at Rome`s intransigence(e.g. Russia,France etc.) for one reason or another. The church kept the kings in check allowing opposing movements to gain hold.

Contrary to popular perception, reform movements in the Church did not want the religion to be reformed, they wanted to go back to earlier, simpler times closer to the `fundamentals`. The Islamic reform movements like the Tableeghi jamaat have a similar rhetoric. That was the reasoning why these jamaats had such an easy time getting US visas pre 9/11. The west wanted these movements within Islam to promote stronger institutions. Unfortunately, their view was highly flawed because institutions within the Islamic world kept using religion to legitimize their stance(e.g. Jinnah`s use of religion for partitioning India and Zia`s doings in the 80s).

Islam at a personal level is not an issue. One can pray as many times at whatever time one wants. Its when it tries to stifle opposing institutions and modern ideas is when it causes problems.

later
-sac