Who is Afraid of Al Qaeda?

WASHINGTON (AP) - Members of both parties are accusing the White House of stonewalling the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks by blocking its demands for documents despite threats of a subpoena.


This is a Major story.....and some day the truth will prevail......and the world will know the horrible truth that it was Mr Bush or Rather America itself with attacked America...

The topic was Al-Qaeda and USA........

but the posters seems to take a diagonal turn.......and its now....Pakistan...and its involvement in hiding terrorist.....!!! epecially in referecne to INDIA...

Funny isn`t it.

Veeresh #72

I doubt it. These must be poor khalistani sikhs, whom Pakistan will be happy will sell down the river as soon as their price rose above two annas.

Hmmmmm . . . interesting inputs being rcvd . . . some of the most-wanted men from India being given refuge in Pakistan till a few days ago have been quietly handed over for safe-keeping . . . now if only they had stayed on in India, they would have been free to use/misuse the legal and democratic systems in India . . . but alas!!

Ahmadzai - can you try to specify who are the Pakistani elements given safe haven in India? Afghan, yes. But other than them?

Re AirmArshal 61

Airmarshal your interact touched on something I`ve been wondering for a while. Perhaps you could provide a perspective, if not reasons (I doubt there will be a simple reason) as to why so many Pakistani (and I mean W and E both) politicians, military officers, intellectuals, and the like married foreign women in the last two generations? I mean you read about any `50s and `60s personality, chances are chap had a foreign bride. Please give me your take on it.

Ahmadzai

Managing ``non-conventional weapon``/spies/saboteurs etc is a very difficult challenge. All countries use them, but they build elaborate professional protective structures around them, so as to minimize the internal harm that may arise from them.

Giving refuge and citizenship to known violent criminals from other countries is not a very smart move. If you do, you ought to keep such elements locked up in a basement when they are in Pakistan, and no one should come to know about them.

For once, all you army supporters, please think in long-term strategic terms, even if you think you are engaged in war. In fact, if you think you are at war, then you ought to be more careful about the short-term and long-term ramifications of what you do.

Sure, you are able to kill a few people every now and then in India with Dawood Ibrahim`s help. But for that, are you willing to make him part of Pakistani society, a model for other Pakistanis?

I won`t make any jokes about Pathans this time because I want you to seriously consider the issues here.

Zafar,

Sorry for taking up your space.

To those interested: Please go to the `publish and discuss articles on social and cultural issues` board for further details on Hudood Laws.

Thank you.
Umer M.

ahmedzai #67 thanks for your good wishes for my late father.

We will therefore, as you say, agree to disagree on this point about indian fugitives on pakistani soil.

I shall leave this discussion then, but with the hope that you will give some further thought sometime on the question of how ``nonconventional weapons`` can turn out to be double edged swords both morally and practically. There was a time when muslims were proud of the chivalrous conduct of war set by the likes of Salahuddin Ayubi (who was respected so much even by those who fought major battles against him, that almost a thousand years after he died the Brits named one of their most popular armored vehicles after him - Saladin). It is sad how far we have slipped from those days that today we find it acceptable to give refuge to known killers of innocent people.

Tauheed :

I regret missing reading about the death of your father. May Allah rest his soul in peace. He was a brave man to have gone to Pakistan and worked there.

Let us agree to disagree on India`s wanted men on Pakistani soil. One, I believe that they are not on our soil. Two, if they are, its good to provide our ``non-conventional weapon``/spies/saboteurs a safe haven.

India also has provided safe haven to our wanted men. Discussing this will be sensitive from the point of view of political alliances in Pakistani politics at the moment.

Romair:
You forgot the missing Canadian link. After his divorce from Zeba Bakhtiar, Adnan Sami came to Missisagua (Toronto) with their son. His ex-wife filed a complaint of kidnapping against him as he presumably did not have the legal custody of the child. I believe the judgement went against him and he had to give up the custody of the child. And then, of course, he went to India.

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ahmedzai: There are no doubt good people on his team. I think the economic team - ishrat hussein (gov state bank) and the finance minister shaukat aziz are both very competent. While after 9/11 the rich nations realized that keeping pakistan in the woods (which had been done after nuclearization) would merely promote extremism in pakistan, turning this to pakistan`s advantage financially could not have been taken for granted. What is interesting is that they tried to get even more - the initial focus of the musharaff government in fact was on seeking an easing of trade restrictions on pakistani exports rather than on financial aid, but here domestic interests in developed countries proved too strong. So, what they achieved as second best in terms of financial support wasnt bad either.
There are many other talented pakistanis who are contributing their time as well (one chap I know, after retirement from a major financial institution in the US has been spending most of his time in Pakistan working to strengthen public service institutions). These are the heroes, sung and unsung, who keep pakistan moving.
Having said this, there is nothing the ordinary pakistani can do with respect to things like doing the right thing with respect to making sure that those committing crimes in India are given a safe haven in Pakistan. This is for musharaff to crack down on. As with all ``right thngs``, it is ultimately in our own national interest of making Pakistan a country of law and order. If we take care of this, our image will take care of itself. And if it doesnt, that is OK because we will still have that one thing no one can take away but ourselves: self-respect.

stuka #59 thanks for your kind words about my father who passed away last year. he really was an exceptional man in my view. even when he knew death was a few days away and the body started ``winding down`` (the brain tumor did not hurt, but rapidly halted his motor functions one after another), he kept his humor and his wits. a day before he lost his ability to speak, he dictated a letter to me where he left some final instructions including how and where he was to be buried. a couple of days later he was gone.

Don`t know much about Dawood Ibrahim.

Though someone who knows someone, who is in the know, told me that Dawood Ibrahim does live in Karachi. Or lived there. Kept their by the govt.

India misplayed its cards by piling troops on the Pakistan borders and then handing a list of twenty wanted people. The list was published and a large number of the individuals were actually Sikhs, wanted for the Khalistan movement. However, there is no way any Pakistani, much less a govt., would agree to hand over even Hitler to India, under threat; even if they wanted to. That would be considered worst than Adnan Sami applying for an Indian citizenship.

Pakistanis tend to lose all sense of right and wrong, if threatened.

