Founding Mothers

were all ladies when they these started working on indian, pakistan forming, please say you thank

yogiraj

Eid Mubarik...

Syed Ahmed,

Good! Looks like you finally decided to read something other than third grade history books. .

I am myself surprised.. that when someone like Maulana Mohd. Ali Jauhar wrote the draft constitution of Muslim League, how could one accuse the AIML of being feudal response to Congress`s land reforms... especially since Congress didn`t take about Land reofms till much later.

The politics of urban Muslim intelligentsia allowed the League some success in UP 1937... but being spurned by Congress woke the league upto the reality of Muslim Majority provinces... and Islamic symbolism as a mobilizing technique to counter Congress` religious allies like JUH... Sikandar-Jinnah pact was a watershed moment as far as league`s flirtaton with the feudals is concerned.

Therefore Pakistan needs to be interpreted in context of this history. This was what my article Muslim League`s Politics (1937-1947) was all about.

RE:Rafay Alam......

When Congress was established in 1885 - I dont beileve Dominion was an agenda - it was a natural outgrowth of tha Arya and Brahmo Samaj movements for social and cultural reform..... ( education reform , Banning of social practices such as sati etc etc ) MOst of the INdian founders such as Naroji ( a mentor of Jinnah), Surendernath banejee, W. BONerjee , Justice Ranade, and M.M Maloviya (sp?) had strong urban roots and very little to do with the feudal aristocracy..... Congress`s left wing bent began much after the first world war and the the success of the Bosheviks ..... ( and quite possibly in the late 20`s - early 30`) - the beginning of the depresson era - when Socialism was at the height of its popularity in Europe and England .....- One can contrast the politics of MOtilal and jawaharlal Nehru to notice the changing of the idelogical guard......

If you look at the Origins of teh MUslim League - the founders seem to be an even more ecletic Bunch, Navab Mohsin ul Mulk and Nawab Viqar ul MUlk - were both Aligarh academics - ( The title Nawab was a recognition from the Nizam), Maluana Zafar Ali Khan - a populist but improvished newspaper publisher from LAhore and protege of MOhsin ul Mulk, Maluana MOhd ALi Jauhar - another populist firebrand , and Hakim Ajmal Khan of Delhi -the founder of Jamia MIllia and of course their financial backer Nawab Saleemullah of Dacca.....and later joined by the Aga Khan.

Their main focus was to oppose the change of official second language from Urdu to HIndi which was in place across Northern India........and to safeguard Muslim interests against the rising tide of perceieved HIndu nationalism....Remember the British were toppling the apple cart in both Muslim and HIndu majority areas to maintain a healthy rivalry.

THe Muslim League`s feudal bias is a much later phenomenon that was itiatied by Mr JInnah as a ruse to garner support of Muslim leadership in the feudal states of what now constitute Pakistan and the princely states .... wheras the banner of Islam was used to garner the more populist vote in Bengal and Central India......( i believe that was a late 30`s phenomenon)

Manto,

This was a really a nice one. When every one (includes me) is challanging Islam / You.

I am the one who will openly call Pakistan my enemy. Provided the contex is right. Friend if contex is aok.

Honest disagreements (with you).

You do have your own country. Never ever that should that be an issue. Never try to answer / defend. You did. Pls buy a thick skin. Thanks

Yes we parted. Right or wrong. That is a fact. FACT. It is over and done with.

We MALES have historically, and even TODAY deal very dastardly with fair sex. Not only it is unfair, it is much, much more. We ALL are guilty. Hindoos and muslims. You put blame and get riled up only against M.

How to rectify should be a point of discussion. What should we do.

Yogiraj Patil

PS.... Eid Mubarak to all

Temporal,

Thanks for the tip. I`ll try and see if I can`t find something on the AIML`s founding documents.

Mantolives: You say that Congress was looking for Dominion self government. True. But they didn`t dream of the idea one fine day. They wanted representation before the Viceroy so that their interests could be protected. If what temporal has pointed me to is correct, these interests would, prima facie, seem to be their vast properties.

