Angana Chatterji November 13, 2003
#107 Posted by sadna on November 16, 2003 8:39:18 am
AnOrdinaryHindu #102
``I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India. ``
I agree. In fact, it should be true to a greater extent in India where inter-community links are more organic and even ancient.
But in India because the state and its organs, including police were/are involved, and also involved are national-level organisations including political parties, IMO, the issue is much bigger than can be safely left to intercommunity outreach among ordinary citizens alone.
``I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India. ``
I agree. In fact, it should be true to a greater extent in India where inter-community links are more organic and even ancient.
But in India because the state and its organs, including police were/are involved, and also involved are national-level organisations including political parties, IMO, the issue is much bigger than can be safely left to intercommunity outreach among ordinary citizens alone.
#106 Posted by macgupta on November 16, 2003 8:39:18 am
Quoting from Dr. Yvette Rosser, about her visit to India`s northeast:
``I found women volunteers who run an after-school tutoring program in a tribal area three hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland. Their situation needs some explaining. For over a century Christian groups have funneled millions of dollars into that neighborhood. Whenever and wherever twenty or thirty families or a small village converts to Christianity they build a huge church. On our three-hour drive from Dimapur we passed numerous churches that were gargantuan white structures, especially when contrasted to the low, thatched homes of the local residents.
The ladies who ran the after-school program told me that eight years earlier, when their children were small, they got together and formed an after-school program ``like the one that was offered at the church``. The reason they formed this program was because they did not like it that at the church their children were told repeatedly that their traditions were superstitious and that their deities were devils. So they got together and started their own after-school program.......
In the village I visited a few hours from Dimapur, there is a large government school that goes through class X. When school is over the children either go home or go to tutoring. The ladies I visited in Nagaland provided a place in their back yard, where their children could go for tutoring and snacks and also some physical education and learning songs and weaving. The mothers of these non-Christian children, created a space where they do not have to hear repeatedly that their religion is evil and they should convert to Christianity. There is a Shiva temple in the area where they go to worship, which they told me has been repeatedly vandalized.
This small neighborhood program had been going on for several years before the Vivekananda Kendra began helping them pay for snacks and built a small shelter. They have also provided funds to help pay for trips to the doctor in Dimapur if a child is ill. Now the daughters of these two founding women are in class nine and ten and they help tutor the little children after school. They want to go to college in Dimapur to become teachers.
....
While investigating the grassroots recipients of IDRF dollars, I also visited a Dimasi village a few hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland. It is one of the few non-Christian villages in that neighborhood. Last year they received some funds from the Vivekananda Kendra to help transliterate their ancestral prayers. Vivekananda Kendras are one of the IDRF recipients. I asked the Dimasis if the Vivekananda Kendra asked them to cry out ``Bolo Ram`` and urged them to give up their indigenous tradition and embrace Hinduism thereby leading to what Sabrang called the ``disintegration`` of Adivasi culture. The Dimasi gentleman laughed and said that the Kendra had helped them to preserve their indigenous prayers, and they believed in Shiva Rai. Last year they tape recorded the prayers of the old men of the Dimasi tribes and transcribed them, using Roman script, and made the prayer books available to all of the Dimasi villages.
His elderly mother said, with words that shook me, ``Over a hundred years ago the Americans came with the Kala Kitab (black book) and told us our Gods were Satans. Now we are hearing that Americans are coming back and telling us to preserve our indigenous traditions``. The men and women of the Dimasi village informed me that in the last few years since they have received help from the Vivekananda Kendra, they have felt a feeling of renewed pride in their own culture that was difficult to maintain when missionaries are always knocking on their door. Importantly, the Dimasis received some funds to preserve an ancient Dimasi monument in a park in Dimapur, a giant stone-carved chess set associated with Bhima`s wife from the Mahabharata, who was from that tribe.
Regardless of the claims of the Sabrang initiative, the Dimasis are not being coerced or disintegrated by the help they are receiving from the Vivekananda Kendra, which may include some funds from the IDRF. The Dimasi are lively yet serious people. The village head told me that they were pushed into getting more organized when in 1999 there were dozens of huge prayer meetings in all the adjacent villages, revival meetings warning people that Jesus was returning to earth on the new year. Missionaries from different churches would go through the villages on bicycles with bull-horns and tell people to come to the prayer meeting and be saved… to leave their old evil ways behind and be saved when the rapture comes on Dec. 31, 1999.
The headmaster`s daughter asked her father why they couldn`t have a prayer meeting, which got him to thinking and he contacted other Dimasi leaders. The next year they had a prayer meeting with several of the Dimasi tribes, which included traditional dancing and singing. They did this for two years and then they got some help in printing up the Dimasi prayer booklets. It doesn`t take a media savvy genius to understand why FIACONA (Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations of North America) would want to curtail such funds that support and strengthen indigenous traditions. They become less easy to convert.
