Learning in Saffron: RSS Schools Orissa

#120 by ahmedmadani on November 17, 2003 10:48pm PT

I would like my Islamic scholar fellows to comment on the issue of whether Music is Haram or not?? The article is posted in the unplugged section as well.
The Religion of Islaam has made clear the prohibition of Music, as is clear from the Qur`aan, ahaadeeth of the Messenger and the understanding of the Companions , when all three are taken together.


From the Qur`aan:

Allaah says, what means: ``Do you marvel at this statement, and laugh and do not weep, while you amuse yourselves [proudly] in vanities ? Rather, prostrate before Allaah and worship Him [alone].`` [Surah An-Najm (The Star) Verse 59 to 62 ]

According to Ibn Abbaas , the word `saamidoon` in this verse refers to the mushrikeen`s habit of singing and playing music noisily whenever they heard the Qur`aan being recited, in order to drown out the reciters voice so that others wouldn`t hear it.

Also, Allaah says (regarding Satan) what means: ```And excite any of them whom you can with your voice. Assault them with your cavalry and infantry, be a partner with them in their wealth and children, and make them promises.` But Satan promises them nothing except deceit.`` [Surah Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) Verse 64]

Some of the taabi`een such as ad-Dahhaak and Mujaahid interpreted Satan`s exciting mankind with his voice to mean through the use of music, song and amusement. Ad-Dahhaak said it was the sound of wind instruments. However according to Ibn Abbaas , the voice mentioned in the verse refers to every form of invitation which calls to the disobedience of Allaah the Exalted, which seems to be the most correct interpretation.

Finally, Allaah says what means: ``And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allaah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allaah, the Verses of the Qur`aan) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).`` [Surah Luqman (Prophet Luqman) Verse 6]

Ibn Masood said about this verse ``I swear by the One other than Whom there is no God that it refers to singing [ghinaa].``, and he repeated this three times. Ibn Abbaas said it referred to `singing and the like` while Jaabir is reported to view its meaning to signify singing and listening to songs. Many taabi`oon such as Mujaahid, Ikrimah, Mak-hool and Umar ibn Shu`ayb viewed it as a censure of music and song.

From the ahaadeeth of the Messenger :
Contrary to the commonly held belief, there are a number of authentic narrations from the Prophetic Sunnah which clearly point to the indisputable fact that music, instruments, singing to accompaniment, etc. are objects prohibited by the Islaamic Sharia. The exceptions to this general rule are specific , limited types of innocent singing or chanting without any instrumental accompaniment or to the accompaniment of a simple hand drum (daff) on certain occasions designated by the sunnah.

Unfortunately, many Muslims entertain the misconception that all the ahaadeeth relating to music, singing and musical instruments are either weak (da`eef) or forged (mawdoo`) - a position that is untenable.

The Narration of al-Bukhaaree:
The Prophet said : ``There will be [at some future time] people from my Ummah who will seek to make lawful fornication, the wearing of silk, wine drinking and the use of musical instruments [ma`aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of the mountain and when their shepherd comes in the evening to ask them for his needs, they will say : `Return to us tomorrow`. Then Allaah will destroy them during the night by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.`` al-Jowhari, the author of the ancient dictionary `as-Sihaah`, asserts that ma`aazif signifies musical instruments, al-`aazif indicates one who sings, and the `azf of the wind is its voice..

Az-Zabeedi also says that ma`aazif are instruments of leisure which are drummed upon or played, like the loot (`ood) , the drum (tanboor), the small hand drum (daff) or other such musical objects.

Ibn Hajar in Fathul-Baaree relates that `azf is also used to describe singing (ghinaa).

This authentic hadeeth clearly establishes the prohibition of music and singing and this in itself is sufficient for the one who really wishes to see the Truth of the affair. However there are other authentic narrations on the subject that we quote below.

The Narration of Ibn Maajah :
The Messenger of Allaah said : ``A people of my Ummah will drink wine, calling it by other than its real name. Merriment will be made for them through the playing of musical instruments and the singing of female singers. Allaah will cleave the earth under them and turn others into apes and swine.``
This hadeeth has also been narrated by al-Bayhaaqi and ibn Asaakir, and has been authenticated by the renowned scholar of hadeeth Ibn al-Qayyim.

Narrations of Ahmed bin Hanbal :
The Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily Allaah prohibited wine, gambling and al-koobah; and every intoxicant is prohibited.`` Sufyan said : `` I asked the narrator, Ali bin Badheemah, ` What is al-Koobah?` He answered, `It is the drum`.``

The Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily Allaah has prohibited for my Ummah wine, gambling, a drink distilled from corn, the drum and the lute; while He supplemented me with another Prayer, the witr``

The Narration of Haakim and Others :
That the Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily I did not prohibit weeping [per se], but rather I forbade two voices [sowtayn] which are imbecilic [ahmaq] and sinfully shameless [faajir]: one a voice [singing] to the accompaniment of musical amusement [lahw] and Satan`s [wind] instruments; the other, a voice [wailing] due to some calamity, accompanied by striking of the face and tearing of garments. But this [weeping off mine] stems from compassion, and whosoever does not show compassion will not receive it.``
This hadeeth is graded Hasan, and has been strengthened by other narrations.

The Narration of Abu Bakr ash-Shaafi`ee : Anas bin Maalik related from the Prophet that ``two cursed sounds are that of the [wind] instrument [mizmaar] played on the occasion of joy and grace, and woeful wailing upon the occurrence of adversity.``

These narrations should prove sufficient to show the illegality of music and singing to musical accompaniment to the one ``has a heart or gives ear while he is heedful.`` [Surah Qaf Verse 37].

From the statements of the Companions :
The Sahaabah were the best people after the Messenger of Allaah , and best understood the deen of Islaam as they understood it directly from the Messenger . The ijmaa` (consensus) of the Sahaabah is therefore binding upon the Muslim Ummah, as is the complete consensus of any generation of scholars on a certain religious issue.

The Companions unanimously agreed upon the prohibition of music and song but allowed particular exceptions specified by the authentic sunnah.

Why RSS agrees with TNT ( much to the delight of the PAkis) -

Simple! The Indian muslims do not vote for BJP, rathar they vote against them- so they simply want to push the Indian muslims into the original nation created for them.

But the Indian muslims who have rejected the TNTs by staying in India cannot be blackmailed by the RSS goons by forcing the TNT on them- they have rejected the TNT in 1947- they reject the TNT in 21st century again.

Plats8: Yes, at this momemt I would agree. But, nothing is static. The pendulum will swing the other way as well.

#117 Harimau....... Thanks for your kind words. I was not aware of you interest in classical music. I am happy to know you like it. Recently heard some Indian classical music of two young female singers and just wrote few comments, informational and of appreciation just for joy . If you have interest just send note I can send it and get comments of Indian on my comments. I can be reached at aminapk@yahoo.com.
with best wishes to all.
(there are two main branches Hindustani and Karnatak style, latter being more sofesticated, more notes and more complex, trying to listen and appreciate. My little introduction with both feels the basics are almost in broader sense.) Many Hindus traditionally consier both dance and classical music as 5th Vedas.

re: Plats # 116

An undercurrent of the mistrust of Muslims is a fact that will not disappear merely by our demanding that it not exist. It can be eradicated by acknowledging it, understanding the full range of factors that enhance that distrust, and working to eliminating those factors. One way I have suggested is that we first understand that not all Muslims are the same. There are some Muslims that Hindus cannot trust just as there are some Hindus that Muslims cannot trust.

I suggest a simple rule. Always begin by assuming people to be less than perfect. These less-than-perfect people need to make very important judgements about other people. How are these judgements made? What factors enhance trust between communities, what enhance distrust? This objective approach is the only one that will solve any problem. Righteously demanding perfection from others is a waste of time.

AnOrdinaryHindu
I have heard a senior BJP leader state on a TV progam BBC Question Time India that he admired Jinnah since Jinnah had the right idea all along with his two nation theory. According to him, the problems being faced in India were because Jinnah`s idea was not `fully` implemented(meaning Hindus and Muslims were still trying to live together in India).

[Heres something funny. On the one hand, there are Pakistanis who demand that Indians accept Jinnah`s ideas as valid and at the same time, those Indians who DO believe in Jinnah`s ideas and seek to put them into practice, like BJP does, are termed `fascists` and `fundamentalists fueling hate` day in and day out by Pakistanis. ]

Anyway. The point is that don`t take the NDA national government`s current protestations about their belief in India`s secularism and pluralism on face value. IMO, its basically a facade which only a subset of the party may believe in and some leaders currently choose to project, thats all.

