Learning in Saffron: RSS Schools Orissa

#120 by ahmedmadani on November 17, 2003 10:48pm PT

I would like my Islamic scholar fellows to comment on the issue of whether Music is Haram or not?? The article is posted in the unplugged section as well.
The Religion of Islaam has made clear the prohibition of Music, as is clear from the Qur`aan, ahaadeeth of the Messenger and the understanding of the Companions , when all three are taken together.


From the Qur`aan:

Allaah says, what means: ``Do you marvel at this statement, and laugh and do not weep, while you amuse yourselves [proudly] in vanities ? Rather, prostrate before Allaah and worship Him [alone].`` [Surah An-Najm (The Star) Verse 59 to 62 ]

According to Ibn Abbaas , the word `saamidoon` in this verse refers to the mushrikeen`s habit of singing and playing music noisily whenever they heard the Qur`aan being recited, in order to drown out the reciters voice so that others wouldn`t hear it.

Also, Allaah says (regarding Satan) what means: ```And excite any of them whom you can with your voice. Assault them with your cavalry and infantry, be a partner with them in their wealth and children, and make them promises.` But Satan promises them nothing except deceit.`` [Surah Al-Isra (The Journey by Night) Verse 64]

Some of the taabi`een such as ad-Dahhaak and Mujaahid interpreted Satan`s exciting mankind with his voice to mean through the use of music, song and amusement. Ad-Dahhaak said it was the sound of wind instruments. However according to Ibn Abbaas , the voice mentioned in the verse refers to every form of invitation which calls to the disobedience of Allaah the Exalted, which seems to be the most correct interpretation.

Finally, Allaah says what means: ``And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allaah without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allaah, the Verses of the Qur`aan) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).`` [Surah Luqman (Prophet Luqman) Verse 6]

Ibn Masood said about this verse ``I swear by the One other than Whom there is no God that it refers to singing [ghinaa].``, and he repeated this three times. Ibn Abbaas said it referred to `singing and the like` while Jaabir is reported to view its meaning to signify singing and listening to songs. Many taabi`oon such as Mujaahid, Ikrimah, Mak-hool and Umar ibn Shu`ayb viewed it as a censure of music and song.

From the ahaadeeth of the Messenger :
Contrary to the commonly held belief, there are a number of authentic narrations from the Prophetic Sunnah which clearly point to the indisputable fact that music, instruments, singing to accompaniment, etc. are objects prohibited by the Islaamic Sharia. The exceptions to this general rule are specific , limited types of innocent singing or chanting without any instrumental accompaniment or to the accompaniment of a simple hand drum (daff) on certain occasions designated by the sunnah.

Unfortunately, many Muslims entertain the misconception that all the ahaadeeth relating to music, singing and musical instruments are either weak (da`eef) or forged (mawdoo`) - a position that is untenable.

The Narration of al-Bukhaaree:
The Prophet said : ``There will be [at some future time] people from my Ummah who will seek to make lawful fornication, the wearing of silk, wine drinking and the use of musical instruments [ma`aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of the mountain and when their shepherd comes in the evening to ask them for his needs, they will say : `Return to us tomorrow`. Then Allaah will destroy them during the night by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.`` al-Jowhari, the author of the ancient dictionary `as-Sihaah`, asserts that ma`aazif signifies musical instruments, al-`aazif indicates one who sings, and the `azf of the wind is its voice..

Az-Zabeedi also says that ma`aazif are instruments of leisure which are drummed upon or played, like the loot (`ood) , the drum (tanboor), the small hand drum (daff) or other such musical objects.

Ibn Hajar in Fathul-Baaree relates that `azf is also used to describe singing (ghinaa).

This authentic hadeeth clearly establishes the prohibition of music and singing and this in itself is sufficient for the one who really wishes to see the Truth of the affair. However there are other authentic narrations on the subject that we quote below.

The Narration of Ibn Maajah :
The Messenger of Allaah said : ``A people of my Ummah will drink wine, calling it by other than its real name. Merriment will be made for them through the playing of musical instruments and the singing of female singers. Allaah will cleave the earth under them and turn others into apes and swine.``
This hadeeth has also been narrated by al-Bayhaaqi and ibn Asaakir, and has been authenticated by the renowned scholar of hadeeth Ibn al-Qayyim.

