India and Pakistan: The Stark Reality
Godot October 14, 2003
#283 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 19, 2003 2:36:36 am
Re. my post 240: I have not expressed how Pakistanis feel...so whether they hate us/love us has little to do with what I said. And even less to let this fact allow us to condone the role of the Defence Ministry in the coffin scam. I DO represent an Indian point of view, and if someone else has a different one, it does not take away from my Indian-ness.
[``Indian Hindus are anti-Pakistan because of the history of Partition``
An opinion not borne out by facts. Partition happened a very long time ago. The anti-Pak feeling had not percolated down to animosity at the personal level like it has now. The Lahore Yatra was a political success domestically because of desire for normalcy and peace. Post Kargil, enthusiasm was muted during Agra.]
History does not just vanish. The Partition has had a deep impact and we have had to live with the fissures it created. Who said the enthusiasm during the Agra summit was muted? Except for political drivel (the famous Advani-Vajpayee coteries battling it out), it was seen as a major potential for peace.
[``the fear psychosis created by the West, ``
What fear psychosis of Pakistan has been generated by the west? When in doubt, blame America/ West??? The problem is between India and Pakistan, and the west has had no role in preventing a solution at all.]
Really? What about its `proxy war`, the old divide-and-fool tactics? Everythign that India and Pakistan do vis-a-vis each other is dictated by how the West will react/support the move.
[``the bluster of our own political parties to get electoral mileage out of this enmity. ``
It has contributed, not created the fear psychosis.]
It has created an additional fear psychosis, especially among the Muslims.
[``The common Indian does not care about Kargil ``
How do you define the ``common Indian``? The middle class certainly cared and does care. This statement shows that you are not really connected to the Indian mainstream. Without popular support, the Indian government of the time would not have been able to launch such a manpower intensive operation. Besides the lack of support of a military operation, be it in Kargil, Sicahen or Kashmir in general, can be measured by jingoistic versus peace constituency. The peace constituency in India vis a vis Kashmir/Siachen is non existent. There is a consensus in India that is rather remarkable considering the fact that we have been fighting a proxy war for 13 years. Yet, there is no demand at all from the peiople that we give away Kashmir.]
So you too join the bandwagon about how much do I know about the common Indian. I AM that Indian. Since I am a tax-paying citizen with no political, religious affiliations at the organisational level, have had a decent education in India that I try to use to some benefit, and I do not think going to the slums is a part of my tourist itinerary. right? Therefore, i do believe that the government did not ask me or my fellow citizens before any ``intensive operation`` in Kargil. No poll is conducted when we launch rockets and bombs. No one asks us what we want. As for the people not demanding that we give away Kashmir, I think is a part of a huff-puff patriotism, not genuine nationalistic pride. We will nto even agree to give up Dharavi, the largest slum in Asia...does that mean anything?
Dear Anil:
My post 239 was in response to the unnecessary sarcasm wrt my being in a position to help you. I too am chary about discussing many things on a public forum. The mail has been sent.
[``Indian Hindus are anti-Pakistan because of the history of Partition``
An opinion not borne out by facts. Partition happened a very long time ago. The anti-Pak feeling had not percolated down to animosity at the personal level like it has now. The Lahore Yatra was a political success domestically because of desire for normalcy and peace. Post Kargil, enthusiasm was muted during Agra.]
History does not just vanish. The Partition has had a deep impact and we have had to live with the fissures it created. Who said the enthusiasm during the Agra summit was muted? Except for political drivel (the famous Advani-Vajpayee coteries battling it out), it was seen as a major potential for peace.
[``the fear psychosis created by the West, ``
What fear psychosis of Pakistan has been generated by the west? When in doubt, blame America/ West??? The problem is between India and Pakistan, and the west has had no role in preventing a solution at all.]
Really? What about its `proxy war`, the old divide-and-fool tactics? Everythign that India and Pakistan do vis-a-vis each other is dictated by how the West will react/support the move.
[``the bluster of our own political parties to get electoral mileage out of this enmity. ``
It has contributed, not created the fear psychosis.]
It has created an additional fear psychosis, especially among the Muslims.
[``The common Indian does not care about Kargil ``
How do you define the ``common Indian``? The middle class certainly cared and does care. This statement shows that you are not really connected to the Indian mainstream. Without popular support, the Indian government of the time would not have been able to launch such a manpower intensive operation. Besides the lack of support of a military operation, be it in Kargil, Sicahen or Kashmir in general, can be measured by jingoistic versus peace constituency. The peace constituency in India vis a vis Kashmir/Siachen is non existent. There is a consensus in India that is rather remarkable considering the fact that we have been fighting a proxy war for 13 years. Yet, there is no demand at all from the peiople that we give away Kashmir.]
