Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand and Kashmir

nazarhayatkhan #80: ``I am a little late. I was away to Sargodha on 50-year anniversary of Public School, Sargodha. It was a 3-day bash.``

How did it go? I really liked Sargodha. One of the best institutes I have ever attended. Specially when it had old civilian teachers. Visit www.sargodhians.com. They meet everywhere. The head of the association lives in Montreal. I recently started rounding up information on all the old Sargodhians in the IT industry in North America. It turns out there are quite a few. Some have started their own companies, with quite a bit of Venture Capital.

A lot of Bangladeshi ex-students are involved in it also. I think the current Chief of Bangladesh Air Force maybe an ex-Sargodhian.

I would agree with your comments on Kashmir. With one exception. There is really only one group in the military, which is pro-war on Kashmir. And that is the Army, and that too the high command of the Army. The Air Force and Navy have different views.

I don`t agree with the armchair theorists who think the members of any military in the world are dying to go to war. In fact, my experience has been that soldiers are the least interested in war, since they are the first ones who will get killed. All my friends in the Pakistan and USA military would got to war if asked, but I haven`t met a single one who actually wants to go to war for no reason, and risk losing his life. They are all educated people with wives and kids. Some quite highly educated. And none of them has a deathwish, as far as I know. I think individuals who have actually fought in a war, or a battle, and have seen people die, over a piece of land, tend to have different views than individuals who haven`t. Generally (though not always), those who have fought in 65 and 71, or in Kargil etc. and have seen colleagues` deaths, may generally be more gung-ho.

On the whole, I think the average public opinion in Pakistan, as shown in surveys expresses the right strategy. A huge majority of Pakistanis feel Kashmir has to be solved, before overall complete relations with India. One cannot have good relations with even one`s own father, if there is an unresolved land dispute. An overwhelming amount want it solved through negotiations. And a majority want trade with India, even without solving Kashmir. And a majority do not trust the BJP.

My views are identical to the above. I think the no. 1 step should be to open up visas for Indians. Not necessarily for any business benefits. But to educate Indians about Pakistan. To let them see the country. Those of us who work and eat with Indias daily, will tell you, that Indians just don`t know anything about Pakistan. We assume that they know as much about Pakistan, as we know about India. But every other day, I hear questions etc. about Pakistan from my Indian friends and colleagues, which make me laugh. Why doesn`t your wife wear a viel? I thought all Pakistani women wore veils, was the latest.

My close friend`s acquitance was coming to study in North America. He is around 18. His university allocated a foreign student from India as his roommate. A few days before he left Pakistan, his father received a worried call from the father of the Indian student. He laughingly told me the Indian student`s father was trying to go out of his way to convince him that Indians are friendly, they like Muslims, they are not violent, etc. Apparently the Indian gentlemen`s view of the Pakistani school system, was that his son`s Pakistani roommate would be a brainwashed Taliban who had been trained by his country to fight with Indians.

This is how little Indians know about Pakistan. And this is why they are so prone to their govts. propoganda.

There is a unique contradiction I see amongst Indians in the USA. At a personal level, they are the most non-violent people I have ever met. Extremely easy to get along with. Yet at a organizational level, they can be they can and are very anti-Pakistan. You will be surprised to see the no. of Indian organizations that try to pump money into the US govt. system specifically to harm Pakistan. If the US Congress wants to approve ten dollars for a small school in Pakistan, the Indian pressure groups will do everything they can to stop it. They are going out of their way to stop the recent $3 billion dollars that Pakistan will get from the USA. Half or more of which is for the welfare of the poor in Pakistan. Not to mention the amount of money they spend to spread a distorted image of Kashmir. And the money they send to the BJP. BJP is quite popular amongst otherwise mild mannered Indain engineers and scientists in the USA.