I had an eye-opening visit to Nagaland and Assam and hope to go back one day. I met some amazing people. I wish those scholars and others who signed this anti-IDRF petition would go there and see what kind of projects are being funded in the North East of India. Very inspiring… not communal, unless you think helping people retain their indigenous traditions in the face of all kinds of globalizing pressure is dangerous. I think it is dangerous if we lose these tribal traditions and they all become Jehovah`s Witnesses or Southern Baptists. It is a great boon to the religious diversity of the earth that the Vivekananda Kendra is helping the Dimasi to preserve their traditional prayers, lest they be lost for all generations.
``I found women volunteers who run an after-school tutoring program in a tribal area three hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland. Their situation needs some explaining. For over a century Christian groups have funneled millions of dollars into that neighborhood. Whenever and wherever twenty or thirty families or a small village converts to Christianity they build a huge church. On our three-hour drive from Dimapur we passed numerous churches that were gargantuan white structures, especially when contrasted to the low, thatched homes of the local residents.
The ladies who ran the after-school program told me that eight years earlier, when their children were small, they got together and formed an after-school program ``like the one that was offered at the church``. The reason they formed this program was because they did not like it that at the church their children were told repeatedly that their traditions were superstitious and that their deities were devils. So they got together and started their own after-school program.......
In the village I visited a few hours from Dimapur, there is a large government school that goes through class X. When school is over the children either go home or go to tutoring. The ladies I visited in Nagaland provided a place in their back yard, where their children could go for tutoring and snacks and also some physical education and learning songs and weaving. The mothers of these non-Christian children, created a space where they do not have to hear repeatedly that their religion is evil and they should convert to Christianity. There is a Shiva temple in the area where they go to worship, which they told me has been repeatedly vandalized.
This small neighborhood program had been going on for several years before the Vivekananda Kendra began helping them pay for snacks and built a small shelter. They have also provided funds to help pay for trips to the doctor in Dimapur if a child is ill. Now the daughters of these two founding women are in class nine and ten and they help tutor the little children after school. They want to go to college in Dimapur to become teachers.
....
While investigating the grassroots recipients of IDRF dollars, I also visited a Dimasi village a few hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland. It is one of the few non-Christian villages in that neighborhood. Last year they received some funds from the Vivekananda Kendra to help transliterate their ancestral prayers. Vivekananda Kendras are one of the IDRF recipients. I asked the Dimasis if the Vivekananda Kendra asked them to cry out ``Bolo Ram`` and urged them to give up their indigenous tradition and embrace Hinduism thereby leading to what Sabrang called the ``disintegration`` of Adivasi culture. The Dimasi gentleman laughed and said that the Kendra had helped them to preserve their indigenous prayers, and they believed in Shiva Rai. Last year they tape recorded the prayers of the old men of the Dimasi tribes and transcribed them, using Roman script, and made the prayer books available to all of the Dimasi villages.
His elderly mother said, with words that shook me, ``Over a hundred years ago the Americans came with the Kala Kitab (black book) and told us our Gods were Satans. Now we are hearing that Americans are coming back and telling us to preserve our indigenous traditions``. The men and women of the Dimasi village informed me that in the last few years since they have received help from the Vivekananda Kendra, they have felt a feeling of renewed pride in their own culture that was difficult to maintain when missionaries are always knocking on their door. Importantly, the Dimasis received some funds to preserve an ancient Dimasi monument in a park in Dimapur, a giant stone-carved chess set associated with Bhima`s wife from the Mahabharata, who was from that tribe.
Regardless of the claims of the Sabrang initiative, the Dimasis are not being coerced or disintegrated by the help they are receiving from the Vivekananda Kendra, which may include some funds from the IDRF. The Dimasi are lively yet serious people. The village head told me that they were pushed into getting more organized when in 1999 there were dozens of huge prayer meetings in all the adjacent villages, revival meetings warning people that Jesus was returning to earth on the new year. Missionaries from different churches would go through the villages on bicycles with bull-horns and tell people to come to the prayer meeting and be saved… to leave their old evil ways behind and be saved when the rapture comes on Dec. 31, 1999.
The headmaster`s daughter asked her father why they couldn`t have a prayer meeting, which got him to thinking and he contacted other Dimasi leaders. The next year they had a prayer meeting with several of the Dimasi tribes, which included traditional dancing and singing. They did this for two years and then they got some help in printing up the Dimasi prayer booklets. It doesn`t take a media savvy genius to understand why FIACONA (Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations of North America) would want to curtail such funds that support and strengthen indigenous traditions. They become less easy to convert.
