Punjabi Heroes that History Forgot

sadna#128:
Good post.

sameerJB:
While I fully agree with you re. the importance of teaching panjabi in schools, I differ with you wrt the blame game. The primary blame belongs to us, educated panjabis whose attitude towards their language is best expressed by hamidm. And there is no dearth of hamidms in either Pakistan or India who also have expressions similar to goz-e-khar for their languge. And while panjabi did get the short end of the stick due to the communalisation of language (hindi-hindu, urdu-muslim, gurmukhi-sikh), the low self-esteem is older than that, after all, who prevented Ranjit Singh from using Panjabi as the language of his durbaar. Even his chronicler, a hindu, wrote everything in farsi.
At the time of the partition, in both panjabs, one spoke panjabi at home, wrote in urdu script and spoke urdu when one wanted to be formal and english to impress others. At the time of the hindi-panjabi fights in India, the biggest protaganist of hindi -Partap - and that of panjabi - Parbhat - were both published in Urdu. I used to go to the panjabi kavi darbars as a kid and even the sikh poets (incidentally there were many more hindu than sikh panjabi poets at those events!) - Teja Singh Saabar and Inder Singh Tulsi - used to read from right to left, i.e., urdu script.
Nobody - not govt., not mulla, not bahman - told panjabi muslims or hindus to raise their children in urdu or hindi. And that`s where the root of the problem is. Urdu was the first language learnt by children since the start of the school education in panjab but it was never the first language learnt by the baby. Panjabi started to lose its stature because panjabis bought into the idea that theirs was an uncouth, crude, paindoo language, good only for use in street fights. On the other hand, urdu/hindi was viewed as the language of good manners and mothers started speaking to the baby in urdu rather than their mother tongue. Maybe, the reversal can be brought about only through introducing panjabi in schools, but let`s not forget that the source of the problem is our low respect for our language!
..And once again, sikhs can take credit for the revival of panjabi not only in East but also in West Panjab. I think that panjabi was almost dead in Pakistan until everyone`s favourite villain, Zia, decided to support the Khalistan movement and use the panjabi card to emphasise the affinity between the sikhs of Indian panjab and muslims of Pakistani panjab. Little did he know that it might result in a genuine discovery of the love of their linguistic roots among panjabis in Pakistanis. Another case of unintended consequences!

It`s interesting that Chowk has both Nazar`s and Godot`s articles on the same page at the same time. The following is an open and probably brutal assessment. The term brutal can be relative depending on the sensitivity of the reader. The intent is not to hurt anyone, but the intent is to spell out a few observations...

1. A country like Pakistan based on its history and geography cannot and should not let go of its regional identities.

2. The regional identities ought to have strength among their respective verticals in order to formulate a decent and balanced impression overall. In less convoluted words, I would say that whatever cultural pride each province has, if any, that should be highlighted. And, the natives ought to know the basics. But aside from the basics, facts like who the saints and sinners were from Punjab, there is a lot of poetical wisdom that ought to be communicated via the educational institutions vs. relating what the Red Riding Hood said to the conniving grandma-cum-wolf or the conversation of father bear, mother bear with baby bear in the story of Goldilocks. Well, someone else can come forth and say that he`d rather take pride in the lassi that is served in some joint in the inner city of Lahore or the special bataer/teetar/chiryaa aside from kababs that are offered at the old Allah Rakha Tikka Shop on GT Road outside of the main city of Gujranwala. These serve only as the icing on the cake. What is the cake itself?

What is more important ? To know how the Jats walk and talk or how the Arain`s comb their hair or how the Rajputs dress up or how the Kakae Zais speak(Al-Amaan-Al Hafeez!!! ) or how the Kashmiri Men happen to be slightly brazen or how stubborn/sakht are the ones from the Potohari belt...........Or it is more important to have Puran Bhagat included at the academic level in schools.

