Farzana and Me

re: HN

Harish, local leadership will surely and slowly evolve as the established leadership fails to answer and solve the political issues and in fact, seems to create more of a rift in issues than in bridging them.

The key towards the rise of the local leadership will be proportional to the levels of discredit, which the centralized leadership incurs. It is a question about political legitmacy and that too, in a perceptional sense and there is a growing sense of disenchantment with the established cadres of political power and this can be seen in the levels of political apathy that are manifesting themselves systematically in the politics of Pakistan (though I cannot speak for India but I am sure that a similar pattern applies there too).

Ciao

Dear All,

I think this board has turned it self into a theological gutter. I feel as if I am in the dark ages with all those zealot creeps trying publish their slogans for the net ummah. I think this is no place for guys like me. bye.........

Faruk,Dost,t, Sadna,Plats, Stuka,

No, I did not mean separate religious constituencies. Pox be on that idea. What I emant is, that too many politicians still thrive on the idea of a unified community, however mystical it might be.

We need to have local leadership thriving, wherever possible. The more such leaders on the scene, the better. It does not matter which community, or even which party they belong to. Yes, elections are fought often on these developmental issues. In fact the latest assembly elections suggest that development is moving centrestage.

Faruk, I did not advocate the worse, as you feared. No, what I am saying is local leadership, if sufficiently plural, will help the causes of marginalised communities more. I think more and more confident people from a variety of backgrounds will help their communities to move ahead.

I think, one great confidence booster for victimised communities is more and more immediate role models. Azim Premji as the role model of an Azamgarh lad sounds less likely to be an inspiration. Shabana Azmi woiuld work better there.

``They are still not that much better off today. ``

Well, the leaders certainly are, and they placate the masses.

Ref dost-mittar #144

[Re. the issue of general schools replacing madrassas, it cannot be done -I think- without a change in the constitution which guarantees minorities complete control over their educational institutions.]

The courts have already ruled that educational institutions run by minorities can have complete management control -- including right to admit whom they want.

I see advertisements in Tamil Nadu from private engineering colleges stating they are a minority institution; the minorities being a religious minority such as Christian or -- this gets better -- linguistic as being run by Telugus in a Tamil-speaking state! I believe 50% of the seats are reserved for admission by the Directorate of Technical Education and the other 50% is available for sale to the highest bidder such as Inji-kari-kuzhambu who claims to have upgraded his preferred condiment to Soysauce.

dost-mittar #141
IMO, India is blessed NOT to have separate electorates for Hindus, Muslims. Dalits, for example in which rigidly defined communities rigidly remain in their own political sphere, with their resp. representatives having no stake in each other`s causes. That system really pits one community against another.

A pluralist democracy with combined electorates needs a combination of BOTH types of politicians and politics, ie, those who arise from their community and graduate to wider issues (such as the Hindu-Muslim divide) and those who from the start are not tied to causes of religious identity. These impulses can then compete with each other and the people get sufficient choice. Democracy needs choice.

For example, like Akali Dal and Manmohan Singh/Amarinder Singh are both relevant to the Sikh community and to India or Ahmed (IUML, Kerala) and MJ Akbar(in the past) are both relevant too.

Its also a matter of practical politics as HN points out. A lot of politicians begin in the local neighbourhood or local chamber of commerce/community organisation, and then build on that to win wider influence.

Being able to span communities/region is a skill which is needed to different extents, depending on the type of politics/neighbourhood/issue/ideology/competition.

For instance if Ms Mayawati wants to beat Dalit leaders in rival parties(or wants to widen her support base to nonDalits to get an edge), she may or maynot find it expedient to champion other causes than Dalit. Or if Ms Jayalalitha wanted to exert influence in national affairs, she would need champion causes/build bases outside her region(Laloo is trying this)

India needs all kinds of politics, including Muslim politics, within community/region as well as spanning community/region.

Correction : A pluralist democracy with combined electorates needs a combination of BOTH types of politicians and politics, ie, those who arise from their community and graduate to wider issues (such as SPANNING the Hindu-Muslim divide) and those who from the start are not tied to causes of religious identity.

Dost/temporal #146,

Yes, there is an ongoing effort to reform Madrasa syllabi in various parts of the
country. As you can imagine, this needs to be done gently, as to not offend
sensibilities. The govt in West Bengal has been trying to do this, and there were
some success stories that I remember reading. Apparently, one particular Madrasa
has had students do very well in the state-wide exams. Incidentally it also
has a substantial number of Hindu students who find it better than any of the
other schools nearby.

Re : HN dost-mittar
I have a fundamentally different opinion on the kind of political leadership you advocate. I think I can appreciate the affiliation people feel towards political leaders from their “community”. The word “community” with the same connotation that dost-mittar used. But I don’t think anyone who needs anything other than competence for the post is a good choice.
I don’t think more muslims in parliament will help the muslim community in India. It’s the quality of leadership that matters. The political leaders don’t have to be muslims. The SC/ST have had reservation in parliament for over 50 yrs. They are still not that much better off today.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: HN # 142
If what you are saying is true then I don’t think Indian Muslims have a hope. I don’t agree that is the case though. I think the issues that win elections are the same for all Indians. By the way there aren’t that many muslim dominated constituencies in India.