Ref Saminasha #115


I did what you asked for to the best of my ability.

AnOrdinary Hindu #114,

``Painting all Muslims as anti Indian is inimical to the interests of all Indians; but that is hardly Romair`s idea. All of us agree on that one.``

Unfortunately, a large fraction of us do not agree on that one. Like it or not, Muslims
are put to a litmus test of patriotism every time there is a tragedy of some sort (and
yes, losing to Pakistan in a cricket match is considered a tragedy in India). Have you
not noticed the instinctive mistrust of Muslims in your immediate circles and beyond ?

Stuka #21,

Sorry for the late response; was away from chowk for a bit. As far as my views on this
article is concerned, I think #20 summarizes them and I would rather not belabour the point.

You would agree that this article is merely a conduit to a much broader question at hand -
how do we wish to define India ? Now, as in all democracies, there are various
competing definitions of our country and nationhood. The RSS one, no matter how they
package it, is very exclusive - it has nothing to do with it being a Hindu organization.
There are Hindu organizations involved in doing social work all over the place in India
(RamaKrishna Mission, started by Vivekananda, comes to mind). The schools run by them
are not secular (they have daily prayers), but the worldview they offer is very different
than what the RSS schools do. The imprint the RSS education leaves on young minds
is very frightening to me. Fascist indoctrination always seems to provide a righteous
path and has a superficial appeal.

You mention that it is clear to you that secularism is the way forward for India. It seems
to have become increasingly unclear to a large fraction of Indians, however. Wouldn`t
you agree ?

Harimau,

I need some Indian classical music references. If you have the time, would you check the off the wall thread in the unplugged section?

thanks.

Dost-Mittar

Romair`s unique intellectual contribution is to compare BJP negatively with political and religious parties in his own country. I think that can be dismissed out of hand.

Painting all Muslims as anti Indian is inimical to the interests of all Indians; but that is hardly Romair`s idea. All of us agree on that one.

AnOrdinaryHindu#111:
I try not to look at things in terms of black and white. There is no denying the fact that the RSS has an agenda of creating a Hindu Rashtra and the BJP is a front of the RSS. Having said that, it is also a fact that the BJP is a political party and has attracted many young and bright people who have nothing to do with the RSS or its Hindutva agenda. I find even hindutva as a terribly vague concept. There are some aspects of it - developing self-esteem among the hindus and cultural nationalism for all Indians - that I find quite benign. But there are other aspects, of distorting history and contemporary reality to paint India`s 130 million Muslims as foreigners and disloyal citizens. It is this second aspect which I find is dangerous and inimical to the interest not only of Indian muslims but to India as well. This is where I fully agree with Romair.

Dost-mittar

People are now going to accuse you of being an RSS sympathizer. For me the conclusion must have already been reached.

BJP has primarily been a Hindu party, with some, very few, Muslims in it. It isn`t the ideal party to represent India. But I have noticed a pathological pattern on this site:

Paint all of BJP as the party of Nazis, RSS as full of Hitlers. Then claim that Pakistani parties are better and more secular (more secular in a nation that sees itself as only for Muslims). If anybody disagrees with your analysis, throw Gujrat in his or her face, blame it all on whole of BJP.

I am not sure this kind of conversation between Indians and Pakistanis helps. However, there are people in India who have a strong vested interest in using the tag of Hitler when speaking of BJP. Marxists, among others, are one such people.

In a democracy, between different parties vying for political support inside India, that may even be an understandable tactic. But does it help when the same tactic is adopted when conversation turns to Indo - Pak relations and comaparisons? I don`t think so. In fact, it distorts our entire perceptions and corrupts the whole dialogue. Yet whatever serves people`s vested interests will be done, facts or no facts.

Dost-mittar

People are now going to accuse you of being an RSS sympathizer. For me the conclusion must have already been reached.

BJP has primarily been a Hindu party, with some, very few, Muslims in it. It isn`t the ideal party to represent India. But I have noticed a pathological pattern on this site:

Paint all of BJP as the party of Nazis, RSS as full of Hitlers. Then claim that Pakistani parties are better and more secular (more secular in a nation that sees itself as only for Muslims). If anybody disagrees with your analysis, throw Gujrat in his or her face, blame it all on whole of BJP.

I am not sure this kind of conversation between Indians and Pakistanis helps. However, there are people in India who have a strong vested interest in using the tag of Hitler when speaking of BJP. Marxists, among others, are one such people.

In a democracy, between different parties vying for political support inside India, that may even be an understandable tactic. But does it help when the same tactic is adopted when conversation turns to Indo - Pak relations and comaparisons? I don`t think so. In fact, it distorts our entire perceptions and corrupts the whole dialogue. Yet whatever serves people`s vested interests will be done, facts or no facts.

RE: Sadna

``the issue is much bigger than can be safely left to intercommunity outreach among ordinary citizens alone.``

Of course. The problems are much bigger and more acute than in the US. Intercommunity outreach alone cannot solve those problems. But intercommunity outreach in the form of efforts to allay genuine concerns, beginning with the acknowledgement of objective facts, is the only bedrock upon which durable good relations can be built.

Dost-mittar #83: Thanks for the info.

``Muslims were not, nor or they now at the bottom of the totem pole. That place still belongs to the dalits.``

My reference is somewhat abstract. When I say Bengalis were at the bottom of the totem-pole and had little representation in Pakistani govt. organizations, like military, doesn`t mean they were are the very bottom, in comparison to every single community. In Pakistan, that position would belong to haris and peasants in feudal lands, who are generally Muslims, or to urban Christians. I am sure there were some Bengali communities, who were quite well off.

But the Bengalis were at the bottom in comparison, with West Pakistanis, as a whole. In detail, they were worse off than Punjabis, worse off than Pathans, worse off than urban Sindhis, Kashmiris (?). Though probably better off than rural Sindhis and Baluchis. But in a combined fashion, they were worse off than West Pakistanis. Similarly, from whatever I have read, the Indian Muslims are at the bottom in comparison to the Hindus, and other large combined combined communiities, as a whole. Of course, within Hindus, there are communities, that are worse off than Indian Muslims.

My reference is from Indian Muslim sources, like Muslim Gazzette and the statistics it provides. Some info from Pakistani friends who have visited India. And from my own interaction with hundreds of Indian engineers and students in the USA, out of which barely five have been Muslims (I don`t know how many were Dalits). I am not sure whether this is enough of a reference though.

``There is more to the BJP than their website (which I have only glanced at).``

I think it maybe a good idea for you to read the offiical BJP site, www.bjp.org. It also would be a good idea to go through the RSS website. As well as the VHP website. I am always surprised at how many Indians have not read these. It contains the official BJP history, philosophy, leadership, manifesto, and the official BJP`s write-ups on major issues.

This is right from the BJP`s mouth. It contains what they want the world to know about them. Much of it is actually very progressive and very constructive. Infact I agree with much of their economic view, and views on certain other issues.

However, there is a very clear Hinduvta, and anti-Muslim agenda. It is openly stated in the philosophy. I have quoted that many times on this site. It is not what the BJP has been able to implement currently. Probably because it is in a coalition. But one has to assume that if it gets full power, it will implement what it says in its own philosophy.

I think every Indian should go thru the BJP`s official website, word by word. That is what I have done. It is probably the best way to understand what it stands for.

The Congress, and what it did and did not do, I am not too informed about. It is quite possible I am giving it far more credit than it deserves. As you seem to be implying.

But the BJP`s philosophies I have read in some detial. And unless they are lying on thier site, and in their writings. their social agenda is quite dangerous for India; though their economic and some of the other agendas are quite good.

Ref Saminasha #36

[Tianamin Square was inexcusable, as was Stalin, and other ``marxist`` excesses. Period. Now I am looking for you capitalists to condemn Chile`s bloody history courtesy of Our Great Democracy, and a list that I believe even 12 head has grasped and pasted a million times. Can you account for the crimes that have been justified by capitalism? You may start with Robert Moses who did some lovely urban rearranging over here in NewYork.]

Let me state up front that I consider Henry Kissinger to be the greatest war criminal of the 20th century for his wars against Latin American and Southeast Asian nations. Le Duc Tho was correct in refusing to accept the Nobel Peace Prize for being clubbed together with Kissinger.