Why was it even necessary to expose my innocent mind at the age of 13-14 to both Mir`s and Ghalib`s gham`o`andoh ? And, why should have it mattered if Wordsworth died talking to an invisible cuckoo or Samuel Taylor Coleridge ran away as a kid humming ``The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner`` ? In my understanding it was important to give my mind an exposure and some food for thought in both languages. So, here is the dilemma: Does Punjabi offer any such poetry that should be known to all and sundry? If there was nothing written in Punjabi that was of significance then it is fine not to make any fuss about anything. But if there was a folk-lore that addressed various facets of life: social issues, spiritual revelations, human sacrifice, wisdom, true love, male-female relationships in a purer form (in other words, you did not have to learn the nuances of true love from Mrs. Doubt Fire or The Indecent Proposal) then it`s a shame that we were NOT taught that in our academic curriculum. I would not have minded reading it in English at that time with all the Punjabi Excerpts to have the awareness, but it`s damn ironic and shameful that was not part of our educational curriculum. We were left in lurch to figure out the unknown myth!

Just acknowledging that Punjabi is spoken right and left amongst the educated ones in the current day and age .... and oh, so much so that even Urdu Speaking/Muhajirs speak the language better than some born and bred Punjabis - is a very lame argument! Exchanging pleasantries/nastiness in Punjabi is one thing; promoting and communicating the nuances of both the prose and poetry is another. Appreciating the beautiful sayings and verses of Waris Shah or Bulleh Shah is completely different from taking pride in your linguistic prowess.

3. The thought about Sindhi in reference to the stance of Punjabi is an interesting shot. It also serves as an excellent example on what`s going on in Sindh by giving Sindhi the status it deserved.

4. Rest Later...

Sadna # 128

(I agree with those who say that if children are not given a minimum reasonable sense of their local history, arts, literature and language to shape their world view, the vacuum in their sense of identity may be filled with undesirable artificial constructs later in life)

Completely with you on this score.

nazarhayatkhan

Just want to add, language is not just for science or economics, its tied to a people`s world view, their customs, their arts. Even the highly literate Japanese take pride in their language, traditions and history while living in an industrialized and consumeristic society, because thats fundamental to being Japanese.


I agree with those who say that if children are not given a minimum reasonable sense of their local history, arts, literature and language to shape their world view, the vacuum in their sense of identity may be filled with undesirable artificial constructs later in life. As literacy rates increase, this problem can assume `demographic` proportions (irrespective of the state of the economy).

In India, the language issue is politicised. Already linked inextricably to local religious traditions, local history, and local art forms, it is now seen rightly or wrongly as a vehicle for any group`s aspirations and identity.

The state recognition of a language is seen as a tool for increasing participation of people speaking that language in the democratization/modernization process. Denying recognition to a language is seen as equivalent to blocking their participation, wiping out their political/social identity, and imposing a forced identity on them.

Urdu and Punjabi in India, though now officially recognised, are/were examples of such denial, meant explicitly to suppress identity-related mobilisation in the aftermath of Partition.

Urstruly #112: I don`t think you have answered the question.

In your previous reply, you stated the following, ``The reason is that the senate has a sovereignty over National Assembly, so it can by pass such an impasse at the NA.``

The point I had made was that Punjab, by itself can veto any law, even if the other three provinces agree on it. While none of the other three provinces can veto a law by themselves. Hence Punjab, obviously holds veto authority over the rest of the country.

You are trying to explain the argument that Punjab, by itself cannot pass a law either. That is true, and accepted. That was never in doubt. However, you have still not explained how the other three provinces, even if they are combined, can get a law past Punjab.

The answer you have provided is, ``Theoretically, yes Punjab dominates the NA, so no bill should pass unless Punjab approves of it.``

This is not only theoretically true, it is practically true also. The remaining argument you have provided, does not counter it in any way. According to the 73 Constitution (not due to the Constitution, though, but due to the population of Punjab), under the current population ratios, not a single bill can pass in Pakistan, unless Punjab approves of it - theoretically and practically. While no other province enjoys that distinction.

``Now lets assume a hypothetical scenario that three provinces gang up against Punjab in NA, the chances are that the bill will be approved in NA by Punjabi majority vote but then in senate it will be shot down because each province has equal say. That is the system of checks and balances.``

This statement has a group of errors. Once again, the argument I was making was not that the three provinces couldn`t get together to shoot down a bill by Punjab. They obviously can. The argument was that Punjab, just by itself, could shoot down any bill three provinces agree on. Which it can. Hence Punjab, by itself, holds veto power.

Also, there are two different types of legislations in Pakistan. Each has different rules for being passed.

