Primetime Pope and the Maverick Mother
Farzana Versey October 7, 2003
#56 Posted by nb on October 10, 2003 7:16:24 am
I`m almost at a loss for words to find that I actually agree with Farzana for once!
Sigalph, what is the problem with Farzana looking at things from the point of view of a feminist?I went to a Catholic School and we were taught to see her as the ideal woman, the Catholic alternative to being Savitri..this is why I can`t agree with the concept of post-feminism, feminism itself hasn`t gone very far and certainly not in South Asia.You`re basically saying she`s too holy for us to see from that view,why?Dilli durast.
I hadn`t heard of women being told to douche ther vagainas post rape. It`s scary to think of all the rapists that have got away with lack of evidence because of the Church.
It was interesting that when Graham Staines and his two little boys were so brutally murdered, the Aussie press thought it was sad,but said, what was he doing there anyway?Interestingly, it`s not been long since a missionary died in similar circumstances in PNG-and because his attackers said he was messing with tribal custom. My point is, while the Indian press was so upset about it-and lets` face it,in our part of the world,tragedies occur every second, the local media actually asked the same questions a lot of Indians got into trouble for asking. Something else-his 17 year old daughter wants to become a doctor in India to serve the poor. Given of course, that India has a hopeless shortage of doctors and we need whites to look after us,this seems perfectly appropriate.
Pedophilia is not a homosexual problem. There have been plenty of priests who also have abused young girls.Remember, though that traditionally, there are altar boys and choir boys in the church-not a lot of girls.You say why can`t they just keep their penises out of anuses(ani?)?This is not the time and place to go into it,but if you are gay,it is just as hard as it is for straight people to keep their bits out of vaginas-we all know how successful men are with that.We`re talking about kids-consenting adults are a different story. When a Catholic priest was accused of pedophilia a few years ago in India,Catholics in India cried victimisation. Why is it ok for Americans and Australians to talk about having been abused by priests but Indians can`t?
Gorabandar, I also found your bit about victims being greedy and lying almost obscene. Do you think all the thousands are lying?I don`t myself think all of them are necessarily telling the truth,but the only ones being paid are those whose stories have been backed up.People who have been sexually abused as children are often pretty much stuffed for life.For people like me,who often work with them and hear them talk about not being supported and believed,hear them weep for their lost childhoods,it is sad to see that things haven`t changed that much.What makes them greedy?Many of them have probably never been able to work and live off Social Security. There are few public health systems that can pay for long term counselling, so they also need to have the money to get them the care they need privately.
None of this is Catholic-bashing. I don`t doubt that there are Hindu priests who do the same-but because our society is different and we don`t leave kids with priests for hours on end for instruction,it is probablymainly younger priests that are at risk from older ones. If we don`t admit that these things happen,we will miss the signs when it matters-statistically it is impossible that of all the people on this board, none has been abused..one child abused is too many.
Sigalph, what is the problem with Farzana looking at things from the point of view of a feminist?I went to a Catholic School and we were taught to see her as the ideal woman, the Catholic alternative to being Savitri..this is why I can`t agree with the concept of post-feminism, feminism itself hasn`t gone very far and certainly not in South Asia.You`re basically saying she`s too holy for us to see from that view,why?Dilli durast.
I hadn`t heard of women being told to douche ther vagainas post rape. It`s scary to think of all the rapists that have got away with lack of evidence because of the Church.
It was interesting that when Graham Staines and his two little boys were so brutally murdered, the Aussie press thought it was sad,but said, what was he doing there anyway?Interestingly, it`s not been long since a missionary died in similar circumstances in PNG-and because his attackers said he was messing with tribal custom. My point is, while the Indian press was so upset about it-and lets` face it,in our part of the world,tragedies occur every second, the local media actually asked the same questions a lot of Indians got into trouble for asking. Something else-his 17 year old daughter wants to become a doctor in India to serve the poor. Given of course, that India has a hopeless shortage of doctors and we need whites to look after us,this seems perfectly appropriate.
Pedophilia is not a homosexual problem. There have been plenty of priests who also have abused young girls.Remember, though that traditionally, there are altar boys and choir boys in the church-not a lot of girls.You say why can`t they just keep their penises out of anuses(ani?)?This is not the time and place to go into it,but if you are gay,it is just as hard as it is for straight people to keep their bits out of vaginas-we all know how successful men are with that.We`re talking about kids-consenting adults are a different story. When a Catholic priest was accused of pedophilia a few years ago in India,Catholics in India cried victimisation. Why is it ok for Americans and Australians to talk about having been abused by priests but Indians can`t?
