The obstacle in social mobility in Pakistan

fuzair #87 There are indeed many, many decent army families, who were ``cash poor but proud``. Growing up in army cantonments, I can vouch for that. The million dollar question(or the 10 plot question - just kidding here) is this: What went wrong?

I think the answer is more complicated than venal generals. That is I think a result, not the cause. To look for the cause we need to dig deeper. If we dug deeper, what we would find historical factors (e.g. the military cast a long shadow in terms of recruitment etc. from British days in areas that are now Pakistan, Pakistan as a frontline state in the war against communism, the visionless and divisive politics of politicians who succeeded Jinnah, the list goes on) that gave rise to the military dictators. One could write a book on the subject.

While there is no doubt that some people remain true to the spirit of the law while others remain true only to the letter of the law (and thus end up owning 10 plots quite legally, to use your example), I think there is a quantum difference between this group vs. the ones that actually break the law. The trouble in Pakistan is not so much the ones who break the law, but the large amount of resources (including benefits in the form of plots) that the military sucks up.

So, the issue is basically a constitutional one (the overwhelming say of the military in fundamental issues of foreign policy, internal affairs, and defence policy), not a question of the decency or lack thereof of military officers. And the trouble is that there are no civilian politicians in the landscape worthy of challenging this.

mantolives: Since Romair is working so hard to win that crown of (drum roll) ``the Most Idiotic Person on Chowk``, I will have to take it back from you and place it back on his head where I see you had correctly placed it in the first place.

Grant of Land lots to military personnel. Is it institutionalized corruption...???

Sameer rejects the analogy between Paki plots for the faujis with `stock option grants` to corporate executives in America. (They are both sanctioned by law & legality.) He says that would be a valid analogy only if the Fauj was a corporation that owned the country. Huh? But it is, and it does... call it whatever you want but in de facto reality the fauj owns the government, and the government owns the country. Yes, it should be the exact opposite, but it is not. That is why I keep harping on the fact that this whole system is imperialistic, true and proper.

This is hardly a new or novel invention. The Romans traditionally granted land to army men as a reward for service. That practice has been carried down through the ages by many empires throughout the world. In addition to the Romans the Ottomans, the Mughals, the British, the Dutch, the Spanish, all of them had similar `reward` mechanisms. It is an integral feature of imperialistic systems.

...SR

Romair,

No where in any profession are plots worth millions given out for a few thousands except for the Pakistan Army... this is the fringe benefit of being the proud member of an army which has lost all wars it has fought.

By the way... what shamelessness has the Pakistan Army and its crony organization the Rangers demonstrated in Okara? I know this is a tangential conversation but hey... while we are on the topic of land reforms, how about getting rid of the biggest frikkin` feudal of them all?

I hate feudals... and I am all for land reforms... but such land reforms will be carried out by the unfettered and complete democracy. Your views about the PPP suk big time. Are the downtrodden of Lahore, the doodhwallahs of inner city, the sabzi wallah on jail road who has had a PPP flag on his sabzi wali cart since 1970, the minorities of Yusufabad, all these are `feudal` masses? Yes feudals did jump on the PPP bandwagon just like they had jumped on to the real Muslim League`s bandwagon... that is the character of the feudal... but that PPP is the only true party of the masses... not the Mullahs who DID NOT WIN 1.4 MILLION VOTES... this is a fact!


Air marshal!!! How dare you sit in Canada and propose that MMA win in Pakistan? You loser!!! I have much better words to use for you... but I won`t... you $%$%$ are sitting in Canada knowing full well that whatever the repercussions of the Mullah triumph you will sit in your cosy little house in the Liberal secular west.... while we in Pakistan get the rough end of the Rod... #@$@%$ ... $#$%@% .... @#$@$@ .... $@#@$@$@ ... imagine the worst abuses and curses you can possibly muster... and you will start to realize how I feel about you.

-YLH

Just confining to upword social mobility - I feel here are some contributors:

- Bhutto`s nationalization was a big mistake - but it eventually resulted into hundreds of millionair families instead of just 20 - the famous slogan of those days.

- Bhutto`s easing of the passports resulted into a mass labour movement into the Middle East - thus braodening the middle class.

- Miltary, with all its evils, has been a great equalizer for upword mobility. Creating a middle class from the poor village folks - and creating a millionnair class from the upper strata of its employees.

- Military, in a very perverse manner, has actually contributed to the social uplift of major cities by establishing well organized housing socities - unlike the rag tag socities made by the civil governments.