This is stuff which is definately between the lines. I haven`t come across it in any English writings in Pakistan. Which is why I found Dr. Mubarik Ali`s urdu essay on the subject quite illuminating.

Rafay

Was it Sughra Apa or Lady Hidayatullah?


Maybe to some brilliant scholars ‘relative obscurity and poverty’ means beggar woman… but to me it just meant that Sughra Apa was not living in opulent surroundings like the socialite wife of Hidayatullah…

Since Syed Ahmed is doing some cutting and pasting job…here is what I found on Nazaria-e-Pakistan foundation … While Sughra Hidayat Ullah (who was married to Sir Hidayatullah in 1919) was indeed present at the agitation, the woman I was talking about was also Sughra … she was known as Fatima Sughra begum … she was the ONE who hoisted the flag atop the secretariat. The nazaria Pakistan foundation makes that very clear.

Since Syed Ahmed’s research is limited to one website sadly…. There is no way he would know this.

http://www.nazariapak.info/ShowTopics.asp?TopicCode=14&CatCode=6

My mistake is simply not to write Sughra apa’s complete name which is Fatima Sughra …

Syed Ahmed’s favorite website is way off on facts… it has taken Sughra Apa’s picture and claimed that this is Lady Hidayatullah … http://www.storyofpakistan.com/person.asp?perid=P081 if you look at the picture she is holding the League flag… Sughra Apa’s picture was taken in 1947… meanwhile Lady Hidayatullah was born in 1904… Does the woman in the picture look like she is 43 years old?

It is a well known fact that Sughra Apa, and not Hidayatullah’s wife, hoisted the flag on the secretariat building….

I wonder who is altering facts to fit their agenda now?

Nothing riles me up more than an ignorant (note IGNORANT) distortion of History.

No wonder ‘all Pakistanis are laughing hysterically’ after reading half of syed ahmed’s posts… as per his own admission.

More ‘scholarly knowledge’ from Syed Ahmed:

One can’t argue with people like Syed Ahmed… it seems that his entire ‘research’ based on random searches on Google…Read ‘From Purdah to Parliament’ by Shaista Ikram Ullah… instead of wasting your time and my time with Pakistan Studies rhetoric….

Muhammad Ali Jauhar, Shaukat Ali, Syed Ameer Ali, Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, and Allama Iqbal are indeed very important to the awakening of the Muslim consciousness, but had you read the article, it was specifically related to those women who formed the part of the final push itself… those who were organized by the League… Bi Ama might have had a role to play in the non-cooperation movement of 1921.. but she was not part of the League agitation for Pakistan.

Your disrespect to Sughra Baji who is well known figure of Lahore is shameless … all because you read on the Story of Pakistan that it was Sughra Hidayatullah not sughra baji… to call her a beggar woman is just sad. She was an honorable women who lived a very honest life. Everyone knew her and respected her. If you look at her picture… she was no more than 20 years of age when she did that … She remained part of the league throughout life and she was NOT married Sir Hidayatullah. This is where your ‘website’ searches fail because I know many of these people personally. Show me one other ‘written’ account other than story of Pakistan which claims that. Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’… what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? The website is good for pictures… but not good for facts.


“Let us assume that I am wrong “

We are not assuming you are wrong… You are WRONG.

“- so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........”

It was not the constituent assembly you bumbling idiot… it was the civil secretariat of Lahore … the most famous event of that very famous time when the League women took up civil disobedience against Khizer Government…

I think it goes without saying that Sughra Baji’s famous heroic act in Lahore secretariat is much more important historically, than the drawing room musings of Sughra Hidayatullah or whatever. The event at Lahore secretariat captured the imagination of the masses, and galvanized them even further… The honorable Syed Afzal Hyder, the former law minister, constitutional lawyer, historian and Modernist Islamic scholar, who was a student worker of the league at the time still gets emotional about those events, when talking in his constitutional history class.

