Punjabi Heroes that History Forgot

Kaurasuch...

Thanks for that post... that goes to show that this claim that Pakistan imposed `Arabic` script onto Punjabi is an outright lie.

Bhagat Singh`s quote proves that Urdu was the dominant language of Punjab in the 1920s... atleast. Again that takes the wind out of the sails of the argument that Pakistan imposed Urdu.

-YLH

Zakk,

My point about Fakir of Ipi was that he was first `figure` in Pakistan to honk the sharia and try and destabilize the Pakistan Government in the name of Islam. In his Islamic efforts he was supported by the Khudai Khidmatgars and the great Bacha Khan (who ironically is held to be a great secularist by some of our Indian friends and some of our misled Pakistani friends like NHK)

Wali Khan s/o Bacha Khan, another great `ethnic` leader was part of the `Nizam-e-Mustafa` which destablized yet another government of Pakistan in the name of Islam. He also stood consistently against all efforts to outlaw Honor killing in NWFP .. Historically the ethnic forces in NWFP have coopted religion... Wali Khan had helped Mufti Mahmood create the first Mullah Government in NWFP.

I am not aware of MMA`s efforts to `Urdufy` NWFP... I don`t see that to be the case and I have followed the politics there closely. Maybe Jamaat e Islami might try to do that being a more of an Urban party, but MMA in NWFP is dominated by Jamiat-e-Ulema who have stuck to their historic role ... they are religious fanatics in cahoots with the Pushtoon Nationalists as at the time of partition, against a national center. Durani remains a committed Pushtoon and in many of his interviews he used the vocabulary of Wali Khan to justify the imposition of Purdah ... calling it Pushtoonwelle tradition.

-YLH

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Dost-mittar #144: “And one of the main reasons why Canada is unique is its French fact. Take Quebec away and all we have distinct is our medicare.”

Wherever I go, and whatever business area I get into, I try hard to learn as much about it, as quickly as I can. Rest assured, Canada has a lot more going for it than medicare (or Quebec). I say this as someone who perhaps has a better view of judging Canadian society than you do. You obviously know a lot more about Canada than I do. But I can compare it to two different societies: USA, South Asia. And that too at a contemporary level. A US passport is the most coveted document in the world. One does not voluntarily give it away, without doing ample research. I could move back to a very comfortable lifestyle in the USA, today, in a heartbeat. Yet I do not want to.

My only fear is that, Canada, due to economic threats from the USA, will start following US foreign policy initiatives (much against Canadian tradition). That would be quite unfortunate.

“Your observations about Canada are too simplistic. We can discuss details some other time.”

I am still learning about Canada. Obviously I cannot pick up one hundred and fifty years of history in two years. And, my posts have been accused of being too long, already. Hence I have to keep things simplistic.

My point wasn’t that French should or should not be a national language in Canada. My point was that it is always simpler to have one national language. And the countries that have two or more always face more problems than those that naturally have one. Canada falls into this category. Bilingualism may add to the cultural diversity and mosaic, but it makes things more difficult at the administrative level. And I am sure you are well aware of the problems it causes. I have noticed that there is a distinct feeling amongst many English speaking Canadians that Quebec is getting away with murder, by threatening independence. One can see it all the time in debates on TV, especially from the representatives from the Western provinces. In fact, 17% of Albertans want to separate from Canada now, due to what they see as Canada’s partial tilt towards Quebec.

Also, Quebec has some strangely, almost racist laws. All large signs have to have French as the prominent language; otherwise the police come and knock on your business’ door. Our business wanted to open up a sales office there. They told us that all the insurance data of our Quebec clients would have to be physically stored in Quebec data centres. While our data centre was in Toronto. So we would need two data centres now for no reason. Things of that sort.

Additionally, Canadian demographics are changing. 25% of Canada’s current population was born outside Canada. 52% of Torontonians are immigrants. Each year between 200k and 300k immigrants enter Canada legally. The increase in Canada’s total population of 30 million, is now only through immigration. So Canada’s population is increasing 1% per year (approximately) through immigration. Out of these, most immigrant are Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese speaking) or South Asian (Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi etc.) speaking. Eventually, I think, Chinese speaking and (maybe) Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi speaking individuals will outnumber French speaking individuals.