Regards,

Faruk

t:
I believe they can and they do, to some extent. Someone else may correct me but I think that there are no rules for elementary schools, but for high school certificate, the schools have to prepare their students for a state-vide or a nation-vide examination and cover the prescribed syllabus.

dost:

re: complete control...

can the state not legislate some mandatory subjects to be taught in the madrasas?

what about local languages?...are they not mandatory in madrasas?....if they are/can be...then perhaps another solution would be to introduce mathematics and sciences etc. as mandatory subjects...to diliute the effects?

HN:
Are you suggesting that the muslim vote in India cannot be won on the basis of the roti-kapada-makan or its remake, bijali-sarak-pani issue? I would hope not.
Re. the issue of general schools replacing madrassas, it cannot be done -I think- without a change in the constitution which guarantees minorities complete control over their educational institutions.

Harish:

what dost says re: francophone ministers being looked upon to serve their constituents is not without merit... but in India that may well apply only in Kashmir...on the bigger canvas...i can only hope...that a responsive hindu/muslim (can’t have one without the other) leadership would emerge...in a manner it would be classic catch-22...as the muslims become more active in politics they will reap the social and economic benefits...BUT for them to become more active they have to come out of physical as well as mental ghettoes...

...this economic empowerment...(am looking at the big picture)...will benefit all indians...of necessity this will be a slow and long haul process...stuka has made a good suggestion re: inclusion from the primary level up…

...am not sure if the `right` leadership can be `created`...it would have to evolve...

...in this the `intelligentsia` and the `media` have to play the catalyst…will they?

…t

ps: has Congress petered out?...can an effective national party emerge out of the ashes?...for how long sonia will play the ‘regent’?...what is the potential of the daughter…forget her name...does she have killer instincts or just another pretty face with the right name?

Dost,

``Do we want a politician who advocates more madrassas and haj subsidies or the one who wants more scholarships for muslims to assist them to compete with others on an equal footing?``

Dost, what you say is rational only in a chatshow like chowk. In real India, democratic India too, many leaders who share your ethusiasm for such ``cut & dry`` rationalism will rather emphsise the former, even while they push for the later. Because, if he did not do the former, he has no hope for the later. He has to be alive, as in democratically/politically, to pursue his own rational options. He cannot afford to forsake his bread and butter issues. In an obvious case where these issues matter: meaning Muslim dominated constituencies, he would have to plug for the first half of your options more publicly than the second. And, unless he succeeds in that effort, the second option will ephemeral.

stuka, faruk, plats8:
There seems to be some confusion regarding Indian and community leaders. First of all, I dont think that anybody is advocating faith based parties, although communal parties are a fact of life, whether based on faith, such as Akalis and Indain Muslim League of Kerala, or caste-based parties, such as BSP although it has been trying to expand its base beyond its dalit core. I, for one, am not in their favour.
But the fact of life is that people do identify with their own group. Not necessarily in a party of their own but to the people of their community in a party. This was always the case - even during the days when Nehru was accepted as the undisputed leader of all Indians, muslims still looked up to Maulana Azaad to safeguard their interests. I do not see anything wrong in this, especially when it concerns minorities. I see this in Canada all the time when francophones do expect French Canadian ministers to look after their particular interests; same wrt black politicians in the US. For example, a muslim politician is more likely to insist that his community gets a better representation when a party is deciding on its nominees for elections than a hindu politician. The point is what kind of politician should be there? Do we want a politician who advocates more madrassas and haj subsidies or the one who wants more scholarships for muslims to assist them to compete with others on an equal footing? Unfortunately, the muslim politicians so far have preferred the former over the latter objective.
Re. Salman Khurshid, I too have not heard anything about him lately. The last I read, he was chosen by Sonia to be the chief of the party in UP. From the mess the party is in that state, his performance seems to be less than stellar.

Faruk:

``But I think we need Indian leaders not separate leaders for each faith or community. The problem starts when people start looking for someone to represent a faith or community, not just with the kind of people they choose. ``

My post 3132 was descriptive rather than normative. I did mention in my earlier post that ideally there should be Indian leader because the base needs of every community (at least from the government) are the same.

At the outset, thank you gentlemen for restoring sense, and therefore dignity to this thread.


jang:

``My view is that the hindu-muslim rift is not a political problem, but a social one.....Political leadership tends to be opportunistic and is mostly followership (of trends). ``

This analysis is corect, but might be incomplete. IMO, and this is true especially of democracies, politics is the whetstone on which sociological inequities, and even regressive social dogmas, have their best chances of being repaired.

Moaning for getting a bad lane, or starting with a disadvantage has its legitimate reasons, but in the final analysis it can be self-defeating. As in the case of the Dalits, empowerment, as in concrete empowerment, can come only through politics, and active politics. Yes, right kinds of leaders, even when partially flawed...sometimes the flwas are even more spectacular than the skills... need to be thrown up from the community.

Sometimes, very often, the beligerence within a community and its divisiveness...again an aspect of political marshalling...can keep good and proven leaders out...on the basis of a narrow dogma.