Gorabandar, I also found your bit about victims being greedy and lying almost obscene. Do you think all the thousands are lying?I don`t myself think all of them are necessarily telling the truth,but the only ones being paid are those whose stories have been backed up.People who have been sexually abused as children are often pretty much stuffed for life.For people like me,who often work with them and hear them talk about not being supported and believed,hear them weep for their lost childhoods,it is sad to see that things haven`t changed that much.What makes them greedy?Many of them have probably never been able to work and live off Social Security. There are few public health systems that can pay for long term counselling, so they also need to have the money to get them the care they need privately.
None of this is Catholic-bashing. I don`t doubt that there are Hindu priests who do the same-but because our society is different and we don`t leave kids with priests for hours on end for instruction,it is probablymainly younger priests that are at risk from older ones. If we don`t admit that these things happen,we will miss the signs when it matters-statistically it is impossible that of all the people on this board, none has been abused..one child abused is too many.
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#55 Posted by arjun_m on October 10, 2003 7:16:24 am
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#54 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 10, 2003 1:57:24 am
Correction to my post #51 to dost-mittarjee:
``I do not want to be any Pied piper…`` should read ``I do not want to follow any pied piper``.
``I do not want to be any Pied piper…`` should read ``I do not want to follow any pied piper``.
#53 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 10, 2003 1:52:59 am
Dear Anil (#31):
If you are still looking in…Interesting post and thanks for your kind words.
[The institutionalization of religion, whether in the form of prophet, or by a prophet, or non-prophet gods, is indeed creation of men, funnily women become more ardent followers in religions. Therefore, if you can bring enough followers then you could join them too, because you will be able to create an institution.]
Women begin to see religion as a substitute for many things, especially rituals. It is a social outlet, for one. Invariably women dress up to visit places of worship – the famed temple saris in TN are an example, so also the Sunday mass clothes, or in some Muslim societies, like the Ismailis, they truss up in their best chiffons for the chaand raat. Women also feel sustained by these as they are an extension of their personalities as the archetypes they are supposed to live up to – as nurturing, forgiving souls. Some religions therefore give much importance to goddesses, making women a rapt ‘consumer’ market.
Re. Rajneesh, I think he created a counter-religion, which ironically got to become more fervent than many regular religions. I think what you call the “retro search” resulted in entrenching itself to such an extent that questioning of others led to blind belief of his doctrine. I made several friends among the Oshoites, but it was after my published questioning of them…they can be as closed as any regular institutionalised religion, sometimes even more so.
[We, in plural societies, must accept them to exist on the fringes, but when they become mainstream, a form of fascism is born, which no plural society would ever tolerate.]
This begs the question as to how they come into being in plural societies at all. At some point the subject of identity rears its head and, surrounded by so many different spectrums, some people feel lost or afraid of being smothered. This in no way condones the fascism that may arise, but every belief system is inherently fascist because it does not really leave room for any contrarian thought.
Regards,
Farzana
If you are still looking in…Interesting post and thanks for your kind words.
[The institutionalization of religion, whether in the form of prophet, or by a prophet, or non-prophet gods, is indeed creation of men, funnily women become more ardent followers in religions. Therefore, if you can bring enough followers then you could join them too, because you will be able to create an institution.]
Women begin to see religion as a substitute for many things, especially rituals. It is a social outlet, for one. Invariably women dress up to visit places of worship – the famed temple saris in TN are an example, so also the Sunday mass clothes, or in some Muslim societies, like the Ismailis, they truss up in their best chiffons for the chaand raat. Women also feel sustained by these as they are an extension of their personalities as the archetypes they are supposed to live up to – as nurturing, forgiving souls. Some religions therefore give much importance to goddesses, making women a rapt ‘consumer’ market.
Re. Rajneesh, I think he created a counter-religion, which ironically got to become more fervent than many regular religions. I think what you call the “retro search” resulted in entrenching itself to such an extent that questioning of others led to blind belief of his doctrine. I made several friends among the Oshoites, but it was after my published questioning of them…they can be as closed as any regular institutionalised religion, sometimes even more so.
[We, in plural societies, must accept them to exist on the fringes, but when they become mainstream, a form of fascism is born, which no plural society would ever tolerate.]
