Orissa: A Gujarat in the making

jang #119::

Your description about Jains and their social norms/behaviors is pretty accurate. I wonder which part of India you are from and what is the level of interaction you have had with `them`.

``very tribal (try getting into as jain dharmashala``

This is true. Most Jain dharmashalas are pretty much exclusive to Jains. Apart from tribal considerations, the reason might be they don`t want these places, usually attached with a place of worship(Mandir) defiled by inappropriate behavior like meat-eating etc. I suppose the assumption is that Jains will be respectful of the restrictions whereas others might not be.

On the other hand the many charitable organizations, hospitals, schools etc built by Jain organizations are obviously open to every one...It is the social institutions that Jains are very `tribal` about. This might be because of living in a predominantly nonJain society.

[they love wealth accumulation, but dont display it]
Not true anymore. Like everyone else in India these days, ostentation has increased by leaps and bounds. And it is also determined by the ethnicity, Punjus vs Marus vs Gujjus. Punjus more ostentatious than Marus than Gujjus..

[in bussiness, they are very exclusionary with non-jains and cartel heavily esp. in trading. ]

True but the cartels are more caste like structures. For example, the diamond cutting, polishing and trading business in India is centered almost solely in Surat and Bombay... At both places it`s Palanpur(a district in North Gujarat bordering Rajasthan)Jains that dominate and almost totally control the business. The barrier to entry is very high even for other Jains in this business...

Such cartels I am sure also exist among other communities...One example that comes to mind is Agrawals of northern and central Rajasthan(some of whom - about 25% are Jains, rest are Vaishnavs), who tend to build pretty strong cartels themselves..

A lot of people attribute the Jains`s success to their religious philosophy and social norms. This might be true partially, but there is another angle to it.

Most businessmen Jains are from Gujarat, Rajasthan and Punjab. An interesting study to do would be to compare the success of Gujarati Jains with Gujarati Vaishnav Vanias(like Ambanis), Marwari Jains with Marwari Maheshwaris and Agrawals, Punjabi Jains with other Punjabi trading castes..If that is done, it might turn out that Jains have done no better or worse than other trading communities of their respective regions..

In fact Agrawals of northern Rajasthan (25% Jains, 75% Vaishnavs) are by far, IMO, the most financially successful caste group in India and the Maheshwaris (Bajaj, Birla) etc also haven`t done so far.. Similarly for Gujjus, Ambanis and Ketan Parekh are Vaishnavs, as opposed to Harshad Mehta (Jain)..

[and they really look down upon all meat eaters]

I would rephrase that to ``look down upon all kinds of meat eating``. As karuash pointed out, there are always exceptions..

[they have pretty much have had no conflicts with other communities over times]

Might not be true for the middle ages... Jainism was atleast in competition with Hinduism(after Buddhism got wiped out) all over Southern India.. It lost in TN, Andhra and Kerala.. The only presence in South India it has is in northern Karnataka and southern Maharashtra..
However there were probably no conflicts in Gujarat, Rajasthan and western MP, the regions where it still is fairly significant.

[so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude?]

This is actually true..Ever since Mahavir Swami`s times there has hardly been any change in the principles or practice of the religion, which by Indian standards is pretty remarkable.

[define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success. ]

The ``dont believe in God`` is not laid out explicitly (after all Jains are not atheists in the Western sense) and many lay Jains will be surprised to know this.. However the emphasis is solely on Karma and Jains have had to include non-Tirthankar intermediary Gods(considered lesser and subservient to Tirthankars), some new and some common with Hindus, to satisfy the common people`s need for savior Gods.

--Satyavadi

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

saminasha:
``I encourage you to set forth your understanding of Hindutva ideology. ``

Haven`t interacted with you in a long time!
I think it is not entirely pmishra`s fault if he does not understand hindutva ideology. And your ``progressive`` friends (do marxists have a monopoly on that word?:-)) also cannot fully comprehend it because it is such a nebulous concept. At its most benign, represented by Vajpayee, it is no more than a manifestation of cultural nationalism; at its most vicious, it is a fascist expression of intolerance for the ``other``. I myself uised to view it with benign neglect. However, it is hard to deny that in recent years the hard-edged hindutva is increasingly becoming more popular and poses a clear and present danger to the pluraslist traditions of India in general and hinduism in particular.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Nice article on the NYTimes on the real challenges facing india and its democracy. Unlike the tr*sh inflicted on us by Angana and her chamchas, it provides a realistic picture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/07/international/asia/07INDI.html?pagewanted=2&hp

Pardeshi Yadav, head of the Kayathpalli village council, recently found himself defending the birth of his last child: The government-provided condom he had used had failed, he said. This was not his fault.