One example that comes to the mind is how the greatest leader of the opressed clasees in India...one of the founding fathers of this country...Dr B R Ambedkar had died leaving his wife Savita behind as his legatee. Savita, was born brahmin, but shared and believed in Ambedkar more than many of his own cadre. But, the dalit movement in Maharashtra never forgave Savita for her original brahmin roots. The party splits up before every election, are the most traded horses in the state during govt formation, and have not expanded their base beyond the traditional bastions.

On the other hand is the case of Sushil Kumar Shinde, the current Chief minister of maharashtra, who has been winning from a general...as in non-reserved constituency...for years together. He is the chief minister of the state today, but somehow is not very connected to dalit cause...or at least not seen as.

Faruk,

``There is a tendency among folk you refer to as “thinking hindus” to assess the opinion of Indian Muslims by every nut who makes inflammatory statements from Jama masjid. This is true of the mainstream press too.``

That is a twin edged problem, Faruk. As dost clarified later, such classes, if they exist hardly vote. But, they are often opinion makers. And, they tend to influence opinions of other nascents who are still learning to think.

But this is true from both ends. Few thinking Muslims get solace from strident or reasoned secularists. And yes, the media is to blame. How much? I do not know, but it might be exciting to go through Arun Shourie`s Indian Express pieces during the Mandal agitation. The media was against the reservations...he found out I think...because the media employed the same lot who are likely to lose jobs...and seats in educational instituitions.

Another reason that might be a big bottleneck to finding...or the futile waiting...for the Muslim leader maybe that knowingly, or unknowingly, emphasises the myth that the Muslim identity of Indian Muslims is monolythic. Those found of irony can check how Banatwala keeps winning from Kerala.

BTW those in growth phase (read the BJP) seem to be alive to this issues more than those on the decline (read the Congress), and want to be seen as more heterogenous. BJP has Muktaar Ahmed Naqvi, Venkaiah naidu, Bangaru Laxman...also women faces...Scindias, and now Uma Bharati, and Sushma Swaraj.

Re: stuka # 132
I think I agree with your analysis in general. But I think we need Indian leaders not separate leaders for each faith or community. The problem starts when people start looking for someone to represent a faith or community, not just with the kind of people they choose.

Regards,

Faruk

re: dost-mittar # 130
“Perhaps, it was. As I tried to clarify in another post, ``dominant`` or ``thinking`` do not mean majority (but there are no opinion polls on these issues, are there?). But these happen to be the opinion leaders of their communities and dominate the media.”

They may dominate the media but are definitely not the opinion leaders of their communities. They write to stir debate or are just trying to make a living writing. Its dangerous to base your opinion on lack of opinion polls or columnists.

Regards,


Faruk

Dost-mittar #126
``I think that we need another Gandhi who is secure in his own identity and can also establish rapport with his people.``

Hmm…
I think we need ordinary Indian leaders with all their flaws who can establish a rapport with people irrespective of their differences.

Regards,

Faruk

``We need more integration at primary schooling level, to lessen the communal insecurities. The kids which grow-up segragated, can only grow up with strong us-them complex. ``

Agreed!!

#132 by stuka on December 11, 2003 9:07am PT

Ditto! Thanks.

Stuka #132,

I agree with your analysis. I wasn`t sure what Temporal was pointing at when
he talked about looking at propelling agents of Bukhari et al. Actually, what is
interesting is that the Congress and the BJP placate the same set of Muslim leaders.
The reason is exactly what you said - give Bukhari his crumbs and he`ll make the
appropriate noise about Kashmir and what not.

Dost-mittar #126
``I think that we need another Gandhi who is secure in his own identity and can also establish rapport with his people.``

Given that Gandhi (and Nehru) are the favourite whipping-boy of the hindutva idiots,
you have lost all credibility there. On a personal note, I wish that we did have a Gandhi
around. A calming presence in this dangerously sectarian climate.

As an aside, I wonder why Salman Khurshid didn`t rise the ranks of the Congress
faster. He seems like an articulate and dynamic person, with the right family pedigree
to go with it. Seems to be stuck in the UP political muddle.

re: dost-mittar # 126

You provide an excellent analysis but end with an uncharacterisitic whimper. Waiting for personalities, priests, and prophets is never any solution.

India is 80% Hindus. So genuine Hindus come forward to play their constructive role. This role must lie equidistant from both pseudo secularists of congress raj and senseless Hindutva that is trying to replace it. Then they must work to assure equal rights and security to all Indians.

Plats8:

``I think the GOI has its own reasons to have these characters as
the front-end of the Muslims, but perhaps there are more subtle forces at play. ``

The answer is staring at you in the face. Look at the two kinds of leaders:

1. Syed Bukhari types: When was the last time they actually asked for something concrete for the Muslims? I have followed this guy`s media utterences and never has he given a speech asking for reservations, water, power supply in the old Delhi area, sanitation..nothing. His demands are for ``dignity`` and ``honor`` which are at best intabgibles. How do you give ``dignity`` to the Muslims as asked by Imam Bukhari? By giving him a relevent position enabling him to carry on being an unchallenged leader. Its a win win situation for the government (low cost high gain) and Bukhari (no effort required, status quo is maintained) and the only people who get screwed are the Muslims and thereon even the Hindus because in a popular social sense the two communities are attached.

