Of Curiosity, Optimism and Hope

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Temporal:

Thank you for putting up that article by Farzana. It was a trip down memory lane, reading posts by interactors long gone as well as those still here.

I am reposting a submission made by Fuzair, a man for whom my respect grows every time I read his stuff, not because he is ``pro-Indian`` or anything, but because he has the ability to grasp the basics of a situation and to logically differentiate between pros and cons. Also, I think he is ex Army though he has never given details about length of Service, which branch he was in etc.

Tthis is for old time`s sake...and I do not want to divert the discussion away from the original article though I fear that has already been done. Ofcourse it just goes to show that Fuzair had nothing better to do on a 4th of July holiday then to pound out posts on Chowk...

:)

#83 by fuzair on July 4, 2000 1:42am PT
Whole lot of fighting going on here. I think that in this case I would have to side with Gymnosophist here (although I do not wholly agree with him on many aspects). But still, I would rather be a Muslim in India than a Christian in Pakistan. And heaven help me if I am a Hindu in Pakistan.

Point One: There was no Pakistani freedom movement worth talking about. The only anti-British Muslims were Congressites. Don`t forget, Mr. Jinnah fully backed the Viceroy`s declaration of war on behalf of India, unlike the traitorous Congress Party. Its another matter entirely that the subsequent British Labor government preferred to deal with Congress traitors rather than loyalist Muslims. If Churchill had been elected in 1945, history would indeed have been different. But it wasn`t and no amount of PTV propaganda is going to change the fact. Incidentally, the Muslims as a group (with one or two notable exceptions) were the most resistant to the INA and Subash Chander Bose.

Point Two: The future of Kashmir does not belong to the Kashmiris. That is just stupid. Kashmir, for better or worse, is a part of India the same way that E. Pakistan was a part of Pakistan (until the Indians invaded) or the NWFP or Baluchistan is a part of Pakistan. Kashmir is only going to have a say in its own destiny if the Indian government gets tired of the continual low-level insurgency going on there. And since, unlike E. Timor, there are large sections of the original population that fully back Indian rule, and given the strategic importance of Kashmir to India, that is not going to happen.

Since I agreed with the Pakistani Army`s crushing of the Baluch People`s Liberation Front or the Mukhti Bahini (note: I distinguish between the Awami League and the Mukhti Bahini), I cannot criticize the Indian Government`s decision to refuse to accept Kashmir`s right to self-determination.

The original history of the matter is different in so far as Kashmir belongs to India because they had a better organized Army than we did in 1948-49. If those stupid Pathans had managed to keep the naras of their stupid shalwars tied, history might have been different. Unlike Gymnosophist, I cannot agree that India has some sort of a ``moral`` claim. Their claim is simply might makes right. Since they have more might than we or the Muhahideen, they have more right.

However, I do agree with Gymnosophist that Kashmir has been vilely misruled by the Sheikh Abdullah clan. I would only point out that the Indian central government cerainly aided and abetted in this misrule while, at the same time, according Kashmir intermittently more subsidies than the average non-Kashmiri gets. I don`t think that Gymnosophist would disagree with me on this.

So, unless we think that the Pakistani Army can do an E. Pakistan on the Indians, we should shoot the Mujahideen, accept the LOC as the permanent border, tell the Kashmiris to be loyal Indian citizens and get on with trying to rebuild Pakistan. This last would be a better excercise in futility than trying to liberate Kashmir.

PS # 68:

please read appeared on June 29, 2000

thnks

harimau

…you write…As to (#1)…..I have no wish to go through the hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors to prove that point.

…while answering #2 & #3…wonder why you skipped the first when that would have been the easiest to prove or disprove?…I know it is unfair for me to ask you to provide proof every time you say something…rather unfair…and my apologies in advance…

however, here is a helpful hint that will save you the trouble of going through hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors …her first article on chowk appeared on June 29, 2003.(hint begin with #2;))…and don’t overlook #92 or #149 while at it…and the best I save for the last:)...the total is 207 only on her first article!…

rgds,

t

yogiraj

...i have some difficulty in comprehending what you say...what is your question to me?...as for respecting women...if that is the question i respect them all...every religion and relationship...

#30 by temporal on October 13, 2003 1:09pm PT
harimau

T.

I ask you same question I asked another T12345.

Before the angle and GOD decided that Arabia as it is now ..... Your own Prophet actually used to be an employee of a woman.

I know.... I know... Urstruely will tell you it was a lie. Woman is a doormat. God came and told us that.... SET it straight....

So much insecurity?????

What is wrong with your religion. Afraid of your own mother??

I agree.. I agree... You love your mom and sis BUT Urs....Nasq.... will kill ya...

Only men are... GOD set it right.

Tough questions. No answers. Go and hate Harimau...Go and ask Gujrath. Go and ask for Kashmirr. Never ever think what I asked for. Nasq and Usr are there .... Lurking...Watching. They were always there...thousand and few hundred years ago

Yogiraj Patil

Daer Zarine, as long as you keep cursing them, you would continue to be acclaimed by the likes of UrsTruly, who would gladly offer you plenty of AK-47-s and kilos of RDX and perhaps some commando training in sabotage and assasination so that you can vent your grievances against the idea of being an Indian Muslim- an educated Indian Muslim because the likes of us are a slap on the face of these two-nation theorists.
These ribald Islamist are a slur in the name of humanity and enemies of Indian muslims because they are deeply jealous of the freedom of choice (with whatever limitations) that Indian State and constitution provides and they try to deny this fact because it refutes their two-nation thesis of muslims becoming slaves in a country where they would be in minority.
These theocrats only understand nation as a ``natural-given`` as defined in the books, and cannot even grasp the concept of solidarity amonst individuals in a modern democratic multi-ethnic, multi-religious democratic state.
We have to try and not let the likes of Urs truly gain any political space because they are capable of churning out jehadis out of illiterate masses rathar than grooming them up to make substantial contributions to their nation`s economy.The idea of democracy and secularism has enemies lurking in these guys who would love to see their clones in RSS gain importance, because only then they become important- to use the local adage ``Aag mein apni apni roti saikenge``.
The ``idea of strong India`` as a democracy with secular foundations would keep on haunting these Islamist in their dreams till their last day on the earth.Let us not fatten their egos by even listening to what RSS or UrsTuly has to say about other religions and communities.

