Of Curiosity, Optimism and Hope

re:#117 by gujjubania
You seem to be an admirer of Modi and i hate Modi and his kind of people. So, there is not much in common between you and me.
Two wrongs do not make a right. If killing of innocent people in that fated train by a mob was wrong, the killing of innocent civilians, actively aided by the local police and civic adminstration, with Modi looking the other way, was doubly wrong.
Sridhar

re: article 118

``We mingled with the mainstream and what did we get?`` asks Dr. Shehnaz Shaikh. ``Humiliation and rejection. Let these children grow to be proud and confident Muslims first. Only then will they be able to integrate well. Islam teaches us to be tolerant towards other faiths. I guarantee our students will never be instigated to violence by politicians.``
The above sentence is a harbinger of times to come, when muslims in India would find it difficult to integrate with the rest of the society. Instead of studying with the majority and keeping religion personal and teaching religion at home, these schools are doing the very opposite: inculcating a seperate identity for muslim children, an identity that will clash with the larger identity of the majority community. In nutshell, such schools do no good.
Sridhar

Will these schools produce enlightened leaders for tomorrow`s India?



Back to their roots

Alarmed by the blunting of their identity in mainstream schools, the newer ``Islamic-English`` schools now aim to produce a radically different generation of Muslims: English-speaking, academically on a par with the best, and thoroughly Islamic in conduct and appearance. JYOTI PUNWANI examines this trend.

REUTERS

THEY sing ``A for Allah, B for Bismillah``; run around their classrooms properly covered from head to toe, know Arabic almost as well as they do English, don`t watch TV but are familiar with the most advanced general knowledge books and CDs.

Say ``Salaam Aleikum!`` to the first batch of toddlers to enrol in Mumbai`s four ``Islamic`` English schools started over the last two years. Combining the study of Islam with a regular academic curriculum, these schools aim to produce a radically different generation of Muslims: English-speaking, academically on par with the best, and thoroughly Islamic in conduct and appearance.

Housed on one or sometimes two floors of old buildings in the city`s Muslim quarter, they have yet to acquire a fully qualified staff, run only till Std. II or III, haven`t yet got official recognition, but are already turning away applicants.

Their USP is their irresistible combination of religious and secular education. Most Muslim children start learning the Quran by age seven, and almost all of them end up resenting this additional burden, which cuts into their limited play/rest time, and makes little sense to them. In these new schools, Arabic is taught from nursery, to enable children to understand the Quran instead of merely learning it by rote and then ``putting it away on a shelf, forgotten,`` as Dr. Shehnaz Shaikh puts it. But it wasn`t just this belated homecoming that prompted her to risk starting the Al Mu`minah Girls High School, where her younger daughter joins 124 others in singing ``Be careful little eyes what you see, as Allah is watching you``. The frequent taunts faced by her elder daughter in one of Mumbai`s best-known English schools, brought back bitter memories. ``Why don`t you go to Pakistan?`` was just one of the many jibes Dr. Shaikh grew up with in prestigious Delhi and Lucknow convents.

Gulf-returned and unemployed Mehmood, had a ``burning desire`` to see his youngest daughter as a student of the neighbourhood convent. Despite the principal`s insulting ``Why do you keep coming here? Go to your Muslim schools!`` he paid Rs. 5000 to an ``agent`` for admission. But when his three-year-old had to stand out in the sun as punishment for coming to school with mehndi on her hands after Eid, Mehmood decided it was time to try out the new Islamic school mentioned by the local Imam in his Friday sermon, even if it meant losing a year.

Today, he looks on thrilled as his little ``Dadimaa`` (grandmother) reproves him for indulging in the haraam activity of watching TV (``I`ve explained to her it`s only the news``), and puts on her scarf at the sound of the azaan. Businessman Altaf bhai got rid of his TV years ago, but feels helpless about his convent-going teenaged daughter`s easy familiarity with her male classmates. He tried for a reputed girls` convent, but his appearance — cap, beard and pyjama-kurta — and that of his burqah-clad wife, were enough to reject his application. So when fellow businessman Suhail Shaikh started the first Islamic English school in Mumbai, the Al-Jamia-Tul-Fikriya Islamic School, on one floor of a semi-constructed building, Altaf bhai`s extended family enrolled all their six infants. The school has since moved to a better location, but classes are only till Std. III and cost Rs. 2,000 a month.

However, the joy of being corrected by his five-year-old whenever he deliberately falters over his bedtime prayers is compensation enough for Altaf bhai. The ``Islamic`` meals provided by the school: boiled eggs, milk, fruit and biscuits, eaten seated on the floor in ``Islamic`` style; the burqah-clad teachers (including non-Muslims) and the advanced science and geography textbooks brought out by the school, are a bonus.

A convent product himself, Shaikh neither wanted his son to recite the Christian prayer nor bow before the idol of Saraswati every morning. So he began his own school in his office with his son as his first student, and his Christian secretary the first teacher. Today, the parents of his 200 students willingly comply with his only condition: getting rid of their TV sets.

It`s obvious that the existing English schools have failed to meet the complex needs of today`s Muslims. Those tolerant enough to admit first generation learners, or children of ``typical Muslims``, are either too Westernised, strengthening, rather than countering, the worst effects of mass media on impressionable minds, or are too Hinduised. Rues Shahabuddin Shaikh, founder-principal of Safa English School (a/c classrooms, no songs), ``Our kids in UP know more about the Ramayan than about the Quran.``

Either way, they blunt the Muslim identity, more under siege after Gujarat than ever before. Many Muslims today want a school where their children can be themselves, as can Hindu/Christian children, where ``students are free to express Islamic attitudes and behaviour, proudly and openly``. This promise made by the Islamic International School, comes at Rs. 48,000-plus a year and is not available to parents who don`t wear the hijaab or pray five times, who refuse to learn English or cut off their cable connection.

But while existing English schools can be faulted for making the country`s largest minority feel excluded (most celebrate Diwali and Christmas but not Eid), the new schools run the risk of ghettoising Muslim children. So caught up are they in moulding their clay into ``true Muslims`` for whom education has been ordained as a religious duty, so keen to produce a generation who, while looking unashamedly like ``typical Muslims``, will destroy the stereotype of the ``typical Muslim``, that these schools seem to have forgotten their very raison d` etre: the vast, many-hued world that exists outside their classrooms.



Singing ``Be careful little eyes`` at the Al Mu`minah School, Mumbai.

Only Bangalore`s Oasis International School, the first such school in India, started in 1997, has this world firmly in mind. ``A community`s survival and acceptance in a pluralistic society, depends not only on its ability to preserve its identity, but also to a large extent on its capacity to contribute to society,`` says founder Ayesha Masood. Though catering mainly to Muslims, who are taught Arabic and the Quran, Oasis does not call itself an Islamic school, and has separate value education classes for its non-Muslim children, based on their own scriptures. Of all these schools, Oasis is the only one that has the national anthem sung during the weekly assembly.

