Who is Afraid of Al Qaeda?

ahmedzai: on the second point i raised: why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people``

you write : ``...Since people are anchored on wrong ways of doing things, you need to `unfreeze` them of that by obtaining a total buy-in of the Right Way of doing things...President Musharraf has opted for the 2nd route. ...Also, there are thousands of Mullas in cities, towns and villages, who preach extremism. He has already asked the people to point out those and boycott them. According to new rules, these Mullas can be arrested if surmoning against the spirit of Islam that you described.``

The second route would certainly be the correct one. However, to follow it would mean taking specific steps. Key steps would include (a) an education program for mullahs to teach them the message of the Quran (as opposed to merely reciting the words) with particular focus on the basic message of peace. (b) The syllabus in madrassahs would need to be updated (along similar lines, and as I mentioned earlier) so they no longer mislead boys of poor families into violence. (c) the Hadood Ordinance and the Blasphemy Laws which have no basis on the Quran would need to be abolished. These are all steps where Musharaff ALREADY took half steps towards, and then backed off when faced with opposition from the mullahs. So, while the intent may be there, let us hope he is able to do in future what he has so far not been able to do. Otherwise, this second path will remain a nonstarter...

ahmedzai #40 I shall respond to the first item now, and come back to the rest in a subsequent post.

On why dawood is not being extradited (and assuming as you say that the Foreign Office claim that he is not in Pakistan is not correct):

``One, there is no agreement of extradition between the two countries.``

We should then have an extradition treaty I think. And in any case where there is a political will, there is a legal way for countries. But an extradition treaty would be the proper first step, since that would include a judicial process to ensure that there is a strong criminal case against the individual in India.

``Two, these people have perhaps sought refuge in Pakistan. Why should we hand them over to India when we know very well that India will capitalize on this telling everybody, `look we told you that Pakistan is an epicenter of terrorism``.

Because doing the right thing is more important (and ultimately more fruitful) than winning brownie points.
And in any case, Pakistan`s actions would speak louder than India`s words (assuming the Indian government chose to take this course of action). Throughout much of the 1990`s, the Indian government tried its best to have the US label Pakistan a rogue state - didnt happen. And after 9/11 (much to BJP`s chagrin) the US was pals with Pakistan again.

``Three, even if Pakistan hands them over, India will claim what is in vogue these days ``its not enough, Pakistan needs to do more``.

Same response as before: it is more important to do the right thing then to worry about one`s image. The image, for whatever it is worth, ultimately catches up anyway.

``Four, Pakistan can very easily come up with a list of its own.``

Who? If there was such a list, no doubt the Pakistan government would have already whipped it out in response to India`s demands. In any case, this would be all the more reason to have that extradition treaty, in fact.

Tauheed at # 38:

Thanks.

I would like to respond to your points that can be debated one by one:

1. ``Thus, I dont understand why he doesnt take known lawbreakers from India and hand them back (these include this fellow dawood who i understand is wanted in india for planting bombs in bombay);``

My response: Although I would like to agree with our Foreign Office statements from time to time that Dawood is not in Pakistan, let us for argument sake accept that he is in Pakistan. One, there is no agreement of extradition between the two countries. Two, these people have perhaps sought refuge in Pakistan. Why should we hand them over to India when we know very well that India will capitalize on this telling everybody, `look we told you that Pakistan is an epicenter of terrorism``. Three, even if Pakistan hands them over, India will claim what is in vogue these days ``its not enough, Pakistan needs to do more``. Four, Pakistan can very easily come up with a list of its own. All we need to do is to blame some of our people living in exile in India, indict them and ask for extradition. Top on this list, would be Advani. Would India agree to a situation like that?