I had an eye-opening visit to Nagaland and Assam and hope to go back one day. I met some amazing people. I wish those scholars and others who signed this anti-IDRF petition would go there and see what kind of projects are being funded in the North East of India. Very inspiring… not communal, unless you think helping people retain their indigenous traditions in the face of all kinds of globalizing pressure is dangerous. I think it is dangerous if we lose these tribal traditions and they all become Jehovah`s Witnesses or Southern Baptists. It is a great boon to the religious diversity of the earth that the Vivekananda Kendra is helping the Dimasi to preserve their traditional prayers, lest they be lost for all generations.
#105 Posted by macgupta on November 16, 2003 8:39:18 am
Dr. Rosser, contd. :
``In Dimapur I also met a journalist who is a Naga, with a Christian name. Though he is the grandson of a Naga priest, his father converted to Southern Baptist religion. Then, as a young man, feeling dissatisfied with the Southern Baptist faith, he converted to Roman Catholicism. As a mature adult he still felt rootless, like he had no culture. He looked around and in his own words he ``saw so many second and third generation Christianized Naga youths disenfranchised from their ancient traditions and turning to the narco-terrorist culture for lack of roots and identity.`` So he went back to the villages and tried to learn about the ancestral ways. For several years he has been doing research on traditional Naga religion. He is a small town journalist and his trips into interior Nagaland are self-financed, no connection with the IDRF.
He is involved in a project to replant Banyan trees in Naga villages. It was an ancient tradition that each Naga village had a Banyan tree in the center with rocks at its base. When a new village was established, a branch of a tree would be planted. However, through the last century, when a village was Christianized, the missionaries told them to cut down the Banyan trees and throw the stones in the river. This movement by a group of Nagas, NOT FUNDED BY THE IDRF, to replant the Banyan trees in some of the villages had been threatened with violence from certain Christian groups.
In fact, it is ironic, in India, a ``secular country``, shopkeepers in Dimapur are “required” to display Christmas lights... whether they want to or not. There is a city ordinance that “suggests” that lights be displayed, but the local student union and the constables demand a bribe if businesses don`t hang Christmas lights. Dimapur is predominately Christian, but it was quite strange to see gigantic Santa Clauses at each intersection with huge Orwellian stomachs and tiny heads. At night large electrified red stars dangled eerily from tall bamboo poles above every other home.
While inquiring about recipients of IDRF funds, I met a young woman from a village in Arunachal Pradesh studying pre-law at a college in Guwahati. She lives at the Vivekananda Kendra. She is a follower of the Donyipolo religion, and is determined to preserve her indigenous faith. She was not harming the beliefs of others because she was proud of her ancestral religion… she was preserving diversity. She was a petite, sweet, and sincere human.
In Dimapur I also visited a Naga hostel run by followers of Rani Gaidinliu who were working to preserve the Heraka traditions. The students there were kind, considerate and full of hope for today and promise for the future. No one I met, not one program I investigated, not one person who was involved in preserving indigenous traditions, helping school children, or supporting young scholars, no one was preaching hate.
I asked many of the people I met if the Vivekanada Kendra`s funds had strings attached. Were they expected to leave their old ways behind and become ``part of the Hindu fold``? I was told each time that there is no distinction. Their faiths have ancient connections with the Indian epics and countless cultural overlaps. No one complained that their culture was being diluted by Saffron. They all were grateful that someone cared about the preservation of their ancestral traditions. Sabrang`s research was way off the mark. In the same EPW article quoted above, which is not at all complementary to the Sangh Parivar, the author states that, ``It is important to note that, in contrast to Christians, followers of these Hindu sects [Swadhayay, Swaminarayan, etc.] continue to worship their traditional gods and goddess and participate in community festivals and celebrations.``
The point is that if Professor Angana Chatterji was *really* interested in the tribals preserving their identity she would be talking about the tentacles of Southern Baptists spreading throughout India.
``In Dimapur I also met a journalist who is a Naga, with a Christian name. Though he is the grandson of a Naga priest, his father converted to Southern Baptist religion. Then, as a young man, feeling dissatisfied with the Southern Baptist faith, he converted to Roman Catholicism. As a mature adult he still felt rootless, like he had no culture. He looked around and in his own words he ``saw so many second and third generation Christianized Naga youths disenfranchised from their ancient traditions and turning to the narco-terrorist culture for lack of roots and identity.`` So he went back to the villages and tried to learn about the ancestral ways. For several years he has been doing research on traditional Naga religion. He is a small town journalist and his trips into interior Nagaland are self-financed, no connection with the IDRF.