Most of the Mumbai schools don`t give more than a day off for Diwali or Christmas, if that, preferring to give their students time off during Ramzan and Eid.

One college lecturer withdrew her child for that reason alone, since their holidays didn`t coincide, and they could not visit grandparents together. Another lawyer-doctor couple withdrew their daughter after three months, not wanting to deprive her of the ``National Geographic`` channel, and worried that she wouldn`t be able to interact with non-Muslims once she reached college.

A Muslim teacher at one of these schools prefers to send her own children to a regular school, because she doesn`t have the time to supplement the learning they would receive in the Islamic school. ``I would have to take them to bookshops for the normal children`s books, and teach them the normal nursery rhymes, so that they don`t stand out among their friends.``

But the schools remain unfazed by such reactions. They believe most of the problems of Indian Muslims arise from not following Islam correctly, and they would be happy if all faiths, including Hindus, ran similar schools for their own children. Intermingling can take place through joint inter-school programmes, they say, and there`s a whole lifetime for kids to meet others. ``Mingling with others, we forgot our own ways,`` laughs Shahabuddin Shaikh.

``We mingled with the mainstream and what did we get?`` asks Dr. Shehnaz Shaikh. ``Humiliation and rejection. Let these children grow to be proud and confident Muslims first. Only then will they be able to integrate well. Islam teaches us to be tolerant towards other faiths. I guarantee our students will never be instigated to violence by politicians.``

``Islam says we are all part of one human family, children of one father and mother. This is what we teach our students,`` points out Suhail Shaikh. ``Our aim is not to build a good Muslim student alone, but a good Indian student.``

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re: Paki and Paki`s ``mai baap``

Just when Pakis in this forum are trying to convince everyone how much they care for the Indian muslims, their own ``mai baap`` from Saudi Arabia has snubbed them.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=319591

re:#53 by Urstruly
``And it is the gazillionth time that I am trying to get my point across that sanctity of human life is not a hindu value, or Muslim value, or Nazi value, or Eskimo value......it is a human value.``
Agreed, mullahji.
Now, let me ask you a question. Did not the partition of India on religious basis result in so much bloodshed and loss of human life, which you claim you value so much? Why do you Pakis not accept that as a mistake to begin with? When you look around, you do not see christians, buddhists, jains, sikhs, Parsees in India suffer the trauma of Partition so much as the muslims (mostly North Indian) have. Does this tell you something, my dear mullah?
What was Pakistan meant for? Why are Shias and Sunnis killing each other in your country? Why are Ahmedias not accepted as muslims? If it was a country for muslims, how come India has more muslims than Pak? And how come there is so much sectarian strife in your country?
Ms Habeeb, as i said in my last post, has not been tainted by hatred, so she would not know answers to above questions. If she wants to know the real Pakistan, she needs to seek answer to the above questions. Pakistan is not just another country. At its present form (with Army ruling over the country and mullahs on the rampage), it is India`s ideological enemy.
For a South Indian like me, even the very basic question ``Was Pakistan really necessary?`` has not been answered.
Sridhar

#77 by Urstruly

``...Let me be very blunt here when I tell you that there is nothing more dear to me than my country....``
Mullahji,
Which country are you talking about? I thought you lived in USA. Have they deported you?
Sridhar

re:#21 by Urstruly
Dear Mullahji,
The difference between Farzana bibi and Ms Habeeb is this: latter is a South Indian muslim, not yet tainted by the hatred and prejudice that has been instilled into the minds of North Indian muslims like Farzana bibi. Also, she comes from a highly literate state where even the mosques and temples look alike from outside and where a muslim dresses like anyother malayalee. Religion has never been a big issue in Kerala or for that matter in the whole of South India.
Kerala, my dear mullah, is very different from rest of the subcontinent and there is much to learn from people of that state. I feel proud to be called a South Indian along with Ms Habeeb. More power to her.
And why is Kerala so different? Go to the following Url to learn more.
I assure you Mullahji, this article will be a revelation to you. You would soon realise how regressive you Pakis really are.
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2009/stories/20030509000106600.htm
Excerpts:

`` In Kerala, things are quite different. There are few signs of this ``cultural chasm`` that is so apparent in other regions and countries. Hindus, Muslims and Christians appear to live in harmony with each other as communities. Not only is there very little inter-religious rivalry, the different communities even share for their respective religious festivals paraphernalia such as decorated umbrellas, musicians and even elephants. The local Hindu temple priest would suspend his prayer sessions to allow the muezzin at the mosque to be heard, before resuming his amplified chants. All this is accomplished without word or gesture. It is simple common sense here. Why fight if you can cooperate?

In Kerala, Islam is not the `enemy`, it is not even the `difficult one`; it is just another belief system, a different faith, and nothing special. Hindu, Muslim and Christian children and young people easily make friends with each other. They attend school together, play games with each other, and later do business together. Intermarriage is not unknown. Each morning, Muslim fishermen visit the local teashop run by their Hindu neighbour, to chat and exchange stories after a hard night`s work. Christian fishermen are not excluded.

Mosques rise majestically amid lush coconut palms, often perched atop red-and-pink cliffs overlooking the blue waters of the Arabian Sea; facing Mecca. Some mosques are pure white, while others with their pastel shades of pink and blue, contrast with the more traditional Islamic green. All have a mystique, surrounded by lush tropical beauty, unimagined even in the great deserts of Prophet Muhammad`s Arabia. ``
Sridhar

re:#38 by rsaxena

``..weren`t you running around with a hard-on after arundhati roy did just that?...``
Man, that was funny!
Sridhar

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109

nb: I do not follow all articles and interacts on Chowk. I read this article with interest and it`s a very personal perspective as the article suggests. I am just surprised that why the readers would start dissecting personal perspectives as if someone tried to chant gospel truth in their ears and asked them to follow that truth blindly. Simple...

And,Zahra,this is new???Just when I had thought people were going to leave certain very strange other people alone...

The strangest part about this article under discussion is that the interactors are tweaking the context.

#102 by Fosa on October 15, 2003 11:52am PT

Fosa dear, can you suggest the nominees from PAkistan who represent the Indian Muslims????
I have great respects for UrsTruly for atleast standing up against the Dictators- but he has to expand his vision of humanity and not compartmentalize the world like literal Islamists do into believers/non-believers, idolators/non-idolators because in real life situations I have seen great believers showing utter mis-faith in God in various situations they went through and I have also seen self professed non-idolators behaving like idolators towards ``images``, ``icons`` and ``symbols`` of satan in the form of ``dollars``.