This begs the question as to how they come into being in plural societies at all. At some point the subject of identity rears its head and, surrounded by so many different spectrums, some people feel lost or afraid of being smothered. This in no way condones the fascism that may arise, but every belief system is inherently fascist because it does not really leave room for any contrarian thought.
Regards,
Farzana
#52 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 10, 2003 1:51:55 am
Layman:
Thanks, but may I be just me? And I am not sceptical; I see this as idealism, for only when you are optimistic about the future will you take a realistic appraisal of the present.
Stuka:
I think your post has been more than adequately answered by others. I can only add that some sects in Islam, that have spiritual heads like the Aga Khan and the Syedna, are not considered Muslim enough or Muslim at all.
Maharana:
[newspapers and magazines in India have disproportionately high number of christains in the editorial staff. These people ensured that the murder of a foreigner gets front page coverage for long time. The same day that staines murder took place, ten labourers were killed in communal tension in Himachal, which did not get any coverage. So in essence, justice was ensured for a foreigner (glad that he got it), but a citizen of india, i guess he`s a piece of trash…Could you throw some light on journalist culture in indian scenario related to the problems you have m,entioned?]
I do not agree that there are more Christians in the Indian media; most Indians and people of the subcontinent are obsessed with the foreigner in any field. Re. journalist culture, I would say that commercial interests rule supreme. If you see a particular publication playing footsie with a political party, it is not always because it believes in that ideology but due to pressure from the business/advertising community which indirectly gets things done through the political party in question.
Sometimes, however, a Staines case gets more prominence because the Western media has made inroads and we have to see that ‘they’ know we are doing something about ‘their’ people. A foreign woman is raped and killed and the papers follow up that case; several poor women in villages and cities too suffer a similar fate and at best get a cursory mention.
dost-mittarjee:
I did not say the Pope should go to Iraq…quite the contrary. Re.your views, they are yours and mine are mine. As far as I am concerned, nothing is sacred. I do not want to be any Pied piper…and I always stand by what I say. You won’t catch me doing a volte face…yeah, this I consider to be sacred – the ability to be oneself irrespective of the consequences.
I am glad you read the article. Though your statement, “Scanning through the responses, you must be missing your ususual ``fan club``, so let me try to be a tame substitute” was an unnecessary prefix. I have been through much of ‘fan clubism’ – good and bad – long before Chowk was born. Isn’t it strange that those who accuse me of being provocative are now trying to get on the Ram-Indo/Pak-Kashmir case because it gets the greatest responses? Ah, you have tasted blood…I do hope your ‘fan club’ turns out to be more interesting than mine. Regarding being a tame substitute with your response, why do you even have to try? Do not be what you are not.
Regards,
F
Thanks, but may I be just me? And I am not sceptical; I see this as idealism, for only when you are optimistic about the future will you take a realistic appraisal of the present.
Stuka:
I think your post has been more than adequately answered by others. I can only add that some sects in Islam, that have spiritual heads like the Aga Khan and the Syedna, are not considered Muslim enough or Muslim at all.
Maharana:
[newspapers and magazines in India have disproportionately high number of christains in the editorial staff. These people ensured that the murder of a foreigner gets front page coverage for long time. The same day that staines murder took place, ten labourers were killed in communal tension in Himachal, which did not get any coverage. So in essence, justice was ensured for a foreigner (glad that he got it), but a citizen of india, i guess he`s a piece of trash…Could you throw some light on journalist culture in indian scenario related to the problems you have m,entioned?]
I do not agree that there are more Christians in the Indian media; most Indians and people of the subcontinent are obsessed with the foreigner in any field. Re. journalist culture, I would say that commercial interests rule supreme. If you see a particular publication playing footsie with a political party, it is not always because it believes in that ideology but due to pressure from the business/advertising community which indirectly gets things done through the political party in question.
Sometimes, however, a Staines case gets more prominence because the Western media has made inroads and we have to see that ‘they’ know we are doing something about ‘their’ people. A foreign woman is raped and killed and the papers follow up that case; several poor women in villages and cities too suffer a similar fate and at best get a cursory mention.
dost-mittarjee:
I did not say the Pope should go to Iraq…quite the contrary. Re.your views, they are yours and mine are mine. As far as I am concerned, nothing is sacred. I do not want to be any Pied piper…and I always stand by what I say. You won’t catch me doing a volte face…yeah, this I consider to be sacred – the ability to be oneself irrespective of the consequences.