I happened to be living in Washington, DC when Orlando Letelier`s car was bombed and he was killed. The FBI dragged its feet and never bothered to find out who planted the bomb. The same thing went for the bombing of Arab Anti-Discrimination League offices.

Please believe me when I say I do not believe in nor practice selective outrage.

[My point is that political govts in Kerala, and the Netherlands have shown us that there are ways to address inequity. The kinds of critiques that Marxism provides may be used to reform our societies-and I dont see that as a bad thing.]

While the Marxist government in Kerala has done many good things, there were times when I felt a little less confrontation with the Central Government of India would have reduced the hardships faced by the Kerala population; in particular, the ruthless efficiency with which the Food Zones policy was enforced made sure that Kerala was living hand-to-mouth whereas there was a slight surplus of food in neighboring Tamil Nadu and Andhra. This of course played into the hands of the Marxist government because they got re-elected by blaming the Center.

I also object to the destruction of the enterpreneurial spirit of the Keralites. Most went to the Gulf for menial or blue-collar jobs. To this day, the highest literacy rate in India hasn`t translated into success in the IT field for Keralites. There are no IT companies worth their name in Kerala nor are the IT/Software Parks able to attract companies to fill up the space. Compare that to neighboring Andhra (Hyderabad), Karnataka (Bangalore) and Tamil Nadu (Chennai).

As to social programs, Tamil Nadu made education up to the 12th Standard free in the early 1970s; even private schools were ordered not to collect tuition from students but were re-imbursed by the state. (This is no longer the case because private schools today charge an arm and a leg). The state also funded a noon meal scheme in all the government schools so that the starving poor would have an incentive to send their children to the school at least for the sake of that meal.

I think democratic socialism as practiced in Western Europe (and a few states in India, though the scope in India is rather limited due to financial constraints) is a better alternative than mindless Marxist dogma.

Regards.

AnOrdinaryHindu #102
``I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India. ``

I agree. In fact, it should be true to a greater extent in India where inter-community links are more organic and even ancient.

But in India because the state and its organs, including police were/are involved, and also involved are national-level organisations including political parties, IMO, the issue is much bigger than can be safely left to intercommunity outreach among ordinary citizens alone.

Quoting from Dr. Yvette Rosser, about her visit to India`s northeast:

``I found women volunteers who run an after-school tutoring program in a tribal area three hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland.  Their situation needs some explaining. For over a century Christian groups have funneled millions of dollars into that neighborhood. Whenever and wherever twenty or thirty families or a small village converts to Christianity they build a huge church.  On our three-hour drive from Dimapur we passed numerous churches that were gargantuan white structures, especially when contrasted to the low, thatched homes of the local residents.

The ladies who ran the after-school program told me that eight years earlier, when their children were small, they got together and formed an after-school program ``like the one that was offered at the church``.  The reason they formed this program was because they did not like it that at the church their children were told repeatedly that their traditions were superstitious and that their deities were devils.  So they got together and started their own after-school program.......

In the village I visited a few hours from Dimapur, there is a large government school that goes through class X. When school is over the children either go home or go to tutoring.  The ladies I visited in Nagaland provided a place in their back yard, where their children could go for tutoring and snacks and also some physical education and learning songs and weaving.  The mothers of these non-Christian children, created a space where they do not have to hear repeatedly that their religion is evil and they should convert to Christianity.  There is a Shiva temple in the area where they go to worship, which they told me has been repeatedly vandalized.

This small neighborhood program had been going on for several years before the Vivekananda Kendra began helping them pay for snacks and built a small shelter.  They have also provided funds to help pay for trips to the doctor in Dimapur if a child is ill.  Now the daughters of these two founding women are in class nine and ten and they help tutor the little children after school.  They want to go to college in Dimapur to become teachers.

....

While investigating the grassroots recipients of IDRF dollars, I also visited a Dimasi village a few hours outside of Dimapur in Nagaland.  It is one of the few non-Christian villages in that neighborhood.  Last year they received some funds from the Vivekananda Kendra to help transliterate their ancestral prayers.  Vivekananda Kendras are one of the IDRF recipients.  I asked the Dimasis if the Vivekananda Kendra asked them to cry out ``Bolo Ram`` and urged them to give up their indigenous tradition and embrace Hinduism thereby leading to what Sabrang called the ``disintegration`` of Adivasi culture.  The Dimasi gentleman laughed and said that the Kendra had helped them to preserve their indigenous prayers, and they believed in Shiva Rai.  Last year they tape recorded the prayers of the old men of the Dimasi tribes and transcribed them, using Roman script, and made the prayer books available to all of the Dimasi villages.

His elderly mother said, with words that shook me, ``Over a hundred years ago the Americans came with the Kala Kitab (black book) and told us our Gods were Satans.  Now we are hearing that Americans are coming back and telling us to preserve our indigenous traditions``.  The men and women of the Dimasi village informed me that in the last few years since they have received help from the Vivekananda Kendra, they have felt a feeling of renewed pride in their own culture that was difficult to maintain when missionaries are always knocking on their door.  Importantly, the Dimasis received some funds to preserve an ancient Dimasi monument in a park in Dimapur, a giant stone-carved chess set associated with Bhima`s wife from the Mahabharata, who was from that tribe.

Regardless of the claims of the Sabrang initiative, the Dimasis are not being coerced or disintegrated by the help they are receiving from the Vivekananda Kendra, which may include some funds from the IDRF. The Dimasi are lively yet serious people. The village head told me that they were pushed into getting more organized when in 1999 there were dozens of huge prayer meetings in all the adjacent villages, revival meetings warning people that Jesus was returning to earth on the new year.  Missionaries from different churches would go through the villages on bicycles with bull-horns and tell people to come to the prayer meeting and be saved… to leave their old evil ways behind and be saved when the rapture comes on Dec. 31, 1999. 


The headmaster`s daughter asked her father why they couldn`t have a prayer meeting, which got him to thinking and he contacted other Dimasi leaders.  The next year they had a prayer meeting with several of the Dimasi tribes, which included traditional dancing and singing.  They did this for two years and then they got some help in printing up the Dimasi prayer booklets.  It doesn`t take a media savvy genius to understand why FIACONA (Federation of Indian American Christian Organizations of North America) would want to curtail such funds that support and strengthen indigenous traditions.  They become less easy to convert.

I had an eye-opening visit to Nagaland and Assam and hope to go back one day.  I met some amazing people.  I wish those scholars and others who signed this anti-IDRF petition would go there and see what kind of projects are being funded in the North East of India.  Very inspiring… not communal, unless you think helping people retain their indigenous traditions in the face of all kinds of globalizing pressure is dangerous.  I think it is dangerous if we lose these tribal traditions and they all become Jehovah`s Witnesses or Southern Baptists. It is a great boon to the religious diversity of the earth that the Vivekananda Kendra is helping the Dimasi to preserve their traditional prayers, lest they be lost for all generations.  

Dr. Rosser, contd. :

``In Dimapur I also met a journalist who is a Naga, with a Christian name.  Though he is the grandson of a Naga priest, his father converted to Southern Baptist religion.  Then, as a young man, feeling dissatisfied with the Southern Baptist faith, he converted to Roman Catholicism.  As a mature adult he still felt rootless, like he had no culture.  He looked around and in his own words he ``saw so many second and third generation Christianized Naga youths disenfranchised from their ancient traditions and turning to the narco-terrorist culture for lack of roots and identity.`` So he went back to the villages and tried to learn about the ancestral ways.  For several years he has been doing research on traditional Naga religion.  He is a small town journalist and his trips into interior Nagaland are self-financed, no connection with the IDRF. 


He is involved in a project to replant Banyan trees in Naga villages. It was an ancient tradition that each Naga village had a Banyan tree in the center with rocks at its base.  When a new village was established, a branch of a tree would be planted.  However, through the last century, when a village was Christianized, the missionaries told them to cut down the Banyan trees and throw the stones in the river.  This movement by a group of Nagas, NOT FUNDED BY THE IDRF, to replant the Banyan trees in some of the villages had been threatened with violence from certain Christian groups.

In fact, it is ironic, in India, a ``secular country``, shopkeepers in Dimapur are “required” to display Christmas lights...  whether they want to or not. There is a city ordinance that “suggests” that lights be displayed, but the local student union and the constables demand a bribe if businesses don`t hang Christmas lights.  Dimapur is predominately Christian, but it was quite strange to see gigantic Santa Clauses at each intersection with huge Orwellian stomachs and tiny heads.  At night large electrified red stars dangled eerily from tall bamboo poles above every other home.