- And in recent years, due to the paucity of good institutions in the country, there has been a sizable number of students going abroad - which eventually may result in a well off diospora.

- Lack of job oppurtunities has also pushed out semi-skilled/skilled persons abroad with the future prospects of upword mobolity.

As for the military officers` perks - I generally agree with Romair`s analysis. He could also add that well established political families like to have one son in Army - not for profession or money - but for the rainy days to bail `them out. `

- Few decades back when the military was more professional, and less materialistic, even cadets could apply & get the plots.
- Right or wrong, in those days, the military system looked down upon the materialistic approach.
- Now I think 20 years service is required for a plot.
- Romair is right that JCOs or below retire with a pittance. Majors/Colonels live in a decent poverty. Above Colonels - the picture becomes rosy - and the real killing is after two stars.
- Neverthless, now the junior officers do benefit in other ways like quota seats in good military institutions like NUST etc.

Overall, the military system requires dumb obedient persons. ISSB rejects candidates with higher IQ. (PAF requires higher IQ since job is relatively complex)

The dumb who join do well than the others who are left behind in the village. During the service also, the filtering continues - indiscipline or maladjustment with the military system are the most common criteria for filtering out.

correction #88: `` NS son did that``

should read,

``NS son-in-law did that``

fuzair #87: ``Incidentally, Romair is wrong: we don`t have one four star Army general, we have three (Gens. Yousaf and Aziz). This is a lot of brass....``

Yes, you are correct. I forgot about the Chairman Joint Chiefs. And the fact that usually under martial law, there is a Deputy Chief who is a full General, also.

As for the plots: they get dished out at relatively higher ranks. None of my friends have one. I think they will get a chance to put their names in raffles of sorts, to get a plot, after they have completed x number of years. And then they will be one of the candidates. In addition, all of them, by law now, have to put money into providence fund, throughout their careers, and will get a small house when the retired. Paid for by this money. This has been done, because too many retired officers had no where to go. It is forced savings.

I have nothing against getting a plot in any society. This is done in every profession, by various organizations. I am thinking of joining one from my old college. It is perfectly legitimate investment. We can pitch in, buy cheap land, develop it and distribute it amongst ourselves. Pakistan is filled with real-estate owners etc., who do this. They buy land cheap, and then develop it and sell it. Some organizations do it better than others. This is primarily why the civilians invariably want to buy land in Defence societies, as opposed to similar societies set up by other agencies. The only rule should be that market price for the land should be paid when the development starts.

The problem starts at senior ranks. Once again, Generals and above. For the previous generation, at lower ranks than that. The General ranks have institutionalized corruption, through plots. Actually this is nothing unique. The civil service does it also. And, of course, the politicians are masters at it.

I can give you a simple rule. If you see a child of an ex-military officer, studying in the USA, or settled there, you can rest assured his dad did well on the plots side, when he was in the military. He got a few and sold them. Or his dad was independently wealthy, before he joined the military. There is no other way to even buy a ticket to the USA, for a military officer, through his salary.

I suppose everyone carries out institutionalized corruption in different ways. At the top of the list are the loans given to MNAs from banks, with little or no gaurantees. The military`s way of doing it is through plots for Generals. I suppose, one can argue, that us expatriates have done it also, by getting subsidized education in Pakistan, at the expense of poor Pakistani taxpayers, and then taking off to the USA.

The military owns a lot of land. And over time, cities have grown to join the cantonments, and the land prices have skyrocketed. That land does not belong to any individual. It belongs to the military. And the military belongs to the govt. However, one can set up methods where it can be allocated as a fringe benefit, in the form of a plot, since the land is administrated through the military.

Now, of course the military is big into Fauji Foundations and Banks etc. So that is a link to money also. Again, only for the top brass.

Another method is through the Defence housing societies, after they have been developed. Getting a plot in a new society while it is being developed, after paying for it is fine. But getting one allocated in an already developed one, after civilians have moved into the neighborhood, and raised the prices, is a different thing. There are certain posts in the military, where the General sits on the board of the socieities. And as a rule, the board member gets a plot, at low prices. I am sure the civilians on the board, do the same thing.

So if a person of Maj Gen. rank ends up in certain posts in Karachi, he becomes a member of the KDA board. He then gets a plot worth 50 to 100 lakhs. So an officer can be broke as a Lt. Col. Become a Brigadier. And then if he is good enough to join the elite group of 150 Generals, he could end up in this post, and go from having a beat up old Suzuki, to being worth 60 lakh ruppees. All legal.