2. ``why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people;``

My response: See when you are trying to go for Business Process Reegineering or Change, then you have two methodologies available to you. (1) Follow the traditional route advocated by Hammer and Champy: Go for the kill, wipe out all the resistance and enforce the change (2) Since people are anchored on wrong ways of doing things, you need to `unfreeze` them of that by obtaining a total buy-in of the Right Way of doing things, `imbibe` them with the Right Way and `refreeze` them of the Right Way so that they continue doing the right things. President Musharraf has opted for the 2nd route. He is trying to educate Pakistanis on the evils of the past way of doing things. Thus, you hear him saying things like, ``The threat to Pakistan is internally from extremism``, `` we need to be an example of moderate and progressive Islam``, ``terrorists hiding in caves cannot be our leaders``, etc. Also, there are thousands of Mullas in cities, towns and villages, who preach extremism. He has already asked the people to point out those and boycott them. According to new rules, these Mullas can be arrested if surmoning against the spirit of Islam that you described.

3. ``why he allows madrassahs to flourish and preach the mullah version of islam (by all means teach islam, but teach them the peaceful message of the Quran, not the hate-filled message of the ignorant mullah, and also teach them skills they can earn an honest living with rather than skills that only thugs and goondas can use);``

My response: The new laws on Madressas have already been implemented. There would be new curriculum for the Madressas. Information Technology e.g. would be mandatory under this new curriculum. If he takes on Madressas the way you want, there would be total anarchy in Pakistan. The Madressas are very well organized and cannot be taken head on forcefully. We have to obtain a complete buy-in to bring change. His policy of Enlightened Moderation is both for Pakistanis and for Muslims.

4.`` why he fiddled with the elections to make the mullahs come to power in NWFP and also gain more seats than they ever received in previous elections in the center.``

My response: He did not fiddle in the elections. I have always said that the support for Mullas in Pakistan is real as an aftermath of US`s Afghanistan invasion. But hearing all those arguments, some times people jokingly say that perhaps he should have fiddled and kept the Mullas away by poll rigging. He was intelligent that he did not. I tell you honestly if he had done that, there would have been rebellion against military in the Pakhtoon belt. We needed to vent out our anger against Pakistan`s u-turn on Talibani policy. Elections win allowed us to do that. Why we wanted to have Mullas? You bet it was emotionalism. People tend to make unintelligent decisions under emotionalism. President Musharraf knew that. Now he gave Pakhtoons what we wanted to have, he is trying to keep MMA under check by a stick and carrot approach, knowing fully well that too much of stick will lead to civil unrest and too much of carrot to MMA means making a u-turn on a u-turn.

veeresh #39 your false modesty is most becoming.

tahmed32, #38 . . . please, sirji . . . with utmost humility and respect . . . there is nothing more we in India want than to see Pakistan grow the way you have pointed out . . . but then you for some reason add our internal issues which (including Thakeray and Kashmir and a few others) let us solve or stew in?

As for nuke being dumped on heads, please be aware that as ahmedmadani ji has pointed out in the past even if 15 million people die in Pakistan & India combined then be assured that we can crank that many fresh ones out in another nine months.

Best you can do is for all Pakistanis to start looking inwards and fixing your own lamp-posts and streets and education and . . . define Muslim.

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ahmedzai #34 Great post.

On India: I agree that India does not pose any immediate danger to Pakistan. The prospect of having a nuke dumped on their heads has served to cool the burning need of the Thakeray crowd in India to humiliate Pakistan. BUT, this is no long term solution. The long term solution is to reduce the Thakerays of India to their proper place - namely that of the lunatic fringe - and to encourage the voices of sanity in India. And there is no shortage of the latter in India, and indeed they constitute the ``silent majority`` of India. Attitudes towards Pakistan will take several years to change in India, but it can be done, and the time to start working at it for the Pakistan government is now. In the meantime, the best we can do as Pakistanis is to promote friendship at the nongovernment level.