2. The Progressive Muslim leaders: These are a problem to everyone. The government does not like them because they demand concrete things like governance and economic upliftment. So much easier to mouth platitudes. This is the same mistake that Gandhi made with Ali broothers rather then sharing genuine power with Jinnah. The historial parallel is amazing. Ofcourse, I am talking about the pre-Muslim League Jinnah when I say this.

My view is that the hindu-muslim rift is not a political problem, but a social one. As a result, a political leadership will be unable solve it, but can only capitalize on it. The main problem is that of mistrust. This has existed in the best of times, even when there was no Hindutva politcs. At college or high-pofessional levels, religion of a person is almost invisible. However, at primalry and high-school education their is almost no integration to speak of. The big factor is lack of good secular schools, palatable to Muslims. Most good (attractive) schools in the cities (India is no more a village since 40% population lives in cities or outskirts.) tend to be community oriented and hence not attractive to muslims; imagine going to a school with name like Raja Shivaji School, or Tilak High school. I remember in large middle-class school which I went to, i knew a few Jewish kids, Parsee kids, one Mulsim kid and almost no Christian kids. Onother problem is that many good large middle-class schools are vernacular. Muslims again dont find it attractive, since many of them tend to list Urdu as mothertounge. Hindus and muslims both are very open to attending good church schools, but they are not dominant in the middle to lower middle class. A few Parsee schools that exist in Bombay are very popular among the Gujjus, due to language affinity. So what am I trying to say? We need more integration at primary schooling level, to lessen the communal insecurities. The kids which grow-up segragated, can only grow up with strong us-them complex. Political leadership is never a solution, unless we like to gamble. Political leadership tends to be opportunistic and is mostly followership (of trends).

About media..less said the better.

Faruk:
`` That was a biased analysis. Its Mr. Ghulam Muhammed opinion. I don’t know if he is Indian. So to pass his opinion as an opinion of Indian Muslims is definitely not a fair.``

Perhaps, it was. As I tried to clarify in another post, ``dominant`` or ``thinking`` do not mean majority (but there are no opinion polls on these issues, are there?). But these happen to be the opinion leaders of their communities and dominate the media.
PS: Upon reflection, the term ``thinking hindus`` was perhaps a misnomer. I was thinking more of the HUM -hindu, urban, middle-class- factor here.

dost-mittar:

...well said India is a strange place where the sense of victimhood afflicts not only the minority but also the majority

…one can say a lot re: the use of religion to whip up political sentiments…

…the irony one cannot escape is the hindutvadis may have learned their tactics from the muslim extremists and fundamentalists across the border!

The muslim … have to battle suspicions of disloyalty….underrepresented in the state organs of power….cannot count on the state to give them the protection they need nor to give meaningful redressal of their genuine grievances… some of them feel that they have no choice but to take responsibility for their protection in their own hands

--agree with this…well argued…but disagree with their tactics to take law into their own hands…

…perhaps when this is recognized by the state and political parties and effective measures taken to alleviate the grievances…this would instill the necessary confidence not to look outside the law?

…how widely is your perception shared in India?…and what is being done in this regard?

rgds,

t

Re : dost-mittar #105

“I think that this article sums up the dominant thinking of Indian muslims; namely, that the turning of Hanuman Garhi temple into a virtual mosque for Eid is a symbol of a tolerant, secular India whereas a muslim governor of Maharashtra showing respect for his majority citizenry by visiting their temple -just as Akbar did during his reign!- is a sign of muslim humiliation in an intolerant India.”

That was a biased analysis. Its Mr. Ghulam Muhammed opinion. I don’t know if he is Indian. So to pass his opinion as an opinion of Indian Muslims is definitely not a fair. There is a tendency among folk you refer to as “thinking hindus” to assess the opinion of Indian Muslims by every nut who makes inflammatory statements from Jama masjid. This is true of the mainstream press too.

Regards,

Faruk

plats8:

…am not very sure of the answer but when i posed that query i wanted to examine who propels the bukharis and shahabuddins…admittedly two face(t)s of the muslim thinking in India?… how is it that with every emerging crisis these guys or their clones are splashed across the media and overwhelm any other muslim reaction?

--is it the media alone?
--is it the media in conjunction with certain politicians/political parties?
--is it the media in conjunction with the establishment?

...and add to this dost’s rhetorics as well:

--why folks like asghar ali engineer and others are ignored or low keyed?

Stuka:

... was commenting on earlier posts the query was rhetorical…am arguing the implausibility of having a unified outlook given the circumstances…