As regards Foza`s delusions about becoming the leading spokesman of muslim ummah let me clarify that Indian muslims have a very clear understanding of PAki muslim elite`s games. They have repeatedly asked the Pakistani muslim elites to refrain from publically voicing concern about their problems and training the ignorant amonst them in subversion and terrorist methods through incitement. The Paki muslims must realize that the Indian Shias or Ahmedis avoid meddling with the dreadful experiments that is going on in Pakistan, the PURELAND. THey just want the guys like Foza and Musharaff to shut up and try to resolve the problems of their own co-religious brothers in the streets and villages of Pakistan, they have repeatedly asked them not to try and act as self appointed spokes-persons to Indian muslims just to score some points in their own domestic territory. Just by disparaging the successful amongst Indian muslims like Nafisa Ali. M.J.Akbar or APJ Kalam because they have come out of the blinkers that TNT-s wants them to put would not make any difference to their standing in the Indian context!!
I hope the message is clear!

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01082002/01082002049.htm

hamidm #91 ``i don`t give a flip about indian muslims and as far as i can recollect i don`t know anyone who does``

we got maudoodi from india, and zia from india and musharaff from india. together they screwed up pakistan. we also got myself (at least my parents) from india, and i fixed it (on chowk).

anyway, i know what you mean. bengalis used to hate west pakistanis before 1971 when we were one country, now they love us. distance makes the heart grow fonder. best for indian muslims to love us from a distance. come to close and they join MQM.

[The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence; the longer you keep on giving it a facade of all that good stuff that you call democracy, tolerrance and such other alien concepts, the more malignant it becomes.]

[Happy? ]

Not at all! I was about to analyze a few excerpts from your previous write-up, of which the above were a few lines that made me wonder who wrote those ideas. No offense intended, but I was very disappointed to read what I read. Please go back and review your last post with the above passage. You seem to have misjudged the intellect of your reader :( That was a big disappointment! Being light-hearted/humorous/shararti is one thing. I did not find any traces of the above in your previous post. To give you the benefit of doubt, did you really mean what you wrote in the above post ?

[Lately, every other guy on Chowk needs to be given the benefit of doubt. Disappointing Male Interactors! Haif Sud Haif...]

By the most curious of coincidences, I am sitting down tonight with a bunch of South Indians who lived in pre-Partition Karachi!

The two families who are yakking used to live in a building called Hari Building (not Hari Niwas, they were sure about it). Hari Building had about 32 flats and the entire complex was rented by a South Indian group including Tamiians, Malayalees, Kannadigas and Telugus. They (and I) looked at photos taken of the family in 1941 Karachi (sorry, only studio shots, no street scenes). They talked about how they went as 15-year-old brides to Karachi and spent about 10 years before returning to ``India``; how they used to go to the South Indian Association, the proud possessor of a radio, which on Saturday evenings at 7:30pm would be tuned to a classical music broadcast (nobody could afford radios in those days so the Association had the one radio for community use!).

One of them moved out to Bunder Road to a house just in front of the Gymkhana. At least one person, born in Karachi, is nostalgic about the city and wants to visit the place of her birth! They all wonder if they would recognize any part of Karachi today.

The mode of transport? By ship from Bombay. About 24 hours. Better than the train from Bombay requiring transfers at Ahmedabad, Marwar (?) and Hyderabad (Sind, I presume).

Descendants are strewn about in Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Canada and the US.

Just when you think that the connection is only between North Indians and Pakistan!

Arjun, those interested,

I scanned over the link you provided (post #98), and felt a few comments are in order:

1) Ahmadi-Muslims do not view other Muslims as non-Muslim … despite our differences in understanding of Islam.

2) Mullahs have embellished Zafrullah Sahib’s refusal to join in at Jinnah’s funeral prayers. They use this event to suggest that Ahmadis harbor hatred for Muslims, Jinnah, and Pakistan, etc. The real reason for Zafrullah Sahib’s refusal is conveniently ignored by the mullahs.

Zafrullah Sahib refused to join in, at the last moment, upon discovering that the prayer was led by a staunch anti-Ahmadi mullah (I think it was Maulana Shabir Usmani) … who had earlier stated that Ahmadis should be killed for their beliefs. Accepting leadership of such a person in prayers would have been tantamount to endorsing his views.

BTW, Ahmadi-Muslim Community has fond memories of Jinnah. No doubt, he was a man of unquestionable integrity and noble character … and a Muslim of the highest caliber.

3) We do not believe that Mirza Sahib is necessarily the last prophet of Allah. Coming of future prophets remains a possibility … which is consistent with the message of Islam.

Reg100:
Please mail me at sasi@itwm.fhg.de

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Dear Ms.Habeeb,

Some of my friends are trying to bring out a magazine (malayalam) from Delhi and would be grateful if you could contribute.
Can I have your mail id?
You can mail me at cksarath@indiatimes.com.
regards
Sarath

This board could already be dead!
Still some thingsI have observed....
Religious muslims of India view Pakistan in a different way than the Hindus do..
Most of them have th same attitude as the author .
Some love Pakistan so much so that they want the Pak cricket team to win at times..
And the even few fringe group, those who hate India..
This group is constituted mainly by those who have turned failures in life to hatred and the clever guys who sees money in being anti Indian.
No sane person would have anything against the first group and the third group is also understood to some level.
But in general people cant stand the second group and I`d say they are much misunderstood.
What is the thin line that divides a patriot from a traitor?
As a hindu its very difficult for me to understand this.But as I have a friend who belongs to this second group I know that he loves India with all its `kafirs`.
How easily we tend to turn all these grey areas into black and white!
PS:
I come from Kerala and these observations are very regional
PPS:
About nonreligious muslims of Kerala..most of them are marxists and all the best humanists .

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#94 by ZahraJ on October 14, 2003 9:00pm PT
Ustruly #77:

[The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence, the longer you keep on giving it a good face of democracy, tolerrance and all that good stuff, the more malignant it becomes.]

?

Alright, alright......I rephrase it,........ you grammarians:

The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence; the longer you keep on giving it a facade of all that good stuff that you call democracy, tolerrance and such other alien concepts, the more malignant it becomes.

Happy?

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#94 by ZahraJ on October 14, 2003 9:00pm PT
Ustruly #77:

[The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence, the longer you keep on giving it a good face of democracy, tolerrance and all that good stuff, the more malignant it becomes.]

It is simple, this guy is a TNT and wants all the Indian muslims to acknowledge this that they cannot live at peace with anyone else but Paki muslims. He wants every Indian muslim to start armed Jihad against his non-muslim negihbours so that every Indian gets killed- it is plain incitement and hatred that is speaking. This guy is a pervert to the core.

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Ustruly #77:

[The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence, the longer you keep on giving it a good face of democracy, tolerrance and all that good stuff, the more malignant it becomes.]

?