So you too join the bandwagon about how much do I know about the common Indian. I AM that Indian. Since I am a tax-paying citizen with no political, religious affiliations at the organisational level, have had a decent education in India that I try to use to some benefit, and I do not think going to the slums is a part of my tourist itinerary. right? Therefore, i do believe that the government did not ask me or my fellow citizens before any ``intensive operation`` in Kargil. No poll is conducted when we launch rockets and bombs. No one asks us what we want. As for the people not demanding that we give away Kashmir, I think is a part of a huff-puff patriotism, not genuine nationalistic pride. We will nto even agree to give up Dharavi, the largest slum in Asia...does that mean anything?
Dear Anil:
My post 239 was in response to the unnecessary sarcasm wrt my being in a position to help you. I too am chary about discussing many things on a public forum. The mail has been sent.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#282 Posted by Romair on October 19, 2003 1:43:52 am
Interesting news:
``Mr Safi Qureshey, Co-founder and former CEO of AST Research, who also serves as Pakistan’s Honorary Investment Counselor in Los Angeles, is on Governor-elect Schwarzenegger’s transition team.
Mr. Qureshey is Regent’s professor at UCI’s Graduate School of Management and a former member of President Clinton’s Export Council.
He has made a name in the IT field: AST became a Fortune 500 company with operations in more than 100 countries and more than $2.5 billion in annual revenue.
He is also actively associated with developmental efforts in Pakistan in various fields, including education``
``Mr Safi Qureshey, Co-founder and former CEO of AST Research, who also serves as Pakistan’s Honorary Investment Counselor in Los Angeles, is on Governor-elect Schwarzenegger’s transition team.
Mr. Qureshey is Regent’s professor at UCI’s Graduate School of Management and a former member of President Clinton’s Export Council.
He has made a name in the IT field: AST became a Fortune 500 company with operations in more than 100 countries and more than $2.5 billion in annual revenue.
He is also actively associated with developmental efforts in Pakistan in various fields, including education``
#281 Posted by HisExcellency on October 19, 2003 12:01:31 am
#248 by arjun_m
++
You must be new to the internet...you probably think you can get away with posting BS like Pakistan exports 400 million$ of IT etc etc..
++
I don`t blame you for being cynical. You are using internet research with the underlying assumption that internet contains enough information on Pakistani IT industry. Unfortunately, this is not true. The $60m figure estimated by PSEB is based on the responses of those 270 odd companies who participated in PSEB`s survey.
There are many others that didn`t. One of them belongs to a family friend who unfortunately also got involved in an insider-trading in California 3 years back. His name is Aitzaz (I will not give his last name). His former company was raking in $700m a year through its offices in LA and outsourcing facility in Islamabad. He didn`t respond to the PSEB survey for political reasons since some of the investors in his company were being investigated for corruption/money laundering and kick backs in Pakistan. You may be surprised how many such entrepreneurs are operating under the PSEB`s radar for fear of accountability. Beware that in Pakistan, the venture capitalists and angel investors are usually corrupt bureaucrats, politicians and generals. In Aitzaz`s case, a former Commerce Minister (Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar) was allegedly involved.
When I said $400m, I was actually being modest. The actual amount of export market is higher. I know some of these investors personally. And I can assure.. they simply cannot register themselves with PSEB.
++
You must be new to the internet...you probably think you can get away with posting BS like Pakistan exports 400 million$ of IT etc etc..
++
I don`t blame you for being cynical. You are using internet research with the underlying assumption that internet contains enough information on Pakistani IT industry. Unfortunately, this is not true. The $60m figure estimated by PSEB is based on the responses of those 270 odd companies who participated in PSEB`s survey.
There are many others that didn`t. One of them belongs to a family friend who unfortunately also got involved in an insider-trading in California 3 years back. His name is Aitzaz (I will not give his last name). His former company was raking in $700m a year through its offices in LA and outsourcing facility in Islamabad. He didn`t respond to the PSEB survey for political reasons since some of the investors in his company were being investigated for corruption/money laundering and kick backs in Pakistan. You may be surprised how many such entrepreneurs are operating under the PSEB`s radar for fear of accountability. Beware that in Pakistan, the venture capitalists and angel investors are usually corrupt bureaucrats, politicians and generals. In Aitzaz`s case, a former Commerce Minister (Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar) was allegedly involved.