While inquiring about recipients of IDRF funds, I met a young woman from a village in Arunachal Pradesh studying pre-law at a college in Guwahati.  She lives at the Vivekananda Kendra.  She is a follower of the Donyipolo religion, and is determined to preserve her indigenous faith.  She was not harming the beliefs of others because she was proud of her ancestral religion… she was preserving diversity. She was a petite, sweet, and sincere human. 


In Dimapur I also visited a Naga hostel run by followers of Rani Gaidinliu who were working to preserve the Heraka traditions.  The students there were kind, considerate and full of hope for today and promise for the future.  No one I met, not one program I investigated, not one person who was involved in preserving indigenous traditions, helping school children, or supporting young scholars, no one was preaching hate. 


I asked many of the people I met if the Vivekanada Kendra`s funds had strings attached.  Were they expected to leave their old ways behind and become ``part of the Hindu fold``? I was told each time that there is no distinction.  Their faiths have ancient connections with the Indian epics and countless cultural overlaps.  No one complained that their culture was being diluted by Saffron.  They all were grateful that someone cared about the preservation of their ancestral traditions. Sabrang`s research was way off the mark.  In the same EPW article quoted above, which is not at all complementary to the Sangh Parivar, the author states that, ``It is important to note that, in contrast to Christians, followers of these Hindu sects [Swadhayay, Swaminarayan, etc.] continue to worship their traditional gods and goddess and participate in community festivals and celebrations.``

---

The point is that if Professor Angana Chatterji was *really* interested in the tribals preserving their identity she would be talking about the tentacles of Southern Baptists spreading throughout India.

Romair#83:
Your knowledge of the Indian political situation is somewhat superficial, and you recognise that. Maybe, you should start reading the Ineteracts of those you dont now to get multiple perspectives on the Indian reality.

``However, India was able to do it with its Muslims, post-partition. Even if they were at the bottom of the totem pole, they still felt enfranchised enough that they did not want to separate (other than Kashmir). I look at this as a success for India, even if the time bomb had started ticking, under Congress.``
Muslims were not, nor or they now at the bottom of the totem pole. That place still belongs to the dalits. There are many prosperous muslim communities like the khojas, ismailis, memons and several industries, such as carpet making, dominated by the muslims. And they did ask for a separate country and got it, too!. As you are aware, their overwhelming majority wanted Pakistan. In a recent article in Dawn that you may have also read, it was stated that Muslims of UP, Bihar and CP, etc. voted for the Muslim League even though they knew that the creation of Pakistan will permanently taint them and cause hardships and sufferings for them in India. To the credit of the Congress, they were able to prevent this backlash from happening. But the policies they used to do so had some long-term, unintended though not unforeseeable, effects.
This is quite clear from the almost uniformly hostile reaction to Ms Chattterjee`s article, which is typical of the Congress stance taken during the Nehruvian period. If she had said that schools in a secular state should not be run by religious or religion-oriented organisations, including muslim, christian, sikh and other organisations, I doubt that she would have engendered the kind of hostile reaction that she has. This type of reaction remained suppressed as long as the charismatic Nehru was alive but could not be contained by lesser leaders.

``he dangerous part for India is that the opposition did not appear in the form of a moderate pro-Hinduism or an anti-secularism type of group. It went to the extreme. It appeared in the form of an extremely nationalistically and violent Hinduvta group. It did not just sideline the religious minorities in the country (like the MMA and other political parties in Pakistan do). It actually went after them. ``

I do not agree with this analysis and there is no point in repeating what has been said beofore. There is more to the BJP than their website (which I have only glanced at). In fact, I would have said that their record on the communal front compared favourably to that of the Congress, if Gujarat had not intervened. The Ayodhya mess was primarily the creation of Nehru`s trusted Chief Minister of UP, Govind Vallabh Pant, who allowed the installation of the Ram idol inside the Babri Masjid back in 1948 or thereabout, and Rajiv Gandhi who laid the shilanyas (foundation) ceremony for the Ram temple there. I am not denying that the RSS agenda is to ``Indianise`` Islam (whatever that means!). But the BJP`s constitution is quite secular and ``it actually goes after them`` to get their votes and support.

saminasha#86:
``Do you deny that the following paragraph has any validity?

``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``

If so, why? ``

I am not always correct in deciphering dialectical prose. But if I understand it correctly, the author seems to be sayinng that in the disrupting world forces confronting the tribal society (she refers to other groups as well but in the context of Orissa, it applies to mostly tribals) the RSS-run schools add another varibale. There can be no disagreemnet about that. But the question is, would they have been left alone to evolve in a natural way if the RSS schools were not there? I am not so sure. The RSS movement is basically reactionary - a reaction to the christian missionaries whose model of combining educational-welfare activities with religious indoctrination the RSS seems to be imitating. And from what I have read, the RSS indoctrination does not require them to give up their tribal gods and native, animisitic customs and practices, unlike the Abrahimic indoctrination which is less compatible with local customs and cultures.
Personally, I would like the tribals to be provided welfare and secular education so that they can develop naturally without destroying the fabric of their native society. But since the state and the secular NGOs have been negligent in doing this job, one cannot prevent others from doing the same, even though they may have other axes to grind.

sadna

Hordes intent on maximum destruction are deaf to reason. So it is more important that everyone pitches in to create a positive environment, within her or his community towards outsiders and outside towards themselves.

The example I gave should have clarified the issue. Ever since 9/11, regular brochures have begun to appear across the campuses in the US announcing similiarity of Islam with other religions. That`s a great thing. It removes apprehensions in the mind of other people who otherwise may develop doubts in their minds listening to extremists.

A similar emphasis on commonalities and peaceful intentions rather than differences will help great in South Asia too. I don`t see why what is true in the US shouldn`t be true in India.

Chowk has this weird policy of filching articles that supposedly would generate debate.
It would be best to leave these articles well enough alone when the author does not deign to participate in the debate. Professor Hoodbhoy, Tariq Ali and now Ms. Chatterji.. Just boycott them I say..

#77 by mohar11 on November 15, 2003 8:27am PT

I think that`s what is happening. Muslims are stepping up. This is a small sample - but my comany has a development team of 8 in India , 2 out of which are muslims.

I agree!! Infact most of the Islamists and illiterate mualavis in India act as inhibitors to muslims` aspiring to take the oppportunities and challanges now available in India.
However, this is changing and these Islamists are getting discredited with more muslim youths taking to secular professions.

``This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove secularism (or religion) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a secular party and a moderate reigious party, and let the people decide whom they want.``

Dangerous thesis by this guy called Romair. Nazi fascist would be happy-

This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove democracy (or fascism) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a democratic party and a moderate fascist party, and let the people decide whom they want.``

Saminasha
#70 by ballukhan on November 15, 2003 7:47am PT

I am not satisfied with Angana`s reporting! It was low on analyses and high on rhetorics as somebody has pointed out.
Are you still on the offer of $5000 ??

Just want to point out that in 1996-97, Orissa is said to have 65,500 primary schools, with a claimed enrollment of 4.5 million. Vidya Bharati`s 391 schools with 111K enrollment are
0.6% of the schools and 2.5% of the students (larger than average schools, it appears.)

AnOrdinaryHindu #94
Dargahs are often open graves of which there is no `inside` to invite anyone. And are you telling me that Hindus should have invited Ghouri or whoever inside the Somnath and showed him there was nothing to fear and then he wouldnot have destroyed it?

Yes you are right, there is a need for communities to reach out and talk to each other to build trust, but that was equally the responsibility of Hindus whom you claim ` feared what was inside` . They not only failed in this responsibility but chose to destroy the places of worship in addition.

Please donot make the mistake of projecting the actions of hordes intent on maximum destruction as driven by reason, we get enough of that sort of cr_p from supporters of jihad across the border.

re: sadna # 90

That is such a strong evidence that places of worship become much safer when they have the respect of all communities.

I have been heartened by the effort Arabs have launched in the US to invite Americans to mosques, to explain to them that they worship the same God, and that they are not anti-American. Even a small amount of similar effort in India will go a long way in promoting peace. Luckily, no Arab in the US has yet openly extolled Hitler as a hero, despite the not-so-hidden anti-semitism that is so common and visible.

That is the kind of respect we need in South Asia too.