UrsTruly,

You are just another closet jihadi out on a suicide mission. The only difference between you and Atta Mohammad is that your suicide mission aims at intellectually and politically destroying all the the ``ideas`` of freedom other than those propounded by the Islamists theocrats. You would like to do your jihadi bit on the chowk by first attacking the secularists so that the ground is clear for the conventional jihadi bit with your clones and counterparts from other religions and communities.
The world has started understanding the Schizophrenic visions of mullahs like you and now have started giving it all back to you with contempt and disdain. Your days are numbered- and you are treated like a phariah by the world!! You will keep on slipping into your Schizophrenic misgivings of creating another ````PureLand```` out of this beautiful multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-linguistic world untill you annihilate yourself into oblivion.

............ this might not be a politically correct thing to say, but personally i don`t give a flip about indian muslims and as far as i can recollect i don`t know anyone who does........... i find them to be rather irritating with their constant whining about this or that and their silly attempts to identify with pakis ............. we have enough troubles of our own ............ shoo! .... just go away and leave us alone .................. and you can keep your silly behkary baigan and that insipd red tomato paste .and stop wagging your curly heads ........ it is only on the unreal world of chowk that i find people discussing malyalam speaking muslims .......... what the heck is malyalam ???? ......... who cares?.........the only indian muslims we care about are the kashmiris because we love their ugly carved wooden boxes inlaid with cheap white plastic that they try to pass off as ivory .............

#89 by dost-mittar on October 14, 2003 5:10pm PT
Some welcome introspection by common men:


Ban yatra, say Godhra victims

Yes!! Yes!! These guys like the VHP, RSS and the likes of UrsTruly who peddle in incitement and make a living out of selling wares for killing people in the name of religion should be stripped and lashed in public.

Some welcome introspection by common men:


Ban yatra, say Godhra victims

New Delhi Oct. 14: In an unusual plea, relatives of Godhra victims have written to Uttar Pradesh chief minister Mulayam Singh Yadav and Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani to ban Ayodhya-type rallies, beginning with the VHP’s yatra for a Ram temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya.

“Our country and the Indian polity has been held ransom to this politico-religious mobilisation for over almost two decades now and this must stop. We apprehend that this yatra will also lead to a cycle of communal violence and cause heightened insecurity among the minority communities all of which will further vitiate the surcharged atmosphere in the country,” the appeal states.

The four signatories have all lost their wives in the Godhra tragedy, having been burnt alive in the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express.

One of them, 82-year-old Girishbhai Rawal, lost his wife Sudhaben in the ill-fated train, while his son Ashwinbhai, the local Bajrang Dal president, was stabbed to death on April 16 last year at Ramol.

In an emotional affidavit Rawal has spoken out against the politics of communal violence saying, “After 19 months of loss, I say and submit that I feel that me and my entire family, as also other victims of the Godhra tragedy, have been made sacrificial goats by the VHP in their political game.” He said his wife participated in the yatra thinking it to be a religious activity, and that his family has sentiments “that are part and parcel of the VHP/BJP’s politics.”

Rawal, left alone in his grief, said that the families of Godhra victims were used by “the VHP and BJP to amass crores of rupees, here and abroad, and also win the last elections.” He said that the Godhra tragedy was used to justify the “murders” at Naroda and Best Bakery.

“Fifty-nine people burnt in Godhra and 2,500 people massacred all over Gujarat. Who has done all these things, and who has benefited from all these things,” he asked. Rawal said if the government was not willing to intervene to ban such yatras the courts should take necessary action.

Others who have signed the appeal, include 40-year-old Bharatbhai Panchal, who lost his wife Jyotiben, Sharadbhai Mhatre, 42, who lost his wife Malaben and Prakashbhai Chodagar, 35, who lost his wife Nilimaben in the train tragedy.

The appeal to the political leaders has been sent through a NGO, Citizens for Justice and Peace, with the signatories also urging the Supreme Court to take “direct and personal interest in Godhra and other investigations.”

They have also asked the court to look into the question of funds that were collected in the name of the Godhra tragedy. “Cassettes and CDs were made, T-shirts were distributed, all circling around the death of 59 persons in the S-6 coach of the Sabaramati Express,” they have pointed out.

The appeal expresses concern about the possibility of violence in the wake of the Ayodhya yatra, maintaining that such rallies only serve political purposes and have “the searing impact of ripping apart the centuries old harmony and secularism of the Indian society, which is also the basic structure and part of the Constitution.”

The relatives have urged both Mulayam and Advani to ensure that yatras and agitations of this kind are stopped, and that there is no outbreak of violence or disruption of law and order.

#77 by urstruly....

..... on one of the posters in the chowk... Urstruly was aptly labelled... ma$0chist....
....no... you won`t get it.. not now.. not from me.. not here....

Guys(and Gals.. aware of feminists around)... lets deprive him of it... for a change may be we say.. How true indeed!!! for all that is posted by Urstruly...

Good article. There are plenty of fools in the subcontinent. But far, far more sensible people like you. You were born and raised in India, and as such your first obligation is to be a good citizen towards, and contribute, towards the immediate community you live in (regardless of religion). As a good Indian citizen, you will also be a friend of Pakistan. This may sound paradoxical to many on chowk who think of this as an either-or proposition. In fact, the fact is that there are divisive individuals and there are inclusive individuals.

As for this cricket loyalties, I still dont understand how grown men can treat cricket as if it was a life and death struggle. It is just a game. When I was in Bangladesh a few years ago and my Bengaldeshi colleagues told me how thrilled they were that the Pakistan team had beat India, I told them the same thing. BOTH sides win when they play cricket - the fact that one side makes more runs than the other means nothing.

Ms Habeeb:
Nice article. You have become a top contender for the Miss Congeniality award on this site. I had always thought that in Kerala the linguistic-cultural-caste identities were stronger than religious identities. It seems however that the communal virus has lately travelled down south. While I was aware of Muslims being frequently referred to as Pakistanis in North India, I am surprised that this happens down south as well.
If muslims from south of Hyderabad (and south indians in general) took little interest in Pakistan, it was because of the lack of cultural/linguistic links that add an emotional content to the love-hate relationships between the two countries. I think the Kashmir insurgency and, more recently, Gujarat has changed that. With the Indian identity steadily replacing regional and other identities in the wake of large-scale mobility and satellite television, it is natural that religious identities that cut across regional/linguistic boundaries would also become more pronounced.
Hope to hear more from you! We will all benefit from reading different perspectives of the Muslim Indian experience and identity.

Stuka:
One can learn a lot from the way the Marad incident was handled and contrast it with the Godhra/Ahmedabad episode. After Godhra, the media almost started blaming the victims, by calling them militant hindu activists and of provoking the incident. This naturally added fuel to the anger of the Hindus upset by that brutal and obviously pre-planned attack on the train. In Marad, by contrast, the national press more or less ignored the event while the local press laid the blame where it squarely belonged. This was especially true of the secular press, such as The Hindu.