Narrations of Ahmed bin Hanbal :
The Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily Allaah prohibited wine, gambling and al-koobah; and every intoxicant is prohibited.`` Sufyan said : `` I asked the narrator, Ali bin Badheemah, ` What is al-Koobah?` He answered, `It is the drum`.``

The Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily Allaah has prohibited for my Ummah wine, gambling, a drink distilled from corn, the drum and the lute; while He supplemented me with another Prayer, the witr``

The Narration of Haakim and Others :
That the Messenger of Allaah said : ``Verily I did not prohibit weeping [per se], but rather I forbade two voices [sowtayn] which are imbecilic [ahmaq] and sinfully shameless [faajir]: one a voice [singing] to the accompaniment of musical amusement [lahw] and Satan`s [wind] instruments; the other, a voice [wailing] due to some calamity, accompanied by striking of the face and tearing of garments. But this [weeping off mine] stems from compassion, and whosoever does not show compassion will not receive it.``
This hadeeth is graded Hasan, and has been strengthened by other narrations.

The Narration of Abu Bakr ash-Shaafi`ee : Anas bin Maalik related from the Prophet that ``two cursed sounds are that of the [wind] instrument [mizmaar] played on the occasion of joy and grace, and woeful wailing upon the occurrence of adversity.``

These narrations should prove sufficient to show the illegality of music and singing to musical accompaniment to the one ``has a heart or gives ear while he is heedful.`` [Surah Qaf Verse 37].

From the statements of the Companions :
The Sahaabah were the best people after the Messenger of Allaah , and best understood the deen of Islaam as they understood it directly from the Messenger . The ijmaa` (consensus) of the Sahaabah is therefore binding upon the Muslim Ummah, as is the complete consensus of any generation of scholars on a certain religious issue.

The Companions unanimously agreed upon the prohibition of music and song but allowed particular exceptions specified by the authentic sunnah.

Why RSS agrees with TNT ( much to the delight of the PAkis) -

Simple! The Indian muslims do not vote for BJP, rathar they vote against them- so they simply want to push the Indian muslims into the original nation created for them.

But the Indian muslims who have rejected the TNTs by staying in India cannot be blackmailed by the RSS goons by forcing the TNT on them- they have rejected the TNT in 1947- they reject the TNT in 21st century again.

Plats8: Yes, at this momemt I would agree. But, nothing is static. The pendulum will swing the other way as well.

#117 Harimau....... Thanks for your kind words. I was not aware of you interest in classical music. I am happy to know you like it. Recently heard some Indian classical music of two young female singers and just wrote few comments, informational and of appreciation just for joy . If you have interest just send note I can send it and get comments of Indian on my comments. I can be reached at aminapk@yahoo.com.
with best wishes to all.
(there are two main branches Hindustani and Karnatak style, latter being more sofesticated, more notes and more complex, trying to listen and appreciate. My little introduction with both feels the basics are almost in broader sense.) Many Hindus traditionally consier both dance and classical music as 5th Vedas.

re: Plats # 116

An undercurrent of the mistrust of Muslims is a fact that will not disappear merely by our demanding that it not exist. It can be eradicated by acknowledging it, understanding the full range of factors that enhance that distrust, and working to eliminating those factors. One way I have suggested is that we first understand that not all Muslims are the same. There are some Muslims that Hindus cannot trust just as there are some Hindus that Muslims cannot trust.

I suggest a simple rule. Always begin by assuming people to be less than perfect. These less-than-perfect people need to make very important judgements about other people. How are these judgements made? What factors enhance trust between communities, what enhance distrust? This objective approach is the only one that will solve any problem. Righteously demanding perfection from others is a waste of time.

AnOrdinaryHindu
I have heard a senior BJP leader state on a TV progam BBC Question Time India that he admired Jinnah since Jinnah had the right idea all along with his two nation theory. According to him, the problems being faced in India were because Jinnah`s idea was not `fully` implemented(meaning Hindus and Muslims were still trying to live together in India).

[Heres something funny. On the one hand, there are Pakistanis who demand that Indians accept Jinnah`s ideas as valid and at the same time, those Indians who DO believe in Jinnah`s ideas and seek to put them into practice, like BJP does, are termed `fascists` and `fundamentalists fueling hate` day in and day out by Pakistanis. ]

Anyway. The point is that don`t take the NDA national government`s current protestations about their belief in India`s secularism and pluralism on face value. IMO, its basically a facade which only a subset of the party may believe in and some leaders currently choose to project, thats all.

Ref Saminasha #115


I did what you asked for to the best of my ability.

AnOrdinary Hindu #114,

``Painting all Muslims as anti Indian is inimical to the interests of all Indians; but that is hardly Romair`s idea. All of us agree on that one.``

Unfortunately, a large fraction of us do not agree on that one. Like it or not, Muslims
are put to a litmus test of patriotism every time there is a tragedy of some sort (and
yes, losing to Pakistan in a cricket match is considered a tragedy in India). Have you
not noticed the instinctive mistrust of Muslims in your immediate circles and beyond ?

Stuka #21,

Sorry for the late response; was away from chowk for a bit. As far as my views on this
article is concerned, I think #20 summarizes them and I would rather not belabour the point.

