The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan

tahmed32,

Really? I thought the trophy belonged to you before though... with all that `Quran is for all times` and needs to be followed to the last word... Talk about delusional... you are right... I can see why you are so upset at losing your title. Here is what you can do... come up with a 1000 word essay on how Islam is the most liberating experience for the 21st century woman.. and we will give the trophy back to you.

-YLH

fuzair #76 I think you make a revealing statement when you say ``but since when did anyone compare themselves to the ``average``. The thing is that the average military chap is a pretty ``average`` fellow in terms of family background and/or education qualifications. Sons of nawabs and generals are the exception, not the rule. Sure they (the ``average``) all want jobs in the ``civil`` - they were never considered ``civil service material`` in the first place, nor could qualify for entrance to any of the professional colleges.

So, why SHOULDNT military people compare themselves to the ``average``? If they want to get rich, they better do it the old fashioned way - by working for it. Not by taking it as their due, like bandits.

I agree with Zakk. These attacks on Romair are in poor taste. Romair and I have often disagreed without getting too personal about it. I don`t think we need to attack the person if we don`t like his/her ideas. I disagree with a fair bit of Romair`s analysis but the personal attacks reflect badly on all of us.

However, in this case, I have to agree with some of Romair`s analysis. Captains/Majors/Lt. Cols do tend to live a hand-to-mouth existence. Certainly they are immensely well off compared to the ``average`` Pakistani but since when did anyone compare themselves to the ``average?`` We all compare ourselves to those who are better off than we are. The real perks don`t start until you get your first star and even then, there is a limit to how much you get (unless you are truly creative and or greedy). I know of a Lt. Col. who was pretty honest (i.e., never took money or expensive gifts) until about two years or so before his retirement. He then pulled in a couple of favors, got himself posted as Station Commander or Deputy Station Commander, and proceeded to make money like mad. When one of my relatives asked him why he was spoiling his reputation like this, his response was something on the lines of ``I have three daughters and the pension is not enough to live on, much less get them married off.``

Yes, there are pretty substantial perks that go along with the uniform (accomodation, batmen, a staff car, etc) that all go away very quickly and there are many more officers who want govt jobs than there are govt jobs available.... So you do the math.

re Manto 66

``Sigalph do you want me to start up a PML SA? :) ``

Sure. Actually, wait a couple of weeks, I need to have myself fitted for a nice white sherwani and Jinnah cap before taking that portratit picture that`ll be on the posters.

Mantolives #65 you write ``After reading Romair`s ignorant post #22 I have come to the conclusion that there is no one more delusional or idiotic than this person on chowk. ``

That was kind of you to hand over your trophy for (drum roll please) ``The Most Delusional Person on Chowk`` to Romair. You are a generous man indeed.

harimau

It is not that easy in Pakistan. The qabza group or plot mafia is above every law of the land. Similarly, there is bureaucracy called patwar khana which falls under district administration, which manages lands; it has its talons dug deep into our jugglers. Farmers have been paying direct and indirect taxes for centuries, and they have no idea where their money is going. We have the cruelest tax structure in the whole world with absolutely no representation. Feudal lords represent only themselves but then they dont pay taxes. Those who till, pay all the taxes.

I think many of the attacks on Omair are in bad taste. Argue with ideas but stooping to personal attacks reflects more on oneself.

Romair #60 I felt so sad for the poor majors and captains of army after reading your post that I was moved to plagiarize a poem (or shall we say, indigenize the poem so it applies to Pakistan):


``Oh, Pak is a pleasant place for them that ’s generals and high
But Pakistan is a cruel place for such poor folks as I``
This has been the heart breaking lament
Of Captains and Majors as they sucked up to COs
In Rawalpindi Cantt.


I also feel the pain of your ex CO. Poor man could no longer abuse government property (telephones) after retirement, and had to suck up to his former subordinates to be able to make free phone calls. I bet he felt as much shame when doing this as madonna felt when tongue kissing young britanny.

Ref Urstruly #68

[What we really need is, is to document the agriculture economy better; transperancy in the working of patwaris; and the tax collectors who collect abyana, usher, etc. And unfortunately these steps cannot be taken with a military dictatorship.]

This is the EASY part. Just use technology.