A better approach would have been to do what Rajiv Gandhi did. Rumor has it that Benazir gave him the list of all the Sikhs who were the key players in the Khalistan movement. So maybe the Sikhs on this list are already in India. I am not sure how he got it from her, but India could have waited for her to come back into power, and she would have obliged again. Now even she will not do it, under threat.

I think the best strategy in such situations, is to take the issue to the International Court of Justice. If Pakistan is guilty, it will resist all attempts from the ICJ or other organizations` attempts for inspections/access to him. If Pakistan is innocent, it will allow them to look wherever they want. Easy way to expose anyone.

If he is in Pakistan, and is a Pakistani citizen now, then I don`t think there is an extradition treaty between the two countries. Though, if he is there, I think Pakistan should return him to India. If he is considered a spy of sorts, then he maybe providing intelligence to Pakistanis, if he has any. In that case, I am not sure what his official status would be.

But, a lesson for India. If you want something from Pakistan(is), wait a few months to a year, and someone will come along who can be bribed easily, and will give you whatever you need. The worst way to approach is through threats. It becomes a matter of izzat, and then even the ones who can be bribed are forced to develop pride.

dost-mittar/stuka/Manto: Adnan Sami`s father received a Sitara-e-Jurrat, as a pilot, which is pretty close to the highest award, without dying, one can get in a war. He then left, and joined the Pakistan Civil Service. And then maybe became the editor of KhaleejTimes in UAE.

The PAF of those days was very British oriented, and big into entertainment and partying. It produced some famous kids, who made it big in entertainment. I got to know some of them. Junaid Jamshed is the son of a PAF pilot. As is Marina Khan, whose father is a Nawab with a British wife. I think her husband is a Christian. And Adnan Sami, of course. And some more.

Adnan Sami is a very talented guy. I would put him one category below A.R. Rahman. People say Adnan has the fastest fingers in the world. Before he starting singing in India, he made a Pakistani movie with Zeba Bakhtiar, called Sargam. Asha Bhosle was supposed to sing the songs for it. I don`t know if she did.

Zeba Bakhtiar gained fame in Pakistani TV serial Anarkali. She is the daughter of the ex-Attorney General of Pakistan, from PPP, Yahya Bakhtiar. She reached the big leagues by being selected to star in the very coveted Raj Kapor, posthomous movie, Henna. But after that either she gave up, or wasn`t able to make it big in Bollywood. So she returned and married Adnan, after Sargam. They had one child and got divorced.

Since then Adnan, like most high budget Pakistani TV ads and videos producers, has been making videos in India. He went one step furthur and actually applied for citizenship in India. And regularly states that his mother is from India, or something similar. He then started singing songs for the Indian cricket team. So, he kind of lost his popularity in Pakistan, outside music. Still very popular in music, though. The Indian govt. apparently, refused the nationality. So now he seems to neither here, nor there.

His videos seem to be at the top of the charts in India regularly.

Tauheed at # 57:

I will personally endorse your father`s experience. And I would rise on my feet and pay him standing ovation any time. Unlike your father however, I had to turn down a Government contract on selfish motives - a senior Government Officer inducted in the Team by President told me at the outset, ``Please take care of yourself. You will find corruption no matter where you try to begin reengineering from and they will try to fail you. You got to have resolve to bring the change``.

I decided to continue working for easy money, because I did not have the resolve. But I do see people in the Team who have courage to make change happen.

On your extraditing thing, I would prefer that:

Pakistan keeps denying and let India badmouth, but we remain in good books of the West,

rather than:

face the uncertainty of Pakistan admitting and doing the right thing, India capitalizing and badmouthing even harder to lead West astray.

And thanks God we are routing for the same team :-)

TAhmed: Your father was definitely an exceptional man. No doubt about that.

Ahmadzai:

I had read that. My response to you was based on the assumption (which I believe is fact) that he is. My belief stems not only from Indian reports but also Pakistani. Specifically, reports in TFT and National Herald a few years back and recently in Dawn with regards to blasts in Karachi`s Kawish Plaza and interview of Pakistani Police chap who talked about ``certain underworls figures `` from Iindia.

The fact remains we know that Dawood is there. We know and your government knows that the bomb blasts were engineered by help of ISI and that Dawood was in Pakistan. While ideally one would like to take revenge against the ISI officers who did this, India accepts that is not possible.

As far as Dawood is concerned, Advani had brought it up with Musharaff as well. If you people think that Dawood knows too much, you can kill him and give India the body. Advani has also said that the 20 individuals can be handed over dead or alive. Oout of 20, u wanna keep the Pakistanis, fine. Give us the Indians. But, do not expect Iindia to take Pakistani protestations about wanting peace at face value otherwise.

Ahmedzai #55 I dont disagree with your point that the Indian government will cast any return of fugitives from Pakistan in a negative light. However, the point I had made was that:

(a) in returning the fugitives the Pakistan government would have done the right thing, and

(b) doing the right thing is more important than anything else, including bad mouthing from the Indian government.

On point 2, I agree that slow and easy wins the race. My concern with musharaff is that he may be going unduly slow and too easy. Here is one piece of evidence I have:

My father, after rejecting job offers from zia and later from the musharaff government (he didnt believe in military takeovers although he was a retired military officer himself), finally agreed at age 85 to work as consultant to the musharaff government and was tasked with modernizing madrassah syllabus. Despite his old age, he went to the ministry every day where he worked several hours every day without pay for several months, since he considered this important for Pakistan and for the madrassah students. In March 2003, after drafting the syllabus, he resigned when he realized that the government was not prepared to implement the changes. I will always remember his words: ``inhowN naiN maulvioN kay samnaiN ghootnay taek deeya haiN.`` (They - the musharaff government - are on their knees before the maulvis.``. He told me that he had told the government that when they were ready to implement the syllabus, he would again become available to support the effort. (He died last september incidentally).

Now one may argue that the musharaff government needed time to implement madrassah reforms, but my father`s experience does indicate that the reform effort is going slower than needed. But let us hope you are right and ultimately the reform will take place.