The contrast in the government reaction and its effect is also noteworthy. The Chief Minister, Antony, lost no time in trying to wipe the tears off the victims and starting a manhunt for the perpetrators of the crime. At the same time, the police was sent on spot with clear instructions to avoid any counter-attacks on Muslims. Thus a backlash was avoided.

sattar #84

You have put everything I have been emphasizing so well.

ANYTHING that leads to, or MAY HELP lead to a society where murderers who believe their god wants to murder followers of other religions or `blasphemers` MUST be opposed.

Keeping quiet out of a sense of political correctness is NOT AN OPTION.

When someone comes to you with a noose for your neck because you have `blasphemed` there IS NO SCOPE FOR TOLERANCE OF THE NOOSE OR RELIGION.

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Urstruly,

As someone correctly pointed out … you mullahs too have bloody hands. Ironically, instead of being bothered by it, you proudly justify it, and look for ways to perpetuate and elevate this bloodshed.

You condemn anti-Muslim violence in India and Kashmir. At the same time, you aspire to create an “Islamic State” where apostates will be killed for merely leaving Islam. In essence … a Christian, Hindu, or an Ahmadi … will be killed … and should be killed … for merely becoming a Christian, a Hindu, or an Ahmadi, in this State.

You justify this violence by claiming that it is required by your god …and therefore you have the duty to kill others over such disagreements. Very convenient!

In your latest post (#77) you commented that one`s insecurities makes him dangerous. Apparently some self-analysis is long overdue.

Urstruly #77

a- ``A country is secure internally and externally when its people are secure. So by this logic an insecure Hindu is as dangerous to Pakistan as some threat with in Pakistan. ``
b - ``A hindu who is not secure about his religion, about his history, and about his values is not only a danger to himself but all those people who are close to him.``

True.

Also, b above can be a universal statement... equally true if ``Hindu`` is replaced by ``individual`` irrespective of religion.
Also true if that ``individual`` is YOU.

Think about it.

Zarine

I loved your assertion about the `idea of India.`

If one`s approach is right then all problems can be managed and minimized, if not completely eliminated. No utopia has ever existed. Nowhere have all problems ever been or can be solved. By our attitude we can either increase or decrease the number of problems that remain insoluble. It`s another matter that people can be enticed with the promise of utopia, or encouraged to demand it, primarily as a form of weapon against others.

One standard tool in the hands of fascists has always been the incitement of people. Much of the violence arises when people are told how bad a deal they are getting. Ironically, such people themselves offer far less to others.

Urstruly # 77

This was meant as a joke from an Islamist, right?

Dear Zarine:

When one of the most balanced and from the heart article touches people wrong way, we can say that the first and in my view the worst common denominator in India, is certailly religion. It is so deep part of the turf that we fail to see all damaging realities of religious forces. Much as that last cell of cancer in the body, or pockets of racism in America. Fortunately, the society in America is furiously attacks symbols for racist comments, be it Rush Limabugh`s recent comment or Senator Trent Lott`s comments. Indian society must similarly become relentless in rooting out, this first and the worst common denominator`s negative role. I have faith in gathering economic forces in India to reduce its negative pressure points in India, education alone gets modulated by economic pressures.

ANIL KAPURIA

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Ms. Habeeb

You see what I meant. I hope, by now you must have checked the quality of interacts by your fellow countrymen on Farzana Versey`s boards also. You might think that this guy has some penchant for bringing out the worst in people. May be so. But if one uses his common sense he will know that I am doing a great favor to us all, who share the subcontinent. Let me be very blunt here when I tell you that there is nothing more dear to me than my country. A country is not an isolated entity; unlike men it cannot isolate itself and start a life of a hermit. A country has to stay in the community of nations and do its part. But a country is made up of people. A country is secure internally and externally when its people are secure. So by this logic an insecure Hindu is as dangerous to Pakistan as some threat with in Pakistan. A hindu who is not secure about his religion, about his history, and about his values is not only a danger to himself but all those people who are close to him. A hindu who is mired in inferiority complex to a degree that he compares the minutest and most irrelevant things is not only a nuissence but a threat. This insecurity will not go away by itself. It is a cancer that eats inside out. The longer you delay to acknowledge its existence, the longer you keep on giving it a good face of democracy, tolerrance and all that good stuff, the more malignant it becomes.

As a virtual visitor, you have showed us your interest in us; we are grateful for that, but when you come see us to know more about us, please leave your pre-conceived notions, your prejudices, and your insecurities behind. It is good for twain people.

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Ref temporal #68

[harimau

…you write…As to (#1)…..I have no wish to go through the hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors to prove that point.

…while answering #2 & #3…wonder why you skipped the first when that would have been the easiest to prove or disprove?…I know it is unfair for me to ask you to provide proof every time you say something…rather unfair…and my apologies in advance…]

I interpreted Point #1 as ``Was Ali1 the first person to suggest what Ms. Versey needs?`` If so, then I would have to go through every post by every interactor, don`t you think? And I think Ali1`s comment was out of the blue as you can see from his post which I quoted in its entirety. By the way, it is these kinds of bad comments that stick to my memory better and so I was glad to find that my memory hadn`t failed me.

Anyway, it was all in fun. Reading Ali1`s early posts was pure entertainment! Thanks for giving me that opportunity!

Difference between Zarine and Farzana :

Zarine = an objective analysis of Indian muslim identity

Farzana = Whine, Cry me a river, whine more, cry me an ocean, bwaaaah..... bwaaaahhhh...

.is there a reason temporal starts prancing around as soon as farzana versey is mentioned by anyone, anywhere?...what kind of a loser keeps track of threads from 3 years ago?...qualifies for stalking....

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Temporal:

Thank you for putting up that article by Farzana. It was a trip down memory lane, reading posts by interactors long gone as well as those still here.

I am reposting a submission made by Fuzair, a man for whom my respect grows every time I read his stuff, not because he is ``pro-Indian`` or anything, but because he has the ability to grasp the basics of a situation and to logically differentiate between pros and cons. Also, I think he is ex Army though he has never given details about length of Service, which branch he was in etc.

Tthis is for old time`s sake...and I do not want to divert the discussion away from the original article though I fear that has already been done. Ofcourse it just goes to show that Fuzair had nothing better to do on a 4th of July holiday then to pound out posts on Chowk...

:)

#83 by fuzair on July 4, 2000 1:42am PT
Whole lot of fighting going on here. I think that in this case I would have to side with Gymnosophist here (although I do not wholly agree with him on many aspects). But still, I would rather be a Muslim in India than a Christian in Pakistan. And heaven help me if I am a Hindu in Pakistan.