This doesn`t add up. Personally mild-mannered inidividuals should not be so antagonistic towards Pakistan, at a community level. The only reason I can come up with is that they genuinely believe they are doing the right thing. And they believe this, because they believe everything their govt. throws at them, about Kashmir, Pakistan etc. And they believe their govt., because they themselves know nothing about Pakistan and Pakistanis, and thus have nothing to counter their govts.` point of view. I think Pakistanis are much less prone to believing their govts. propoganda about India, since they know quite a bit about India. Thus Pakistanis are generally much more comfortable around Indians, then Indians are around Pakistanis. They can have a much more balanced and intelligent conversation about India with Indians, then Indians can about Pakistan. With my Indian friends, we rarely talk about Pakistan, since they don`t know anything. And everytime we do discuss something Pakistani, their innocently misinformed questions make me laugh.

So opening up of visas, will give the Indians a regular chance to see Pakistan. And after that their views should become more balanced. And hopefully, they will also want a negotiated settlement of Kashmir, much like 83% of the Pakistani population wants. And they will realize the excesses their own govt. is carrying out there also.

Otherwise, I cannot see the status quo changing, regardless of what happens in Pakistan. Since India is in the driver`s seat, due to its size and due to the fact that the problems in Kashmir are in its area. From Pakistan`s side, it should concentrate on education and economics, and get to a position where it is no longer economically vulnerable, and thus can have an independent foreign policy based on the wishes of its people. At that point, hopefully India will realize that the direct costs of conflict in Kashmir are far higher for India, than they are for Pakistan. India will have to negotiate some sort of a solution, since I cannot imagine it will keep the whole area occupied, in a state of perpetual civil war, forever.

But, in any case, free(r) trade and open visas, will benefit Pakistan greatly, towards a Kashmir solution - not to mention towards a better economy. Giving the Kashmiris self-determination will greatly benefit India economically.

Hey, why is that everyone on thid board have turned nice and reasonable?
Its so boring! ;-)

nazarhayatkhan at # 85 and 89:

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

However, I would just say that Pakistan should keep mentioning Kashmir on all the fora without having an iota of belligerent tone to keep the just cause alive. For example, only if India incorrectly mentions ``Pakistan`s support for cross border terrorism`` should Pakistan retaliate by mentioning ``India`s state sponsored terrorism``.

Stuka # 87

In pure military circles, I am certainly a very small minority who holds such opinions. But they can be excused. I am sure that Indian military circles also must be opining animostically about China & Pakistan. The only disconnect here is that in Pakistan the military circles call the shots.

Pakistani politicians, no matter from which strata, are more pragmatic and milder. Just see how Tehmid32 is impressed by Jamali`s laid back and milder approach.

On Pakistani street, Kashmir is not an hot issue. The Pakistani intellectual class is also milder and takes a big picture of the Kashmir issue.

My gut feeling is that as and when the full blown civil politics begin in Pakistan, a better atmosphere can be expected for a dialouge.

#82 Dear Mr. D. Mitter, Veeresh Malik, Sridhar...... It is happy time to react with all of you. Tomorrow I will be `` Incharge`` at night. Assuming nothing hetic happens will try comment on article. Normally things always work ok but some times its 200% job. ( so if Icould not tomorrow night then will comment later as it will be disappearing your article with passage of time.) I do not have resources to confirm data and assuming its reasonable i will go ahead. Generally i remember things except numbers.

Your analysis right. The means of production-( business and Industry) creation of wealth, decide the way of life. Yes it always happens there will be more integration vertical and horizontal. I can predict now in 15 years there will more interation of Afghanistan and Iraq in relationship of usa than even Pakistan. It always happens. As it even happened in B.Stan and NWFP with heart lands of pakistan. ( Marxian axiom that the means of production will decide the nature of society and internal relationships in community has stood test of time)

Mr. Mallik you have done very well. I always wonder how stomach holds. Whenever I went in sea at Karachi its hell , when little launch move i can manage, but when its not moving its torture. Then nealy two days i am motion sick. From long distance water apperas calm.
( big oil or freighters have ballast may be it can be adjusted to some extent to control sea sickness or deep inside is lesser stormy than shore god knows, always wonder with great lenghs even 0.5 degree can have amplitude of several feet, sea-saw action at end od sheep ?))