On the third point, like I said I am not in a position to judge how far he needs to go to appease the mullahs. All I can say is that as military strong man, he should be focussing on building up the democratic SYSTEM, including dismantling the dysfunctional pseudo-islamic institutions created by zia and bhutto in THEIR efforts to cling to power. He should be above making deals with interest groups like mullahs.

Finally, we dont have much of a choice, so let us hope that musharaff and jamali do a good job at economic development. The economy does seem to have picked up (5.3 percent growth projected this year, which is better than nothing), and Pakistan did get a Moody`s rating upgrade yesterday. But what pakistan needs most importantly is to be seen as a safe and stable place for global investors. That is possible only if musharaff does the right thing (the point made above).

Anyway, you and I are rooting for the same team (Pakistan). Thats for sure.

Tauheed`s various posts:

In response to my argument that if we admit that the Indian criminals are on Pakistani soil (although I believe that there is no such thing) then the extremist Indian Government would capitalize on it to score points rather than be genuinely thankful, you already have an evidence in Stuka`s post. And do consider that Stuka is a surprisingly moderate to the point of rebelliousness some times kind of Indian on this site.

Second, I hope you agree that slow and easy wins the race will hold out for present day Pakistan. Any harsh steps would be resisted. Resistance to change is a universally known phenomenon. As long as you agree with me that President Musharraf and PM Jamali provide a more viable alternate to extremist Islam, its OK by me.

Third, why the degrees of the Mullas were accepted is again to pacify the feelings of the Pakhtoon belt. Remember that MMA is the most organized of Pakistani institutions. The 6 parties together could have made our lives difficult all over Pakistan (not only NWFP)because of this organization. This was the findings of the survey before elections. Islamists were already sending rebellious messages.

The only weapon we have to weed out Mullas` induced extremism is economic development. President Musharraf / PM Jamali are the best bet for this.

Ahmadzai #54,

Dawood`s Pakistani passport numbers (for all his aliases) and his various addresses in
Karachi have been publicised and should not be difficult to find with a modest google
search.

Stuka:

Kindly read my long post to Tauheed saheb again. I assumed that the Indian accused are living in Pakistan for the sake of argument. Honestly speaking, I believe that they are not. That I had clearly mentioned at the outset.

I didn`t know Adnan Sami was acting. He could be the male version of TunTun.

Infact Adnan Sami Kham is another example of Pakistani terrorism. They send fatso like him but keep his gorgeous ex-wife Zeba Bakhtiar. :)

Waisey, I tht Adnan Sami`s father was a diplomat, not in PAF?

Romair,

Adnan Sami`s father Arshad Sami was a Sargodhian , a colleague no doubt of NHK and a great fighter pilot ... he won the sitara jurat or tamgha-e-jurat or something..

-YLH

Romair:
Has Adnan Sami turned into a full fledged actor or just made a cameo appearance? Re. his change of nationality, I dont think one can get Indian citizenship without completing a minimum number of years of residency, so he wouldn`t be eligible for it at the present time. I think that this change of residence may have something to do with an obscure clause of the Indian Tax laws, which gives a very favourable tax treatment for nine years after gaining Indian residence. In true Indian bureaucratic style, this category is called `resident but not ordinarily resident`. Amitabh Bachan is hanging on to this status even now.

Question..??


Why Do such tape suddenly appear out ot thin Air That too on Al-Jazera Only....

especially whenever Bush .Jr FEELs he is loosing out....

tahmad #48: Actually, I have only seen a few bits and pieces of his acting.

His videos are pretty good. I heard he tried hard to get Indian nationality, but they did not give it to him. His father received some pretty high gallantry medal in the war as a fighter pilot. He may have been a colleague of NazarHayatKhan.

Romair #46 That was funny. I saw this turncoat (just kidding) on Indian TV once and he wasnt a bad singer. The only thing he seems to terrorize is food. But if you say his acting amounts to terrorism then that must be so too.

Stuka #45,

``Ahmadzai: Do you think Indians are idiots?`` Of course he does. In anycase, I think Dawood is a Pakistani citizen now and extraditing him would involve all kinds of shady
third party deals through Dubai or some such place ( didn`t they do that for one of
Dawood`s henchmen ?).

stuka: ``I challenge you to name some Pakistani terrorists who have been given refuge in India.``

Adnan Sami Khan.

Have you seen his performance in the movie Sargam. It is nothing short of terrorism.

Ahmadzai:

Do you think Indians are idiots? It is because Pakistan has people like Dawood that we call Ppakistan the epicentre of terrorism. Iif Dawood was in Nepal, or Sri Lanka, would Pakistan`s name come up.

You say that you have given refuge to Dawood Ibrahim? Then how are you NOT the epicentre of terrorism if you give refuge to foreign nationals who have commited crimes in the country of origin.

You say..

``All we need to do is to blame some of ``our`` people living in exile in India, indict them and ask for extradition. Top on this list, would be Advani.

Iis Advani a Pakistani citizen? Are we asking you for Pakistanis or Indians? Dawood Ibrahim is an Indian, indicted for multiple explosions in a city killing hundreds of people. The fact is Pakistan does not have a list of Pakistani terrorists in India. Most Pakistani terrorists are actually home bred, and go to Afghanistan where even a friendly regime like Taliban would not hand them over. Remember Riaz Basra? He moved to Pakistan only after Northern Alliance took power.


``Would India agree to a situation like that? ``


I challenge you to name some Pakistani terrorists who have been given refuge in India.

ahmedzai: On your point 3 (implementing reform in madrassahs): i am not sure how deep these reforms go. computer literacy is certainly a good forward step. certainly i am in no position to say one way or another since i have not visited these madrassahs in pakistan, and there is precious little newspaper coverage on the subject.

On your point 4: isnt it true that the BA requirement was effectively lifted on mullahs by accepting madrassah ``degrees`` as being equivalent? this allowed a number of these individuals to qualify for elections while their opponents from secular parties were disqualified. clearly, this acceptance of the madrassah degree is at odds with point 3 above where everyone (musharaff down) agrees tht madrassah syllabus needs to be changed.