rgds,

t

stuka, you dont have to make a distinction in India, RSS leads both the fascists and the swadeshi protectionists there!
It is clear to me who poses the greatest threat to India today, and it is the trishul wielding ugly face of hindutva which, as ballukhan correctly points out, is capitalising on the inferiority complex of hindus.
The question is how to deal with this threat. nasah and ballukhan have it right when they take the approach of `plague on both houses` in dealing with relgious bigotry. There is a strong belief among many that muslims should criticise bigotry among muslims and hindus among hindus only. This is fine as far as the reform of religions is concerned, but it doesn`t work at the political level. The key to political success is one`s credibility, lose it and one is finished. This is what has happened to the hindu secularists in India. We are living in a different world now; there are Net-savvy hindutvavadis who are ready to analyse each and every word uttered by these secularists for any sign of bias in their statements, when they find such bias they are immediately dubbed as pseudo-secularist, a term which carries the same stigma today that the term communalist carried in my generation. And if the charge sticks, they might as well restrict themselves to lecturing at JNU and other similar august places on lecture circuits in India and abroad. They will be no more effective among the hindus than the BJP muslims like Abbas Naqvi or Shahnawaz are among the muslims.
India is a strange place where the sense of victimhood afflicts not only the minority but also the majority. The muslim insecurity is well-grounded in the reality facing them. They have to battle suspicions of disloyalty just because of the name they carry. They find themselves greatly underrepresented in the state organs of power, such as legislatures, police, judiciary and bureaucracy. They cannot count on the state to give them the protection they need nor to give meaningful redressal of their genuine grievances. Backed into a corner, some of them feel that they have no choice but to take responsibility for their protection in their own hands.
The hindu sense of victimhood has no apparent basis in contemporary reality but in a sense of historical injustice. The hindutva forces have proven quite adept at exploiting this sense. When the secular forces were in the establishment, they tried hard to change this perception by suggesting that this perception was false and a result of distortion of history. However, they failed in this attempt. Now, that the hindutva forces are in ascendancy, they are using the same state apparatus to accentuate that perception.
How one can address the two senses of victimhood and who will have the credibility to do so is the question to which I do not have a good answer. I think that we need another Gandhi who is secure in his own identity and can also establish rapport with his people.

#118 by dost-mittar on December 10, 2003 1:49pm PT

Both the faces were what I would term as ``POLITICAL``, and hence un-acceptable to ordinary folk like me who do not want to see any reference of any religion in the statecraft and governance.
The un-fortunate part of it is that the power brokers in both the muslim and hindu communities want to assert these religious identities so that they can then play their game of divide and rule. The TNT-s thrived on it and created their hovels in the sub-continent. Now the Hindutva ideology is trying to capitalize on the inferiority complex of the hindus viz a viz the Islamic ideology in creating another hovel for themselves.
So, both the faces are un-acceptable to me- both the maulanas and mahants have to be ignored by the media - both of them are two faces of the same stupid communal coin.

Temporal #117,

I don`t get it. Who propels the Shahabuddins and the Bukharis ? I am not being
facetious here. I think the GOI has its own reasons to have these characters as
the front-end of the Muslims, but perhaps there are more subtle forces at play.

Stuka #123,

You`re right. There shouldn`t be a Muslim leadership, much as there shouldn`t be a
Black leadership in the US. But there is, and given the current climate, I doubt we
can wish it away. Given that, the question about the nature of the leadership still
remains. As Dost-Mittar said, why do the Asghar Ali Engineers and the Zakarias
(or even M.J. Akbar, who was a Congress MP) get marginalized and demagogues
like Bukhari (whom every thinking Muslim I know, seems to dislike) end up being
the public face of Indian Muslims in the secular media ?

Dost-mittar #118,

You`re right. A decade ago, hindutva-vadi Bengali journalists would be an oxymoron.
Just to be fair, though, Swapan Dasgupta is an opportunistic turn-coat who saw the
rising stock of BJP and decided to ride the wave. Pritish Nandy has essentially no
standing among the Bengalis - he seems to be largely content-free. None of these
people are considered opinion leaders in Bengal. The political discourse there still has
a dominant leftist element to it.

``...i don`t think there is a viable muslim leadership per se in india...and given the vastness and disparity doubt if there can be one...
``

Why should there be a ``Muslim`` leadership per se, or for that matter a Hindu one. It is unfortunate that the Indian people I agree with on social issues (Nasah etc) tend to also lean left on economic matters and the people I agree with on economic matters (Gujju Bania for one) tend to be fascist in the social era. Oh well, God Bless America.

temporal

I do have an audience larger than just myself :)

But I wont accuse you of lying again. Just of outright stupidity.

Your sister Farzana can do what she wants. (nasah, sorry about my earlier statement). I only highlighted what she has and has not done.

ps:

the lady will in due course refute them again...perhaps on another board if you care to bring it to her attention...and if she so choses to do...

care to focus on the larger issue?

#119:

keep repeating:)

you have yourself for an audience...

when you tire you can `research` through her rebuttals...

...t

nooralain #116

Temporal lied. I pointed out the lie. You, not I, called him a lier.

I will again rub it in to you and any Pakistani who chooses to lie on behalf of sister Farzana. Farzana DID NOT refute any of those pearls of wisdom, certainly not in any of her endless stream of articles.