When I said $400m, I was actually being modest. The actual amount of export market is higher. I know some of these investors personally. And I can assure.. they simply cannot register themselves with PSEB.
#280 Posted by sadna on October 19, 2003 12:01:31 am
nazarhayatkhan #276
``If the Govt is failing to do some thing about education through its own institutions, it is duty of we ordinary citizens to pick up the gaunlet. ``
True. But its a question of gross disproportion between money spent by government on a ex-military trusts school given the number of students affected vs total government budget available for education development. One is at a loss to understand the government`s openhandedness in light of the numbers.
(14 January 2003)
http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/14/local6.htm
``out of total allocation of Rs19,313 million for the education sector, Rs16,085 million are spent on salaries, Rs1,628 million on non-salary account and only Rs1,600 million on development side.``
...
``Sindh has 38,885 primary schools in the public sector, of which 13,537 are without buildings, 5,901 schools have one room only, 12,791 are with two rooms , 1,131 with three rooms, 1,173 with four rooms, and 1,197 have five rooms.``
....
``The figures show that the participation of school-age children is hardly 45.9 per cent, as 2,626,433 children, including 1,120,372 male and 1,506,061 female students, are still out of schools.``
....
(4th May 2003)
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/04/local20.htm
``..Emphasizing the need for setting up more schools in private sector, the chief minister gave an assurance that the Government of Sindh would extend its full support and cooperation in furtherance of this objective.
He also announced a grant of Rs. 50 million for the SST Public school...``
``..Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Farooq Feroze briefed the chief minister about the school project. He said the project would be completed Inshallah by 2004 at a cost of Rs. 200 million. The strength of the school would be about 400 and students hailing from this area would be imparted quality education...``
In other words, apparently Musharraf and the Sindh government are willing to spend Rs 130 million of government funds for the education of 400 children - while 4.8 million Sindh children between 5-9(2.6 million of whom have never been to school), have to make do with a budget of 1660 million for improvement of all other schools, building new ones and unsuccessfully preventing those 3500 schools from shutting down.
ie, 12000 times the number of children have to make do with only 12 times the govt. funds granted by Musharraf and Sindh government to the Sargodhian trust for 400 children.
I personally feel scared out of my wits thinking of the long term consequences of such decisionmaking.
If there is a problem with these numbers feel free to point it out. On the face of it, this is yet another obscenely disproportionate and ill-affordable subsidy given by the long suffering Pakistani people to their military/ex-military class.
``If the Govt is failing to do some thing about education through its own institutions, it is duty of we ordinary citizens to pick up the gaunlet. ``
True. But its a question of gross disproportion between money spent by government on a ex-military trusts school given the number of students affected vs total government budget available for education development. One is at a loss to understand the government`s openhandedness in light of the numbers.
(14 January 2003)
http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/14/local6.htm
``out of total allocation of Rs19,313 million for the education sector, Rs16,085 million are spent on salaries, Rs1,628 million on non-salary account and only Rs1,600 million on development side.``
...
``Sindh has 38,885 primary schools in the public sector, of which 13,537 are without buildings, 5,901 schools have one room only, 12,791 are with two rooms , 1,131 with three rooms, 1,173 with four rooms, and 1,197 have five rooms.``
....
``The figures show that the participation of school-age children is hardly 45.9 per cent, as 2,626,433 children, including 1,120,372 male and 1,506,061 female students, are still out of schools.``
....
(4th May 2003)
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/04/local20.htm
``..Emphasizing the need for setting up more schools in private sector, the chief minister gave an assurance that the Government of Sindh would extend its full support and cooperation in furtherance of this objective.
He also announced a grant of Rs. 50 million for the SST Public school...``
``..Air Chief Marshal (Retd) Farooq Feroze briefed the chief minister about the school project. He said the project would be completed Inshallah by 2004 at a cost of Rs. 200 million. The strength of the school would be about 400 and students hailing from this area would be imparted quality education...``
In other words, apparently Musharraf and the Sindh government are willing to spend Rs 130 million of government funds for the education of 400 children - while 4.8 million Sindh children between 5-9(2.6 million of whom have never been to school), have to make do with a budget of 1660 million for improvement of all other schools, building new ones and unsuccessfully preventing those 3500 schools from shutting down.
ie, 12000 times the number of children have to make do with only 12 times the govt. funds granted by Musharraf and Sindh government to the Sargodhian trust for 400 children.