Also, even accepting your point that the MMA victory in NWFP resulted from anger at the US for giving the mullahs what they said they wanted (to take on the US), i dont think it provides the complete answer. A part of it had to do with the absence of leadership in the secular parties - while one can accept (and indeed applaud) musharaff`s reasons for keeping NS and BB out of the picture (those people have had their day and disappointed their countrymen), couldnt he have done more to build up replacements for them? there are surely a good number of potential secular party leaders among the district nazims. clearly musharaff can do much to pull up district nazims who do a good job in their districts (e.g. giving them national recognition by publicly congratulating them), using his influence to ensure inner party democracy in secular parties (thus killing once and for all that bane of pakistan politics whereby the political personalities dominate the party system and not vice versa)

ahmedzai: on the second point i raised: why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people``

you write : ``...Since people are anchored on wrong ways of doing things, you need to `unfreeze` them of that by obtaining a total buy-in of the Right Way of doing things...President Musharraf has opted for the 2nd route. ...Also, there are thousands of Mullas in cities, towns and villages, who preach extremism. He has already asked the people to point out those and boycott them. According to new rules, these Mullas can be arrested if surmoning against the spirit of Islam that you described.``

The second route would certainly be the correct one. However, to follow it would mean taking specific steps. Key steps would include (a) an education program for mullahs to teach them the message of the Quran (as opposed to merely reciting the words) with particular focus on the basic message of peace. (b) The syllabus in madrassahs would need to be updated (along similar lines, and as I mentioned earlier) so they no longer mislead boys of poor families into violence. (c) the Hadood Ordinance and the Blasphemy Laws which have no basis on the Quran would need to be abolished. These are all steps where Musharaff ALREADY took half steps towards, and then backed off when faced with opposition from the mullahs. So, while the intent may be there, let us hope he is able to do in future what he has so far not been able to do. Otherwise, this second path will remain a nonstarter...

ahmedzai #40 I shall respond to the first item now, and come back to the rest in a subsequent post.

On why dawood is not being extradited (and assuming as you say that the Foreign Office claim that he is not in Pakistan is not correct):

``One, there is no agreement of extradition between the two countries.``

We should then have an extradition treaty I think. And in any case where there is a political will, there is a legal way for countries. But an extradition treaty would be the proper first step, since that would include a judicial process to ensure that there is a strong criminal case against the individual in India.

``Two, these people have perhaps sought refuge in Pakistan. Why should we hand them over to India when we know very well that India will capitalize on this telling everybody, `look we told you that Pakistan is an epicenter of terrorism``.

Because doing the right thing is more important (and ultimately more fruitful) than winning brownie points.
And in any case, Pakistan`s actions would speak louder than India`s words (assuming the Indian government chose to take this course of action). Throughout much of the 1990`s, the Indian government tried its best to have the US label Pakistan a rogue state - didnt happen. And after 9/11 (much to BJP`s chagrin) the US was pals with Pakistan again.

``Three, even if Pakistan hands them over, India will claim what is in vogue these days ``its not enough, Pakistan needs to do more``.

Same response as before: it is more important to do the right thing then to worry about one`s image. The image, for whatever it is worth, ultimately catches up anyway.

``Four, Pakistan can very easily come up with a list of its own.``

Who? If there was such a list, no doubt the Pakistan government would have already whipped it out in response to India`s demands. In any case, this would be all the more reason to have that extradition treaty, in fact.

Tauheed at # 38:

Thanks.

I would like to respond to your points that can be debated one by one:

1. ``Thus, I dont understand why he doesnt take known lawbreakers from India and hand them back (these include this fellow dawood who i understand is wanted in india for planting bombs in bombay);``

My response: Although I would like to agree with our Foreign Office statements from time to time that Dawood is not in Pakistan, let us for argument sake accept that he is in Pakistan. One, there is no agreement of extradition between the two countries. Two, these people have perhaps sought refuge in Pakistan. Why should we hand them over to India when we know very well that India will capitalize on this telling everybody, `look we told you that Pakistan is an epicenter of terrorism``. Three, even if Pakistan hands them over, India will claim what is in vogue these days ``its not enough, Pakistan needs to do more``. Four, Pakistan can very easily come up with a list of its own. All we need to do is to blame some of our people living in exile in India, indict them and ask for extradition. Top on this list, would be Advani. Would India agree to a situation like that?

2. ``why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people;``

My response: See when you are trying to go for Business Process Reegineering or Change, then you have two methodologies available to you. (1) Follow the traditional route advocated by Hammer and Champy: Go for the kill, wipe out all the resistance and enforce the change (2) Since people are anchored on wrong ways of doing things, you need to `unfreeze` them of that by obtaining a total buy-in of the Right Way of doing things, `imbibe` them with the Right Way and `refreeze` them of the Right Way so that they continue doing the right things. President Musharraf has opted for the 2nd route. He is trying to educate Pakistanis on the evils of the past way of doing things. Thus, you hear him saying things like, ``The threat to Pakistan is internally from extremism``, `` we need to be an example of moderate and progressive Islam``, ``terrorists hiding in caves cannot be our leaders``, etc. Also, there are thousands of Mullas in cities, towns and villages, who preach extremism. He has already asked the people to point out those and boycott them. According to new rules, these Mullas can be arrested if surmoning against the spirit of Islam that you described.

3. ``why he allows madrassahs to flourish and preach the mullah version of islam (by all means teach islam, but teach them the peaceful message of the Quran, not the hate-filled message of the ignorant mullah, and also teach them skills they can earn an honest living with rather than skills that only thugs and goondas can use);``

My response: The new laws on Madressas have already been implemented. There would be new curriculum for the Madressas. Information Technology e.g. would be mandatory under this new curriculum. If he takes on Madressas the way you want, there would be total anarchy in Pakistan. The Madressas are very well organized and cannot be taken head on forcefully. We have to obtain a complete buy-in to bring change. His policy of Enlightened Moderation is both for Pakistanis and for Muslims.