Point One: There was no Pakistani freedom movement worth talking about. The only anti-British Muslims were Congressites. Don`t forget, Mr. Jinnah fully backed the Viceroy`s declaration of war on behalf of India, unlike the traitorous Congress Party. Its another matter entirely that the subsequent British Labor government preferred to deal with Congress traitors rather than loyalist Muslims. If Churchill had been elected in 1945, history would indeed have been different. But it wasn`t and no amount of PTV propaganda is going to change the fact. Incidentally, the Muslims as a group (with one or two notable exceptions) were the most resistant to the INA and Subash Chander Bose.

Point Two: The future of Kashmir does not belong to the Kashmiris. That is just stupid. Kashmir, for better or worse, is a part of India the same way that E. Pakistan was a part of Pakistan (until the Indians invaded) or the NWFP or Baluchistan is a part of Pakistan. Kashmir is only going to have a say in its own destiny if the Indian government gets tired of the continual low-level insurgency going on there. And since, unlike E. Timor, there are large sections of the original population that fully back Indian rule, and given the strategic importance of Kashmir to India, that is not going to happen.

Since I agreed with the Pakistani Army`s crushing of the Baluch People`s Liberation Front or the Mukhti Bahini (note: I distinguish between the Awami League and the Mukhti Bahini), I cannot criticize the Indian Government`s decision to refuse to accept Kashmir`s right to self-determination.

The original history of the matter is different in so far as Kashmir belongs to India because they had a better organized Army than we did in 1948-49. If those stupid Pathans had managed to keep the naras of their stupid shalwars tied, history might have been different. Unlike Gymnosophist, I cannot agree that India has some sort of a ``moral`` claim. Their claim is simply might makes right. Since they have more might than we or the Muhahideen, they have more right.

However, I do agree with Gymnosophist that Kashmir has been vilely misruled by the Sheikh Abdullah clan. I would only point out that the Indian central government cerainly aided and abetted in this misrule while, at the same time, according Kashmir intermittently more subsidies than the average non-Kashmiri gets. I don`t think that Gymnosophist would disagree with me on this.

So, unless we think that the Pakistani Army can do an E. Pakistan on the Indians, we should shoot the Mujahideen, accept the LOC as the permanent border, tell the Kashmiris to be loyal Indian citizens and get on with trying to rebuild Pakistan. This last would be a better excercise in futility than trying to liberate Kashmir.

PS # 68:

please read appeared on June 29, 2000

thnks

harimau

…you write…As to (#1)…..I have no wish to go through the hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors to prove that point.

…while answering #2 & #3…wonder why you skipped the first when that would have been the easiest to prove or disprove?…I know it is unfair for me to ask you to provide proof every time you say something…rather unfair…and my apologies in advance…

however, here is a helpful hint that will save you the trouble of going through hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors …her first article on chowk appeared on June 29, 2003.(hint begin with #2;))…and don’t overlook #92 or #149 while at it…and the best I save for the last:)...the total is 207 only on her first article!…

rgds,

t

yogiraj

...i have some difficulty in comprehending what you say...what is your question to me?...as for respecting women...if that is the question i respect them all...every religion and relationship...

#30 by temporal on October 13, 2003 1:09pm PT
harimau

T.

I ask you same question I asked another T12345.

Before the angle and GOD decided that Arabia as it is now ..... Your own Prophet actually used to be an employee of a woman.

I know.... I know... Urstruely will tell you it was a lie. Woman is a doormat. God came and told us that.... SET it straight....

So much insecurity?????

What is wrong with your religion. Afraid of your own mother??

I agree.. I agree... You love your mom and sis BUT Urs....Nasq.... will kill ya...

Only men are... GOD set it right.

Tough questions. No answers. Go and hate Harimau...Go and ask Gujrath. Go and ask for Kashmirr. Never ever think what I asked for. Nasq and Usr are there .... Lurking...Watching. They were always there...thousand and few hundred years ago

Yogiraj Patil

Daer Zarine, as long as you keep cursing them, you would continue to be acclaimed by the likes of UrsTruly, who would gladly offer you plenty of AK-47-s and kilos of RDX and perhaps some commando training in sabotage and assasination so that you can vent your grievances against the idea of being an Indian Muslim- an educated Indian Muslim because the likes of us are a slap on the face of these two-nation theorists.
These ribald Islamist are a slur in the name of humanity and enemies of Indian muslims because they are deeply jealous of the freedom of choice (with whatever limitations) that Indian State and constitution provides and they try to deny this fact because it refutes their two-nation thesis of muslims becoming slaves in a country where they would be in minority.
These theocrats only understand nation as a ``natural-given`` as defined in the books, and cannot even grasp the concept of solidarity amonst individuals in a modern democratic multi-ethnic, multi-religious democratic state.
We have to try and not let the likes of Urs truly gain any political space because they are capable of churning out jehadis out of illiterate masses rathar than grooming them up to make substantial contributions to their nation`s economy.The idea of democracy and secularism has enemies lurking in these guys who would love to see their clones in RSS gain importance, because only then they become important- to use the local adage ``Aag mein apni apni roti saikenge``.
The ``idea of strong India`` as a democracy with secular foundations would keep on haunting these Islamist in their dreams till their last day on the earth.Let us not fatten their egos by even listening to what RSS or UrsTuly has to say about other religions and communities.

Romair post 19 `` It is good to see Indians taking interest in Pakistan. ``

Why this hankering for the approval of Indians?
If they want to they will learn. Infact I would say they undestand Pakistan better than Pakistanis themselves do.

Also just by going to concerts of pakistani musicians doesnot enhance undestanding. Goebvles Romair, you need to hone your arguments and marshall facts in a better way. This is pathetic.



``I have always felt that I have to take the initiative in interacting with and socializing with Indians. They rarely take the initiative. Either they are too scared, or don`t know what to say, or don`t feel the need. The only thing they generally know about Pakistan is the Pakistan cricket team. ``

Indians are in onece bitten twice shy mode. The onus is on pakistanis to undestand the current indian stance. I doubt very much is pakistan and pakistanis udestand this. They are living in laa-laa land built round the myth of 1 pakistani is as good as 10 Indians!

``They may love Pakistan, but they are still genuinely convinced that Pakistan is the guilty party. ``

1965, Kargil, the jihaids pumpped into india etc come to mind Romair
Oh BTW you havenot answered my set of questions from a previous thread. I guess you are like the one legged soldier who can only go

left, left, left

Or

right, right right

and never march left, right, left! ;-)

One them and one theme only.

And you still go on begging - but then I guess moving from army to civilian life, and then to US and then afte 9/11 on to Canada - does this -

``I think if Indians do make an effort to learn about Pakistan, ``

See it is the pakistanis who have a problem. If only the education in pakistan was correct then the pakistanis would not be a bunch of deluded disillusioned people. It is pakistan which has to learn about India and bharata not the other way round. Ofcourse pakistan thinks it is the direct descendent of the loins of arabs - then surely Indians need to learn about this new thing.