I very much enjoyed `` New brave world`` by A. Huxley, it was given to me by a british gentleman our guest as friend. I must be less than 30 years old. A beautiful bold book. His brother Julion Huxley also wrote great books, those old british aristocrat writer were product of time. New brave world had a nice picture of man and women in bathing suits with rest chair and sand beach.

I have good knowledge studied Islam and Islamic arabic literature but there i do not enjoy. There is shadow of darkness, no joy but stern god and and only one way even historian from that era started development of monist view of history. I do these things for joy and enlightenment. It difficult to explain unless you have studied and enjoyed encient india and arabian Literature. It is my great regret i read them in english I do not know Sanskrut language at all. Fortunately there are many good translation by indians as well as forigners. It sad and pathetic most indians shun great works of their ancestors out of their conviction that it can not be good.
It is my belief and faith as India is becoming stronger economically and militarily it will start viewing itself different way. After calamity of 1000 years from 1680s and rise of marathas the hindu Ummah has started rising, with 100 years british interruption still its growing and central idea of empowering itself has started. This ummah is confident, look at leaders like Nehru, Sastry, Desai, Mrs. Gandhi to Present PM, its is central moving point.
It is my strong conviction things will change in India. Nehru was Badashah of poors but he was selfconfident, selfhelp and own effort is formula. The world new then they now know you can not dictate. Powell will never try to deal with Wajpai as say with Musharaaff. Ummah has gained strength and respect. This has good effect as Indian begin to think confidently. Now slowly indian will pick up classics they are great and will start studying. Up to now things were bad but things are changing and Indians will be able to look at classics. They will find most poetic and beautiful romantic and erotic epic of Kumarsambhava( just mentioning one of 5 great works of his-kalidas). They will start calling Shahespear as kalidas of Emgland. Pakistanis should not get alarmed if indians start reading those poems. It will be foolish as Retard lefitists and seculars will call as fascist revival. Fortunately world has noted is not led by aggressive religion or has no history of aggression at all but assimilation. ( I have written some notes about this subject- Rise and necessasity of Indian Ummah- not in presentable form at this time.) Viewing our own past with pride due to achievement of our fore fathers is healthy.

In this sense I am at loss of punjabi nation as language is culture. It feels sad most punjabis know shah as poet but other than that they do not know nothing about it. They offered themselves to abandon the language and making its slow death. Fortunately Punjabi will survive in india. They can give you Quotes from all foreign greats but never any thing native. That is i feel sad as Punjabi and honestly i feel the die is cast and hardened. In that sense Sindhi`s deserve much credit , they value and cherish their mothertongue.

Mr.Sridhar you point is well taken. But Indians have been mean to even Jamali. I felt when Indian government sent message of happiness at his election really rubbed salt. Govt of India expressed joy at ``selection of Prime Minister Jamali by general president``. How much you can be mean. Fortunately Jamali is sane as Atal and did not make big thing.
For forseeable future ( till usa is in AFGHAN country which may be 20 years) american approved or accepted General will be ruler of pakistan. Just like ayub,ya.Khan, zia or Musharaff will come and go but pakistani state will led army in different forms. So india needs to deal with army ruler and when you have to deal with army ruler treat as equal. Then some thing can start. Also this lobby efforts affect average pakistanis. I am on ground and know exactly how hospatality industry affects. Yes there is violence and law problems but when these are magnified by lobist it affects average pakistani bad way. As i talk our regulars ( foreigners) they just never bring wife or children. They barricade in room and drink. Literally thousands of people will be better if these people bring families , take tous, use airlines. ( our car drivers remember when they will drive car to fill that fat amerian with his family will just order fill it to top and leave five dollars at tips. And they will spend money like thee is no tomorrow). I do not mean to Pakiastani govt does not do similar things, sure they try. It is pervese many people like to read some where in south india 30 people and our news papers will give head line as if pakistani army killed those. Propaganda leads to viciousness. India needs to give respite to Military Rulers as Indian govt has advantage as transition takes place smoothly through elections we have no such smooth landing for fifty years. And in finality Indian parlment and government will be always dealing with army ( though ther can be govt or National assembly) for atleast 25 years then why not deal with real rulers?