I can say this without any fear of contradiction by Farzana`s brothers and sisters because I am right and I dont need to save face by acting falsely sanctimonious :)

temporal, ferozk:
I am glad that the discussion is moving away from discussing a personality!
Yes, I am aware that there are no monoliths among either hindus or muslims or, for that matter, in any other religious community. But I am somewhat of a voyeur of the political scene, though not an entirely disinterested one.
I see some movements taking place in India on the communal front that I find disturbing. I used the term `dominant thinking` in describing the muslim attitude; it may not be the attitude of the majority but that`s the one that comes across in both the secualr media as well as publications like millie-gazette. Whether we like it or not, these are the opinions of opinion leaders of muslims in India today while the voices of people like Asghar Ali Engineer and Rafique Zakaria are being marginalised.
I used the term `thinking hindus` because of the attractiveness of the BJP among urban and educated hindu middle class. A particularly revealing indicator is the rising number of bengali journalists -Pratish Nandi, Chandan Mitra, Swapan Dasgupta and others -toeing the hindutva line; this would have been unthinkable even a decade ago. They too are the opinion leaders in their communities. If there is a confrontation among opinion makers, can the confrontation among the masses be far behind?
To be honest, the intolerance of minorities per se does not bother me; what bothers me is the backlash it unleashes among the majority, because the inevitable result of majority bigotry is fascism which will surely destroy India. My remark regarding the intolerance of intolerance should be taken in that context.

plats8:

...i don`t think there is a viable muslim leadership per se in india...and given the vastness and disparity doubt if there can be one...

... find out who really propels the shahabuddins and bukharis as the indian muslim`s voice and what is their agenda...hint: it is not the GOI....

rgds,

t

rationalfaith. . .
while i take umbrage not only to you calling me a liar, but to calling my friend temporal a liar as well, i`m not going to argue with you because you don`t sound rational to me in the least bit.

people read and remember what they choose to, and what you choose to remember could be deemed as questionable as well. and what i remember right now is being asked not to discuss or cast aspersions on farzana`s personality any longer. if farzana was the chicken you so erroneously claim that she is, i can assure you she would not return time and time again. she is not as inhuman as you paint her to be.

you have time and time again cast aspersions on islam, on muslims, on anything that has to do with pakistan, and those have been unjust, and what we have here, once again is you casting aspersions that are not just. it is not really worth my time to try and have an open conversation with you or one that is free of belligerence. so continue to cling to whatever notions you have of your assured superiority and sense of rightness. . .time will tell just how real those things you cling to are.

Sadna #113,

How can you legislate ``respect`` ? Acceptance one obviously can legislate, to the
degree that it implies non-imposition or non-obstruction.

I do agree with what you say here about making religion a completely private matter,
and good to have you back at chowk.

Ferozk #107,Temporal #106,

You guys are correct in that Hindu and Muslim opinions in India cover the whole gamut.
I guess one of the problems is with the nature of the Muslim leaderhip, which is
taken to be indicative of the collective Muslim voice. I never understood why the govt chooses Imam Bukhari or Syed Shahabuddin to represent them - these are surely
not the most progressive voices around. But then, the regressive ones are the most
vocal in every country.

nooralain #71

You have repeated the lie that temporal conveniently invented in #70.

Farzana has refuted nothing. Not in her articles. When she has been challenged, like the chicken that she is, she has repeatedly resorted to subterfuge, everytime claiming that she didn`t mean what she said. Her next articles would again be dripping with such pearls of wisdom. That is the classic pattern that temporal should talk about.

What people read and remember are her articles, not her subterfuges, and `I didn`t means.`

Farzana has made all those statements and has REFUTED NONE OF THEM in any of her articles. Neither has she apologized for her statements, either in her articles, or in her stream of subterfuges.

HN
I agree with dost-mittarji wrt the `respect not accept` part.

But I don`t understand why the person you mentioned wanted to discuss HIS religious inclinations with you. Nothing has ever prevented him from getting together with likeminded people and having a bhajan mandali or taking out a temple procession in public - this happens all the time in India. Surely many of us have had the experience of having to study for exams through loud temple/church festivals or gotten caught in traffic for processions or had people solicit funds for public celebrations. If thats what his parents did, he can continue to do that, can`t he?

Religion should be kept to the private sphere/choice. The change which Hindutva-vadis are trying to bring in is, they want to take OWNERSHIP of/CORPORATISE individual religious practice/ inclination, ie make one`s religious inclinations(or lack of) their business.

Thats an UNACCEPTABLE intrusion into the most private of spheres, and the conversation you mention(if not among close friends) is one consequence of this. I am sure people across the border have had sufficient disasterous experience of going down that road, beginning with `Muslim` spotting, for us to be warned not to similarly slide to disaster via `Hindu` spotting, as members of the Sangh want.

Then there is the other extreme, if you will, of denigrating everything Hindu/Muslim, simply by definition. Thats not going to work in India. If one cannot denigrate a mother tongue language and get away with it, much less can one denigrate religious tradition and expect to get anywhere.

Much less can one take a person`s religious background as the sole reason for him/her to be always right. Its this underlying assumption on chowk which bugs some people I guess(I find it very off-putting).

#110 by HN
Since we are into anecdotes..

I had a muslim friend, middle-class, living in relatively cosmopolitan area of Bomay called Andheri. She was a recent dental college graduate and was doing some kind of aprenticeship with an established dentist in Dongri, a muslim ``muhalla``. She told me that although she would prefer to work in growing suburbs than Dongri, she was unsure about it being a muslim. Also, importantly, she found an older practitioner, from her community, and that was a relatively easy choice. This was in 1984.