Romair post 19 `` It is good to see Indians taking interest in Pakistan. ``

Why this hankering for the approval of Indians?
If they want to they will learn. Infact I would say they undestand Pakistan better than Pakistanis themselves do.

Also just by going to concerts of pakistani musicians doesnot enhance undestanding. Goebvles Romair, you need to hone your arguments and marshall facts in a better way. This is pathetic.



``I have always felt that I have to take the initiative in interacting with and socializing with Indians. They rarely take the initiative. Either they are too scared, or don`t know what to say, or don`t feel the need. The only thing they generally know about Pakistan is the Pakistan cricket team. ``

Indians are in onece bitten twice shy mode. The onus is on pakistanis to undestand the current indian stance. I doubt very much is pakistan and pakistanis udestand this. They are living in laa-laa land built round the myth of 1 pakistani is as good as 10 Indians!

``They may love Pakistan, but they are still genuinely convinced that Pakistan is the guilty party. ``

1965, Kargil, the jihaids pumpped into india etc come to mind Romair
Oh BTW you havenot answered my set of questions from a previous thread. I guess you are like the one legged soldier who can only go

left, left, left

Or

right, right right

and never march left, right, left! ;-)

One them and one theme only.

And you still go on begging - but then I guess moving from army to civilian life, and then to US and then afte 9/11 on to Canada - does this -

``I think if Indians do make an effort to learn about Pakistan, ``

See it is the pakistanis who have a problem. If only the education in pakistan was correct then the pakistanis would not be a bunch of deluded disillusioned people. It is pakistan which has to learn about India and bharata not the other way round. Ofcourse pakistan thinks it is the direct descendent of the loins of arabs - then surely Indians need to learn about this new thing.

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Ref nb #56

[harimau, I can think of lots of people who sound as if,forget about being laid,they haven`t set eyes on a woman ever since they were in college....no one seems unduly concerned about their sexual activity. Why all this interest people have(not you,I don`t remember you ever having said that) in whether Farzana gets laid or not, I don`t know.]

Your points are very valid. But what I find objectionable about Ali1`s statement -- not that I don`t have violent disagreements with Farzana Versey myself -- is the denigration of a woman for BEING a woman. Unless that mindset changes and we are able to treat women on a par with men, we should not consider ourselves `liberated`.

Ref veeresh #46

[Hi Zarine . . . thank you for another interesting article . . . just out of curiosity, were you ever, in the course of your travels especially up North, called a ``Madrasi`` as different from a ``Malloo``? And if so, did you take umbrage or did you leave it to the other person`s ignorance or did you try to correct the other person? Or any other reaction?]

Ref stuka #59

[There is no Kerala regiment BTW. Mallus who join infantry (which has community based regiments as opposed to Armor, Arty etc.) join the Madras regiment.]

Thank you for proving my point about Tamil Nadu being the hegemon of South India.

Ref Urstruly #57

[Isn`t it super? Farzana Versey is a fair game for any Indian just because one insensitive clod who happens to be a Pakistani, expressed his uncouth comments about her?]

Nope. Farzana is fair game for the comments she makes about India, Indians, etc. We don`t need people who constantly whine and whinge. For every rabblerouser like Farzana, there a hundred people who do constructive things for society, helping the downtrodden -- be they Hindu or Muslim.

[I don`t understand the connection.]

We don`t expect you to so it is okay.

[Instead, the abuse and the insults that are hurled towards Farzana everytime she writes on chowk, go way back before this individual opened his mouth.]

I don`t think she got much abuse for that recent write-up on the Pope. On the other hand, talking about a `true azadi` Kashmir makes Indians see red.

[No one needs a DSL connection to prove that.]

In your case, you don`t connect anything with anything else so a DSL connection, I agree, isn`t going to help.

#57 Urstruly

Buzz off, you shameless sectarian crocodile !! Your hate-filled rants are only too well known to us. For those who may have missed the depths of your recent depravity: this *person* (not sure if he deserves such a lofty description) recently suggested that murder of ahmedias in Pakistan is OK because they are after all apostates.

and now he has the cheek to join this conversation....

There is no Kerala regiment BTW. Mallus who join infantry (which has community based regiments as opposed to Armor, Arty etc.) join the Madras regiment.

Faruk:

``Most Muslims killed in Kargil were from JKLI which has a large number of Muslims.``

Hmm, actually, the most number of Muslims killed were from the Grenadiers which recruit in UP predominantly. The JKLI has a mix of Muslims, Dogras and some Ladakhis as well. The JKLI did take part in initial assaults bt the other regiments you mentioned actually had a bigger role.

I am sure most Indians are familiar with the most famous of Grenadiers: Havildar Major Abdul Hameed PVC Posthomous.

Isn`t it super? Farzana Versey is a fair game for any Indian just because one insensitive clod who happens to be a Pakistani, expressed his uncouth comments about her? I don`t understand the connection. Instead, the abuse and the insults that are hurled towards Farzana everytime she writes on chowk, go way back before this individual opened his mouth. No one needs a DSL connection to prove that.