I am glad you read the article. Though your statement, “Scanning through the responses, you must be missing your ususual ``fan club``, so let me try to be a tame substitute” was an unnecessary prefix. I have been through much of ‘fan clubism’ – good and bad – long before Chowk was born. Isn’t it strange that those who accuse me of being provocative are now trying to get on the Ram-Indo/Pak-Kashmir case because it gets the greatest responses? Ah, you have tasted blood…I do hope your ‘fan club’ turns out to be more interesting than mine. Regarding being a tame substitute with your response, why do you even have to try? Do not be what you are not.
Regards,
F
#51 Posted by gorabandar on October 9, 2003 4:13:18 pm
Regarding ``Catholic Dogma`` being shoved down your throats. First of all the Church is correct regarding the condom. The condom has a failure rate of at least 15% that is why abortion is so prevalent in the US over one million per year. If it fails so often regardng pregnancy then what about AIDS? This is a behavior issue. The liberal press says have all the anal sex you want but use condom and play russian roulette. Many do and die. What kind of will power does it take to keep one`s sex organ out out another`s anus?
Regarding the Church being against ``Contraception.`` The Church believes that the sex act should be open for producing children, however the Church is against ``ARTIFICIAL`` contraception. Here the Roman Catholic Church has a natural famlily program ...The Billings Ovulation Method which is almost 100%. Look it up online,,,be informed.
Don`t follow blindly a rabid liberal propaganda press bases on the MTV culture.
If the Church really had the power and wanted to force it`s Dogma on Pakistanis and indians then it would ``Enfore`` it;s Dogma of ``Thou Shall Not Kill.: and shut down the zillions of roadside sonogram/abortion mills where zillions of women go to abort THEIR FEMALE CHILDREN because those societies just value males. But the Church can only advise. Perhaps one day these societies will wise up.
But those societies will face in the future massive unrest (worse than now) when millions of males unable to marry in those societies start to act up and out.
Regarding the Church being against ``Contraception.`` The Church believes that the sex act should be open for producing children, however the Church is against ``ARTIFICIAL`` contraception. Here the Roman Catholic Church has a natural famlily program ...The Billings Ovulation Method which is almost 100%. Look it up online,,,be informed.
Don`t follow blindly a rabid liberal propaganda press bases on the MTV culture.
If the Church really had the power and wanted to force it`s Dogma on Pakistanis and indians then it would ``Enfore`` it;s Dogma of ``Thou Shall Not Kill.: and shut down the zillions of roadside sonogram/abortion mills where zillions of women go to abort THEIR FEMALE CHILDREN because those societies just value males. But the Church can only advise. Perhaps one day these societies will wise up.
But those societies will face in the future massive unrest (worse than now) when millions of males unable to marry in those societies start to act up and out.
#50 Posted by nooralain on October 9, 2003 2:25:59 pm
wilderflower....
i had already surmised that actually. thanks for pointing it out though. . .
a lover of wilde?!
i had already surmised that actually. thanks for pointing it out though. . .
a lover of wilde?!
#49 Posted by WilderFlower on October 9, 2003 11:51:25 am
PM:
Dude!!! ``My belle``?!? Let`s put it this way for you, buddy boy.. we wouldn`t have needed to fly to Vermount (or Holland) to have our union sanctified in the eyes of the law!
LOL!
Noor, honey, I think PM`s just made a pass at you. It`s that ol convoluted way of his that Saminasha keeps talkin `bout.
--WildeLover
Dude!!! ``My belle``?!? Let`s put it this way for you, buddy boy.. we wouldn`t have needed to fly to Vermount (or Holland) to have our union sanctified in the eyes of the law!
LOL!
Noor, honey, I think PM`s just made a pass at you. It`s that ol convoluted way of his that Saminasha keeps talkin `bout.
--WildeLover
#48 Posted by nooralain on October 9, 2003 10:40:59 am
PM. .
i agree with you about true love overcoming ideological differences. : )
i agree with you about true love overcoming ideological differences. : )
#47 Posted by nooralain on October 9, 2003 10:40:59 am
me? `job-hunting`? and you`re taking resume`s for what?!
#46 Posted by arjun_m on October 9, 2003 7:10:32 am
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#45 Posted by arjun_m on October 9, 2003 7:10:32 am
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#44 Posted by PM on October 9, 2003 7:10:32 am
re. #43 WilderFlower
Damn, that could`ve been --was going to be, in fact-- my post!