I am aware International capital are fluid just like equity markets and will punish inefficiencies and reward others. In global sense its fine and desirable. I agree with that points.

with best wishes for all

NHK:

What was the reaction to your interjection? That should be revealing. Also, since China and Pakistan are allies, is there any influence at all of Chinese pragmatism?

#85...
we would be happy to see this kind of philo descening on the Pakistani public in general.. and the Govt in particular....

we would be very happy to see Pakistan strive, thrive, fourish, and prosper... and if together we can .... wait.... I am being too senti... and dreamy... it is just that one guy wrote something nice....

anyway... lets hope it happens....

Luv,
CC

Dost-Mitter - Kashmir time

Going a little off-track:

I am a little late. I was away to Sargodha on 50-year anniversary of Public School, Sargodha. It was a 3-day bash.

Old Sargodhians Association President is Lt. Gen. Ehsan (586-Fury House) who is Director General ISI. So the Association never has any minor administrative hiccups.

It subisidiary ``Sargodhian Spirut Trust`` is headed by Farooq Feroze (68-Sabre House) ex-chief of Air Staff and Ex-Cheief of Joint Staff. This subsidiary has almost completed a replica school in Sind at Tando Allay Yar. (Sind Govt has already gaven 2 tranche of 5 crores each and Musharaf who was there gave additional 3 crores. He also gave one crore for future such projects as intended by the Old Boys Association in other provinces.

70 Old Boys from Bangla Desh also came along with their families - they intend to open open up a Sargodha type school near Dacca. Musharraf promised that Pakistan Govt will equally match the assisstance given to this project by Bangla Desh Govt.

So education, education - good things.

Other contingents from abroad were from US, UK, Canada.

In one small Pakistani gathering (5 people), issue of Kshmir came up. Even the educated Pakistanis do not logically think about the issue. Indian atrocities & bloodshed is the constant theme - also the Indian arrogance. And its inability to act magnanomously.

My interjection was that we started all the wars - and we need to treat it like a territorial dispute and no more. And not kill ourselves in a thoughless obsession with Kashmir. And may be India is refusing the dialouge because of Musharaf and army calling the shots.

My submission was that if you can not fight them, can not get a third party mediation, can not get them to dialogue and can not drop the bomb - then relax, have patience, improve relations with India, let the doves on both side get stronger and then perhaps move towards a dialouge. Meanwhile, get yourself economically up, have a good image in the world and possibly a stronger say in the world community.

Have a policy of ``Patience`` and ``recuperation``on Kashmir.

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ahmedmadan#78
I`m not sure if you are pulling my leg or being too modest. The only thing I have over you is a few more years on this planet. Although I am nominally a Hindu, you are more knowledgeable even about ancient hindu texts/history than me (which in a non-religious way are as much your heritage as mine!), and certainly more than almost any Pakistani elite on this site.
I was wondering if you had any comments on the article, given your frequent travels to India?

Dear Ahmed Madani # 78, thank you for the compliments. Whenever you are in or around India next time, do let me know.