4.`` why he fiddled with the elections to make the mullahs come to power in NWFP and also gain more seats than they ever received in previous elections in the center.``

My response: He did not fiddle in the elections. I have always said that the support for Mullas in Pakistan is real as an aftermath of US`s Afghanistan invasion. But hearing all those arguments, some times people jokingly say that perhaps he should have fiddled and kept the Mullas away by poll rigging. He was intelligent that he did not. I tell you honestly if he had done that, there would have been rebellion against military in the Pakhtoon belt. We needed to vent out our anger against Pakistan`s u-turn on Talibani policy. Elections win allowed us to do that. Why we wanted to have Mullas? You bet it was emotionalism. People tend to make unintelligent decisions under emotionalism. President Musharraf knew that. Now he gave Pakhtoons what we wanted to have, he is trying to keep MMA under check by a stick and carrot approach, knowing fully well that too much of stick will lead to civil unrest and too much of carrot to MMA means making a u-turn on a u-turn.

veeresh #39 your false modesty is most becoming.

tahmed32, #38 . . . please, sirji . . . with utmost humility and respect . . . there is nothing more we in India want than to see Pakistan grow the way you have pointed out . . . but then you for some reason add our internal issues which (including Thakeray and Kashmir and a few others) let us solve or stew in?

As for nuke being dumped on heads, please be aware that as ahmedmadani ji has pointed out in the past even if 15 million people die in Pakistan & India combined then be assured that we can crank that many fresh ones out in another nine months.

Best you can do is for all Pakistanis to start looking inwards and fixing your own lamp-posts and streets and education and . . . define Muslim.

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ahmedzai #34 Great post.

On India: I agree that India does not pose any immediate danger to Pakistan. The prospect of having a nuke dumped on their heads has served to cool the burning need of the Thakeray crowd in India to humiliate Pakistan. BUT, this is no long term solution. The long term solution is to reduce the Thakerays of India to their proper place - namely that of the lunatic fringe - and to encourage the voices of sanity in India. And there is no shortage of the latter in India, and indeed they constitute the ``silent majority`` of India. Attitudes towards Pakistan will take several years to change in India, but it can be done, and the time to start working at it for the Pakistan government is now. In the meantime, the best we can do as Pakistanis is to promote friendship at the nongovernment level.

On ben laden: Agreed that he and his followers represent the biggest threat to Pakistan. I am not fully in agreement on Musharaff. I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong. Thus, I dont understand why he doesnt take known lawbreakers from India and hand them back (these include this fellow dawood who i understand is wanted in india for planting bombs in bombay); why he doesnt arrest mullahs who preach hatred towards other people; why he allows madrassahs to flourish and preach the mullah version of islam (by all means teach islam, but teach them the peaceful message of the Quran, not the hate-filled message of the ignorant mullah, and also teach them skills they can earn an honest living with rather than skills that only thugs and goondas can use); why he fiddled with the elections to make the mullahs come to power in NWFP and also gain more seats than they ever received in previous elections in the center. Perhaps Musharaff has to face realities that you and I as ordinary citizens do not. Nevertheless, regardless of intentions, I think you will agree that Pakistan can and should recognize the real danger to Pakistan - which as you correctly point out is ben laden and his followers.

wajahat #35 I couldnt have put it better. Let these ba!stards stew in their own hatred of Pakistan. We need to focus on what is good for the average Pakistani, and that is all that really matters, and this means not losing our focus on the fact that the rabid pakistan haters of the kind we have on chowk do not represent the average indian. (I would not write this if i had not known enough decent indians in real life, and we have a number of them on chowk as well).

Tahmed

In complete agreement with you that the a minority of the Indian Interactors can only talk whilst bashing Paki, Jihadis, Ahabs, Japs or any other racist terminology employed by these to prove the authenticity of their argument.

veeresh #32 in fact immigrants of all nationalities worked for Henry Ford. At a village there, I saw a sign providing instructions to workers on the factory floor of a Model T plant which was in 8 different languages and employed three or four different scripts - english, cyrillic, arabic - which (contrary to what you write) is clear evidence that workers of all nationalities worked there.

Also, the wage rate of the factory worker at model t was well above the going rate for farm hands etc. and thus highly valued. (I think it was $5 a day back then).

As for the arab identity, the commonalities of culture between arabs - language, customs, traditional dresses, and so on - are far greater than their differences.

Tauheed at # 21:

I agree with your suggestion whole-heartedly.

However, honestly speaking, I am not concerned with Pakistan`s relations with India. I am concerned with Osama, Al Qaeda and Talibani influences. I believe that people of Pakistani origin, as indeed all other Muslims should get united in denouncing Osama and Al Qaeda in the strongest of terms (my apprehensions stem from the fact that if Osama is a creation of the West to fool Muslims into getting into a forced conflict with them, then we have to beat the trap).

At this time, we have to accept the fact that its leaders like President Musharraf, who are offering resistance to Osama`s mesmerizing messages. In this regard, the joint speech of Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and President Musharraf against Osama and terrorism are timely.

I know that many people feel that President Musharraf`s opposition to Osama and Al Qaeda is not genuine. But these are accusations at best. All Muslim leaders have welcomed President Musharraf`s stance and his suggestions for opposition to terrorism have been implemented at OIC. This proves that at international level, there is an agreement that President is not in league with Osama.

It is the extremist Indians who are doing all the propaganda against him, because they have their axes to grind. Unfortunately, I see PPP (and Nawaz) supporters falling in the same trap, because they too resent Musharraf. But just because I am against Benazir should not mean that when she comes in power, I start criticizing Pakistan and herself in the same tone as extremist Indians are doing.

I mean come on. If you read some posts and articles from supposedly Pakistani posters, you cannot differentiate between them and Indians.

We have to accept the ground realities. President Musharraf had the support of majority of Pakistanis and may still have it. But if all the anti-Mulla/Talibani/OBL Pakistanis start fighting amongst ourselves, then surely he will lose support. BB and Nawaz are out. Perhaps they may come back in 10 years, but for now even their presence will not make any difference. The fact is that if BB and Nawaz are allowed to come back and participate in elections, Mullas will bag more seats since the anti-Mulla votes will get further split. Support for Mullas in Pakistan is genuine and staunch. This may be under emotionalism, but if it is so, we have to find unemotional ways to lead them out of this path of religious extremism that leads to destruction. And we have to do it very intelligently so as not to make them look abandoned and dumped for they are Pakistanis too and are better than the province based nationalists at least.

tahmed 32 and Arabs in Dearborn . . . such pride in trying to project the joys of being Muslims there . . . but a few simple truths/facts he forgot:-

a) The Arabs came in to work for the engineering/automobile industries because the whites wouldnt/couldnt and African Americans were not hired by that Great Equal Opportunity employer, Henry Ford. So equal, that details of his offering equal employment in nazi Germany bear out truths.

b) The Arab-American identity, mainly Lebanese till WW-2, is still more Christian & Jewish than Muslim. (Now we can go into the definition of Muslim again, and include instead of excluding?)

c) The recent Iraqi entries are viewed as totally different.