Macgupta

A semi tongue-in-cheek observation:

One purpose of this article could be that Angana wants to inform us that she has read about the `subalterns.`

:)

re: saminashah # 87

In that case Angana is an extremely poor communicator. After all, there could be only two purposes for an article like this -

1. Address her personal inadequacies by seeking external, non Indian validation of her claims to intellect. There could also be financial objectives, but chowk doesnt pay its contributors. She might be making her living by writing such articles for her job, in which case, she has the freedom to do whatever it takes to put food on her family`s table. Many men and women do much worse.

2. Persuade those who disagree with her by engaging them in a dialogue. Unless she is a teenager, she shouldn`t expect all of us to be anxiously waiting for her words of wisdom.

---

Inequality -

I will be the first to acknowledge that there will be some inter-group inequality in the only possibility of peaceful co-existence between any majority and any minority. That flows from the very nature of democracies.

That is why democracies never set out to completely eliminate inequalities between groups. The objective is to make governance as close to equitable for individuals as possible, while protecting broad outlines of different cultural traditions.

In no countries do all groups have veto powers. Many directly impose a much more brutal system; in some cases, as in Malaysia, even when the majority forms just about 60% of the population, a far more elaborate system of privileges is built into the political fabric.

When lands also have core religious significance, as India does for Hindus, other communities adopt an uncompromising absolutist stand. There is no question of co-existence, peaceful or not.

Luckily we do not face that situation. A secular, equitable polity is possible. It is also desirable and has widespread support. The only non-negotiables are those based on facts, not opinions: that India has a very special significance for Hindus, along with Nepal, it is the only place in which Hindus dominate, and that Hindus have a long and not always happy history of being dominated by other groups.

We need to create a secular, progressive, and fair system given these realities. These realities mean that India will never be to Hindus only as much as US is to Christians. But we don`t need go the way of the Arabs either. Nor do we need to turn India into a Rome.

All we need in India is for people to be willing to work together, to respect each other, and eschew anything that fails that important test.

Saminashah inquires about the validity of the following paragraph:

``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``

---

It all sounds very good, but what does it mean?

The following words are used : ``minorities``, ``poor``, ``refugees``, ``disenfranchised`` ``subaltern``.

What refugees are there in Orissa? They are primarily from Bangladesh. What aspects of Bangladeshi policy that create these refugees has Angana Chatterji ever addressed, let alone criticized? Incidentally, it is these refugees that are accused by other people of the state as having annexed territory and resources. humanscapeindia.net reports a

`` large-scale influx of Bengali refugees, who have subsequently settled in coastal areas of the state, has raised many eyebrows. Besides engaging in marine and inland fishing and allied trades, they have illegally occupied coastal forestland and are responsible for the destruction of the coastal eco-system, complain some local residents of Jagatasinghpur district. The interception of illegal radio stations and the arrest of a few suspects in the Rajnagar block of Kendrapara district in May 2002 have brought to light the activities of infiltrators from Bangladesh and security breaches made in the vicinity of sensitive defence installations. It is suspected that ISI and other foreign intelligence networks have installed some transmission centres near Wheeler Island in the Bay of Bengal to get information regarding Chandipur missile testing range.``

Madhushree Mukherjee reported in the Scientific American that the Ridley`s turtle, which nests on Orissa shores, and is sacred to the local population, is being decimated by the Banglas.

We wait with bated breath to see in the battle between the natives, the refugees, the subaltern and the environment - on which side will Angana Chatterji dispose of herself.

Talking about ``disenfranchised`` on a Pakistani discussion board is an irony in itself. In the civic body polls in Sept 2003 in Orissa, the turn out was 70 percent. It seems more enfranchised to me than the place which Angana Chatterji calls home (California).

The purpose of this is to expose the fallacy that Prof. Chatterji is trying to exploit - evocation of poor, refugees, etc., does not confer correctness, or a moral advantage or anything.

OK, anyway, let us proceed. Some set of problems have ``produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship``.

Now, the main complaint against the RSS in the subsequent part of the article is that they are apparently trying to produce a uniform identity for all citizens of the state. So why is diverse identity politics a problem? It is a perfect counterfoil to RSS`s efforts. But for unknown reasons the author objects.

Let us proceed to make sense of the last sentence: ``At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``

Again, very evocative. The first unthinking response is - how horrible! The key emotive buttons - globalisation, nationalism, unravelling democracy - are hit upon. The supposed champions of Hindutva have also been rather scrupulous adherents to democratic practice - including stepping down without demur when they lose an election, a no-confidence motion or whatever. The fact is that the past years of economic reforms and subsequent growth have greatly reduced Angana Chatterji`s self-claimed constituency of the poor. As per this Dawn article, http://www.dawn.com/2003/10/20/op.htm#2, in the last two decades, poverty in India has declined from 45% to 26%. Much more effective than an army of Mother Teresas in reducing human suffering. Chatterji should instead be screaming that we are not getting economic liberation fast enough. But that is assuming that she is a humanitarian, a dubious assumption at best.

The complaints that the author has is that the RSS runs schools that teach the State curriculum, provide books in Oriya, offer income generation and computer skills, gets students to work for disaster relief and development, leadership skills. Very troubling, all of these. What is the alternative education that Professor Chatterji proposes?

re: samina

{The reason Chatterji is not here is obviously because she has better things to do with her time}

...but she doesn`t have better things to do than write articles for chowk?...

AnOrdinaryHindu #88

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/xml/uncomp/articleshow?art_ID=8283550
The police records also show that of the 523 places of worship damaged in the last two months of riots, 298 were dargahs, 205 mosques, 17 temples and three churches.

Romair:

``If India can get a pre-BJP social system, with post-BJP economic growth, it is set for success. ``

Absolutely right and good post.

re: harimau # 75

As you demonstrated, there need not be a contradiction between Islam and India. Ajmer Sharif, the final abode of Garib-Nawaz Moinuddin Chisti is as Indian as any Hindu temple.

We need to understand why Hindus, no matter how fanatic you may call them, will never destroy that Dargah. So there is a logic to Hinduism and the tolerance, even respect, it shows toward others. In a place that is 80% Hindu, if you push Hindus beyond that limit of tolerance you are just begging for trouble. That`s a matter of common sense.

An Ordinary,

The reason Chatterji is not here is obviously because she has better things to do with her time....but that some peaceful co-existance speech you posted....an interesting rhetorical tactic- marginalize non Hindus and then claim that Hinduism is being threatened when people point out the inequity of the situation. This should get you far...

Dost Mittar,

Do you deny that the following paragraph has any validity?

``In Orissa, over the last five years the Sangh Parivar`s tentacles have spread and thickened. Minorities, refugees, and the poor -- the social crevices in which they live narrow from neglect. The disenfranchised struggle to confront social violence. The annexation of territory and resources from the subaltern, the imposition of virulent ideologies and alienating economies, have produced diverse identity politics defining contested practices of citizenship. At the intersections of globalisation and hyper nationalism, Hindutva intervenes, unravelling the fragile fabric of democracy.``

If so, why?

$65 Nasah

Not only did I read Somini Sengupta`s article., I have even saved a copy of it which I now reproduce below. I disagree with your overall assessment of the school while recognizing that some of the education is narrow-minded and limiting. I would say it is very much reminiscent of education in a somewhat poorly run ``Christian`` school.

In a christian school, for example, one would learn that god had a son (!!!!) and various other quite astonishing and bizarre ideas. One would also learn that there is only one TRUE way and other ways are at best misguided but often also SATANIC and EVIL. Something similar is described here.

I have no experience with Madressah`s, so I cannot comment.

---

Hindu Right Goes to School to Build a Nation

By SOMINI SENGUPTA (NYT) 1884 words
Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 2
MANDOLI, India ? Just beyond the bustle of this
nation`s capital, in a sprawling compound of grassy
fields and peepal trees, is a microcosm of some of
India`s most destitute: children from pockets of poor,
indigenous communities scattered far in the
hinterlands.

There is the illiterate farmer`s son from the hill
tribes of Assam in the northeast. There is the
teenager with the bright probing eyes from Jharkhand,
one of the poorest corners of the country. There is a
boy, orphaned since the age of 5, who is housed, fed
and schooled here just outside New Delhi, the capital,
free of charge.

The nearly 300 boys here at the Sewa Dham school, most
of them from what are called the tribal belts of
central and northeastern India, hew to a rigorous
daily schedule from 5 in the morning until 10 at
night. They learn Hindu chants in the ancient
language, Sanskrit. They are taught to give up their
meat-eating ways and to become vegetarians. They are
regaled with tales of brave Hindu warriors and saints
and quizzed on the ravages of the Muslim emperor,
Babur.