Quebec has a population of 7 million. Out of which 6.5 million speak French. There are around 18 million Canadians who speak English as their first language. This leaves about 6 million who speak some other language as their first language. Hence the number of, “allophones” is equal (now maybe greater) to the number of native French speakers in Canada, already. Out of these 6 million non-French/non-English speakers, around 1 million speak Chinese. And the numbers from South Asia should reach 1 million in the next years as well. 20% of the new immigrants coming in are Chinese. This means, each year 20k to 30k Chinese are being added to the population, through immigration and probably a higher number through births. While most of the French-speaking new immigrants speak Arabic or some African language as their first language, i.e. they are not from French speaking European countries.

So after a few decades, Chinese will probably outnumber French speakers (many of whom will actually be Arabic speakers). And South Asian speakers will be chasing them in large numbers also. Canada will eventually end up having a bunch of national languages, if multi-lingual national languages are supported. Govt. jobs will require people who are multi-lingual and not just bilingual. Even now, to get really ahead in politics, one has to be bilingual. If Chinese etc. are not supported, then those knowing French will always have an advantage over those knowing Chinese, even if their numbers are the same.

The USA may, in a few decades, face the same problem with Spanish. California (where I lived) now has Hispanics as its majority population. I believe they just crossed Caucasians with more than 33% of the population. They have been experimenting with dual language (and separate language) schools for kids. Eventually, if they keep going down this bilingual path, they will face the same issues that Canada is facing with Quebec. It is good to call that historical multiculturism, but if it is adapted at the national level, it causes a lot of problems. Specially when the number of Chinese and South Asians reaches that of the French, or the number of Hispanics start outnumbering the English speakers in certain states.

#153 Urstruly

Completely Agreed... and that is why Islam should be separated from the state. After all in your own words the Objectives Resolution as enacted by first PCA was the embodiment of the will of the people.

-YLH

Tehmed32, Ironman, Punjabizulu

So another union of Jallandaries building up here !

Incidently, Jallandries have been very well represented in Pakistani Armed Forces & Bureacracy.

Farooq Feroze (Joints Chief), Javed Burki and their entire clan, including many in military & civil services, are from Jallandar.

Temed32 # 138

(Panjabis are not a ``race`` of any kind. . They are simply what their names say they are: People of the Five Rivers (Panj - Ab).... And the wide variation in panjabi dialects, traditional tribal affiliations, even physical characteristics, is testament to this.)

If we speak the same language - have been grazing goats & buffalows along the same riverbeds for centuries - lived in the same Kutcha village houses with one dirty drain flowing through the main boulevard - used Charka & Dhol & plough as our household applinces - put red chillies on our roof tops to dry - used white chaddar & pugree as our wardrobe - used ox to get us cool water out of the well - and women bathed on the rivulets with Charpai as their partition - then we have done enough mischief togather for a very very long time to claim a mutual kinship.

As for dialect, dialect in South Asia changes after every 50 miles - including vocabulary. In Sargodha, within 5o miles radius, you have a Kot Momin dialect, a Bhera dialect, a Jhawarian dialect, a Kot Bhai Khan dialect - also their own additional words, nuances, gestures and so on.

In lahore, within the same city, Bhaattee dialect is different than Ichra, or Aray Bazaaar.

But it is all Punjabi - they all treat Waris & Bulleh as their poets.

But Agana, the anthropolgist, can give you a more authentic answer.

ironman #148. Yes, we are originally from jallunder. How about you?

YLH: read your letter in the TFT btw,....

I am curious what was Wali Khans role in the senate? Durrani`s family fought for the Faqir of ipi, against the British..and he was closely associated with the Khudai Khidmatgar tehrik in his youth. Also My understanding of the Tabligh movement among Pashtuns is they have a preference for Urdu over Pashto. Case in point the MMA`s recent push for the Udrufication of NWFP. Despite being a heavily Pashtun Party most of the MMA compnents have consistently opposed ethnic languages.

Did Pakistan really impose `Urdu` on Punjab....


Here is waht shaheed Bhagat Singh said in the early 1930s ... Note Urdu was the dominant language iof Punjab at that time... Will Sameerjb now please stop accusing Pakistan needlessly?


``It will not be important here to deal with all the languages one by one. First of all, we shall consider the Muslims view. They are staunch supporters of Urdu. At the present time, this language is dominant in Punjab. This is also the language of the court. Then some Muslims say that Urdu scripts saves space. This may be quite right, but the most important question before us at this juncture is to make India a unified nation, but this cannot be done all at once``


-YLH

Mantolives

Although zia had no lawful authority to impose such change, yet accademically speaking the omission of word ``freely`` from Objective Resolution is correct and consistent with the Islamic Law.