He is involved in a project to replant Banyan trees in Naga villages. It was an ancient tradition that each Naga village had a Banyan tree in the center with rocks at its base. When a new village was established, a branch of a tree would be planted. However, through the last century, when a village was Christianized, the missionaries told them to cut down the Banyan trees and throw the stones in the river. This movement by a group of Nagas, NOT FUNDED BY THE IDRF, to replant the Banyan trees in some of the villages had been threatened with violence from certain Christian groups.
In fact, it is ironic, in India, a ``secular country``, shopkeepers in Dimapur are “required” to display Christmas lights... whether they want to or not. There is a city ordinance that “suggests” that lights be displayed, but the local student union and the constables demand a bribe if businesses don`t hang Christmas lights. Dimapur is predominately Christian, but it was quite strange to see gigantic Santa Clauses at each intersection with huge Orwellian stomachs and tiny heads. At night large electrified red stars dangled eerily from tall bamboo poles above every other home.
While inquiring about recipients of IDRF funds, I met a young woman from a village in Arunachal Pradesh studying pre-law at a college in Guwahati. She lives at the Vivekananda Kendra. She is a follower of the Donyipolo religion, and is determined to preserve her indigenous faith. She was not harming the beliefs of others because she was proud of her ancestral religion… she was preserving diversity. She was a petite, sweet, and sincere human.
In Dimapur I also visited a Naga hostel run by followers of Rani Gaidinliu who were working to preserve the Heraka traditions. The students there were kind, considerate and full of hope for today and promise for the future. No one I met, not one program I investigated, not one person who was involved in preserving indigenous traditions, helping school children, or supporting young scholars, no one was preaching hate.
I asked many of the people I met if the Vivekanada Kendra`s funds had strings attached. Were they expected to leave their old ways behind and become ``part of the Hindu fold``? I was told each time that there is no distinction. Their faiths have ancient connections with the Indian epics and countless cultural overlaps. No one complained that their culture was being diluted by Saffron. They all were grateful that someone cared about the preservation of their ancestral traditions. Sabrang`s research was way off the mark. In the same EPW article quoted above, which is not at all complementary to the Sangh Parivar, the author states that, ``It is important to note that, in contrast to Christians, followers of these Hindu sects [Swadhayay, Swaminarayan, etc.] continue to worship their traditional gods and goddess and participate in community festivals and celebrations.``
The point is that if Professor Angana Chatterji was *really* interested in the tribals preserving their identity she would be talking about the tentacles of Southern Baptists spreading throughout India.
#104 Posted by dost_mittar on November 16, 2003 8:11:26 am
Romair#83:
Your knowledge of the Indian political situation is somewhat superficial, and you recognise that. Maybe, you should start reading the Ineteracts of those you dont now to get multiple perspectives on the Indian reality.
``However, India was able to do it with its Muslims, post-partition. Even if they were at the bottom of the totem pole, they still felt enfranchised enough that they did not want to separate (other than Kashmir). I look at this as a success for India, even if the time bomb had started ticking, under Congress.``
Muslims were not, nor or they now at the bottom of the totem pole. That place still belongs to the dalits. There are many prosperous muslim communities like the khojas, ismailis, memons and several industries, such as carpet making, dominated by the muslims. And they did ask for a separate country and got it, too!. As you are aware, their overwhelming majority wanted Pakistan. In a recent article in Dawn that you may have also read, it was stated that Muslims of UP, Bihar and CP, etc. voted for the Muslim League even though they knew that the creation of Pakistan will permanently taint them and cause hardships and sufferings for them in India. To the credit of the Congress, they were able to prevent this backlash from happening. But the policies they used to do so had some long-term, unintended though not unforeseeable, effects.
This is quite clear from the almost uniformly hostile reaction to Ms Chattterjee`s article, which is typical of the Congress stance taken during the Nehruvian period. If she had said that schools in a secular state should not be run by religious or religion-oriented organisations, including muslim, christian, sikh and other organisations, I doubt that she would have engendered the kind of hostile reaction that she has. This type of reaction remained suppressed as long as the charismatic Nehru was alive but could not be contained by lesser leaders.
``he dangerous part for India is that the opposition did not appear in the form of a moderate pro-Hinduism or an anti-secularism type of group. It went to the extreme. It appeared in the form of an extremely nationalistically and violent Hinduvta group. It did not just sideline the religious minorities in the country (like the MMA and other political parties in Pakistan do). It actually went after them. ``
I do not agree with this analysis and there is no point in repeating what has been said beofore. There is more to the BJP than their website (which I have only glanced at). In fact, I would have said that their record on the communal front compared favourably to that of the Congress, if Gujarat had not intervened. The Ayodhya mess was primarily the creation of Nehru`s trusted Chief Minister of UP, Govind Vallabh Pant, who allowed the installation of the Ram idol inside the Babri Masjid back in 1948 or thereabout, and Rajiv Gandhi who laid the shilanyas (foundation) ceremony for the Ram temple there. I am not denying that the RSS agenda is to ``Indianise`` Islam (whatever that means!). But the BJP`s constitution is quite secular and ``it actually goes after them`` to get their votes and support.