All land records are computerized in Karnataka. Andhra is moving to e-governance. Tamil Nadu has mandated that only computer-generated title deeds are valid and no scribbling on the deeds would be acceptable. It will cost only Rs. 20 to print out your title and one would be free from all the touts who hang around government offices trying to fleece the farmer.

[Taxation without representation is a disaster. I would support a civil war if it results because of that.]

You don`t have taxation without representation. You have representation without taxation. No wonder the feudals like it very much in Pakistan.

Rozaiba:

Your article on process is excellent.

hamidm2

I absolutely agree with all your posts. I think this land reform non-sense should stop now. What we really need is, is to document the agriculture economy better; transperancy in the working of patwaris; and the tax collectors who collect abyana, usher, etc. And unfortunately these steps cannot be taken with a military dictatorship. Taxation without representation is a disaster. I would support a civil war if it results because of that.

rickshaw pullers with nikes and batmen as caddies .............

........... less than 2% of the work force in the US is employed in farming and they can produce enough food to feed the world ...........

.............. so, once again, why do we need land reforms in pakistan?....... shouldn`t we be thinking about how to get allah ditta`s miserable posterior off the farm instead?................next thing you know we will be discussing what kind of wheels to put on bullock carts or how to provide nikes to the rickshaw pullers in calcutta !............ no wonder they call us the third world!........ it all started when gandhi decided to take off his clothes and run around naked .....................

............... and then there is romair going on and on about how poorly the army officers live...............let`s put things in perspective: the graduates of kakul and risalpur armed with BA degrees from the university of peshawar, live much better than their peers .............. most of their peers cannot even get jobs as clerks and stenos at the ghq ............and if you throw in subsidized housing, electricity, servants, club memberships, subsidized education for four kids, csd rations, askari plots, etc. etc. a thirty three year old wing commander ( still armed with his BA conferred by the retd general cum vice chancellor of peshawar university), who spends five hours a day drinking tea and running errands for the c/o, makes almost forty thousand a month .............here is how it works: membership at the paf mess in chaklala automatically makes you a member of the pindi club and you can play golf at the pindi club (using your army buddy`s orderly as a caddy - the professional caddies hate this!)........... then, based on the principle of reciprocity, you are entitled to play at the islamabad club and the gymkhana in lahore and karachi ............. not to mention that you have your own course in the margallas............... and this is not petty stuff - a thousand here and a thousand there, it all adds up ..................as if that was not enough, you and your snotty nosed kids can get subsidized karahi gosht at the artillery mess ..................what a scam!.........

Sigalph, Ferozek

Ditto...

Sigalph do you want me to start up a PML SA? :)

-YLH

After reading Romair`s ignorant post #22 I have come to the conclusion that there is no one more delusional or idiotic than this person on chowk. I have no time to educate a loser like him.

I will say one thing though. It is a fact that MMA didn`t win more than 1.5 million votes. If MMA won 11% of the votes, it is the total number of the votes polled... but a thorough idiot like Mr. Delusional Air Marshall doesn`t have the IQ to understand that.

Like Jinnah said : `I have counterfeit coins in my pocket`... and Pakistan will continue to be cursed by counterfeit coins... Romair being the most counterfeit, worthless POS to date.

-YLH

fuzair: you are right in considering the military to be the great ``leveller``. In the US, the civil rights movement was actually started in the military in the 1940`s when Truman introduced racially integrated services. The rest of the country caught up two decades later. Similarly, in Pakistan, it is true as you say that a large number of JCO/NCO sons and others go on to become army officers. I had an uncle who used to have a young fellow work as domestic servant. He was an ambitious fellow so they helped him study a bit. He ended up getting commissioned in the PAF. Once in the army, the distinctions (whether you are the son of a JCO, a general, or an otherwise wealthy man) tend to break down.

I think it is in the nature of the institution. The uniform replaces social hierarchies with a military hierarchy, thus breaking down social hierarchies.

re. Romair #60, Fuzair #59, and SR #45
hmmm.. interesting... Jsut when you thought you`d pinpointed the problem... :(

Would you say, Romair, that most of the ills hamidm lays at the doorstep of the Army is justifed, and that the real criminals are (msot of) the generals?

Thanks for your insights.