I personally feel scared out of my wits thinking of the long term consequences of such decisionmaking.
If there is a problem with these numbers feel free to point it out. On the face of it, this is yet another obscenely disproportionate and ill-affordable subsidy given by the long suffering Pakistani people to their military/ex-military class.
#279 Posted by MantoLives on October 18, 2003 11:45:02 pm
Error in the last post:
`Has denigration of Pakistan AS a mission in her life`
HE #277
Think before you write... by telling these charities to be smart and not getting caught you are condoning terrorism.. I am surprised because you often claimed on this website to be a Moderate Muslim opposed to Mullahs.
-YLH
`Has denigration of Pakistan AS a mission in her life`
HE #277
Think before you write... by telling these charities to be smart and not getting caught you are condoning terrorism.. I am surprised because you often claimed on this website to be a Moderate Muslim opposed to Mullahs.
-YLH
#278 Posted by MantoLives on October 18, 2003 11:38:15 pm
I believe the return of Sadna to chowk means... more of the same old hate mongering and India Pakistan matches... the civility that we have created is now going to be lost once again.
She is the kind of offensive fanatic who
1) is obsessed with Pakistan (her post #258 is an ample example)
2) has `denigration` of Pakistan has a mission of her life.
When she gets called out for her bigotry... she hides behind the fact that she is a woman.
It is a disturbing idea that she has returned... and will definitely not be a pleasant thought for those reasonable Pakistanis and Indians who want dialogue.
-YLH
#277 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on October 18, 2003 10:53:18 pm
Sadna # 258
There is generally no shortage of money even from the International bodies for education. But they want to be sure that it is well spent and not eaten up by corruption.
Sargodhians Spirit Trust, subsidiary of Sargodha Old Boys Association, is an International Organization - all voluntary - with members spread all over the Globe. The administrative expenditure on this project is less than 1%. Air Cdre. Shabbir (Rtd) is the purchasing officer. His nickname is ``angel``. He has been busy in charitable work for last over 30 years.
Architect, an old Sargodhian, is charging peanuts for the work. So there is zero leakage of money.
Needless to say that Old Sargodians are always well represented, be it a civil or a milirary Govt., and can cut throught the red tape. In the previous Civil Governments, we invariably had a minister from school.
If the Govt is failing to do some thing about education through its own institutions, it is duty of we ordinary citizens to pick up the gaunlet.
#276 Posted by HisExcellency on October 18, 2003 10:53:18 pm
#247 by arjun_m
++
What do you make of the paki charity being listed as a terrorist group?
++
The charity should have been smarter in its operations especially after having seen the fate of the two Arab charities that were busted last year. I hope the other guys don`t make the same mistake of getting caught.
++
What do you make of the paki charity being listed as a terrorist group?
++
The charity should have been smarter in its operations especially after having seen the fate of the two Arab charities that were busted last year. I hope the other guys don`t make the same mistake of getting caught.
#275 Posted by anil on October 18, 2003 9:41:55 pm
Dear Stuka and Yasser (#266 & 274):
Yasser, you are right, the hero dies in the no man`s land. I have almost entire collection of Sadat Hassan Manto`s writings that have been translated in English. I have read everything that I could lay my hands on his writings. It is sad how he himself died. Stuka, a lack of my knowledge of India - Pakistan border just shows. Several years ago, when I had travelled to Jammu with my family, and was most surprised to find out from the driver that Sialkot was just on the other side of the river.
My father`s generation who saw the partition has either died or dying down. Such an event should be recorded and preserved as a reminder for the future South Asians. Many will be furious but will have sobering effect when they will be over anger, denial and move to acceptance. In Berlin, there is a bombed out church, completely preserved as a reminder of the evil.
ANIL
Yasser, you are right, the hero dies in the no man`s land. I have almost entire collection of Sadat Hassan Manto`s writings that have been translated in English. I have read everything that I could lay my hands on his writings. It is sad how he himself died. Stuka, a lack of my knowledge of India - Pakistan border just shows. Several years ago, when I had travelled to Jammu with my family, and was most surprised to find out from the driver that Sialkot was just on the other side of the river.
My father`s generation who saw the partition has either died or dying down. Such an event should be recorded and preserved as a reminder for the future South Asians. Many will be furious but will have sobering effect when they will be over anger, denial and move to acceptance. In Berlin, there is a bombed out church, completely preserved as a reminder of the evil.