As clarifications: I have the dubious distinction of not completing a formal graduation from 3 of the best educational institutions in Delhi, in the early `70s.

a) In the first one, I lasted for a day because I did not want to do English Honours, and also the college asked me about my religion. Being young, I wrote ``atheist``, and was promptly asked to repair the damage, failing which they spoke with my father, who promptly took severe corrective action. In anycase, most of the eminent people in that college in those days went on to first do Naxalism during the summer vacations and then subsequently they became sarkari or UN types. Nowadays when I meet them they talk about expensive restaurants, worldwide.

b) In the second one, I lasted for about 3 weeks, in the course of which I sat under a tree outside the canteen with a senior who befriended me and taught me many things, including lessons on life and mind bending and Aldous Huxley. Since I was not interested in B-Com either, and theatre group head was stabbed and college went on strike and I did not have the minimum qualification of a Lambretta scooter to get to know girls better, I left. Besides, I still did not know what the time table meant.

c) The third college was an engineering college where I was wait-list second last so I got a horrible course textile engineering. Here again I saw 5 years of dreadful effort in front of me, and also, got involved in attempting to dismantle a motor-car that belonged to one of the seniors. For some reason, we thought it would be good idea to re-assemble it. On the 7th floor roof of the hostel.

Then I joined the Merchant Navy and before my 25th birthday I had visited more than 70 countries, including that Most Foreign Country = Pakistan. In those days, USSR = 1, Yugoslavia = 1 and Germany = 2. Here I learnt how to get along with all sorts of people, which is the most valuable lesson before Internet.

My only yet unanswered question about Pakistanis, Ahmed Madani ji, is simple :- why are Pakistanis so lousy at 3-patti? (Here I have a confession).

On ships, most packs of cards get marked and recognisable, especially Aces and other high value cards. Even in blind we would know who has got what, somewhat. But by and large, most of the Pakistani seafarers I knew would bid like crazy when they realised, seen or blind, that they had even a King top.

Thanks for your interacts Ahmed ji, I am indeed sorry if you got tourist trapped on your trip to Agra/Mathura, but then, truly, the whole Agra / Jaipur / Delhi triangle is one big tourist trap. In future, if you want to enjoy Taj Mahal, go to Agra by any ordinary train / bus, get off at the railway/bus station in normal clothes without camera, hire a cycle rickshaw or auto rickshaw for full day basis pre-determined rate of 80 kms/8 hrs and roam about. Make it clear to the driver that you may tip him 50-100 rupees, and that you do NOT want to go to any emporiums.

A query about Hyderabadi (India`s) Musalmans posted on `Unplugged`...

Hyderabadi Musalmans please clarify.

Romair/ahmadzai,

``I will request the Management to please clarify the confusion between Romair and myself. Since you have the IP addresses...``


Bade-booday keh gaye hain: A chu-tiya is recognised by his chu-tiyagiri...not IP address!

As ahmadzai, you have 443 posts and as Romair 1776.
There`s ample material to verify this...for anyone who cares.

- - - - - - - - -

The posts where as `ahmadzai` you write to `Romair` are particularly hilarious!

`Romair, I wholeheartedly agree with you...`

`Good point Romair...`

`As Romair has often mentioned correctly...`

Ali_1#75 by ali_1 on October 11, 2003 2:44pm PT
Dost Mittar, I am sure that in the waning days of the Raj, Col. Blimps wrote articles like these about the interdependence of the Indian and British economies etc. Let go man, you have been a Canadian for years now; but then being Indian is like a religion or some other life long affliction.

Ahmed Madani, you and veeresh malik are the only 2 honest interactors on chowk.