Was it your belle`s parents or she herself who insisted that all progeny be baptized?
Nooralian:
You write: ``and that`s [papal infallibility] what i still believe the problem is.`` Speaking strictly from my own experience, in retrospect, such theological differences were the excuse, not the reason, for ending an already deromanticised relationship. I think true love (or whatever the skeptics might want to call it) easily overcomes such ideological differnces. Always!
rgds,
PM
Damn, that could`ve been --was going to be, in fact-- my post!
Was it your belle`s parents or she herself who insisted that all progeny be baptized?
Nooralian:
You write: ``and that`s [papal infallibility] what i still believe the problem is.`` Speaking strictly from my own experience, in retrospect, such theological differences were the excuse, not the reason, for ending an already deromanticised relationship. I think true love (or whatever the skeptics might want to call it) easily overcomes such ideological differnces. Always!
rgds,
PM
#43 Posted by WilderFlower on October 9, 2003 4:56:26 am
re. Nooralian:
Sorry to repeat this personal stuff, but it`s already out there, so..
and that`s what i still believe the problem is. and why in part i did not want a future child (if that was a possibility) to be baptised in the catholic church, and why i ended up not pursuing a relationship leading to marriage with a catholic. : )
Damn! that could`ve been a chapter right out of my autobio. Just thought I`d let you know so you don`t feel tooo cheated bylife. :-)
Sorry to repeat this personal stuff, but it`s already out there, so..
and that`s what i still believe the problem is. and why in part i did not want a future child (if that was a possibility) to be baptised in the catholic church, and why i ended up not pursuing a relationship leading to marriage with a catholic. : )
Damn! that could`ve been a chapter right out of my autobio. Just thought I`d let you know so you don`t feel tooo cheated bylife. :-)
#42 Posted by dost_mittar on October 9, 2003 4:56:13 am
Dear Farzana:
Ain`t nothin` sacred no more?
Scanning through the responses, you must be missing your ususual ``fan club``, so let me try to be a tame substitute.
I disagree with you on both counts.
I think that the Pope does deserve a Nobel. For his indomitable will and showing the primacy of mind over matter, if for nothing else. He seems to be doing a first rate job of what he is supposed to do, i.e., spread the Message as well as the message of love and peace. Asking him to go to Iraq would be to reduce him to the status of a global activist a la Arundhati Roy (and she didn`t go to Iraq either!). He may or may not be infallible but since when has infalllibility become a criterion for a Nobel? I think that giving him a Nobel for peace would bring back some of the tarnish lost by giving the prize to the likes of Kissinger and Arafat.
Same goes for Mother Teresa. I do not believe in miracles and the one being touted in Bengal is most probably a hoax. But what about the other 465 saints annointed by this Pope: Did they meet the test of a genuine miracle? If not, why should Mother Teresa be singled out for special consideration? Mother Teresa became a symbol of love, sacrifice and service to the destitute and hope for the hopeless. Giving her the status of a saint would merely recognize that symbol.
Ain`t nothin` sacred no more?
Scanning through the responses, you must be missing your ususual ``fan club``, so let me try to be a tame substitute.
I disagree with you on both counts.
I think that the Pope does deserve a Nobel. For his indomitable will and showing the primacy of mind over matter, if for nothing else. He seems to be doing a first rate job of what he is supposed to do, i.e., spread the Message as well as the message of love and peace. Asking him to go to Iraq would be to reduce him to the status of a global activist a la Arundhati Roy (and she didn`t go to Iraq either!). He may or may not be infallible but since when has infalllibility become a criterion for a Nobel? I think that giving him a Nobel for peace would bring back some of the tarnish lost by giving the prize to the likes of Kissinger and Arafat.
Same goes for Mother Teresa. I do not believe in miracles and the one being touted in Bengal is most probably a hoax. But what about the other 465 saints annointed by this Pope: Did they meet the test of a genuine miracle? If not, why should Mother Teresa be singled out for special consideration? Mother Teresa became a symbol of love, sacrifice and service to the destitute and hope for the hopeless. Giving her the status of a saint would merely recognize that symbol.
#41 Posted by PM on October 8, 2003 9:07:34 pm
Arjun_M, re. #39:
Et tu?? Damn, pretty soon they`ll have to call the lions out here! :-)
Et tu?? Damn, pretty soon they`ll have to call the lions out here! :-)
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