ANIL
#274 Posted by MantoLives on October 18, 2003 8:16:27 pm
Anil...
If you read the story `toba tek singh`... the hero dies in the no man`s land between Pakistan and India.... not Toba Tek Singh... So I don`t know if you want to build a musuem about partition at Toba Tek Singh the city or the no man`s land between Pakistan and India... My mother served the Government of Punjab as the district health officer in Toba Tek Singh a few years ago... and the environment of Toba Tek Singh is hardly conducive for this sorta thing...
Though not entirely sure about Social benefit of this project, I suppose such a project would be fascinating from a historical point of view.
-YLH
If you read the story `toba tek singh`... the hero dies in the no man`s land between Pakistan and India.... not Toba Tek Singh... So I don`t know if you want to build a musuem about partition at Toba Tek Singh the city or the no man`s land between Pakistan and India... My mother served the Government of Punjab as the district health officer in Toba Tek Singh a few years ago... and the environment of Toba Tek Singh is hardly conducive for this sorta thing...
Though not entirely sure about Social benefit of this project, I suppose such a project would be fascinating from a historical point of view.
-YLH
#273 Posted by MantoLives on October 18, 2003 8:14:48 pm
Anil...
If you read the story `toba tek singh`... the hero dies in the no man`s land between Pakistan and India.... not Toba Tek Singh... So I don`t know if you want to build a musuem about partition at Toba Tek Singh the city or the no man`s land between Pakistan and India... My mother served the Government of Punjab as the district health officer in Toba Tek Singh a few years ago... and the environment of Toba Tek Singh is hardly conducive for this sorta thing...
Though not entirely sure about Social benefit of this project, I suppose such a project would be fascinating from a historical point of view.
-YLH
If you read the story `toba tek singh`... the hero dies in the no man`s land between Pakistan and India.... not Toba Tek Singh... So I don`t know if you want to build a musuem about partition at Toba Tek Singh the city or the no man`s land between Pakistan and India... My mother served the Government of Punjab as the district health officer in Toba Tek Singh a few years ago... and the environment of Toba Tek Singh is hardly conducive for this sorta thing...
Though not entirely sure about Social benefit of this project, I suppose such a project would be fascinating from a historical point of view.
-YLH
#272 Posted by gujjubania on October 18, 2003 7:55:06 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#271 Posted by gujjubania on October 18, 2003 7:55:06 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#270 Posted by ballukhan on October 18, 2003 7:09:12 pm
I would like to know about the small arms and ammunition markets in Pakistan? I have always believed that the proliferation of the small arms has been one of the factors which has contributed to the rise in Jehadi Islamists.
Arms have always been the pride of the mafiasos and the militant tribes- dis-arm them and then they would be forced to come to the courts for resolution of the disputes.
Arms have always been the pride of the mafiasos and the militant tribes- dis-arm them and then they would be forced to come to the courts for resolution of the disputes.
#269 Posted by ballukhan on October 18, 2003 7:09:12 pm
Indians do not care about Pakistan at all.
Infact a lot of guys in the young generation hardly knew about Kashmir problem until Kargil. Kargil had shaken Indians just as 9/11 did- the same questions were raised- ``why Us? What did we do to them?``
But now the evil in the guise of Pakistani Army is evident to all the Indians.
Infact a lot of guys in the young generation hardly knew about Kashmir problem until Kargil. Kargil had shaken Indians just as 9/11 did- the same questions were raised- ``why Us? What did we do to them?``
But now the evil in the guise of Pakistani Army is evident to all the Indians.
#268 Posted by stuka on October 18, 2003 6:14:41 pm
Rational Faith:
What are you talking about? When did I abuse Manto? I hold him in very high regard.
What are you talking about? When did I abuse Manto? I hold him in very high regard.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- ahmedmadani: Re: # 120 Arjun's... The Correct Turn
- nb: Tahmed, I'm surprised you... The Correct Turn
- BJ2: Kulharee, good points! The... Hop Aboard the Interfaith
- ahmedmadani: Re: # 120 I... The Correct Turn
- tahmed32: #119 excellent post, madani... The Correct Turn
- ahmedmadani: Re: # 115 Arjun why... The Correct Turn
- drlokraj: he can surely bowl... Cricket: Afridi is Our
- dost_mittar: akcheema: Dasa is like a... The Correct Turn