And I believe the National Assembly needs a two-third majority to pass a bill. Not a simple majority, as you are suggesting. Simple majorities are only need to appoint the Prime Minister. So Punjab alone could not pass a bill, even through the NA. It would need the support of another province. So it is accepted that Punjab alone cannot pass a bill (even in the NA, what to talk of Senate). Once again, the argument was that Punjab can by itself stop the passing of a bill, even if the other three provinces approve it.

Also, I believe (not sure) the bill has to go to the NA first. It cannot go to either the Senate or NA first. In addition, the law making is heavily in favor of the NA. If the Senate disallows a bill, it goes back to the NA, and the NA can once again pass it and send it straight to the President (or something similar).

Urstruly #113: ``Yes Bhutto did amend the constitution before its ink was dry but we must keep the perspective in mind. At the time Bhutto made changes in the constitution, it was in the process of evolving. he made changes as per the procedure prescribed by the constitution itself.``

You are, obviously correct on the military violating the Constiutiton. However, you are incorrect on Bhutto not violating it.

Bhutto did not change the Constitution, ``as per the procedure prescribed by the constitution itself.`` He violated it. I will let Cowasjee explain it, since he does such a better job than I ever could. And he was there watching it.

``This Constitution promulgated on August 14, 1973, had a life of four, repeat four long hours. It was passed, not unanimously, but by consensus by the many members who believed that as it guaranteed fundamental rights it was better than no constitution at all - and certainly better than martial law. None dissented. The few who were not happy with it abstained.

Before the ink was dry, within four hours of its promulgation, the people of Pakistan were deprived of their constitutionally guaranteed fundamental rights through a Gazette Notification issued by the maker of the Constitution, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Fundamental rights having been rendered non-justiciable, he then had all his political opponents arrested. They were held in various jails until released by Ziaul Haq four years later.

Not satisfied with the notification, Bhutto had his Constitution amended seven times between its promulgation on August 14, 1973, and July 5, 1977, the date of his fall from grace.

An amendment of a constitution is an extraordinary measure necessitating a great deal of deliberation on the part of the ruling party, consultation with the opposition, and a careful objective study of public opinion on the subject. Its passage through the legislature must be deliberately regulated to ensure full discussion, to provide ample opportunity for criticism.

According to the rules of procedure which govern parliamentary procedure under the 1973 Constitution, a bill, other than a finance bill, on its introduction in the house must be referred to the relevant standing committee, unless the requirements of the rules have been dispensed with by the House through a motion of the relevant member. The standing committee is asked to present its report within 30 days. When this is received, copies of the bill (and any changes recommended by the committee) are to be supplied to each member within seven days. Two clear days must then elapse before the bill can be sent down for consideration.

These rules were suspended by Bhutto for the passage of the Second, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Amendment Bills. The First Amendment Bill was introduced in the house on April 15, 1974. The standing committee presented its report the next day and within a week it was passed leaving no time for debate.

The Third Amendment Bill was introduced on February 11 1975, the required report was presented and the bill passed the next day.`` (http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20021013.htm)

dullabhatti,

...... there is nothing wrong with kids speaking their ``mother`` tongue - whatever the heck it means - as long as they don`t do it at their father`s expense ......... i don`t know if you have noticed, but as people move into the cities they tend to marry outside their own ethnic group and produce mongrels who don`t have a pedigree and don`t exhibit affiliation to any particular language............ what are they supposed to speak?...... why should a pathan-punjabi be forced to attend punjabi-medium schools just because he lives in the punjab?............ take my family for example: we have one brother-in-law who is from bahawalpur and saraiki speaking, another is of unkown origin but was born in kabul and speaks dari and pushtu, another claims to be a kashmiri but sounds suspiciously like a lahori and acts like an uncouth mahja from bhati gate, there is a sister-in-law who looks like a pathan and has the last name khan but whose family moved from delhi and who scares us all with her salees urdu and affected mannerisms (we call her hindustani or mutterwi behind her back), another sister-in-law who is some kind of sheikh and who speaks urdu with a terrible punjabi accent .............. and the kids, all twenty seven of them are a motley crew of mongrels ............. so what are they supposed to speak? ..............life was much simpler when everyone married their first cousin..........