Patriotic to some, frightening to others, this school
represents a central project of the increasingly
militant and powerful Hindu right in this country. It
is substantially bankrolled by Indians in the United
States and run by a charity affiliated with the oldest
and most prominent of the Hindu nationalist groups,
Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, or the National Voluntary
Service, known as the R.S.S.

The Hindu nationalist movement, once banned and
reviled for its connections to the man who killed
Gandhi, is ascendant once again. Founded in 1925 by
men who made no secret of their admiration for German
and Italian fascists, the National Voluntary Service
is the movement`s parent organization.

The Hindu nationalist network`s political wing, the
Bharatiya Janata Party, leads the coalition government
in New Delhi. The prime minister, Atal Behari
Vajpayee, was once a full-time worker for the
voluntary service.

Education is a centerpiece of the Hindu revivalist
campaign, which is natural, considering its cause: to
build a Hindu nation out of what is officially a
secular country with rights accorded to religious
minorities.

Its backers praise their efforts as a lift for the
society`s most downtrodden. But critics describe
schools like this one as madrasas of the Hindu right:
they pluck the youngest and most impressionable minds
and offer a basket of goods to those who otherwise
have nothing. While there is no evidence that these
schools prepare young boys to take up arms for a holy
war, as some madrasas do in Islamic nations,
certainly, schools like this one can train foot
soldiers for the Hindu nationalist crusade.

``They really look at their work as groundwork that
will pay off in centuries,`` said Christophe Jaffrelot,
a Paris University professor whose book ``The Hindu
Nationalist Movement in India`` (Columbia University
Press, 1996) is widely regarded as the authoritative
study of these groups.

``The R.S.S. is itself an educational movement,`` he
said. ``They want to shape and reshape the mind. That`s
why they want to attract really young people.``

The school is part of a network of social service
organizations that cater to indigenous people and
``dalits,`` or those on the lowest rungs of the Hindu
caste ladder ? the very people organizations like the
voluntary service has been losing to Christian
missionaries for decades. Across remote villages, it
dispatches so-called barefoot doctors armed with
first-aid kits and drugs to combat dysentery. It sets
up orphanages for the abandoned and hostels for
children who must travel long distances to go to
school.

Vidya Bharati, an educational charity that is a part
of the Hindu nationalist family, now runs 20,000
low-cost private schools serving 2.4 million children
across the country. The charity`s schools have
mushroomed recently, with over 1,000 new schools added
every year in the last decade.

Perhaps most notably, with a sympathetic government,
Hindu nationalist groups have mounted an ambitious
effort to revise the national educational curriculum,
replacing history textbooks that it finds
unsatisfactory with a canon of its own. Citizens`
groups have gone to court to block the introduction of
the new curriculum, and the matter now rests with the
Indian Supreme Court. Courses in astrology and ``Vedic
mathematics,`` ostensibly based on the ancient Hindu
Vedic texts, are now taught at the university level.

The Hindu nationalists` larger mission is summed up
this way in a required textbook for book 12th grade
students at Sewa Dham. ``Unfortunately, in the
religious land of India, there is no provision for
religious or cultural education,`` it reads in Hindi,
the medium of instruction at most of these schools.
``That is part of the reason behind the current chaos
in the nation. Today, revolutionary changes are being
talked about in the Indian educational system.
Religion, culture and nationalism are to be given
prominence.``

The schools are run by committed foot soldiers of the
voluntary service who bring to their work nothing
short of the missionary`s zeal. Indeed, it was to
fight the Christian missionaries in the tribal belt
that Rajinder Singh Negi, an upper-caste Hindu from
the northeastern province of Uttaranchal and an
energetic, affable teacher at Sewa Dham, chose his
vocation. ``Teachers control the mind,`` he said simply.

Portraits of Hindu heroes hang on the walls of the
school complex. There is the 18th-century king,
Shivaji, revered for having beat back Muslim rulers in
Maharashtra. There is Keshav Baliram Hegdewar, the
founder of the voluntary service, his picture
frequently garlanded with a string of fresh marigolds.
There is a panoply of ancient Hindu saints and
scholars credited with a host of scientific
achievements.

``Which proves,`` Mr. Negi, pointed out, ``that Indian
culture was far more advanced than Western culture.``

The Hindu right`s version of Indian history is far
from conventional. It holds that world civilization
emerged from India. Aryans were not foreigners from
the West, the view widely held by ancient historians,
but India`s native people. Muslims were invaders who
quashed Hindu traditions.

According to a ``cultural knowledge`` textbook produced
by the group`s education wing, Lord Ram, the
blue-skinned warrior-king of Hindu lore, lived 886,000
years ago, a conclusion based on ``ancient texts and
astrology.`` Ram is described as ``the source of
inspiration for Indian culture.`` The Hindu golden era,
they believe, dates back to the time of the Indus
Valley civilization of the third millennium B.C.

But it is not only the ancient past that concerns
them. A quiz written for eighth graders tests their
knowledge of the continuing campaign to build a Hindu
temple in Ayodhya, the mythical birthplace of Ram,
where Hindu militants razed a 16th-century mosque in
1992. Students are grilled on everything from the date
on which the temple reconstruction movement began to
the names of those killed by the police.

The cultural knowledge textbook also includes a pitch
to buy Indian goods and avoid foreign products. Indian
soap (Neem brand, for instance) is endorsed; foreign
soap (Palmolive) is to be boycotted. The same goes for
soda, ice cream, milk powder, jeans, cosmetics,
biscuits and more.

In addition to such cultural knowledge, the boys are
taught the standard Indian curriculum as well as yoga
and exercises. Television is restricted, and on a
recent afternoon, having just taken exams, dozens of
boys huddled around a television set watching a
body-building competition. Judging from the grades
posted in the principal`s office, Sewa Dham`s students
do well on state exams.

The principal`s office also displays a map labeled
``worldwide patronage.`` There are congratulatory
missives from the Vishwa Hindu Parishad of America ?
the expatriate branch of the World Hindu Council ? as
well as from the Arya Samaj of Bergen County and the
Hindu Society of Ottawa. On one recent day a check for
$2,340 arrived from a Hindu temple in the Catskills.
Another $3,500 came from Australia.

Donations of this size can go a long way here. The
Sewa Dham school has an annual budget of 5.4 million
rupees, or $113,000; about half comes from overseas,
school officials said. Suresh Joshi, the national
coordinator for the education wing of the voluntary
service, said that all told, it spent about 50 million
rupees, $1.04 million, a year on its charitable
projects, most of it focused on tribal peoples and
dalits. The voluntary service is active in 30,000
villages nationwide, Mr. Joshi said.

The group believes that all indigenous people, many of
whom practice animism, are really Hindus, whether or
not they realize it. Exposure to Hindu culture and
history, the group hopes, will persuade those people
to return to the fold.

``We believe all the tribalszap in India, they are
originally Hindu only,`` Mr. Joshi said. ``Slowly they
will feel like this. Then they will say themselves,
`We are also Hindus.` ``

The common Hindi word for the indigenous people
``adivasi,`` or people of the soil, is shunned by the
Hindu right, for it suggests that they predate Hindu
civilization. The voluntary service prefers to call
them ``vanvasi,`` or people of the forest.

Focus on the indigenous people seems to have paid off
in at least one corner of Gujarat. There, only a
couple of years ago, Hindu nationalists clashed with
indigenous people over conversions to Christianity.
During the recent Hindu-Muslim violence in that state,
some tribal groups went on a rampage against Muslims.

Voluntary service recruiters select the best and
brightest to enroll in schools like this one, with the
goal that they will return to their communities armed
with an education as well as a message.

In one Sewa Dham textbook, a section entitled ``Our
Goal`` reads: ``To develop a national educational system
that can develop a generation of youth who are full of
Hindu pride and patriotism.``

Bisoran Wari, an indigenous boy from the hills of
Assam, was chosen early. A volunteer from the group
persuaded his parents to send him to a school near his
home when he was 8. Three years later, after he had
shown promise, he was brought here to Sewa Dham. ``My
parents are farmers, they can only write their names,``
the boy said.

His version of the group`s history is, naturally,
rosy. Its founder, Dr. Hegdewar ? the students call
him ``guruji`` out of respect ? gathered young people
together and taught them how to ``serve society,``
Bisoran said. He would like to do that as well, he
said.

Now 18, having just taken his state graduation exams,
he plans to study politics at a state-run college near
his parents` home and, eventually, become a lawyer.
``Lawyers work for justice,`` he explained.