Your knowledge of the Indian political situation is somewhat superficial, and you recognise that. Maybe, you should start reading the Ineteracts of those you dont now to get multiple perspectives on the Indian reality.
``However, India was able to do it with its Muslims, post-partition. Even if they were at the bottom of the totem pole, they still felt enfranchised enough that they did not want to separate (other than Kashmir). I look at this as a success for India, even if the time bomb had started ticking, under Congress.``
Muslims were not, nor or they now at the bottom of the totem pole. That place still belongs to the dalits. There are many prosperous muslim communities like the khojas, ismailis, memons and several industries, such as carpet making, dominated by the muslims. And they did ask for a separate country and got it, too!. As you are aware, their overwhelming majority wanted Pakistan. In a recent article in Dawn that you may have also read, it was stated that Muslims of UP, Bihar and CP, etc. voted for the Muslim League even though they knew that the creation of Pakistan will permanently taint them and cause hardships and sufferings for them in India. To the credit of the Congress, they were able to prevent this backlash from happening. But the policies they used to do so had some long-term, unintended though not unforeseeable, effects.
This is quite clear from the almost uniformly hostile reaction to Ms Chattterjee`s article, which is typical of the Congress stance taken during the Nehruvian period. If she had said that schools in a secular state should not be run by religious or religion-oriented organisations, including muslim, christian, sikh and other organisations, I doubt that she would have engendered the kind of hostile reaction that she has. This type of reaction remained suppressed as long as the charismatic Nehru was alive but could not be contained by lesser leaders.
``he dangerous part for India is that the opposition did not appear in the form of a moderate pro-Hinduism or an anti-secularism type of group. It went to the extreme. It appeared in the form of an extremely nationalistically and violent Hinduvta group. It did not just sideline the religious minorities in the country (like the MMA and other political parties in Pakistan do). It actually went after them. ``
I do not agree with this analysis and there is no point in repeating what has been said beofore. There is more to the BJP than their website (which I have only glanced at). In fact, I would have said that their record on the communal front compared favourably to that of the Congress, if Gujarat had not intervened. The Ayodhya mess was primarily the creation of Nehru`s trusted Chief Minister of UP, Govind Vallabh Pant, who allowed the installation of the Ram idol inside the Babri Masjid back in 1948 or thereabout, and Rajiv Gandhi who laid the shilanyas (foundation) ceremony for the Ram temple there. I am not denying that the RSS agenda is to ``Indianise`` Islam (whatever that means!). But the BJP`s constitution is quite secular and ``it actually goes after them`` to get their votes and support.
#103 Posted by dost_mittar on November 16, 2003 7:35:49 am
saminasha#86:
``Do you deny that the following paragraph has any validity?
``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``
If so, why? ``
I am not always correct in deciphering dialectical prose. But if I understand it correctly, the author seems to be sayinng that in the disrupting world forces confronting the tribal society (she refers to other groups as well but in the context of Orissa, it applies to mostly tribals) the RSS-run schools add another varibale. There can be no disagreemnet about that. But the question is, would they have been left alone to evolve in a natural way if the RSS schools were not there? I am not so sure. The RSS movement is basically reactionary - a reaction to the christian missionaries whose model of combining educational-welfare activities with religious indoctrination the RSS seems to be imitating. And from what I have read, the RSS indoctrination does not require them to give up their tribal gods and native, animisitic customs and practices, unlike the Abrahimic indoctrination which is less compatible with local customs and cultures.
Personally, I would like the tribals to be provided welfare and secular education so that they can develop naturally without destroying the fabric of their native society. But since the state and the secular NGOs have been negligent in doing this job, one cannot prevent others from doing the same, even though they may have other axes to grind.
``Do you deny that the following paragraph has any validity?
``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``
If so, why? ``
I am not always correct in deciphering dialectical prose. But if I understand it correctly, the author seems to be sayinng that in the disrupting world forces confronting the tribal society (she refers to other groups as well but in the context of Orissa, it applies to mostly tribals) the RSS-run schools add another varibale. There can be no disagreemnet about that. But the question is, would they have been left alone to evolve in a natural way if the RSS schools were not there? I am not so sure. The RSS movement is basically reactionary - a reaction to the christian missionaries whose model of combining educational-welfare activities with religious indoctrination the RSS seems to be imitating. And from what I have read, the RSS indoctrination does not require them to give up their tribal gods and native, animisitic customs and practices, unlike the Abrahimic indoctrination which is less compatible with local customs and cultures.