Think logically instead of just quoting off of ‘Story of Pakistan’… what would a wife of a politician from Karachi be doing in Lahore? The website is good for pictures… but not good for facts.



Are you the same character … the Paknews Washington bureau chief? Cuz I have heard he refused to publish Maleeha Lodhi’s interview once on Paknews.. because he felt she had plagiarized her PhD thesis at LSE… given your constant negativity, I am increasingly sure you are the same person.


Instead of accusing me of ‘altering’ facts… have some shame and be man enough to admit that you are just horribly wrong on all of this. Just because this article doesn’t seem to fit your ‘Islamist’ agenda… you are out to discredit me and my work.


-YLH

Ref ZahraJ #8

{SyedAhmed:

[All the women you mentioned stood on the shoulders of their fathers or brothers or Husbands… including the ones you listed .,….]

This was the punch line. Good Point.}

And those fathers and brothers were borne by women! SyedAhmed ignores that fact!

RE #24

Sigalph

I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..

RE #24

Sigalph

I stand corrected – she was indeed the niece of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy - not his sister …..

RE #24


Monsieur manto - I suggest you re-read history ....

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Mr Manto writes...

``For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it. ``

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BY your analogy - Allama Iqbal who died in 1938 had nothing to do with the Pakistan movement. Since the declaration was in 1940...... THis is akin to saying that Tilak and Gokhale had nothing to do with the Indian independence movement since they died prior to 1947 - This is warped logic.....

I suggest you alter your opinions to face facts - you tend to alter facts to suit opinion......

I think most Pakistanis would be laughing hysterically by now ................


MOhd ALi was one of the founders of the League - and was one of the earlier proponents of a nationhood for muslims along with fire brand hasrat Mohani - It was Iqbal who later provided the the physical realization of that idea....... MOhd ALi was a consistent proponent of the idea of a Muslim nationhood and attended the Round table conferences as the leagues representative -several times.and was part of its core leadership until his death in 1932.........According to most historians the genesis of the Pakistan movement started with Syed Ahmed Khan and the education of Muslims - unless you claim that Aligarh had no part in the creation of Pakistan.......and each successive generation created the infrastructure needed for successive generations to follow upon.....

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Manto writes .....

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The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.

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Any published account of that incident credits Mrs Sugra HIdayatullah with that deed - and not some poor beggar-woman that mom treated in the hospital.....

Let us assume that I am wrong - so a woman who once hoisted a flag over the constituent assembly deserves honorable mention - wheras one of the prominent leaders of the Muslim leagues women movement does deserve any mention at all... I would call that creative history..........if not revisionism.....

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Manto, our textbook scholar Syed Ahmed isn`t right on this one either

``The Brilliant scholar and writer Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) ,``

Shaista Suhrawardy Ikramullah was the daughter of Sir Hsssan Suhrawardy who was the brother of H S Suhrawardy. That would make her the neice of Premier Suhrawardy, not his sister.

What happens when you base your history on ‘3rd grade Pak History text books’:

Syed Ahmed’s ‘Facts’:

He writes:

“Abadi Begum: Secondly the history of the Pakistan women’s movement begins with “BI AMMA” –- mother of both Mohd Ali And Shaukat Ali Jauhar….( which any 3rd grade Pak history textbook will attest to)….. “

According to Syed Ahmed sahib… Bi Ama the mother of Mohammed Ali Jauhar, and Shuaukat Ali (NOT JAUHAR.. jauhar was not a last name) was involved in the Pakistan Movement. Bi Ama whose stories I have been reading all my life … has to her credit that she brought up to fine leaders who fiercely independent … but their involvement if any was in the Khilafat Movement and NOT the Pakistan Movement. For Syed Ahmed’s information (which is pathetically little) Mohammed Ali Jauhar passed away in 1932… and Shaukat Ali Passed away in 1938 late… Pakistan Movement in essence was not adopted by the league till 1940 and the Ali Brothers had nothing to do with it… I just don’t see a logical connection… except that the ‘third grade Pak History book ‘ says it.