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Ref nb #56

[harimau, I can think of lots of people who sound as if,forget about being laid,they haven`t set eyes on a woman ever since they were in college....no one seems unduly concerned about their sexual activity. Why all this interest people have(not you,I don`t remember you ever having said that) in whether Farzana gets laid or not, I don`t know.]

Your points are very valid. But what I find objectionable about Ali1`s statement -- not that I don`t have violent disagreements with Farzana Versey myself -- is the denigration of a woman for BEING a woman. Unless that mindset changes and we are able to treat women on a par with men, we should not consider ourselves `liberated`.

Ref veeresh #46

[Hi Zarine . . . thank you for another interesting article . . . just out of curiosity, were you ever, in the course of your travels especially up North, called a ``Madrasi`` as different from a ``Malloo``? And if so, did you take umbrage or did you leave it to the other person`s ignorance or did you try to correct the other person? Or any other reaction?]

Ref stuka #59

[There is no Kerala regiment BTW. Mallus who join infantry (which has community based regiments as opposed to Armor, Arty etc.) join the Madras regiment.]

Thank you for proving my point about Tamil Nadu being the hegemon of South India.

Ref Urstruly #57

[Isn`t it super? Farzana Versey is a fair game for any Indian just because one insensitive clod who happens to be a Pakistani, expressed his uncouth comments about her?]

Nope. Farzana is fair game for the comments she makes about India, Indians, etc. We don`t need people who constantly whine and whinge. For every rabblerouser like Farzana, there a hundred people who do constructive things for society, helping the downtrodden -- be they Hindu or Muslim.

[I don`t understand the connection.]

We don`t expect you to so it is okay.

[Instead, the abuse and the insults that are hurled towards Farzana everytime she writes on chowk, go way back before this individual opened his mouth.]

I don`t think she got much abuse for that recent write-up on the Pope. On the other hand, talking about a `true azadi` Kashmir makes Indians see red.

[No one needs a DSL connection to prove that.]

In your case, you don`t connect anything with anything else so a DSL connection, I agree, isn`t going to help.

#57 Urstruly

Buzz off, you shameless sectarian crocodile !! Your hate-filled rants are only too well known to us. For those who may have missed the depths of your recent depravity: this *person* (not sure if he deserves such a lofty description) recently suggested that murder of ahmedias in Pakistan is OK because they are after all apostates.

and now he has the cheek to join this conversation....

There is no Kerala regiment BTW. Mallus who join infantry (which has community based regiments as opposed to Armor, Arty etc.) join the Madras regiment.

Faruk:

``Most Muslims killed in Kargil were from JKLI which has a large number of Muslims.``

Hmm, actually, the most number of Muslims killed were from the Grenadiers which recruit in UP predominantly. The JKLI has a mix of Muslims, Dogras and some Ladakhis as well. The JKLI did take part in initial assaults bt the other regiments you mentioned actually had a bigger role.

I am sure most Indians are familiar with the most famous of Grenadiers: Havildar Major Abdul Hameed PVC Posthomous.

Isn`t it super? Farzana Versey is a fair game for any Indian just because one insensitive clod who happens to be a Pakistani, expressed his uncouth comments about her? I don`t understand the connection. Instead, the abuse and the insults that are hurled towards Farzana everytime she writes on chowk, go way back before this individual opened his mouth. No one needs a DSL connection to prove that.

...i am sick of hearing the whining about gujarat to describe the plight of all indian muslims....it is part of 2 or 3 horrible incidents involving a few hundred people in a country of a billion people over a time period of decades...give it a rest....it is like taking the LA riots as representative of all race relations in the US....

Zarine, I really like your last article. Good to hear from you again. I wish more articles here were like yours.
Soysauce,speak for yourself about being more interested in Pakistan than Nepal or Bangladesh....I know where I`d go if I could only go to one place...it wouldn`t be Pakistan,just because I`m more curious about Dhaka.

harimau, I can think of lots of people who sound as if,forget about being laid,they haven`t set eyes on a woman ever since they were in college....no one seems unduly concerned about their sexual activity. Why all this interest people have(not you,I don`t remember you ever having said that) in whether Farzana gets laid or not, I don`t know. How do they even know,unless they have a US spy satellite view aimed at her house,recording the activity there,I don`t know!!Farzana,make sure the baida walla is well dressed,you never know,do you?
Urstruly talking about a sick society is a joke. If we want to be really specific,any country where women cannot freely choose their partner,where women have to obey male rules has a sick society.That leaves out much of the world,including his beloved homeland.Talk about the pot calling the kettle black,and what does it achieve? I think people like Zarine make him very uncomfortable.Cheer up,there`s always Farzana on a bad day-sorry Farzana-you do probably do that to the likes of urstruly,though that`s not enough reason for you to stop writing what you do,as long as you feel that way.You`re much less of a victim than a lot of Hindus in India by virtue of social and economic privilege,but you don`t seem to see it that way.

Ms. Habeeb

My observation is quite the contrary though. I have noticed that as long as you keep on appeasing them they will keep on issuing you the certificates of citizenship and petriotism. I don`t have much problem with that either yet the problem that I have is that why only Muslims have to appease them; why Muslims have to appease them even when they themselves are the victims of routine genocide and ethnic cleansing. Shouldn`t those who commit the acts of crimes against humanity be stripped off their citizenships and their certificates of patriotism be torn apart? Instead I see that their co-religionists not only try to give them moral cover but also try to appease them too. These traits in a society makes a society a very very sick society I am afraid. This is an observation of an outsider.

What is more disturbing is that the moral and ethical values that I am talking about are not comparative. A typical defense in that kind of argument is - ``oh look German Nazis killed 6 million jews but we have only killed 80,000 Kashmiris; we have no comparison with Nazis; we are choir boys as compared to Nazis`` or it might go like this `` oh really, Pakistan army killed 30 million bengalis, but we only killed 2000 Gujrati Muslims.......we are not even as half as bad as Paksitanis``. I have heard this line of defense for the gizzillionth times. And it is the gazillionth time that I am trying to get my point across that sanctity of human life is not a hindu value, or Muslim value, or Nazi value, or Eskimo value......it is a human value. It is not comparative. Each must bear his own cross. And who is bearing the cross of murdered Muslims in India from occupied Kashmir to Gujrat to Mumbai? Who?

Re: Veeresh #46
The term “Madrasi” comes from the Madras residency in pre independence India. It was broken up into the four south Indian states now. A lot of South Indians moved to north India before Independence and were called “Madrasi’s” the name stuck after independence.