So, why are very many people like your your ``simpleton friend`` cynical of the psudo-secularist? Especially the non-reporting commentrators? The communal rifts and muhalla-isation issue definately predates the current Hindutva politics. The secular commentrators were missing in action then. The problem posed then, was far more nuanced (as it is now in rality). However, now, the writers seem to relish a simplified hindutva demon to add masala to their stories. Nuances-Shuances.

re: harshreality # 77

Why is it that people misinterpret posts so damn easily? Harshreality ji, saminshah did not post that because he agrees with that ass harunyaha. He posted it to show the moral bankruptcy of the doctrine harunyaha follows.

Your attack was most uncalled for. Please, you ought to apologize to him.

Recently I met a young wife in Bangalore, who after working in a sericulture laboratory switched to journalism. After working in a small niche magazine, she has just moved to a mainstream newspaper. She introduced me to her husband, an accountant in a small firm. They did their journalism course after marriage together. He too had a great love for journalism. She made it, and he is staying put in his current modest job, and encouraging her to fulfill their common ambition.

From all accounts they are a typically middle class, Hindu family. At elngth, the husband, a emotional idealist I gathered, asked me an odd quesation. Why is it that if I talk about my religion, or show an interest in Hindu mythology, or go to temples, I am frowned upon?

I think he was trying to get me into a discussion where he`ll get to know a yes or no answer, and find out whether I am a ``pseudo-secularist`` or am I also one of those Hindus trying to be more modern by NOT criticisng those who read-into his normal life...the way his parents have lived for years...temple...tikka...etc...

I quote this incident to illustarte one single point. Whatever its causes may be, both Hindus and Muslims are overtly touchy with the very discussion of such subjects. And, here I am talking about the educated, urban, or simply those with greater opportunity to understand the differences compassionately. From all accounts, my interogator, was a simpleton more given to emotions than trudging miles on that arid territory called knowledge. His hurt, as I perceived, was yet not hate of Muslims...or anything remotely close to that. His fear was that ``intellectuals`` advocating secularism often tend to read so much into old, almost intenalised, customs ...that he is feeling threatened...insecure...

I quote an Hindu here, because, it might be a big mistake to imagine that all insecurity is the Indian Muslims` prerogative. It is NOT true that all Hindus are very triumphal, even if they do not support the BJP...or affiliated parties. Even they are feeling threatened, insecure....in their own small ways.

I am not reducing or trivialising the fear and insecurity of Muslims here. They are obviously more immediately threatened, because of political developments, the shrinking spaces to air and get redressals for their individual torments, they fear for the future that is seeming more and more anti-their community, and the shenanigans of the more strident Hindutva characters, and the media coverage they garner, is concretising their fear. And, make no mistake, it is a real danger. If one is from that community, then the danger is actually the heavy ball of steel that continues to sink in your solar plexus.

Now, as the contageon of fear spreads, it will breed more insecurity, more suspicion, more defensiveness. A nation with even say 20 percent of such people cannot but be hugely vulnerable to implosion. And sometimes, perfectly regular, non-communal Hindus, like this friend in my anecdote, react with greater stength to slightest view of that sympatise with victims. Because, he imagines, the carrier of victim`s perspective is the mother of all his collective social demons.

This armed neutrality between the two communities is worrying. It is in that context that I tried to initiate a discussion. I do know some of the discussion would have nothing to do with the point, but a lot of it seems to have concentrated on a fellow writer and a small band of her work being used to illutrate this point would add that much more relevance to the community at chowk.

re:#105 by dost-mittar
Excellent post.
I will have to take some more time to respond. But you have fired the first salvo. Expect some brickbats.
Sridhar

re: Dost-Mittar # 105

Dost, the Muslim voice in India is not a monotone. Like in the the general and so in the particular, one action by a solitary Muslim does not signify the opinion of the many and the many need not agree with the actions of the one. Islam is not a monolith and those who make this distinction, of Islam being monolithic, are monolithic in their own myopia.

I know, you are not one of the above, so I was amused to see that comment from you, because each Muslim act in India will have its share of appluse and its share of shame by the Muslims themselves and they will never agree on a single act with the same unity of perception, which you alluded.

Ciao

re: harimau # 63

``You are wrong. When someone slaughters cows, sacred or otherwise, we Indians go on a rampage and a communal riot ensues.``

Touche, mon amie! ROFLMAO!

Harimau, I am glad that some one was able to maintain a sense of humor.

Still, I have to restate and which is, that this article was not about FV. The article was about India. India is human and India is a mirror of humanity. India is proud and India is venal and India is progressive and India is regressive. India produces the best and the worst and India is a contradiction. India cannot be pigeon holed as a poster child for utopia and each person`s India is unique and India is the collection of your fears and hopes all rolled into one and what you struggle with is your idea of India; which swings between your limitations and your aspirations. It forces you to compromise, because India will not be what you wish and instead, like Anil said it so brilliantly, India will make you what she wishes and like a beautiful woman, India will seduce you as to try to seduce her and you will not even know the sly of fate, which has befallen you.

India is not an ideology, which can be debated, because the greatness of India lies in its humanity, with all its flaws and weakness and those who try to presend otherwise, do India and Indians a disservice. India is not fragile and India will survive and years from now, these shouts and confirmations of fate will vanish and the people who made them, will be forgotten and India will, with all its teeming billions, still be very much present and will still be viberant. Greatness of India lies in the fact that it thrives with all the hurdles in its way and that is more than what can be said for many a nation in this sorry world.