Personally, I would like the tribals to be provided welfare and secular education so that they can develop naturally without destroying the fabric of their native society. But since the state and the secular NGOs have been negligent in doing this job, one cannot prevent others from doing the same, even though they may have other axes to grind.
#102 Posted by AnOrdinaryHindu on November 15, 2003 10:18:13 pm
sadna
Hordes intent on maximum destruction are deaf to reason. So it is more important that everyone pitches in to create a positive environment, within her or his community towards outsiders and outside towards themselves.
The example I gave should have clarified the issue. Ever since 9/11, regular brochures have begun to appear across the campuses in the US announcing similiarity of Islam with other religions. That`s a great thing. It removes apprehensions in the mind of other people who otherwise may develop doubts in their minds listening to extremists.
A similar emphasis on commonalities and peaceful intentions rather than differences will help great in South Asia too. I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India.
Hordes intent on maximum destruction are deaf to reason. So it is more important that everyone pitches in to create a positive environment, within her or his community towards outsiders and outside towards themselves.
The example I gave should have clarified the issue. Ever since 9/11, regular brochures have begun to appear across the campuses in the US announcing similiarity of Islam with other religions. That`s a great thing. It removes apprehensions in the mind of other people who otherwise may develop doubts in their minds listening to extremists.
A similar emphasis on commonalities and peaceful intentions rather than differences will help great in South Asia too. I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India.
#101 Posted by soysauce on November 15, 2003 10:18:12 pm
Chowk has this weird policy of filching articles that supposedly would generate debate.
It would be best to leave these articles well enough alone when the author does not deign to participate in the debate. Professor Hoodbhoy, Tariq Ali and now Ms. Chatterji.. Just boycott them I say..
It would be best to leave these articles well enough alone when the author does not deign to participate in the debate. Professor Hoodbhoy, Tariq Ali and now Ms. Chatterji.. Just boycott them I say..
#100 Posted by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 10:18:12 pm
#77 by mohar11 on November 15, 2003 8:27am PT
I think that`s what is happening. Muslims are stepping up. This is a small sample - but my comany has a development team of 8 in India , 2 out of which are muslims.
I agree!! Infact most of the Islamists and illiterate mualavis in India act as inhibitors to muslims` aspiring to take the oppportunities and challanges now available in India.
However, this is changing and these Islamists are getting discredited with more muslim youths taking to secular professions.
I think that`s what is happening. Muslims are stepping up. This is a small sample - but my comany has a development team of 8 in India , 2 out of which are muslims.
I agree!! Infact most of the Islamists and illiterate mualavis in India act as inhibitors to muslims` aspiring to take the oppportunities and challanges now available in India.
However, this is changing and these Islamists are getting discredited with more muslim youths taking to secular professions.
#99 Posted by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 10:18:12 pm
``This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove secularism (or religion) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a secular party and a moderate reigious party, and let the people decide whom they want.``
Dangerous thesis by this guy called Romair. Nazi fascist would be happy-
This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove democracy (or fascism) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a democratic party and a moderate fascist party, and let the people decide whom they want.``
Dangerous thesis by this guy called Romair. Nazi fascist would be happy-
This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove democracy (or fascism) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a democratic party and a moderate fascist party, and let the people decide whom they want.``
#98 Posted by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 10:18:12 pm
Saminasha
#70 by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 7:47am PT
I am not satisfied with Angana`s reporting! It was low on analyses and high on rhetorics as somebody has pointed out.
Are you still on the offer of $5000 ??
#70 by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 7:47am PT
I am not satisfied with Angana`s reporting! It was low on analyses and high on rhetorics as somebody has pointed out.
Are you still on the offer of $5000 ??
#97 Posted by macgupta on November 15, 2003 5:46:10 pm
Just want to point out that in 1996-97, Orissa is said to have 65,500 primary schools, with a claimed enrollment of 4.5 million. Vidya Bharati`s 391 schools with 111K enrollment are
0.6% of the schools and 2.5% of the students (larger than average schools, it appears.)
0.6% of the schools and 2.5% of the students (larger than average schools, it appears.)
#96 Posted by sadna on November 15, 2003 5:28:18 pm
AnOrdinaryHindu #94
Dargahs are often open graves of which there is no `inside` to invite anyone. And are you telling me that Hindus should have invited Ghouri or whoever inside the Somnath and showed him there was nothing to fear and then he wouldnot have destroyed it?