Malangbaba

Your post about Shaheed Bhagat Singh`s essay ... shows one thing :

Gurmukhi Script was not in usage for Punjabi in the 1920s....

The question is if there was no Gurmukhi script .... what was the script ? The answer lies in Bhagat Singh`s own last letter... it was in Punjabi written in Arabic script. This I pointed out in an earlier post. And the `Punjabi Nationalists` on these boards have been accusing Pakistan of depriving Punjabi of its script for ages.

This is just goes to show that Pakistan is an easy target for everyone who wants to vent his or her frustration.

Urstruly,

I just wanna point out that Cowasjee doesn`t have anything against Objectives resolution... He objects to the omission of the word `freely` which was a glaring omission made by the dictator Zia.

I am the one who is against the Objectives Resolution... and I think we have discussed why on another board.

-YLH

Ok one thing I don`t understand is if Sameerjb is right in his conclusions... why did Faiz a Poet from Lahore the heart of Punjab write in Urdu even before partition? Why is Khuswant Singh, an Indian Sikh from Hadali still an avid Urdu fan? Why did he pick up Urdu at Government College Lahore? I have met many Punjabis from prepartition era... and they all speak perfect Urdu and Punjabi.

Educated Urbanites were always speaking Urdu... and I think Sameerjb has just gone with his irrational hatred for Urdu... which is sad because he is usually the most reasonable person on chowk.

People I think we don`t need to accuse Pakistan of everything.... there was once a chap on Chowk.. Rehan Hassan Ansari aka Chursi... who accused the Pakistani state of causing the demise of Urdu because of the exodus of the Hindu middle class from Lahore which spoke Urdu... infact that was his constant bone of contention. And now incomes Sameerjb ... not that I am in anyway comparing him to the chursi... and JB sahib is claiming that Pakistan has imposed Urdu on the people and destroyed the regional languages... ironically as he claims because of the TNT (which as far as I can see is a critique of or counter to one nation theory and in no way does it close the possiblity of a multination theory) ....

So will Sameerjb, who is respectable to me , and Rehan Hassan Ansari who is really a chursi ... please decide amongst themselves which one is it? So that we ` TNTists` and `Urdu fascists` who are `urdu oppressors` at the same time ... can come up with an egffective response.

Here is a post I wrote two days ago which didn`t go through.


Dear Sameerjb,

I generally tend to agree with you in almost everyting... but I think your historical analysis in this matter is seriously flawed (readmy previous posts) and deliberately concocted due to your own dislike for the Urdu language. No matter how you put it ... the Punjabi mullah speaks in Punjabi .. and the NWFP Mullah uses Pushto... the ethnic forces in these areas have usually coopted the religious sentiment.

Historically when Fakir of Ipi who wanted to over throw the government of Pakistan and establish Sharia rule...( he was pushto speaking), was supported by such great `ethnic` leaders like Abdul Ghaffar Khan. Similarly these fellows the MMA are strictly ethnically oriented... (MMA CM Durrani`s first speech paid tribute to the brave pushtun nation, and frontier gandhi... while it completely ignored all of the founding fathers)
Mufti Mahmood, and his son.. the old deobandi ulema from JUH... those sharia honking ulema are not exactly urdu speaking.

Meanwhile writers like Manto, Quratulain, PremChand, and poets like Faiz and Iqbal all wrote in Urdu... Similarly Khushwant Singh, who is after all a Pujabi sikh from Hadali... is a big fan of Urdu and its poetry... are all these Islamic fundamentalists?

Urdu was the lingua franca of UP Muslims... yes... but it was also the lingua franca of what the Muslim middle class, and ICP officers all over South Asia... and let us not forget that while Z A Bhutto made Sindhi the provincial language he wasa also the peson who took this obsession with Urdu being the national laguage to the next level... and practically tried to implement in offices... Pakistan was ready to give language provincial status since 1947... Bengalis were allowed and promised Bengali as the Provincial language ofEast Bengal .. and they got it... so it is not like languages are being oppressed... perhaps you need to check out this New PTV channel called `National`... it is totally in local languages with Urdu subtitles.


In my last post I cautioned against this unnecessary debate... it takes away from the real progress... but it seems that even you, as reasonable and rational you are, are ready to raise a useless issue like this one ... believe me of all the creatures in Pakistan... Punjabi language and culture are the least endangered... let us not keeping screwing Pakistan in the arse, just because we want to sound all cultural and progressive.