You would agree that this article is merely a conduit to a much broader question at hand -
how do we wish to define India ? Now, as in all democracies, there are various
competing definitions of our country and nationhood. The RSS one, no matter how they
package it, is very exclusive - it has nothing to do with it being a Hindu organization.
There are Hindu organizations involved in doing social work all over the place in India
(RamaKrishna Mission, started by Vivekananda, comes to mind). The schools run by them
are not secular (they have daily prayers), but the worldview they offer is very different
than what the RSS schools do. The imprint the RSS education leaves on young minds
is very frightening to me. Fascist indoctrination always seems to provide a righteous
path and has a superficial appeal.

You mention that it is clear to you that secularism is the way forward for India. It seems
to have become increasingly unclear to a large fraction of Indians, however. Wouldn`t
you agree ?

Harimau,

I need some Indian classical music references. If you have the time, would you check the off the wall thread in the unplugged section?

thanks.

Dost-Mittar

Romair`s unique intellectual contribution is to compare BJP negatively with political and religious parties in his own country. I think that can be dismissed out of hand.

Painting all Muslims as anti Indian is inimical to the interests of all Indians; but that is hardly Romair`s idea. All of us agree on that one.

AnOrdinaryHindu#111:
I try not to look at things in terms of black and white. There is no denying the fact that the RSS has an agenda of creating a Hindu Rashtra and the BJP is a front of the RSS. Having said that, it is also a fact that the BJP is a political party and has attracted many young and bright people who have nothing to do with the RSS or its Hindutva agenda. I find even hindutva as a terribly vague concept. There are some aspects of it - developing self-esteem among the hindus and cultural nationalism for all Indians - that I find quite benign. But there are other aspects, of distorting history and contemporary reality to paint India`s 130 million Muslims as foreigners and disloyal citizens. It is this second aspect which I find is dangerous and inimical to the interest not only of Indian muslims but to India as well. This is where I fully agree with Romair.

Dost-mittar

People are now going to accuse you of being an RSS sympathizer. For me the conclusion must have already been reached.

BJP has primarily been a Hindu party, with some, very few, Muslims in it. It isn`t the ideal party to represent India. But I have noticed a pathological pattern on this site:

Paint all of BJP as the party of Nazis, RSS as full of Hitlers. Then claim that Pakistani parties are better and more secular (more secular in a nation that sees itself as only for Muslims). If anybody disagrees with your analysis, throw Gujrat in his or her face, blame it all on whole of BJP.

I am not sure this kind of conversation between Indians and Pakistanis helps. However, there are people in India who have a strong vested interest in using the tag of Hitler when speaking of BJP. Marxists, among others, are one such people.

In a democracy, between different parties vying for political support inside India, that may even be an understandable tactic. But does it help when the same tactic is adopted when conversation turns to Indo - Pak relations and comaparisons? I don`t think so. In fact, it distorts our entire perceptions and corrupts the whole dialogue. Yet whatever serves people`s vested interests will be done, facts or no facts.

Dost-mittar

People are now going to accuse you of being an RSS sympathizer. For me the conclusion must have already been reached.

BJP has primarily been a Hindu party, with some, very few, Muslims in it. It isn`t the ideal party to represent India. But I have noticed a pathological pattern on this site:

Paint all of BJP as the party of Nazis, RSS as full of Hitlers. Then claim that Pakistani parties are better and more secular (more secular in a nation that sees itself as only for Muslims). If anybody disagrees with your analysis, throw Gujrat in his or her face, blame it all on whole of BJP.

I am not sure this kind of conversation between Indians and Pakistanis helps. However, there are people in India who have a strong vested interest in using the tag of Hitler when speaking of BJP. Marxists, among others, are one such people.

In a democracy, between different parties vying for political support inside India, that may even be an understandable tactic. But does it help when the same tactic is adopted when conversation turns to Indo - Pak relations and comaparisons? I don`t think so. In fact, it distorts our entire perceptions and corrupts the whole dialogue. Yet whatever serves people`s vested interests will be done, facts or no facts.

RE: Sadna

``the issue is much bigger than can be safely left to intercommunity outreach among ordinary citizens alone.``

Of course. The problems are much bigger and more acute than in the US. Intercommunity outreach alone cannot solve those problems. But intercommunity outreach in the form of efforts to allay genuine concerns, beginning with the acknowledgement of objective facts, is the only bedrock upon which durable good relations can be built.

Dost-mittar #83: Thanks for the info.

``Muslims were not, nor or they now at the bottom of the totem pole. That place still belongs to the dalits.``

My reference is somewhat abstract. When I say Bengalis were at the bottom of the totem-pole and had little representation in Pakistani govt. organizations, like military, doesn`t mean they were are the very bottom, in comparison to every single community. In Pakistan, that position would belong to haris and peasants in feudal lands, who are generally Muslims, or to urban Christians. I am sure there were some Bengali communities, who were quite well off.