Yes you are right, there is a need for communities to reach out and talk to each other to build trust, but that was equally the responsibility of Hindus whom you claim ` feared what was inside` . They not only failed in this responsibility but chose to destroy the places of worship in addition.
Please donot make the mistake of projecting the actions of hordes intent on maximum destruction as driven by reason, we get enough of that sort of cr_p from supporters of jihad across the border.
Dargahs are often open graves of which there is no `inside` to invite anyone. And are you telling me that Hindus should have invited Ghouri or whoever inside the Somnath and showed him there was nothing to fear and then he wouldnot have destroyed it?
Yes you are right, there is a need for communities to reach out and talk to each other to build trust, but that was equally the responsibility of Hindus whom you claim ` feared what was inside` . They not only failed in this responsibility but chose to destroy the places of worship in addition.
Please donot make the mistake of projecting the actions of hordes intent on maximum destruction as driven by reason, we get enough of that sort of cr_p from supporters of jihad across the border.
#95 Posted by AnOrdinaryHindu on November 15, 2003 4:54:22 pm
re: sadna # 90
That is such a strong evidence that places of worship become much safer when they have the respect of all communities.
I have been heartened by the effort Arabs have launched in the US to invite Americans to mosques, to explain to them that they worship the same God, and that they are not anti-American. Even a small amount of similar effort in India will go a long way in promoting peace. Luckily, no Arab in the US has yet openly extolled Hitler as a hero, despite the not-so-hidden anti-semitism that is so common and visible.
That is the kind of respect we need in South Asia too.
That is such a strong evidence that places of worship become much safer when they have the respect of all communities.
I have been heartened by the effort Arabs have launched in the US to invite Americans to mosques, to explain to them that they worship the same God, and that they are not anti-American. Even a small amount of similar effort in India will go a long way in promoting peace. Luckily, no Arab in the US has yet openly extolled Hitler as a hero, despite the not-so-hidden anti-semitism that is so common and visible.
That is the kind of respect we need in South Asia too.
#94 Posted by AnOrdinaryHindu on November 15, 2003 4:54:22 pm
Macgupta
A semi tongue-in-cheek observation:
One purpose of this article could be that Angana wants to inform us that she has read about the `subalterns.`
:)
A semi tongue-in-cheek observation:
One purpose of this article could be that Angana wants to inform us that she has read about the `subalterns.`
:)
#93 Posted by AnOrdinaryHindu on November 15, 2003 3:52:27 pm
re: saminashah # 87
In that case Angana is an extremely poor communicator. After all, there could be only two purposes for an article like this -
1. Address her personal inadequacies by seeking external, non Indian validation of her claims to intellect. There could also be financial objectives, but chowk doesnt pay its contributors. She might be making her living by writing such articles for her job, in which case, she has the freedom to do whatever it takes to put food on her family`s table. Many men and women do much worse.
2. Persuade those who disagree with her by engaging them in a dialogue. Unless she is a teenager, she shouldn`t expect all of us to be anxiously waiting for her words of wisdom.
Inequality -
I will be the first to acknowledge that there will be some inter-group inequality in the only possibility of peaceful co-existence between any majority and any minority. That flows from the very nature of democracies.
That is why democracies never set out to completely eliminate inequalities between groups. The objective is to make governance as close to equitable for individuals as possible, while protecting broad outlines of different cultural traditions.
In no countries do all groups have veto powers. Many directly impose a much more brutal system; in some cases, as in Malaysia, even when the majority forms just about 60% of the population, a far more elaborate system of privileges is built into the political fabric.
When lands also have core religious significance, as India does for Hindus, other communities adopt an uncompromising absolutist stand. There is no question of co-existence, peaceful or not.
Luckily we do not face that situation. A secular, equitable polity is possible. It is also desirable and has widespread support. The only non-negotiables are those based on facts, not opinions: that India has a very special significance for Hindus, along with Nepal, it is the only place in which Hindus dominate, and that Hindus have a long and not always happy history of being dominated by other groups.
We need to create a secular, progressive, and fair system given these realities. These realities mean that India will never be to Hindus only as much as US is to Christians. But we don`t need go the way of the Arabs either. Nor do we need to turn India into a Rome.
All we need in India is for people to be willing to work together, to respect each other, and eschew anything that fails that important test.
In that case Angana is an extremely poor communicator. After all, there could be only two purposes for an article like this -
1. Address her personal inadequacies by seeking external, non Indian validation of her claims to intellect. There could also be financial objectives, but chowk doesnt pay its contributors. She might be making her living by writing such articles for her job, in which case, she has the freedom to do whatever it takes to put food on her family`s table. Many men and women do much worse.
2. Persuade those who disagree with her by engaging them in a dialogue. Unless she is a teenager, she shouldn`t expect all of us to be anxiously waiting for her words of wisdom.