++++

Saminasha: I am so glad you live in an area with a large number of mental health professionals. I suggest you seek counselling around the theme: Why do I feel free to pontificate on matters on which I have no knowledge or competence?

#111 dost-mittar
you touched upon other old religions with continuous traditions of ancient india. of these budhism is pretty much extinct so not much can be said from the present budhist. what is puzzling to me is the social behavior of the jains. they have very deep philosophy, yet they are hardly catholic in approach..very tribal (try getting into as jain dharmashala.. you can stay in a sikh g`dwara for free..no questions asked if you dont smoke). they seem to have gotten out of many professions such as agriculture, security (military), due to their extreme pacifism, and focused solely on bussiness. they love wealth accumulation, but dont display it (like the punjus). in bussiness, they are very exclusionary with non-jains and cartel heavily esp. in trading. and they really look down upon all meat eaters. they have pretty much have had no conflicts with other communities over times. clearly, they are very successful and generally respected in india with all the signs of future prosperity and success.

so given the fact that they are the only true successfully continuous ancient tradition on the sub-continent, what should one conclude? define a tribe, dont fight, accumulate wealth for you and your future generations, cartel so the tribe members see strong benefits of not straying from the tribe, and dont believe in god...this spells great success.

Pmishra,

Again, I am simply amazed at the switches and passes that comprise the conservative apologist mind. Here are some examples:

Socialist/communist: anti indian, anti democracy, totalitarian
Hindutva: religious liberation movement

The only thing you`ve exposed here is your prevarication...and its not very impressive.

I encourage you to set forth your understanding of Hindutva ideology. I am perfectly content in reading and accepting the scholarship of Roy and Co....and please, stay out of the tri state area....we do have the highest number of psych professionals per square mile...but then we have to learn to get along with each other as part of a democracy...its not like we can start a party that makes discrimination a religious mandate....

#114 kaurasch

First of all let me say that i agree that discrimination based on caste is a terrible thing. It originates from within ancient hindu culture and continues to be tolerated by many. It may not be worse that slavery (prevalent in Europe and America till 19th century and in Arabia till 1920s) but it is completely unacceptable today.

This is wrong and one of the greatest challenges in India.

However I disagree with your statement:

[quote]
I`ve seen Pakis and other muslims support Saddam and other muslims passionately against ``kafirs``.
[quote]

This is a terrible weakness in islamic culture. This is one reason why muslims are emerging as one of the most backward groups in the world.

#110 PunjabiZulu

Not just a fascist but a deeply ignorant person and one who seriously thinks that economic progress is possible without social amity. A person who thinks that you can spit on your neighbor and then live at peace in your home!!!

Sri Lanka is a sad counter-example. Because of Sinhala discrimination and inability to protect minorities in the past, that whole country is today beset by an extremist movement led by a unscrupulous mass murderer. So a beautiful country with a decent standard of living is stuck with a permanent civil war!

People like gujjubania seem to have no understanding of that. Do you want such a movement in India??? Do you have no understanding that Nehru`s inclusive social legacy has tamed 1000s of extremist leaders??? Do you not realize that in the North-East, Kashmir, Ladakh it is the broader inclusive indian political culture that has kept the union together.

Shekhar Gupta wrote a wonderful essay on the Naga movement not long ago. He wrote that in the midst of the terrible war that was going on there in the 60`s, some indian army officers (christians and others) came to worship at a Naga christian chapel. The Naga`s were stunned. They realized they were dealing with an inclusive culture in which difference was accepted and was multi-ethnic. So inspite of what their foreign advisors thought, they gradually changed their positions.

Similarly, you should be aware that a prominent Naga separatist leaders grandson led the charge up the Kargil mountains as an Indian army officer. Here is a report:

[quote]
Eight North-Easterners have so far lost their lives in the battle of Kargil. The death toll may go further up as both the battalions of Naga Regiment are now engaged in a fierce battle with the Pakistani intruders in Batalik and Drass sub-sector.