On ben laden: Agreed that he and his followers represent the biggest threat to Pakistan. I am not fully in agreement on Musharaff. I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong. Thus, I dont understand why he doesnt take known lawbreakers from India and hand them back (these include this fellow dawood who i understand is wanted in india for planting bombs in bombay); why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people; why he allows madrassahs to flourish and preach the mullah version of islam (by all means teach islam, but teach them the peaceful message of the Quran, not the hate-filled message of the ignorant mullah, and also teach them skills they can earn an honest living with rather than skills that only thugs and goondas can use); why he fiddled with the elections to make the mullahs come to power in NWFP and also gain more seats than they ever received in previous elections in the center. Perhaps Musharaff has to face realities that you and I as ordinary citizens do not. Nevertheless, regardless of intentions, I think you will agree that Pakistan can and should recognize the real danger to Pakistan - which as you correctly point out is ben laden and his followers.

wajahat #35 I couldnt have put it better. Let these ba!stards stew in their own hatred of Pakistan. We need to focus on what is good for the average Pakistani, and that is all that really matters, and this means not losing our focus on the fact that the rabid pakistan haters of the kind we have on chowk do not represent the average indian. (I would not write this if i had not known enough decent indians in real life, and we have a number of them on chowk as well).

Tahmed

In complete agreement with you that the a minority of the Indian Interactors can only talk whilst bashing Paki, Jihadis, Ahabs, Japs or any other racist terminology employed by these to prove the authenticity of their argument.

veeresh #32 in fact immigrants of all nationalities worked for Henry Ford. At a village there, I saw a sign providing instructions to workers on the factory floor of a Model T plant which was in 8 different languages and employed three or four different scripts - english, cyrillic, arabic - which (contrary to what you write) is clear evidence that workers of all nationalities worked there.

Also, the wage rate of the factory worker at model t was well above the going rate for farm hands etc. and thus highly valued. (I think it was $5 a day back then).

As for the arab identity, the commonalities of culture between arabs - language, customs, traditional dresses, and so on - are far greater than their differences.

Tauheed at # 21:

I agree with your suggestion whole-heartedly.

However, honestly speaking, I am not concerned with Pakistan`s relations with India. I am concerned with Osama, Al Qaeda and Talibani influences. I believe that people of Pakistani origin, as indeed all other Muslims should get united in denouncing Osama and Al Qaeda in the strongest of terms (my apprehensions stem from the fact that if Osama is a creation of the West to fool Muslims into getting into a forced conflict with them, then we have to beat the trap).

At this time, we have to accept the fact that its leaders like President Musharraf, who are offering resistance to Osama`s mesmerizing messages. In this regard, the joint speech of Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and President Musharraf against Osama and terrorism are timely.

I know that many people feel that President Musharraf`s opposition to Osama and Al Qaeda is not genuine. But these are accusations at best. All Muslim leaders have welcomed President Musharraf`s stance and his suggestions for opposition to terrorism have been implemented at OIC. This proves that at international level, there is an agreement that President is not in league with Osama.

It is the extremist Indians who are doing all the propaganda against him, because they have their axes to grind. Unfortunately, I see PPP (and Nawaz) supporters falling in the same trap, because they too resent Musharraf. But just because I am against Benazir should not mean that when she comes in power, I start criticizing Pakistan and herself in the same tone as extremist Indians are doing.

I mean come on. If you read some posts and articles from supposedly Pakistani posters, you cannot differentiate between them and Indians.

We have to accept the ground realities. President Musharraf had the support of majority of Pakistanis and may still have it. But if all the anti-Mulla/Talibani/OBL Pakistanis start fighting amongst ourselves, then surely he will lose support. BB and Nawaz are out. Perhaps they may come back in 10 years, but for now even their presence will not make any difference. The fact is that if BB and Nawaz are allowed to come back and participate in elections, Mullas will bag more seats since the anti-Mulla votes will get further split. Support for Mullas in Pakistan is genuine and staunch. This may be under emotionalism, but if it is so, we have to find unemotional ways to lead them out of this path of religious extremism that leads to destruction. And we have to do it very intelligently so as not to make them look abandoned and dumped for they are Pakistanis too and are better than the province based nationalists at least.

tahmed 32 and Arabs in Dearborn . . . such pride in trying to project the joys of being Muslims there . . . but a few simple truths/facts he forgot:-

a) The Arabs came in to work for the engineering/automobile industries because the whites wouldnt/couldnt and African Americans were not hired by that Great Equal Opportunity employer, Henry Ford. So equal, that details of his offering equal employment in nazi Germany bear out truths.

b) The Arab-American identity, mainly Lebanese till WW-2, is still more Christian & Jewish than Muslim. (Now we can go into the definition of Muslim again, and include instead of excluding?)

c) The recent Iraqi entries are viewed as totally different.