+++

On Zafar`s article, here in India, which I still maintain is the best place for all kinds of Muslims (including women Muslims, non-Wahhabi Muslims, thinking Muslims, etcetc), Al Qaeda is considered to be a strange name for wrong guys. These wrong/bad guys have always existed, at this time in history they happen to be one type of Muslims. Question of being scared does not arise, it is like saying, are you scared of moving out of your house because there are road rollers around, and buses?

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dost-mittar,

``How many hindus have heard of Kalki``

You`re right, most hindus have never heard of kalki. Most hindus have never heard a lot of supposed hindu things.


``How many of those who have heard about him believe in a kalki?``

Again you`re right. Most hindus don`t believe a lot of their inherited religion anyway.
(And thanks be to that. Our religion rests very lightly on our minds!)


``How many of them know he will reestablish the purity of the caste system?``

None I guess. I`m trying to recall where I read that(Puranas, mahabharata??). No luck yet. Will let you know when the ol` bulb flickers again!

- - - - - - - - -

RationalFaith,

At the risk of boring you...

Hindu culture has these immense books (size-wise) and extremely intricate stories/myths intervoven with the science/math/astronomy of those days...all of which goes to disprove the theory that the brahmans just sat on their behinds doing nothing all day, while others toiled.

Time was divided into cycles. The bigger cycle containing several smaller cycles...while itself being contained in a still bigger cycle, and so on. And Man`s life on earth was tied inextricably to those cycles.

The fundamental time cycle was the mahayuga...itself composed of 4 minor yugas: krita, treta, dva, kali.

Have you seen an indian dice? Its a brass rod of rectangular cross-section with dots inscribed on each face for 1,2,3 and 4 (no 5 or 6). If you throw a 4, you win.

A `4` means Krita (which means victory).

There`s this concept of the `cow of virtue`. In the krita yuga, the cow of virtue stands on all 4 legs (i.e. 100% virtue). All people are brahmans. Man lives for 400 years.

In the treta yuga, the cow loses one leg (only 75% virtue). Most people are brahmans, but some are not. Man lives 300 years.

In the dva, the cow loses yet another leg (50% virtue). Brahmans and others are about half-and-half. Man lives 200 years.

In the kali (meaning one), the cow is down to one sinle leg (virtue is down to 25%). Brahmans are few. Most people are non-brhamans. Man lives only 100 years. There is intense caste-mixing and caste-confusion. Brahmans become deceitful, start doing non-brahman type work while the non-brahman does brahman type work. IOW, the world is one big mess.

Needless to say, we are in kali at the moment! ... which has 432,000 years...of which 5000 are past.

At the end of kali...(things are really really bad now) ...comes 10th avatar Mr. Kalki (born to a brahman, of course!). He basically slaughters everyone not a brahman (leaving a few perhaps, for menial chores, etc), and magnanimously hands over the earth back to the brahmans...and so a krita begins anew...

- - - - - - -

Yes, I remember reading some web site about Mohammed being kalki. But he`s a mite early!

In south india especially, there appear nuts on a regular basis claimimg to be kalki. The last one I remember about 10 years ago. He came public briefly before disappearing. On being asked why he disppeared, his chela said ``At this time if kalki showed himself, the earth couldn`t possibly bear it``!!!

Brat #26 Thank you. I am glad we have people like you around on chowk to demonstrate that all Indians are not a bunch of nuts like Jay and Arjun.

hamidm2 #27 perhaps you should make a video of urstruly (wearing a false beard) reading out his posts with an arab accent. You could sell it to Saturday Night Live.

PS: Dont give up hope. I spent the weekend near the home of the Arab-Americans - Dearborn, Michigan - and indeed the place is full of Arabs. They are in fact perfectly normal people. None of this ``world-wide anti-muslim conspiracy`` theories or anything. They serve great healthy mediterrnean food, have a great sense of humor, and dress and talk like normal people. Even Henry Ford - the quintessential american - had arab blood from his mother`s side, and in fact it is due to him that michigan is the arab capital of the US.

...... the emissary ......

......urstruly is a worthy emissary of the man who lives in a cave ................ he has eloquently presented osama`s six demands and has proposed that if they are met by the wicked west the ummah will simmer down, forget their dreams of establishing the khilafat, and start shaving and behaving like civilized men ............. i don`t think so ...............as syed qutub, ursruly`s peer and murshid, pointed out - the west is antithetical to islam and muslims will never be able to practice their deen and madhab in a secular world ............. this is a war of ideas, and hopefully the idea of freedom will triumph over the idea of slavery under a tyrannical god and his cave-dwelling apostles .............

bravo tahmed32 #25 for not falling into arjun_m`s trap. wonder what will happen when our typical chowkies stop getting a raise out of their pet issues!!

arjun #24 your opinions - on pakistanis, on indians, on anything else - interest me slightly less than the views of the african howling monkey`s views on subatomic physics (and that frankly is all you can do on chowk....howl ``paki! paki! paki!`` ten times a day, or when offered some peanuts as reward).

while there is no shortage of your kind of indian on chowk, i have met enough indians to realize that you dont represent the average indian.

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ahmedzai #19 i think you are only partially right on india. sure there are followers of modi (or just plain pakistani haters, victims no doubt of brainwashing and/or their own low-esteem). but there are far more people in india who are neither followers of modi, nor obsessed with pakistan. they seek the same thing that most pakistani seek, or indeed most people of any naitonality seek: a better future for themselves and their children.

i think we should define our view of india by these ``silent majority`` of india, and indeed define all people the same way.