According to a latest report, at least 10 jawans of the Naga regiment have made supreme sacrifice while capturing the North Bump. Details of this battle are still awaited.

The North-Easterners, who have been killed in the ongoing battle so far are: Gunner Uddhab Das and Capt. Jintu Gogoi of Assam, Capt. Clifford Nongrum of Meghalaya, Lt. N. Kengurusie, Gangchung Konyak, Raikha Yimchunger of Nagaland and Kaleshwor Kom and Nicholas Moyon from Manipur.
[end-quote]

So try to grow up, gujjubania. There are indians of all backgrounds who have contributed much more than you ever will to our nation.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#122 saminasha

I am sorry your ignorance was exposed by me in public. Writing a few sentences in confident english does not entitle you to pass judgement on this or that society or culture.

It would be quite similar to my advising you to seek mental health counselling or prescribe some psychiatric medication for you. Does that strike you as reasonable??

So, tell me, oh great hindutva expert: when was the VHP founded, where and for what declared reasons???

PMishra,

My ``inane prattle``? Or is it that the harrumping hanumans at Chowk expect every progressive post essays that are considered reasonable in most spheres of academia and somehow branded ``commie`` ad nauseum over here? Shukria Sahib, but I am not interested in playing your games.

If you are so interested in forwarding your Hindutva supporting agenda, do it and be done with it. You certainly dont need to set up this elaborate ruse to justify what is obvious to most honest people: India`s democracy has many problems that need to be addressed.

AnOrdinaryHindu:
``The first and the only place to start from is from within us, and ask what our fatal weaknesses have been. Caste system has definitely been one. We must do everything to eradicate this curse. We need to do that not only because it weakens our societies, but because it is inhuman to our own brothers and sisters. That is why I do not feel offended when you remind us of the truth: the problem of caste has not gone away. ``

Caste system is certainly a reason for many hindus leaving its fold. No doubt about it. But is this the only reason? I dont think so! Look at the history. Dont forget that Buddhism, which does not have a caste system, too, could not withstand the onslaught of people with sharper swords and a will to impose their faith on others (Nobody in those pre-p.c days bothered to dig out the odd tolerant verse in the holy book like ``there is no compulsion in religion!``). The conquests from the North West, starting with Alexander`s, started when Buddhism and Jainism took hold over India. Both these religions abhored violence. Moreover, both Buddha and Mahavir came from the Kshatriya class and many of their followers were also Kshatriyas; this led to the weakening of the defensive capability of the society since Kshatriyas were the warriors and responsible for defending the society from invaders. Even when the influence of Buddha waned, hinduism absorbed its non-violent philosophy to a large extent. It is quite possible that avoidance of meat eating is traceable to this influence, earlier hindu texts provide testimony to the fact that hindus, even brahmins, ate meat.
And this was true not only of India. Take the example of Tibetans. They were fierce fighters and at one time ruled over all of China and beyond. And then they accepted Buddhism and look what happened to them. Lucky for them that they did not have to face Islam. Buddhism transformed itself when it reached Changez Khan`s Mongolia and lost its non-violent edge (Changez Khan was a buddhist, believe it or not!). This transformed Buddhism reached China and from there to Korea and Japan and it is in this form that it has survived.

rsridhar to gujjubania:

~~You need to realise one thing guy. Those 120 million muslims are in India to stay. Do you want them to stay like brothers or do you want them to be your bitter enemies. The choice is with you and your il~~

Sir, he wants them on their knees, if not on their knees, then dead.

He then quotes economic performance indicators like a strutting thug wielding a rusty switchblade. He has no idea of the tolerant, peaceful, pluralist, cosmopolitan society founded on rational principles of education and equality of opportunity that lay the groundwork for wealth creation and prosperity.

He is an out and out fascist.

Gujjubania

~~So contrary to what our learned experts commented about how Gujarat was doomed because of the riots , Gujarat is doing as well as any state in India.~~

How well are the tens of thousands of Muslims in `refugee` camps doing? (imagine that! being a refugee in YOUR OWN LAND)

kaurasch & pmishra2

I think it was caused by a combination of BOTH of the things you describe. The INTERNAL and EXTERNAL.

This is what Hindus have to address.