The Great scholar Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Lady Sugra Hidayatullah - IS not an unknown – she was one of the more prominent leaders of the Sindh Muslim League ( also wife of Ghulam Hussain Hidyatullah) – first Governor of Sindh. “

Again Little Knowledge is dangerous…

The Sughra Begum I talk of was a young league activist from Lahore… she was NOT married to Hidayat Ullah… as the ‘story of Pakistan’ website claims… Sughra Begum lived in relative obscurity and poverty… and used to visit my mom at Mayo Hospital for check up till the early 1990s … she used to travel on a Wagon.


The Brilliant scholar and writer Syed Ahmed further writes:

”Dr. Shaista Ikramullah – was wife of of Ikrammullah ( First foreign secretary of Pakistan) – sister of Husain Shaheed Suhrawrdy ( first CM Bengal) , niece of Ghullam Hussain Hidayatullah ( Chief Justice of India and later Vice Presidcent of India – She was the first Muslim Phd in the subcontinent and the first lady to be represented in the constituent Assembly of Pakistan “


So what new information have you provided here … that I have already not given in the article?


”Begum Jahanara Shahnawaz – was also joined by her Sister Geta Ara Shahnawaz and brother Basheer Ahmed – all being the children of MIan Shafi… “

And this proves what? That she was not the force behind the struggle for women’s equality in Pakistan? That she was not an indomitable legislator? That she was selected by the Viceroy on the War council? Did she not stand up infront of even the Quaid-e-Azam himself if the need so required… was she not a fiercely independent woman?



”Begum Salma Tassaduque Hussain: was also the wife of a prominent Muslim Leaguer Mian Tassadaque Hussain. She was also teh convener of teh ALL Indian Muslim Girls conferences... “
So whats the new information here?


”Begum Viqar unnisa Noon - ( wife of Feroz Khan noon – PM of Pakistan) was actually a German/Austrian (??) who was actively involved in the league activities……. “

She was Austrian and a family friend, great grandmother of a high school buddy … but have I mentioned her in my list? Or are you blind?


But who can blame someone whose source is ‘third grade Pak History textbook’?

-YLH

Why did Pakiland turned out to be a pigsty then?

Dear Syed Ahmed

Pray tell what my strong ideological current is ?

You took one sentence, which you misinterpreted and you based your entire objection around it ... nothing in your original post questions any of my facts... your objection was a matter of perspective... in my opinion the contribution of the first two women in law making of our nation far greater than anyone else... that is why I hold their contribution to be independent of the men in their lives... I challenge you point out anything inaccurate about these women`s lives that I have presented here... I am telling history exactly the way it is... clearly ... its not the way you want it.

As for my articles getting read... I have no such insecurity. Two of my previous articles `Are Secularism and islam incompatible` and `Rescinding the Concordat` are the two most read articles of this year on Chowk.

Journalism is not my profession...nor am I writer... therefore, I don`t need to take BS from anyone... especially someone who doesn`t have a positive bone in his body...

-YLH

Re: Mantolives....

In my reply I have applauded you intent which I re-iterate here as well. I am neither an authority nor a scholar of history - and I do grudgingly admire that you take the time and the effort to write on the chowk - even though I feel that there are strong undercurrents of your ideological mindset often presented as fact.....



But if you wish your articles to be read - make sure that you research them well - or at least adequately - otherwise it puts your credibility at risk...... I have been on the chowk for a very long time - and must admit that you have become more pragmatic than in the past......

Nonethless - please dont present opinions as fact - Tell history as it was - not as you wanted it to be - which is what you have done in this article - and it does not help your journalistic credibilty any.......

On a seperate note - stinging criticism is an occupation hazard for a writer -( whether deserved or not) so develop a thick skin and get used to it.....