Can you imagine for example the issue of progress of women under these `ethnic` cultures... ? Hints:`` Karo Kari, Pushtunwele , Honor killing, Wali Khan`s role in the senate, slavery and bondage in interior sindh``

Despite what ills you see... it is a national culture... not ethnic cultures... that will stop the rot..

#146 by tahmed32,

``...last september my brother and his wife actually visited our ancestral village in jallunder...``

Oye tauheed-uh! I hope your assi tussi pepul came in prappar visa-shisa oye!...addhar-waij instead of jallander it will be chal-andar ;)


But seriously speaking...apart from this panju accent and that...someone should also shed light on hep panju-speak. (I heard Imran khan say that he was from L`haw).

You from J`laandhuh, right?!

Nazar: Thank you for your kind remark on my pathetically written post #129. I do not think that my plea is 100% well understood. Personally, I could understand the conversational Punjabi, but never in my life have I ever spoken Punjabi. There are a few very sweet words and they sound very well when uttered by those who are fluent. Constructing a few phrases here and there and using them for flavor is one thing, but being fluent is a completely different thing. I do not want to get into the emotional aspect here. All those who are fluent will certainly have a special attachment with the language even they may not know the sur paon of both the poetry and folk wisdom. I am not ready to buy into their prowess in the nuances of Punjabi Poetry. They may have been able to express their tRueeeeeee sentiments, highs and lows, piety and sinfulness in Punjabi, but to me that means nothing. I do not see myself even making an effort to get into the conversational part. And, with due respect to all, I am not even interested in looking into that. What I am interested in is the point that I have been making a lot of fuss about. And, I like to roar on that point and I will always chant that mantra. So, that`s my 10 cents.

Pony Taile Walae Romair: Sometimes your posts really make me smile. It seems that you are very talkative :) I have rarely come across a guy with a pony tail who likes to write the details of each and everything. It`s kind of sweet but it makes me think that you can easily pass for my long lost twin sister. Just kidding :):)

On a slightly serious note: Since you have moved to Canada, each and every post of yours has some nukta cheeni on American Life-Style. Out of curiosity, were you forced to wear a pony tail by your colleagues at work or was it a personal decision? I personally do not believe in wearing Shalwar Qameez in winters unless there is a special occasion. I am very happy and content in my 3/4 long/warm skirts and tight turtle neck wrapped in a pretty shawl. My dress down would rather be my moti-sweat-shirt with a topi, stirrups and running shoes. Sadly enough, that`s not acceptable in my professional surroundings even on Fridays (tears...). I think in order to achieve my dress down mode, I will have to work for myself. That`s inshallah the next project! During each lunch-break, run or walk or jog for at least an hour. As the poet says, ~Barae` Niklae Maerae` Ar`maan Laiken Phir Bhee Kum Niklae`.

On a relatively serious note: I am not saying that our medium of instruction should`ve been Punjabi. I am also not saying that we should have been exposed to Punjabi Poetry first and then anything else. I am saying that we should have been exposed to all the poetical works of the Punjabi Poets just like we were forced to ratto-fy the life history of over 20 damn Urdu Poets for the FSc exam and learn about the illusive bird, known as ``cucko-oooooo`` from the eyes of Wordsworth. My apologies to the late ones;but in FSc. it was criminal to include 20 plus damn poets` life histories. It was easier to memorize the chemistry formulae or solve the most compex equations in an exam than to remember who fell in love with whom at what age and what stage and came up with what verse to share his dastanae` gham with the world.

On a very different note: Interestingly in the past few years, all my male cousins who have grown up in Pakistan have gotten married to malaysian, korean, and thai women. Obviously, to expect them to teach their kids any Punjabi or Urdu would be a far cry. Majority of my close female friends who have Pakistani roots have married american men. And I am definite that the women will teach their children the language they are comfortable with.
So, if I took the same route and married a blend that I really like - traditional german irish then my love and fascination for Punjabi Poetry will die with me unless I introduced my spouse to the fascinating details of the Punj Pir from Heer - Waris Shah. That`s another exciting project. Too many things to do in such a tight scheduled life. But as they say,
~Chala Jaataa Hoon Hanstaa Khaeltaa Maujae` Havadus Main
Agar Asaaneeyaa`n Hoan Zindagi Dushva`r Ho Jayae.`

Rest Later,