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Hiding in cave and running for his life, Osama cannot provide any leadership to any one except extremists of the extremists. It will be leaders like Pakistan`s President Musharraf, Malaysia`s Badawi, etc, who will be acknowledged as new leaders.

The worries of an average mortal should be that while 1 billion Muslims of the Islamic countries and those living in non-Muslim lands will have to decide which model to follow i.e. Enlightened Moderation of Musharraf or terrorism of Osama, Indians are willingly following only one model - extremism and fundamentalism offered by Advanis, Joshis and Modis. Therefore, its Indians who have to do serious soul searching.

Ironman

Can you tell a little more about Kalki? Is that the tenth avathar? Admittedly, my knowledge of Hinduism is poor but I didnt hear any of my friends ever mention his name?

To lift your spirits, we may not have to wait that long. Recently some Pakistani posted that Kalki has already arrived. You know who this was supposed to be?

No prizes for guessing the name of this Arab who went around ethnic cleansing. He also established a pure caste - Muslims :)

Well I do call myself a liberal and hated Bin Laden of what he
did on 9/11 (specially it`s tough for someone who has lived in
Big Apple for years) but after the Afghan Episode,The Iraqi Invasion
(though I think Iraqis are better off now) and now the US sanctions
on Syria ....things have started to change .. Osama Bin Laden seems
to be quite `right` in his taughts at times but at times he`s the same
person who ruined the image of Islam and Muslims arround the world?
mixed feelings..? so whos to blame? Bin Laden or US (who made Bin
Laden .. Bin Laden?)
some taughts...!

We agree than that in essence the US has choose to ignore the facts that could have promoted betterment in our region. Instead their is stark evidence that in destabilisation of our region lies the ultimate goal of the Christian-Zionist imperial designs. Although everytime a Muslim complains about this theme he is told that he should try and sort his mess out without blaming the west. This is the Ironic Catch 22 which the moderates face. And offcourse every one else apart from the Christain-Zionist nexus, the russians, the indians, will use this to bash us collectively without really trying to understand that we will never be able to answer the root causes on our own. What Edward Said Called the tragic overlap of all the regions with one an other and our collective fate.

Why does not Osama the Menace think that the US is going to surrender to all the suicide bombings and terrorist attacks with a speech by the President Bush himself declaring an end to all search operations and attacks on the so-called rouge states? Why is he still lurking around rocky mountains making plans when his meaningless never ending jihad would never terminate according to his expectations... and mind it... to write Osamas jihad with a capital J is disrespect for this true Islamic concept.

Mr Bush has taken this world for a ride..

Infact ..he should be tried for the mass murder of american peoples in the 911 demolition

there is no such thing as a a Muslim Osama Bin Laden...he is playing a similiar role as that of
lawerence of Arabia..


He is a CIA agent....and if He is involved in all these terrorist acts that he is just following a Bush game plan..

Just a hint...

download the 911 demolition video from cnn`s site...and play is in slowmotion..if you can..

you will notice...
1- the first plane seems to fire something before....crashing..in...
2- the second planee struck after aboput half hour...When the whole media attention was on the the plane`s colliision... and he too seems to have something tied under its belly..


Watch that video again...and you will immediately notice...its a control demolition...


every thing....collappsed into inself.....nothing fell out except some deberis...


and the best of all....there has been no real.....INVESTIGATION of the watershed 911 so far



and if as its said...that the fire from the planes....MELTEFD the steel structure... and then collapled..

and this is a very stupid argument....

and it is news unbelievable news.......the solid steel structures...which requires high temp acytelene toreches burning at above 1600 C temp to just cut steel...
are in fact obselete....you can simply melt this steel with a sprinkle or a jet feul...which burns at most at 300 C ..


Maybe later some other time.... I will put forward more argument... that 911 is infact an
inside Job....

wajahat #9

Please get this out of your system once and for all:

``poverty, corruption and a lack of a opportunities`` DO NOT LEAD to the behavior Muslims display. Killing of innocents is promoted by ideologies of hate, by incitement against followers of other religions, by mullah and mosques, and in the case of Mcveigh, by groups nurtured on hate.

Instead of waiting for another prophet leader, Muslims should begin fixing the way they think and view the world around them.

The first step is to get this into their heads that others are NOT DIFFERENT from how they are, that others can hate Muslims back if Muslims preach hatred of others.

When Shias are killed in Pakistan, NO PAKISTANI asks the Pakistani government to look at the ROOT CAUSE of ``poverty, corruption, and lack of opportunities.``

Shias are shot to death in Karachi because there are people in Pakistan who openly preach that Shias are not real Muslims, that they are kafirs. That`s why in killing Shias, it is not the very poorest of Pakistan who are involved.

Don`t expect others to swallow the sh$t that shias and sunnis don`t swallow from each other.

ironman:
``In hinduism the last ethnic cleanser is a guy called Kalki (...he will come with flashing sword and speedy steed....). When that mythology was written, there were no muslims or christians or anything else other than hinduism and its 4 castes. ``....``He fixes the castes structure back to its pristine purity from the `chaos` of `caste mixing`. Thats what he does. IOW, He kills all the caste half-breeds.``

Questions:
-How many hindus have heard of Kalki? [My guess is 10% or less; the only times I`ve heard about him is when I`ve watched a Bharat Natyam performance of dash-avatar];
-How many of those who have heard about him believe in a kalki?
-How many of them know he will reestablish the purity of the caste system? [Thanks for adding this bit to my general knowledge; I had thought that he too would have some kind of general purpose of establishing the victory of the good over evil!]