But the Bengalis were at the bottom in comparison, with West Pakistanis, as a whole. In detail, they were worse off than Punjabis, worse off than Pathans, worse off than urban Sindhis, Kashmiris (?). Though probably better off than rural Sindhis and Baluchis. But in a combined fashion, they were worse off than West Pakistanis. Similarly, from whatever I have read, the Indian Muslims are at the bottom in comparison to the Hindus, and other large combined combined communiities, as a whole. Of course, within Hindus, there are communities, that are worse off than Indian Muslims.

My reference is from Indian Muslim sources, like Muslim Gazzette and the statistics it provides. Some info from Pakistani friends who have visited India. And from my own interaction with hundreds of Indian engineers and students in the USA, out of which barely five have been Muslims (I don`t know how many were Dalits). I am not sure whether this is enough of a reference though.

``There is more to the BJP than their website (which I have only glanced at).``

I think it maybe a good idea for you to read the offiical BJP site, www.bjp.org. It also would be a good idea to go through the RSS website. As well as the VHP website. I am always surprised at how many Indians have not read these. It contains the official BJP history, philosophy, leadership, manifesto, and the official BJP`s write-ups on major issues.

This is right from the BJP`s mouth. It contains what they want the world to know about them. Much of it is actually very progressive and very constructive. Infact I agree with much of their economic view, and views on certain other issues.

However, there is a very clear Hinduvta, and anti-Muslim agenda. It is openly stated in the philosophy. I have quoted that many times on this site. It is not what the BJP has been able to implement currently. Probably because it is in a coalition. But one has to assume that if it gets full power, it will implement what it says in its own philosophy.

I think every Indian should go thru the BJP`s official website, word by word. That is what I have done. It is probably the best way to understand what it stands for.

The Congress, and what it did and did not do, I am not too informed about. It is quite possible I am giving it far more credit than it deserves. As you seem to be implying.

But the BJP`s philosophies I have read in some detial. And unless they are lying on thier site, and in their writings. their social agenda is quite dangerous for India; though their economic and some of the other agendas are quite good.

Ref Saminasha #36

[Tianamin Square was inexcusable, as was Stalin, and other ``marxist`` excesses. Period. Now I am looking for you capitalists to condemn Chile`s bloody history courtesy of Our Great Democracy, and a list that I believe even 12 head has grasped and pasted a million times. Can you account for the crimes that have been justified by capitalism? You may start with Robert Moses who did some lovely urban rearranging over here in NewYork.]

Let me state up front that I consider Henry Kissinger to be the greatest war criminal of the 20th century for his wars against Latin American and Southeast Asian nations. Le Duc Tho was correct in refusing to accept the Nobel Peace Prize for being clubbed together with Kissinger.

I happened to be living in Washington, DC when Orlando Letelier`s car was bombed and he was killed. The FBI dragged its feet and never bothered to find out who planted the bomb. The same thing went for the bombing of Arab Anti-Discrimination League offices.

Please believe me when I say I do not believe in nor practice selective outrage.

[My point is that political govts in Kerala, and the Netherlands have shown us that there are ways to address inequity. The kinds of critiques that Marxism provides may be used to reform our societies-and I dont see that as a bad thing.]

While the Marxist government in Kerala has done many good things, there were times when I felt a little less confrontation with the Central Government of India would have reduced the hardships faced by the Kerala population; in particular, the ruthless efficiency with which the Food Zones policy was enforced made sure that Kerala was living hand-to-mouth whereas there was a slight surplus of food in neighboring Tamil Nadu and Andhra. This of course played into the hands of the Marxist government because they got re-elected by blaming the Center.

I also object to the destruction of the enterpreneurial spirit of the Keralites. Most went to the Gulf for menial or blue-collar jobs. To this day, the highest literacy rate in India hasn`t translated into success in the IT field for Keralites. There are no IT companies worth their name in Kerala nor are the IT/Software Parks able to attract companies to fill up the space. Compare that to neighboring Andhra (Hyderabad), Karnataka (Bangalore) and Tamil Nadu (Chennai).

As to social programs, Tamil Nadu made education up to the 12th Standard free in the early 1970s; even private schools were ordered not to collect tuition from students but were re-imbursed by the state. (This is no longer the case because private schools today charge an arm and a leg). The state also funded a noon meal scheme in all the government schools so that the starving poor would have an incentive to send their children to the school at least for the sake of that meal.

I think democratic socialism as practiced in Western Europe (and a few states in India, though the scope in India is rather limited due to financial constraints) is a better alternative than mindless Marxist dogma.

Regards.