............ other than the arains, who are intent on inbreeding untill they grow antlers, most urban punjabis are not too hung up on marrying within their language group .......... even the nose-in-the-air karachites, biharis and marwaris, inspite of their pretensions are marrying punjabis and pathans as long as he has an mba from lums or she looks like some bollywood bimbo .............``larka punjabi hai, per aadatain bilqul hamari jaise hain!``..........``larki hai to hindustani, laiken hum panjabion jaisee khulay dil ke hai!``.............and their offspring don`t, and shouldn`t, give a hoot and go about speaking pigeon urdu that shocks nani ama .............``tu kaise bol rah hai, hum ney aisa to nahin kaha tha``........aw, shut up!......... what is with this hum and tu business?

............ the only people who are hung up on punjabi, or other regional languages, are those who are still squatting in the fields before sunrise, or those city intellectuals who dream of an idyllic life sitting under the bunyan tree listening to the village idiot wailing about heer being taken away in her doli ........good riddance!

............ so, i think it is much ado about nothing .......... all i know is that it is nice to be able to go to kissa khwani bazaar in peshawar and be able to talk to the shop keepers without an interpreter ......... of course it is even better if you know a little pukhto and can understand what those thieves are actually saying about you .......... as for getting a good deal on beadon road is concerned, you don`t have to know teth punjabi, all you need to know are the few choice cuss words and be able to say them with the proper accent and with passion.............as far as i know there is not much left in punjabi if you take out the b word........ sorry, p word ............it is b in urdu ..........

Dulla Bhatti, SameerJB, Dost-Mitter, Tehmid32, Hamidm2, Romair

This is a good debate.

Everyone has a common foot hold in Punjab. Dulla Bhatti is not a Sikh, Dost-Mitter is not a Hindu and we are not the typical Pakistanis. This is what culture (+ language) does to the significance of religion in society. (Romair - Pl note).

Strong culture roots out the dogma but leaves the spiritual aspect intact. Cultures combine humans - Dogmas divide humans. No one is quoting any holy scripture or divine law here - just plain old logic, reason or opinion.


SameerJB`s points on Urdu`s link with religion - and its example in Sindh are really interesting. I know that when a Mulla is speaking in Urdu, he is very serious, very official and he means business. The moment he breaks into Punjabi, he suddenly relaxes, cracks jokes (even vulger!) and becomes an everyday person. Have you noticed that it is much easier & effective to fend off a Mulla in Punjabi rather than Urdu? (Post #109 is good)

The village Maulvi, who does not have the benefit of higher education at Madressa, has a different and a more user-friendly concept of religion. His Khutba is in Punjabi - he does not have too many facts & figures - he treats religion as a concotion fairy tales - somewhere, some place & at some time - his audience also accepts his version with a pinch of salt.

Tehmed Sahib & Hamidm Sahib have different viewpoints on language. They are welcome to it. In fact, Punjabi`s at large are not worked up on this issue to an extent to have Punjabi in classes any time soon. But this issue requires a serious consideration.

Ironman # 121

Ha Ha Ha

I used to officially correspond with an ICAO official in Montreol. Once I picked up phone and talked to him. He sounded 100% Canadian but his name sounded a bit Indian. I asked him if he was Indian. He said he was a Punjabi Sikh & then broke into ``teth`` Punjabi - started laughing, cracking jokes - and since than I can treat him as if he is sitting in the next room.

SameerJB

I have followed your posts which are have been very educative and informative. I agree with your philosophy and observations on the subject.

In short, a few Beers & a few verses of Bulleh shah, and all dogmas fly off - leaving only humanism, tolerance and kinship behind.

hamidm and others,

All this punjabi talk reminds me of a movie I saw recently - `The Mystic Masseur` (made from Naipaul`s novel of the same name).

The story is woven around Indian settlers in Trinidad. Everyone fit their roles well...except Om puri. His punjabi accented english stuck out a mile. (Whutt ju dooo Ganesh-uh!)

Throughout the movie..he was simply dying to say an `oye` somewhere !!

>You have a point, but...is this bonhomie any more than skin deep?