``In the Islamic primer Taleem-ul-Islam, a part of compulsory moral education in our school, we were warned of a time before the doomsday when the world would be divided into two camps: the Muslims and the Non-Muslims. A leader would emerge from amongst the Muslims and declare a war against the seemingly all-powerful heathens. The war would result in a victory for the devout Muslims, and those who were not devout would perish. ``

What is ``moral`` about this education?
A question to muslim friends: How many of you were taught this book in your childhood? The answer is important even if, with your higher educationa and sophistication, you no longer believe in such predictions. Because most children who have been taught this message at an impressionable age and internalised it, like the hindus internalise caste distinctions, would still be influenced by it. We have seen how hard it has been for India to get rid of casteism despite two generations of state and public sermonising against this evil.

wajahat # 1

OBL may not be an officially appointed spokesperson of the Muslim world and Muslim world may oppose or even be disgusted by the tactics he has allegedly used yet there is no differences between his objectives and that of the Muslim world. Two years ago I wrote an article titled ``The Clash of Uncivilizations & Osama-ism`` thru which I argued this point in all details. I argued that at that time we had two choices:

1. address the issues which OBL presents as his objectives and burry OBL in the annals of history is a criminal and a mass-murderer for good.

2. Maintain the status quo and turn what is now just Osama into Osama-ism.

Unfortunately the Americans and the West chose the second option and brought the world on the verge of third world war. Those six objectives with some minor changes still hold true..

That is what I wrote two years ago:



1. To put an end to the inhuman sanctions to the people of Iraq

2. To find a peaceful and honorable solution to the Palestinian issue

3. To reach a peaceful and honorable agreement between Palestinians and Arabs.

4. The evacuattion of Western occupational forces from Saudi Arabia and Gulf

5. To reach an honorbal, peacfull, and reasonable solution to the problems in Kashmir, Albania, Chechniya, East Taimur, Philipines, etc.

6. To stop the Western support of des[potic and tyrranical regimes throughout the Muslim World.

arjun

How many christians asked to look at the ``root cause`` when Tim McVeigh blew up innocent people?

It is this knowledge arjun that makes us even more worried about the consequences of whats happening in our world today. Osama does not represent us, no matter how much the West would like him too. However we know how bad the leadership crisis really is. And how poverty, corruption and a lack of a opportunities are driving men towards the fundamentalist ideaology. But to overlook a region and the basis of the problem is never going to solve it, it will multiply it by a million. Look at Iraq for example, taking over it and getting rid of saddam was just an initiation of the problem. The problem is just begining to take shape now.

There isn`t anything in this world as Muslim world, Christian world, Bahai world, Hindu world etc. There are nations and leaders of some nations with Muslim majority population are doing their part of harming Muslims. Musharraf and Mahathir doing through OIC and Bin Laden doing it through Al-Jazeera tapes is same shit - O` Muslim of the world do this and do that.

Let me see if I can convince Saminashah to use her influence on Amy Goodwin to convince Michael Moore to write another book, ``Stupid Muslim Men``.

It is a war between the competing Prophets,
competing Prophecies,
competing Prophet followers,
this is war for CONTROL over the souls of men and hence the riches of the world,
it is all about greed, lust and jealousy- it is not about peace of heavens but fires of hell.

Zafar, ussa,

This armageddon, last saviour, etc theories abound in every religion I guess.

In hinduism the last ethnic cleanser is a guy called Kalki (...he will come with flashing sword and speedy steed....). When that mythology was written, there were no muslims or christians or anything else other than hinduism and its 4 castes.

So what does kalki do? Whom does he kill?

He fixes the castes structure back to its pristine purity from the `chaos` of `caste mixing`. Thats what he does. IOW, He kills all the caste half-breeds.

(Nothing to fidget about though, there`s still another 427,000 years to wait for his arrival. He`s `kalki baat` at the moment!!)

Why Osama and Saddam should not be killed:

They should bre made to live their lives in humiliation, self imposed exiles, weak, feeble and under pity from the rest of the Ummah so that the images of valour that they had created in the minds of ummah is effectively destroyed. They should not be made to look like martyrs but like dogs on run.
I am all in favour of letting the world watch them in pity
Mushy supports this by allowing him a haven in borders . This gives him a good opportunity to take over the terror network through ISI and direct the Al-Qaeda`s attention towards Kashmir.
Every thing is going as per the plan guys. Just watch and wait, till our guy Mushy gets busted!!

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While the article dealt with the ifs, ands and buts of the Osama tapes, I was more struck by your somewhat casual reference to the primer Taleem -ul - Islam that you allude to. Is this polemic to hate and intolerance still being distributed to our young Muslim children? And you were offered this diatribe in your school in Free India, presumably in the early 1980`s?

I shudder to think of the challenges that secularism faces in the place of my birth, if this is still the case.

Perhaps you as a reflective and educated citizen will see that it is distributed no longer.
Freedom of speech does not cover hate and bias indoctrination, as this drivel appears to represent.

---

The author wrote:

When I was in school, ..... I was struck by the prophecies of doomsday. In the Islamic primer Taleem-ul-Islam, a part of compulsory moral education in our school, we were warned of a time before the doomsday when the world would be divided into two camps: the Muslims and the Non-Muslims. A leader would emerge from amongst the Muslims and declare a war against the seemingly all-powerful heathens. The war would result in a victory for the devout Muslims, and those who were not devout would perish................

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One thing that stands out with this whole tape thing, is that it is aimed upon the people of United States. It is done on a regular basis to keep them in check, keep them in fear of the boogeyman. The reality is that these so called Osama`s tapes get more airtime and anytime in the West specially the US then it does in the Muslim Countries. One thing that we have to agree upon is that OSAMA BIN LADIN IS NOT (i repeat) NOT A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MUSLIM WORLD and this distortion by the US Media has to be stopped by atleast us, who actually are in succinct knowledge of the ground reality. Infact the muslim world is as leader less as it was pre 9/11. It should be our responsibilty as Muslims to disemanate this distortion from the western psyche. Herman Goering said it after WW2, is easy to control people, just tell them they are in danger and they will blindly agree with whatever you feel is neccessary to protect them. America , some say is standing on the brink of a similar type of fascism. The fear is neccessary to keep Americans Afraid of the raghead Boogeyman from the east so that the Oil And Arms firms can stay in business.

As for the Muslim World, this tunnel vision generalisation of the Islamic world greatly reduces the chances for us to critically look at the problems and even more difficult to come about at solutions. Instead we keep churning out the same old Western Mantra of Modernisation at the speed of light. And as for the belief that the world will ultimately divide under two opposing banners, let us try and slow the drive to that day and not join the Bush and Bin Ladin who keep pushing us towards that place at break neck speeds.