Inequality -
I will be the first to acknowledge that there will be some inter-group inequality in the only possibility of peaceful co-existence between any majority and any minority. That flows from the very nature of democracies.
That is why democracies never set out to completely eliminate inequalities between groups. The objective is to make governance as close to equitable for individuals as possible, while protecting broad outlines of different cultural traditions.
In no countries do all groups have veto powers. Many directly impose a much more brutal system; in some cases, as in Malaysia, even when the majority forms just about 60% of the population, a far more elaborate system of privileges is built into the political fabric.
When lands also have core religious significance, as India does for Hindus, other communities adopt an uncompromising absolutist stand. There is no question of co-existence, peaceful or not.
Luckily we do not face that situation. A secular, equitable polity is possible. It is also desirable and has widespread support. The only non-negotiables are those based on facts, not opinions: that India has a very special significance for Hindus, along with Nepal, it is the only place in which Hindus dominate, and that Hindus have a long and not always happy history of being dominated by other groups.
We need to create a secular, progressive, and fair system given these realities. These realities mean that India will never be to Hindus only as much as US is to Christians. But we don`t need go the way of the Arabs either. Nor do we need to turn India into a Rome.
All we need in India is for people to be willing to work together, to respect each other, and eschew anything that fails that important test.
#92 Posted by macgupta on November 15, 2003 3:15:57 pm
Saminashah inquires about the validity of the following paragraph:
``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``
It all sounds very good, but what does it mean?
The following words are used : ``minorities``, ``poor``, ``refugees``, ``disenfranchised`` ``subaltern``.
What refugees are there in Orissa? They are primarily from Bangladesh. What aspects of Bangladeshi policy that create these refugees has Angana Chatterji ever addressed, let alone criticized? Incidentally, it is these refugees that are accused by other people of the state as having annexed territory and resources. humanscapeindia.net reports a
`` large-scale influx of Bengali refugees, who have subsequently settled in coastal areas of the state, has raised many eyebrows. Besides engaging in marine and inland fishing and allied trades, they have illegally occupied coastal forestland and are responsible for the destruction of the coastal eco-system, complain some local residents of Jagatasinghpur district. The interception of illegal radio stations and the arrest of a few suspects in the Rajnagar block of Kendrapara district in May 2002 have brought to light the activities of infiltrators from Bangladesh and security breaches made in the vicinity of sensitive defence installations. It is suspected that ISI and other foreign intelligence networks have installed some transmission centres near Wheeler Island in the Bay of Bengal to get information regarding Chandipur missile testing range.``
Madhushree Mukherjee reported in the Scientific American that the Ridley`s turtle, which nests on Orissa shores, and is sacred to the local population, is being decimated by the Banglas.
We wait with bated breath to see in the battle between the natives, the refugees, the subaltern and the environment - on which side will Angana Chatterji dispose of herself.
Talking about ``disenfranchised`` on a Pakistani discussion board is an irony in itself. In the civic body polls in Sept 2003 in Orissa, the turn out was 70 percent. It seems more enfranchised to me than the place which Angana Chatterji calls home (California).
The purpose of this is to expose the fallacy that Prof. Chatterji is trying to exploit - evocation of poor, refugees, etc., does not confer correctness, or a moral advantage or anything.
OK, anyway, let us proceed. Some set of problems have ``produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship``.
Now, the main complaint against the RSS in the subsequent part of the article is that they are apparently trying to produce a uniform identity for all citizens of the state. So why is diverse identity politics a problem? It is a perfect counterfoil to RSS`s efforts. But for unknown reasons the author objects.
Let us proceed to make sense of the last sentence: ``At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``
Again, very evocative. The first unthinking response is - how horrible! The key emotive buttons - globalisation, nationalism, unravelling democracy - are hit upon. The supposed champions of Hindutva have also been rather scrupulous adherents to democratic practice - including stepping down without demur when they lose an election, a no-confidence motion or whatever. The fact is that the past years of economic reforms and subsequent growth have greatly reduced Angana Chatterji`s self-claimed constituency of the poor. As per this Dawn article, http://www.dawn.com/2003/10/20/op.htm#2, in the last two decades, poverty in India has declined from 45% to 26%. Much more effective than an army of Mother Teresas in reducing human suffering. Chatterji should instead be screaming that we are not getting economic liberation fast enough. But that is assuming that she is a humanitarian, a dubious assumption at best.
The complaints that the author has is that the RSS runs schools that teach the State curriculum, provide books in Oriya, offer income generation and computer skills, gets students to work for disaster relief and development, leadership skills. Very troubling, all of these. What is the alternative education that Professor Chatterji proposes?
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