You are using the wrong expression. Among these ``fraternal enemies`` (East & West Punjabis) there is still a strong recognition of commonality, which always amazes outsiders (like South Indians) when they see it first hand. [Likewise, I don`t think people from the former East & West Pakistans could ever easily laugh at each other`s jokes.]

ali_1 #117:

Breaking up Panjab solves nothing. Same area will have then 75 jats, AraiNs and rajputs senators. Saraiki a separate language or not is predominantly Panjabi speaking (30 percent Saraiki, 70 percent Panjabi). Just look at the list of MNAs from Bahawalpur, Bahawalnagar, Vehari, Arifwala, ChishtiaN, Borewala, Khanewal and other areas. Zia`s son even won seat from way down in Bahawalnagar based on AraiN baradri. Even in Potowari, Jhelum district has no interest with accent in between Panjabi and Potowari.

English is the necessity and not Urdu for progress and seeking job. Everybody in the cities is sending their kids to English medium schools these days. It is English that is killing Urdu and not Sindhi and Panjabi languages. They are regional languages and everybody outside Lahore and Islamabad speaks Panjabi in Panjab. Panjabi has not kept Indian Panjab backward than Hindi/ Urdu speaking Bihar and UP, why would it make Pakistani Panjab backward? There is nothing in Urdu than can be presented as advantage in real world. It is another regional language of Pakistan. It was communication language of the people before becoming national language and it will remain so, even if 5 languages are granted national languages status. People all of a sudden will not stop watching Hindi movies just because Panjabi is used as an additional medium of education at basic level in Panjab.

dullabhatti:
I agree with you and sadna that three-language formula is the way to go. I also think that english should get greater importance than the link language. This is what seems to be happening in India; even Lalu has finally started teaching english at an earlier grade in Bihar.
The name of the urdu paper may be Hind Samachar itself. Have the Mahasha papers Partap, Veer Bharat and Milap disappeared?

Dost: but being fair to Hamid bhai, there is no Punjabi paper of mention in Pakistan...many have been started but went down after few months. But that is not a cause but effect of the present language policy. If Urdu was not the only national and governmental language, would there be so many Urdu papers in Pakistan? Indian Punjab is almost purged of Urdu papers now because it is not taught or patronised by the Govt...which is regrettable.[the biggest organisation of Punjabi writers and artists - Punjabi Sahit Academy, Ludhiana demanded Urdu as optional subject for high schools from Punjab government last year and and if someone thinks I hate Urdu outrightly, I support academy`s above demand and I am the only one in my age group in my circle of friends and family who can read Urdu..though slowly] I think only Urdu paper left in Indian Punjab is Hind Samachaar group`s - forgetting its name now.
sau hath rassa siray te ganD...any language can be killed or popularised with modern education tools/system and governmental enforcement.

I agree with hamid in the sense that all languages except English and few others will be useless for business, education and science purposes. But I disagree that kill them all..it is not possible to do it either. Instead accept that fact and learn english as well as your mother language whatever it is.

school 1 to 5 yrs: Mother language and math, history, literature, science in mother language.

school 4 - onwards: Link language Urdu/Hindi as a subject

School 6 - onwards: English as a subject, Link language/mother language as medium of education determined at local level.

School 11 onwards: English only as subject and medium for science. Some non-science subjects can be taught in link language or mother language.

Treat link language as link language... not as mother of all languages. Why one needs to study link language for 12 years to communicate with someone in Balochistan or Orrisa(which I can`t even spell correctly:-)) or some other rural corner of the country when subject of communication is probably going to be as simple as asking for directions, ordering tea at dhaba or finding nearest liquor shop in case of hamid bhai.:-) In fact I say replace link language teaching with 2 weekly shows of Hindi/Urdu movies..kids are smart enough to figure out the rest...plus well made movies with Aishwariya or Madhuri...some serious ass shaking will act as a deterrent against fanaticism.

# 83 SameerJB

[``According to your scheme of things, everybody with grievinces against Panjab will be satisfied by one strike of pen calling Potowari and Saraiki separate languages. I wish it was as simple to please Pashtuns, Sindhis and Mohajirs. ``]

Saraiki and Pothowari are separate languages; Pushtuns and Sindhis et. al. will be ``pleased`` if new provinces of Pothowar and Multan are created out of the Punjab province. This should please Punjabi nationalists too since Punjabi Army will rightly be relabeled as Pothowari Army etc. No?