Dear Ali_1: I am happy you wrote some thing. You are kind person to say that. I have learned from you lot. We criticize lot, its our past time, but we never say some body you like or some body you did good thing. It is important to say and appreciate good deeds of other or some thing you find good. I like animals and i can not take care of all abndoned cats and dogs. But near our establishment a male cat lives and is my friend. Whenever i work at night I go there with with little morsols of fish in plasic bag. And he shows respect and gratitude to me always even when I have no fish piece. Animals have good qualites than most men and still women call men as dogs.( Do they mean men are loyal like dogs? god knows, women have confued men too long and end is not in sight)

You are right i may be stupid but honest.I have great respect for Mr. Nazar H. khan, D. Mitter and Veeresh Malik. I had made common mistake of calling them kafir hindus but I apologized for that and feel good. All above gentlemen have advantage of visiting and living foreign lands. I am intelligent person as when was in school maths teacher asked me never to raise hand. If no body can answer then i will answer.( it was lot of pressure on me as if i make mistake teacher use to feel bad. they expected me to be right. And i was in love with all my lady teachers its silly thing but it use to drive me to study) Above men have profound knowledge and experience they have advantage of formal education. I did go to two years to famous college but was stupid enough not to complete.

I feel these three gentle men are like stars and lots of peoplee like most expaks and exindia are like planets. They just reflect light they do not produce light. They read and give same stuff, they read too much. ( I believe too much reading makes you stupid). I am student of ancient India i do it for enjoyment and enlightenment. There are little read people who puff like great scholars, let them puff. ( A sage Indian king and great scholor of called bhrtuhari said beautifully- for indians if you know story of UTTARRAM CHARITRA - he was author. He said a brahmin began to teach me and i started little following then afterwards learn even more and I began to feel i know everything and became arrogent and mean minded, as time went I really began to lean and then understood , I do not no nothing. ). I feel lots of arrogance , name calling will go away as they become knowledeable and develop visidom. ( Bharatuharu said in funny way information and knowledge is not equal to visidom)

I feel Mr. Khan , DM and V. Malik have visdom ( they may not know many things, others may know more) they are stars of interaction. I gain lot. I am afraid of them like a mortal on earth, sun is good but if I go too near I will burnt to ashes. They many times produce light not reflection all times. I learn from them gentlemanness, truthfullness and hopefulness which I lack.

It is unfair to bundle me along with them. I get surprised by their sagecity.

I have travelled to UAE and India and I have not lived long time any where. I have no knowledge or visdom. I am observer , I am not deep thinker, I like watching all this life of mine others and street as passing show. What I have is eye for catching salients things in passing show, I register those in my memory. I am karchiearthbound person. I am in pond , its dirty pond I do not like I will like to go to other clean pond, I can not. ( I tried immigration applications usa, Australia even canada nothing works. ). I donot criticize any expak or India as they are better than me. My skills are local indispensible. Once people in my friends cicles were criticizing EXPAK. I told them `` look we are respected in this company, we go out we are nothing. These expaks are with knowledge they are respected every where. ( A king is respected in his country and Pandit is respected in all lands- a old hindu scripture).

I took this opportunity to express my gratitude and appreciation to thse gentle men.
I have respect for Ms. Bina Shah and her contributions as articles, I read them ( I could absolutely follow her recent about usa city of boson). Other women are like planets. ( some men and women are educated retards also).

About me maximum like a commet. Commet is full steam, dust and all fluff and nothing. Its studid its neithe planet nor star.

Mr. Ali-1 liked you attitude to say good about other and following you feel liberated.
Good luck to everybody.

ali_1:
Welcom back!
If Col. Blimps wrote such articles, he wouldn`t be wrong. This is why both India and Pakistan decided to stay in the Commonwealth and remained part of the sterling bloc for a long time after independence.
But I do plead guilty to your charge. I am a fully fledged Canadian now but haven`t completely gotten rid of my emotional baggage. But let me add this: I have no emotional attachment to Kashmir - none whatsoever. If tomorrow, Kashmir goes to Pakistan or becomes independent, I wont be shedding any tears of real or crocodile variety. But I do care about how this dispute is resolved. I would support any method other than the plebiscite, be it neogtiation, conciliation, mediation or arbitration. The reason is a no-brainer: I think that in any plebiscite the voting is likely to be along religious lines, which can have disastrous consequences for India. And I do care about that!