Then, if the voluntary service takes him for its
rigorous training program to become one of its
full-time workers, he said, he would consider joining.

Here is an example how muslims and others in India are trying to step up.

---

India`s Poor Bet Precious Sums on Private Schools
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/15/international/asia/15INDI.html

excerpts:
``With my little means, I have to manage my family,`` Mr. Rai said. ``But still, I thought to spare some extra money for the boy, so he will do well in life.`` A member of the cowherders` caste, Mr. Rai dreams that his son will become a ``big officer.``

``Since ages, we are doing manual work,`` said Rehaman Sheik, 35, an illiterate plumber in the Dharavi slum of Bombay. ``Why should they?`` he said of his sons. ``They should have a good profession.``

dost-mittar #79: I obviously don`t know what happens inside India, since I have never lived there. And my interests in Indian politics only developed over the past ten years, as I started meeting more and more Indians. So I can only comment based on whatever little I know.

I don`t think Congress did that bad of a job, after partition - socially speaking. In fact, I think they did a pretty good job socially; though a terrible job economically (Pakistani leaderships did an good job economically, but a terrible job socially). I think it is nearly impossible, for third world countries, to survive in one piece, with large religious and ethnic minorities; much less allow the minorities to completely become a part of the society. Pre-partition India could not do it with all Muslims. Pakistan could not do it with Bengalis.

However, India was able to do it with its Muslims, post-partition. Even if they were at the bottom of the totem pole, they still felt enfranchised enough that they did not want to separate (other than Kashmir). I look at this as a success for India, even if the time bomb had started ticking, under Congress.

However, in third world countries, this can only last for so long. The pie is just not big enough to accomodate all groups. Either India would have had to make huge economic progress to accomodate everyone. Or it would have to somehow or the other keep the rise of majority extremist nationalistic parties, in check.

This is where, I think the problem started. The Congress had terrible economic policies. And could not expand the pie. Invariably, somebody would attempt to make a minority party the scapegoat for this, as in all third world countries.

The dangerous part for India is that the opposition did not appear in the form of a moderate pro-Hinduism or an anti-secularism type of group. It went to the extreme. It appeared in the form of an extremely nationalistically and violent Hinduvta group. It did not just sideline the religious minorities in the country (like the MMA and other political parties in Pakistan do). It actually went after them.

I think the Gujrat killings are just one part of BJP. It is their own advertised agenda on their website that is scary. That is not the agenda of a Hindu party. It is an agenda of an anti-Muslim party. There is a big difference there.

As strange as this may sound, I think the party that could counter the BJP the best, is not a secular Congress. It would be a moderate Hindu non-secular party. I think there are too many educated and sensible Indians who support BJP (this is scary). If they had another moderate Hindu alternative, they may go there. Though they will never go to a Congress, which they consider pro-Muslim.

This is why I think in Pakistan, the party that will successfully counter the MMA will be one that either brings huge economic progress to those areas. Or a moderate Islamic party. Not one that tries to wipe out the MMA, through forced secularism.

Such parties will only make the MMA stronger, as a counter to them. Similarly if BJP makes India richer, I doubt Congress will ever be able to challenge it; regardless of how secular the Congress happens to be. While a moderate Hindu party could challenge the BJP on its own religious turf.

In religiously motivated, third world societies, it is always necessary to have a party that occupies the non-secular part of politics. Preferably a very moderate non-secular party. If such moderately religous parties, or their breathing spaces, are wiped out, then that leaves the ground open for extremist religious parties. This is why I think third world religious socities (India Pakistan etc.) that try to shove secularism (or religion) down the throat of its citizens, will always face a backlash, which will favor extremist parties, like the BJP. The best situation for them is to have a secular party and a moderate reigious party, and let the people decide whom they want. Rather than only having two secular parties. Two secular choices, if they are both economic failure, will invariably lead to an extremist religious choice.

This is also why we are seeing the rise of religious parties in third world countries.

Angana`s analytical abilities and her arguments are the best support to RSS.

The contradictions in Angana Chatterjee`s rant should be apparent to anyone who reads her article with a dispassionate mind.

For instance, she says ``Sectarian education campaigns undertaken by Hindu extremist groups demonize minorities through the teaching of fundamentalist curricula.``

On the other hand, ``Most RSS run schools are affiliated with the State Board of Education and adhere to the state approved curricula.``

Therefore she postulates a process of ``Hindutva infiltration`` of the State Board, which she nowhere demonstrates.

Similarly, she writes: ``The vigorous assertion of Sanskrit provides for the erasure and Hinduisation of minority languages.`` But the texts the RSS uses are in Oriya! `` These texts, written in Oriya, are taught in schools and available in bookstores.``

The class of person that Angana Chatterjee represents are ``correct`` regardless of their contradictions, because they claim to represent ``liberal, humanitarian, secular`` values. In reality, they represent nothing of the sort, and their increasing cries of alarm are because Indians, as they rise out of their socialist stupor, see little value to these people.

The common theme of these people is vilification of the RSS. On the activities they cannot agree, for instance Angana Chatterjee writes that the RSS is erasing local culture, erasing the little traditions in favor of the overarching grand tradition. However, Marxist historian Romila Thapar in a workshop, had this:

``Romila Thapar: That I think is a particularly important view. What we were talking about yesterday that many of us who belong to the secular tradition do not really have a feel for local history. It is very important that one goes into the, question of local history, does it intelligently, and says that you know this, this and this is possible but this is definitely not possible. So one has to force oneself to take an interest in local culture and local history.

Comment: I believe the RSS is engaged in a massive project of going into local history. I think in the next ten years, they plan to go into each, district, each local area, and produce their versions of local history. It is therefore necessary that secular historians and groups also take serious interest in understanding local history.``

So, in this version it is the so-called secular historians who have been ignoring local cultures and trying to force all the peoples of India into one mode, and RSS is the defender of local culture!

These people should at least have a consistent complaint against the RSS. (The dispassionate mind will note that the evidence from everyone who has done a field visit is in favor of the idea that RSS promotes and preserves the local culture.)

---

In general, if Hindus don`t organize, then these people talk about the backwardness of Hindu society, unable to unite even for its own welfare. When Hindus do organize, then it is dangerous, by definition, though the danger is not demonstrated. The key danger of course, is that Hindus do not genuflect to Angana Chatterjee and Romila Thapar.

The dispassionate mind will laud the RSS for opening schools, and for attempting to get students to be public-spirited, donating effort for development and disaster relief. It will laud the RSS for attempting to break down jati and varna barriers. It will note that the funding and facilities are probably inadequate, and the quality of education is probably still far from national standards, let alone world-class. It will also note that the RSS effort is only a drop in the ocean, an enormous amount more is needed, and that there is room to open competing schools teaching competing visions of India.No one prevents Angana Chatterjee and Romila Thapar and Sabrang and the innumerable always-talk-and-do-nothing NGOs from opening their schools except their utter impotence.

dost-mittar #78
One of her fellow travellers is Ghulam Nabi Fai, who has in the past travelled to Pakistan to meet with Pakistani military brass and is reported to support the Hizbul Mujahiddeen, a armed jihadi group that openly touts ``Islamic rule`` for J&K.

This group has been killing not only paramilitary and Kashmiri police but also unarmed civilian Kashmiris, members of National Conference and the ruling PDP, elected village council chiefs or simple political activists.

It will be a real surprise to get honest replies to the questions on this board from a person like her.

Romair:
A generally good post, much more balanced than Angana`s article. Hindians would do well to pay heed to the gist of your message, which is to do something about the rising muslim alienation. This, you might recall, was also the theme of my `Hey Ram` article. But there is also a lack of comprehension of the facts on your part, esp, from a hindian perspective.