This is how it is done everywhere in Pakistan. Below the rank of Generals, the only place where one can really do any corruption is if one is on the border of India Pakistan with the Rangers. Or if one is working with civilian organizations, like Police, Wapda etc. One can join in with the civilian corruption. Within the military, I suppose people in Supply and Ordinance can do some corruption. But, in no way does it compare to anything that can be done by a DC, an ASP or even a thanedar. All of whom are equal to or below the rank of Major.

This is why, anyone who becomes an ADC to the Prime Minsiter, President, Chief Minister etc., immediately uses his boss`s influence to join the civil services. They rarely ever come back to the military. Even NS son did that.

Tahmed and Sigalph,
I wasn`t justifying corruption or excusing it, I was simply stating a fact: junior and field grade officers live a life of genteel poverty if they are honest and w/out private means. Which, incidentally, is one of the reasons why my father did not encourage his sons to join the Army, despite the fact that we are a `military` family.

However, honesty is a relative term. I know a very high ranking civil service officer who has never taken a single rupee [or $ ;-)] from anyone ever but still has a bad name for grabbing plots. He has had at least 8-10, as has his wife and kids, and so his retirement is pretty secure.... How ``honest`` is this?

---

Incidentally, Romair is wrong: we don`t have one four star Army general, we have three (Gens. Yousaf and Aziz). This is a lot of brass....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

romair,

...... seriously, you must stop comparing army officers to pilots in the pia, MBA`s working for multinationals, engineers, physicians and civil servants ............. there is no comparison...... like i said before, you have to compare these people to an ``average`` pakistani with a BA in eknamics or pultical scance or islamic studies from the univushty of peshawar ............ and no, you cannot compare them to graduates of westpoint, annapolis or boulder either - there is a gap as big as the grand canyon between the intellectual level of a westpoint grad and a rangroot from kakul ............i have personal experience - no kidding!..............remember, there was only one general who could read and write without breaking into a sweat - sahibzada yaqub ali khan .......... the rest of them are gun fodder and, as tiger niazi and his ninety thousand disgraceful mercenaries demonstrated , they are not very good at stopping bullets either .............if pia pilots did their jobs as well as these guys, we would have lost half the fleet by now ................

...... of course there are some very fine young men in service who can do much better financially in the civilian world - but they are few and far between ...... the rest of them are terribly overpaid for what they do ............ the ones who are actually capable of making it in the real world - guys, like you - usaully leave by the time they are majors or squardon leaders, get their mbas from lums and get real jobs to earn an honest living .............. the rest of them lare parasites who live on the dole for the rest of their lives and complain .............and i say all this based on personal experience

............. the military has created this myth that they are the only organization that is capable of running pakistan........ they have deliberately ruined every other institution to perpetuate this myth and maintain their strangle hold on the meagre resources of the country............ they might not live as well as us expatriates and the managers at citibank, but they live a heck of a lot better than the unwashed masses who they continue to rape in the name of kashmir and god ............

.............. the only other group that is worse than the army officers are the patwaris .............a typical patwari, who is a grade 11 class-II fficer with a base salary of around three thousand rupees, usually employs a staff of three or four people who he pays out of his own pocket!............. go figure!..........he can keep a general waiting in his baithak while he takes a nap ..............there is justice!

why is everyone picking on poor romair ?

............. why?.... because he symbolizes the military and everything that is wrong with pakistan .............like his brethren in khaki, who think they know everything and are convinced that everyone else is an idiot, he talks with great pomp and authority about things that he obviously knows nothing about ............ he issues dissertations on economics, religion, politics, telecommunications, computer science and animal husbandary with such aplomb and swaggger that would make his mess havaldar proud and send the horrible hindoos running for cover ................ ``let me tell you``, he says, ``i was talking to the chief and he said that this time around we have the enemy by his gonads and oh, by the way, the it industry is growing at 15.9 percent and we should open up the borders with india and then we should crown imran khan as king.......... you know what is wrong with pakistan?... neutrinos........simple physics, really - the neutrions are flipping the neurons in our people`s heads and making them vote for the mma....... and they also cause computers to flip out ``............and so on and so on ................give me a break!.................

............ so romair is like those pillars that the ummah likes to throw stones at during the hajj........it is nothing personal

............. regardless, i still don`t understand why we need land reform?..........

Romair #81 you say ``How did his son (me) end up in the USA?``

Here`s how: My elder brother, who at the time had started work as a design engineer with a top consulting firm (and thus making enough money) in Stuttgart, Germany, paid for me to leave Pakistan and get an MBA from U of Michigan. After I completed education, and got my first job (at the World Bank), I paid him back. Hope this satisfies your curiosity on how I came to the US.