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On Zafar`s article, here in India, which I still maintain is the best place for all kinds of Muslims (including women Muslims, non-Wahhabi Muslims, thinking Muslims, etcetc), Al Qaeda is considered to be a strange name for wrong guys. These wrong/bad guys have always existed, at this time in history they happen to be one type of Muslims. Question of being scared does not arise, it is like saying, are you scared of moving out of your house because there are road rollers around, and buses?

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dost-mittar,

``How many hindus have heard of Kalki``

You`re right, most hindus have never heard of kalki. Most hindus have never heard a lot of supposed hindu things.


``How many of those who have heard about him believe in a kalki?``

Again you`re right. Most hindus don`t believe a lot of their inherited religion anyway.
(And thanks be to that. Our religion rests very lightly on our minds!)


``How many of them know he will reestablish the purity of the caste system?``

None I guess. I`m trying to recall where I read that(Puranas, mahabharata??). No luck yet. Will let you know when the ol` bulb flickers again!

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RationalFaith,

At the risk of boring you...

Hindu culture has these immense books (size-wise) and extremely intricate stories/myths intervoven with the science/math/astronomy of those days...all of which goes to disprove the theory that the brahmans just sat on their behinds doing nothing all day, while others toiled.

Time was divided into cycles. The bigger cycle containing several smaller cycles...while itself being contained in a still bigger cycle, and so on. And Man`s life on earth was tied inextricably to those cycles.

The fundamental time cycle was the mahayuga...itself composed of 4 minor yugas: krita, treta, dva, kali.

Have you seen an indian dice? Its a brass rod of rectangular cross-section with dots inscribed on each face for 1,2,3 and 4 (no 5 or 6). If you throw a 4, you win.

A `4` means Krita (which means victory).

There`s this concept of the `cow of virtue`. In the krita yuga, the cow of virtue stands on all 4 legs (i.e. 100% virtue). All people are brahmans. Man lives for 400 years.

In the treta yuga, the cow loses one leg (only 75% virtue). Most people are brahmans, but some are not. Man lives 300 years.

In the dva, the cow loses yet another leg (50% virtue). Brahmans and others are about half-and-half. Man lives 200 years.

In the kali (meaning one), the cow is down to one sinle leg (virtue is down to 25%). Brahmans are few. Most people are non-brhamans. Man lives only 100 years. There is intense caste-mixing and caste-confusion. Brahmans become deceitful, start doing non-brahman type work while the non-brahman does brahman type work. IOW, the world is one big mess.

Needless to say, we are in kali at the moment! ... which has 432,000 years...of which 5000 are past.

At the end of kali...(things are really really bad now) ...comes 10th avatar Mr. Kalki (born to a brahman, of course!). He basically slaughters everyone not a brahman (leaving a few perhaps, for menial chores, etc), and magnanimously hands over the earth back to the brahmans...and so a krita begins anew...

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Yes, I remember reading some web site about Mohammed being kalki. But he`s a mite early!

In south india especially, there appear nuts on a regular basis claimimg to be kalki. The last one I remember about 10 years ago. He came public briefly before disappearing. On being asked why he disppeared, his chela said ``At this time if kalki showed himself, the earth couldn`t possibly bear it``!!!

Brat #26 Thank you. I am glad we have people like you around on chowk to demonstrate that all Indians are not a bunch of nuts like Jay and Arjun.

hamidm2 #27 perhaps you should make a video of urstruly (wearing a false beard) reading out his posts with an arab accent. You could sell it to Saturday Night Live.

PS: Dont give up hope. I spent the weekend near the home of the Arab-Americans - Dearborn, Michigan - and indeed the place is full of Arabs. They are in fact perfectly normal people. None of this ``world-wide anti-muslim conspiracy`` theories or anything. They serve great healthy mediterrnean food, have a great sense of humor, and dress and talk like normal people. Even Henry Ford - the quintessential american - had arab blood from his mother`s side, and in fact it is due to him that michigan is the arab capital of the US.