You say,
``However, India has a ticking time bomb also. Interestingly, this time-bomb did not exist when India was poorer, and more secular. The time bomb is India`s Muslim minority.``

Actually, this time bomb was ticking all along during the Congress rule. It is just exploding now. To some extent, it was ticking because of the pseudo-minortyism of the Congress leadership, which encouraged and subsidised Muslims to develop an identity which was not always compabtible with the mainstream, while not taking any positive steps to improve their socio-economic conditions. Given the trauma of the TNT and partitition, the leadership should have encouraged Muslims to think of themsleves more in terms of being part of the Indian rather than the Umma polity. The leadership went so far in accomodating the Muslim view of ancient, medieval and modern history, that it bred silent resentment (ticking bomb!) in the majority community. It was easy then for the vested interests to pick up on issues like Ayodhya, Shah Bano, haj subsidies or muslims allegedly cheering for Pakistani teams to show a match to that ticking bomb.
But the situation is not as bad as it seems. There is a rising realisation among the saner elements of hindus and muslims of the threat the rise in communalism poses to India. Let me make some personal observations: During my last visit to India, this issue was quite on my mind. I noticed a few things which I did not perhaps fullly share in my `Hey Ram` article.
-Muslims are much more visible in the cities in India than they were before, in the sense that they can be easily identifiable through their burgas, hijabs, beards, attire, etc.; there are many more mosques and azaans are heard now in even predominantly hindu areas;
I was not fully able to understand the reason for this. Is it because Muslims have become more religious now? is it because of the large-scale migration to the cities, which includes both muslims and hindus as well as illegal bangladeshi immigrants; is it because their population is increasing faster, at least in the cities? Or, is it because, despite everything that is happening, they feel more confident of venturing, living or doing business in hindu-dominated areas than they did before?
-There is greater muslim presence in non-traditional muslim occupations such as medical profession. My physio-therapist and clinical lab assistant were both muslims, as was my barber/hair stylist.
-In my conversation with a few ordinary muslims that I came across, I was not surprised that they were not keen to discuss the communal situation, but what did surprise me was that they most of them did not think that their life or percetions had changed because of the events in Gujarat. This feeling however was not shared by the educated muslims who one would normally consider to have become part of the mainstream.
In the end, both Hindus and Muslims havto make some changes. Hindus have to stop thinking of Muslims as aliens living in India as a matter of courtesy extended by the Hindus. They have to realise that India is as much theirs as that of Muslims and recognise their contribution to India in all walks of life. But Muslims too have to make an effort to make Hindus think that they are no less loyal to India than hindus are. And this might, in some cases, mean taking a more-catholic-than-pope attitude towards issues that have somehow become an acid test of patriotism.

Ras:
`` Once again I can make a suggestion to Indian readers here.

Read this article and learn.

(Before it is too late)``

This advice wont work for the following reasons:
-Angana`s target audience is Pakistanis, communists and fellow-travellers, she is mostly speaking to the converted and a few relevant points she makes get lost in several other points of doubtful validity;
-If you want to influence someone, you dont do it by insulting and fuming hatrted; she is as likely to influence the thinking of hindus as hamidm is of muslims;
-Unlike hamidm who gives arguments about his case based on facts and is willing to engage those who disagree with him, Angana is so superficial that anyone with a modicum of knowledge about what she talks about can beat her with arguments with less brains than are needed to watch a Bollywood masala film. And she is never there to defend herself, leaving it to others, mainly even more poorly informed Pakistanis, so the article ends up as another useless India-Pak pissing match.


harimou#75
Good post, esp. wrt sacred muslim shrines in India. What`s the story behing the Rasul Kadam site?

Romair
//...In the end, I think the future of India, will not be decided by how strong its Hindu majority is. But by how strong and rich its Muslim minority is...//

Hmmm... Why is that? Would you say future of Bangladesh will be decided how strong and rich its hindu minority(almost 10%) is? Would you future of US is doomed if its black minority is not strong and rich?

People are getting richer in India by hard work using their education and grabbing the opportunities of new economy. This includes hindus, muslims and whoever. Muslims are comparatively backward at this point - so are many hindu communities. How much they progress will primarily depend on how effectively they grab the opportunities around, with help from majority community and the govt. and civil society in general.

I think that`s what is happening. Muslims are stepping up. This is a small sample - but my comany has a development team of 8 in India , 2 out of which are muslims.

I am sorry to see that the author could not summon the courage to defend her article.

My advice to the author and all such angana wannabes is as follows:

If you want to be taken seriously by anybody worth anything in India now, keep your eye on the target. Raise your voice against anybody spreading hatred against anybody else. No Hindu should be demeaning Muslims or Christians (the two communities that are often targetted by Hindutva votaries). Similarly, no Muslim or Christian should be demeaning Hindus. No one should teach children religious materials and mythologies that predisposes them against members of other religions.

If you do that, you will automatically catch many of the zealots among Hindus (and others). These people make their living by preaching against other religions. Progressive Hindus will support you. We can work together, no matter what your background.

On the other hand, you cannot and should not come in the way of Hindus learning about their culture, their history, their holy places. If I say that Hinduism is the greatest religion on earth and teach school children about Hinduism, you have no business throwing your your marxist lecture at me. I am sufficiently familiar with Marx to throw that and much more back at you.

You must understand the concept of core religious places and core historical symbols. For Hindus, India is the central, core geographical location. That is one fact that will not go away just by waving Marxist manifestos in the air.

Once you accept that self-evident fact, then Hindus and everyone else, can get down to the task of making India as secular, nondiscriminatory, and inclusive as realistically possible. Please notice the word `realistically.` Don`t expect any utopias, at least not in India.

If you don`t accept the self-evident fact, and try to strike Hinduism at its very heart, you will not find many peaceful or respectful Hindus any more. It doesn`t matter what your ideology, caste, religion, or science teaches you. You diss us and we will hammer you.

Hindus are going to respect only those who give them the respect of acknowledging what their core religious and cultural symbols mean to them. To those who do not give Hindus that respect, the Hindu of tomorrow is going to be very different from the Hindu of the past.

That is what all communities get. That is what Hindus will take too. Strike a fair deal, and we will all be better off. Try to continue what has happened in the past, you will be in for a very nasty surprise.

Peace.

No, I am not talking about what Habermas has to say about Islamic identities-
I am talking about some original work which draws from discourse analyses - may be Habermas` universal discourse- to analyse the rhetoric surropunding the Islamic identity in Pakistan and the recent Hindu identity- icluding the discourse analyses of OBL and his cronies- also of Mush and to unravel the web of power behind it-
It should be terse and clear for our politcal analyst`s understanding and should avoid too much of Habermas` pudding of theories on communicative action.

I would like to offer $5000 for the effort.

Romair # 66

`....I rarely see any Indian Muslims in the North American IT industry. My guess is they probably are less than 5% (maybe even 2% or so) in India`s IITs....

You are a genius at reaching a theory and fitting the fact to explain it. You are correct that the percetage of muslims is small in the IT, but so is that of Biharis, Bengalis, Assamese, Rajasthani, etc. Most of the revolution in this fied is from south India and pockets of Punjab and Delhi. The reason is that people follow a successful model. Once a person is successful in certain field, the others follow his example. This follows like the family, the community, the city, the state and so on. The ripple of software that started in the south is spreading all over the country slowly but surely.

Also in private enterprise, it is the initiative of the individual that makes the difference. It is the lack of right education and the attitude that makes the difference. That is where you will find the reason for non participation in the success stories by the Biharis, Orians, Rajasthanis and yes muslims.

re:#66 by Romair
I for one agree with our Field Marshal. India`s demographic statistics on muslims is depressing to read. A study was done in 1998 and totally debunked the popular notion that minorities (especially the muslims) are being appeased and given special favors.
http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-reddy070803.htm

Excerpts:

``The socio-economic profile that the NSSO estimates paint of the Muslim
Indian is a depressing one. In all major socio-economic indicators, the
members of India`s biggest religious minority are, on the average, worse
off than members of the majority community. First, they spend less on
items of daily consumption because they apparently earn less. The
incidence of poverty is therefore likely to be higher among Muslims than
Hindus. Second, literacy rates are substantially higher among the
Hindus. And a Hindu boy or girl who goes to school is more likely to go
on to college than a Muslim. Third, working Muslims are to be found more
in casual labour and seasonal occupations than Hindus. Fourth, among
those with access to land a Hindu household is more likely to be
cultivating larger plots. Fifth, unemployment rates are higher among
Muslims than Hindus. This overall profile is true of both men and women,
in rural and urban India and in all States. Moreover, the disparity
between the majority and minority religious groups in most cases widened
during the 1990s. The only positive feature is that the sex ratio among
Muslims is better than among the Hindus.``

So, the statistics clearly tell a story of under-representation of muslims in various fields and increasing disparity between the hindus and muslims. The question is why? Is it discrimination?
Pakis would like to believe it is. Such a thought is reassuring for them (as our jehadi minded FM showed in his post). It would reaffirm their faith in the TNT.
Here is an interesting artile by an Indian muslim that repudiates the idea of discrimation:
http://www.hvk.org/articles/0199/0013.html

Excerpts:
``Arguments based on this data appear to be logically comp