Your next question I suppose would be: ``And how did the elder brother get to Germany?`` Answer: by applying for a scholarship (DAAD) from the German government to get a master`s degree in engineering in that country.

And yes, my parents paid for all of us to get education in Pakistan. Even with the low tuition rates, it was something they could barely afford. But they believed in two things: education and certain values. After that, they told us, we were on our own. And time has shown that they were right.

so you end with: ``If one is going to assume all of them to be corrupt, then one has to put tahmad`s ancestors in that category also. ``

You are entitled to your views on my ancestors. I can only set the record straight as far as facts go. But rest assured the entire world doesnt live by corruption as you seem to think.

fuzair/Zakk #76: ``I agree with Zakk. These attacks on Romair are in poor taste.``

Don`t worry about it :-) I don`t get bothered, by such remarks. Had I been bothered, I would answer back in the same syntax.

I consider this a sociological study. It is interesting to see people in their 40s lose their cool, when they cannot argue a point. People only get frustrated, and resort to personal attacks, when they cannot prove a point. And do not want to admit their lack of knowledge or accept they are wrong.

If I told someone that the sun comes out of the West, they would not yell or scream. They would just point me to a website or a resource about the Sun, thereby proving me wrong. However, if I said the sun comes out of the East, and someone was just bent upon proving me wrong, he/she would have to provide a valid counter-argument, with facts, statistics etc. When that could not be done, since I was be stating a fact, the person would get frustrated and resort to the last defence of the ignoronomous, i.e. personal attacks.

That is the time, I know I have won the argument, and I move on. If you notice, I only debate with people, uptil they either prove me wrong, accept their mistake or resort to personal attacks. After that I stop, becasue their is no point in wasting my time. That individual has nothing worthwhile to offer anymore.

The reason yours and my debates tend to get long is because neither of us has reached the name calling stage. So we are learning from each other.

I must say that there seems to be a general groupings along age, on this site, in comparison to behavior. Those below 20 are still young and innocent and willing to learn. They don`t know much, but want to know. Those above 50 are too experienced and mature, and don`t get into immature debates. Many of those in their 20s (not all), are too young to know much, but too sure of their abilities, and are hence obnoxious. Those is their late 20s to late 30s are quite balanced. The biggest disappointment are many (though not all) of the ones in their 40s. They are still caught up with Zia-ul-Haq, since that is person under whom they spent their college youth. Maybe, they need to be informed that the world has moved on, as has Pakistan (from when they left it). One would really expect quite a bit of maturity from this group, since this is the age where one reaches one`s professional peak.

Perhaps a mid-life crisis.

PM #63: ``Would you say, Romair, that most of the ills hamidm lays at the doorstep of the Army is justifed, and that the real criminals are (msot of) the generals?

Thanks for your insights.``

I didn`t quite understand your question, but I will attempt to answer it as well as I can. Last time I counted, the Pakistan military consists of about 150 Generals. There are 100 Maj. Generals in the Army. About 25 Lt. Gens. and 1 Full General. There is one full General in the PAF and Navy, each. And 4 Lt. Gen. in the PAF. And around ten or so Maj. Gen. The number in the smaller in the Navy.

This makes the Pakistan military one of the most top-heavy in the world (probably). I don`t have the exact statistics, but I remeber the US Air Force in 1990 will a budget of around 95 billion dollars had 13 Lt. Gens.

As for the living standard of the people in the military, I can just give you my own example. I left voluntarily. If the military was such a great lifestyle, with everyone living it up, then I would still be there. And hamidm and Co. would leave their jobs in the USA and join the military. And NazarHayatKhan would not be in PIA, etc.. Based on this, I really have to fell sorry for the lack of knowledge of the people who keep trying to paint it as a heavenly profession. Blaming a Col. as the cause of an expatriate not having a three car garage, instead of a two car garage, is quite ridiculous.

Believe me, I know. On my trips to Pakistan, all of us batchmates get together. A few are in PIA, quite a few of us are outside Pakistan, some are in civil services, a few in Pakistani multinationals and the large portion are in the military. It is so easy to tell the difference in the standard of living. All of us from USA are very well off. The ones in PIA are in the second category along with the ones in multinationals. They are living the US living style in Pakistan. The honest ones in Civil Services are not too well off, but have a lot of power. The guys in the military are literally hand to mouth.

So that is all I can say about that.