Regads,

Faruk

Many thanks for all your comments. A quick note to FOSA, the incident where the Pakistani woman asked me how I got a scholarship, happened in Oxford. If you read the last article, you will see that I did not mention the name of the University. FARZANA, such a pleasure to hear that you lived in Ernakulam and that too at Chittor Road. To be sure, communal prejudice of the kind in NOrth India is largely absent in Kerala. But things are not hunky dory. ON Jinnah> He was an astute politician, but I think that nothing broke Indian Islam (I mean Indian Islam to refer to socio-political aspects and not the piety of individual Muslims) like partition. I also think that states should not privilege one kind of identity, whether it be religious, ethnic or linguistic. Such states are bound to have serious difficulties. To URSTRULy, I am not a naive peacenik who wants to curry favour with the RSS. But, I believe that the blame game and playing the victim is not going to help. India has a strong civil society and inspite of a government which looked the other way when Muslims were massacred in Gujarat, several brave non-Muslims stood up for the rights of Muslims. Iqbal Ahmed, a Pakistani whom I deeply respect once said that the greatest achievement of India`s democracy is that its Muslims feel Indian. The massacre in Gujarat may prompt people to think differently, but I think we should not loose faith in the idea of India.

re: #45

...harimau 1, temporal 0...

Re : Article
Another nice article Zarine …..

“What I am seeking is something fundamentally different. To me, the objective of my curiosity is an enlightened understanding of Pakistan, an enlightened understanding that will help forge better relations between my country and Pakistan.”

I would be interested in your opinion of Pakistan and her people.


“Does patriotism have to be based on negative emotions like enmity? Yes, we have fought wars with Pakistan and several hundreds of our jawaans have lost their lives defending India and by extension the idea of a pluralistic, secular, democratic India. But, paying homage to their sacrifice does not mean that Indians be a hate-filled, revenge seeking people who want to destroy another country. Also, the commitment of Indian Muslims to India, should not be measured on the touchstone of their hate towards Pakistan.”

I don’t think its hatred to Pakistan the nation or her people its hatred for what Pakistan stands for or more correctly what we have convinced ourselves it stands for. It’s not a pluralistic, secular, democratic society and that is what most Indian dislike about Pakistan. I don’t think anyone’s hatred to another nation should be a measure of their patriotism, but commitment to the idea of a pluralistic, secular, democratic India is fair game.


Regards,



Faruk

Frankly, Indians do not consider any of the Pakistani Elites as worthy of emulation....for US Pakistan is just a bad theocratic experiment (a Kitch infact) and inconsequential to US for the reasons of trade or even culturally. It just happens that some of the near ones migrated to Pakistan and we maintained the filial ties because of the traditions.
Most of the Indians (especially those from the South) had forgotten Pakistani Army Elites (even as an enemy) until these Jokers started re-working at their surreptitious and ``khurafaat``schemings and tried to occupy Kargil.
WE were forced to pay attention to these guys in the same manner as America was forced to acknowledge the ``importance`` of Al-Qaeda after 9/11. This is a bad distraction for India in terms of its resources- and an even worse for Pakistan because, these Army Elites are going to take Pakistan down even faster than their Political Elites would have by diverting the funds either to the Armed forces or in their hare brained schemes with bombastic claims.

Re : ironman # 44

Most Muslims killed in Kargil were from JKLI which has a large number of Muslims. JKLI battalions were the first solders up the hills and took a lot of causalities. Gurkha Rifles, Ladakh Scouts, Naga Regiments, and Jammu and Kashmir Infantry were entrusted with operations in Kargil. They all have Muslim solders. I don’t know of any Kerela regiment involved in Kargil.

Regards,

Faruk

Hi Zarine . . . thank you for another interesting article . . . just out of curiosity, were you ever, in the course of your travels especially up North, called a ``Madrasi`` as different from a ``Malloo``? And if so, did you take umbrage or did you leave it to the other person`s ignorance or did you try to correct the other person? Or any other reaction?

Thank you/rgds/malik

Ref anurag #32

[Harimau #26 & #29,

HA HA HA.. quite funny.]

Thanks.

[It seems that you know a bit of C, C++ yourself.]

Enough to say that C and C++ are the grades they deserve as programming languages!

[A gult disguised as a sikh???]

Not at all. I am from the true hegemon of South India, Tamil Nadu!

Incidentally, sometime ago I was browsing thru the list of Indian
soldiers killed in kargil.

Quite a few muslim names were from kerala.

Ref temporal #30

[harimau

...in #27 you say ``...If I recall correctly, the first comment ...came from Ali1, a *Pakistani* AND a *Muslim* ....So much for abuse from Hindians.``

...i hope you are home based and have full access to the internet unlike the last time you made a statement and had to withdraw...

...where is the proof that:

1: Ali made the first comment?
2: That said person is a pakistani?
3: And the said person is a muslim?

...holding my breath...not!]

Despite having DSL access, it still took me more than 30 minutes to search through Ali1`s rantings and ravings on Chowk. Here is Ali1 in his own words:

[#561 Making Religion Sexy on January 28, 2001
bibi farzana,

Assalam-o-alaikum wa rehmat ullah he wa barakatuhu

This reminds me of another article of yours where you mixed food w/ sex (uppercrustindia.com?).

Wallahie, you really need to get laid.

Alternatively, you can recite ``Jal tu Jalal tu`` 70 times after each tahajudd prayers.

Wassalam]


[#773 Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War on August 27, 1999

bahmad, me and my family have never had the misfortune of living in India]

Thus, I have presented proof that Ali1 indeed said to Farzana Versey that she needs to get laid; that Ali1 is NOT an Indian and thus likely to be a Pakistani. His other ravings show his anti-Hindu rhetoric and he has called Patrick Massih something derogatory in Urdu which leads me to suspect that he is NOT a Christian. He has also made it clear that he is NOT a Qadiani. So one logically concludes that he is Muslim.

As to Ali1 being the FIRST person to have told Farzana Versey about his perception of her physical needs, I have no wish to go through the hundreds of thousands of interacts by thousands of interactors to prove that point. But it does raise an interesting point: do YOU wish to claim credit for being the originator of the said statement?

Kindest regards.

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Compliments on writing a very clear headed article on what it is like growing up muslim in India. I am sorry to hear that ugly ethnic comments have reached even the South; I had hoped that this disease was confined to North India.

Somehow, while I went to school and college with several muslim friends, I have not witnessed situations like these. But maybe it is just my age showing; there is no doubt that beginning in the 90`s we see more polarization and communal separation.

Welcome to Chowk (maybe this is your second article here?) !

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re: romair

{I think it would be healthy to see some opinions from India, completely blaming India for all the Indo-Pak problems, also. }

..weren`t you running around with a hard-on after arundhati roy did just that?...

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Harimau #26 & #29,

HA HA HA.. quite funny.

It seems that you know a bit of C, C++ yourself. A gult disguised as a sikh???

Why are you limiting your ``Raj karega khalsa`` dreams to Lahore? Aim for Washington, DC and Beijing also (the two powers that really matter today). I shall pray for you on my next trip to the gurudwara :)


Kaurasach #28

Out of curiosity, where did u study? and what is your sample set of the pakistanis who you knew? and no exceptions??