The military of the pre-75 or so days was different. Fuzair, tahmad, and others` parents must have done well, if they were able to send their kids abroad. According to tahmad`s post, his father was in the education branch of the Army, and not at a senior rank. How did his son end up in the USA? Obviously the military must have looked after him well enough. Even though his son curses the military all the time, I assume, it paid his father enough to get him settled in America. Something very few Pakistanis can afford. So that generation was pretty well of in the military. No longer the case, though. If one is going to assume all of them to be corrupt, then one has to put tahmad`s ancestors in that category also. If not, then one has to pick and chose, and accept that there are good and bad people everywhere.

Now to the Generals: Yes, the Generals are the cause of a lot of problems. Specifically the Army Generals. Their lifestyles match those of Civil Servants of their ranks. The only difference is that the Civil Servants are too clever and remain in the background, so that their lifestyles aren`t exposed to the public. While the Generals, having been newly exposed to these luxuries, late in life, tend to flaunt it.

There is a dividing line in the military around the rank of Lt. Col/Brigadier. If you can make it past that, you are going to be set. If you don`t make it past that, you are screwed, because you will retire as a pauper. Again, I am talking of today`s generation. The ones who become Generals (though not all) spend a lot of time making up for the low living standards they had during their careers, in comparison to others with the same qualifications.

So, what is the solution to this problem. It is simple. The number of Generals need to be cut down to 1/3rd the current number. And the payscales of the junior officers need to be doubled or tripled. It is too detailed to explain how I came up with this figure. But that is what needs to be done.

I think the general everyday public of Pakistan has assessed the military quite correctly. There is still a lot of respect for the average soldier and junior officer. No political leader ever utters a word agaisnt a sepoy. Neither does any journalist. They respect them. You can check for yourselves. Survey after survey ranks them amongst the most respected people in the country. A recent survey by Davos, ranked militaries, in general, as having the most respect in all countries. Out of these, the militaries of USA, India, Israel, and Pakistan ranked amongst the top four in the world, in terms of respect amongst their own citizens. So one needs to take the subjective comments, from poeple on this site, who are letting out their personal frustrations, with a grain of salt:

``Gallup International`s 2002 Voice of the People survey, designed in collaboration with Environics International and conducted from July to September 2002, included face-to-face or telephone interviews with 36,000 citizens across 47 countries on six continents. With this sample, results are statistically representative of the views of 1.4 billion citizens. Respondents were asked to rate their level of trust in 17 different institutions ``to operate in the best interest of society.......

Given the very low trust expressed in democratic institutions, it may be alarming to some that the armed forces are ranked highest overall. However, very high ratings in countries currently in state of heightened alert (including India, Israel, Pakistan and the United States) contribute to the high scores. `` (http://www.weforum.org/site/homepublic.nsf/Content/Annual+Meeting+2003%5CResults+of+the+Survey+on+Trust)

I think far too many people on this site tend to lose their equilibrium, when commenting on issues. They provide no statistics, no surveys, don`t have any experience in the field, yet comment as if they are experts. The site just turns into people letting out their frustrations. Which is quite unfortunate. It is sad to see people in their 40s behave like five year olds.

Amongst the general Pakistani public, I think they highly respect the guys who fight (NCO/JCO, Capt., Major etc.) and do not have much respect for the Generals. My views are the same. I have seen far too many of my colleagues die at young ages to not respect them. At the same time, I have known far too many Generals up close, and have a good understanding of what they do. But, unlike other, I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because the ruling Assembly of Punjab is full of idiots, doesn`t mean every Punjabi is an idiot. The same rule applies to the military, and probably to most Pakistani institutions.

re fuzair

``Captains/Majors/Lt. Cols do tend to live a hand-to-mouth existence....``

Yes they perhaps do. But should making money be a criteria for going into a career where your task is supposed to be defending your country at the cost of your own life? Are you saying that there is a price on patriotism that can be reached if you make a few bucks? Put it another way, if treason for a Pakistani officer is giving info to India, why shouldn`t it be treason to pillage your own countrymen by taking bribes and using official cars for personal uses? A difference of degree but not of kind.

Like tahmed I`ve very little sympathy for such officers who think something more is owed to them. If they don`t think they can make end meet in the services, they should do the honorable thing and go elsewhere. Perhaps sell their services, as so many do, to one of the Arabian or African dictatorships to teach neandethals to drive jeeps and fly airplanes. That is better than marrying off their daughters with haram money.

I agree about the general competency level of army officers, etc. etc. My point was not what they should be comparing themselves to but what they are actually comparing themselves to.