The article was a sarcastic rejoinder to the majority that it does not hold the monopoly of what is the meaning of India and to the minority that it cannot define what is, and should be, India and to both of them, to stop making India something, which India does not want to become.

The article, like I said was not about FV, but about the futility of the debate on the nature of India, which is being waged by the minority and the majority in India to define India and in the end, both will be wrong.

Ciao

dost:

nice quote from two faces of India by ghulam mohammad al jazira…

while you recognize there is no one voice of Hindu…(you have alluded to thinking hindus and majority of hindus here…and other hindu perspectives in your previous interacts elsewhere…hence you are aware of this that we cannot assign one voice to hindus…similarly…we cannot assign one voice to muslims either…the numbers are too large…india too big a behemoth…

…therefore when you say The more muslims show the attitude displayed in this article, the more hindus will go into the arms of militant hinduism, because they no longer believe in tolerating intolerance.…you err when you make the muslims of India sound as one monolith community…

….there will be Indians muslims who will applaud and there will be Indian muslims who will put down both incidents mentioned in the quoted article…

…this makes up for the vibrancy of the behemoth I mentioned in a previous post

rgds,

t

Let`s discuss the topic:
The chowk staff did not accept my request to end discussing the personality of a chowkie. So, let me try to do what chowk asked, namely, to turn to the issue of majority and minority views re. India. With this in mind, I am reproducing an article from Aljazeera on India, appararently by an Indian muslim and will follow it up with a comment.

[Two faces of India

By Ghulam Muhammed

Al-Jazeerah,12 /9/03
Two pictures in media would graphically hold a key to the Muslim psyche about their interaction with their Hindu compatriots in India. One depicts, the Governor of Maharashtra, folding hands before the deity in Siddhivinayak Temple in Mumbai, on the first day of his arrival in the city, as Maharashtra Governor, on appointment from the Center’s BJP led government. It was Friday and time was bang when lakhs of Muslims in the city were praying their Friday prayers. The picture published by The Asian Age, resulted in deep resentment among Muslims. The picture was sent out on internet all around the world, to symbolize the abject humiliation of a high Muslim state official of a secular democratic government of a land, where a 150million Muslims formed the world’s second largest Muslim population. It also characterized the deep-seated demoralization of Muslims, who, as L.K. Advani had referred to the Media, ‘crawled when asked to bend’.

The second picture depicts, ‘Hashim Ansari with Mahant Gayan Das’ of the front page of Milli Gazette, New Delhi (Dec1 -15,2003 ). The accompanying banner headline was: Azan, Iftar and namaz in Hanuman Garhi. The report detailed how the Mahant had revived the age-old neighborly relations between the two communities in Ayodhya and the deep respect that both had for the spirit of religiosity that characterized the town’s throbbing present and the much more glorious past. MG’s correspondent Manzar Mehdi describes the moving scene: In the evening when the Muslims in different groups dressed in Sherwani, topi etc. started entering the Hanuman Garhi, a big crowd including high officials of he the district and non-Muslim gentry of the City was there to see this historic event. At around5 . 15pm when Hashim Ansari, the oldest living plaintiff in the Babri title suit, broke fast at the hands of Mahant Gyan Das, along with hundreds of Muslims and media photographers “imprisoned” t! his historic and beautiful scene in their films for ever. The Hindu holy men personally served food, mainly fruits and yogurts, to the guests. Shortly thereafter the call of Allaho Akbar from the minarets of Hanuman Garhi, echoed in the atmosphere of Ayodhya. After the call for prayers, congressional namaz started. ….a new history of Ayodhya’s unity and love was written and balm was applied to the injuries of Babri Masjid’s martyrdom. Mahant Gyan Das (recalled) ‘with content and happiness writ large on his face, …..that the land of Hanuman Garhi was gifted by Nawab Mansoor Ali Khan and Nawab Shujaudaula had offered cooperation in its construction. Today, by throwing the Iftar party, we partly repaid their debts.’

Even if reaction in some Muslim circles was not wholly appreciative of this new development, in the background of the new and more sophisticated efforts to woo Muslims to hand over the Babri Masjid site to building of a Mandir in the carrot and stick alternative formulations, the residue effect of this Hindu-Muslim Ekta does leave some positive vibes, that were missing in Maharashtra Governor Mohammed Fazal’s in the supposedly ‘servile submission to diet in the line of duty’.

The recent victories by ultra-nationalist Hindutva BJP in 3 states, while Vajpayee is credited with rejecting the old electoral gimmickry of Babri-Masjid/ Ram Mandir politicization, and proving to his own party detractors that BJP can win even without religious mobilization, the Muslims will not be placated and will not relent without getting their full political rights in a democratic India entering the21 st century. The earliest Vajpayee and company realise it is for the good of the nation, that such a large and vibrant community should get its place in the governance of the country, the smoother India’s progress towards peace and prosperity for all the one billion citizens of the nation.

editor@aljazeerah.info]


The article ignores the act of a hindu nationalist government appointing a muslim governor of a predominantly large hindu state as a sign of tolerance but focusses, instead, on his visiting a hindu temple as characteristic of the deep-seated demoralisation of muslims.

I think that this article sums up the dominant thinking of Indian muslims; namely, that the turning of Hanuman Garhi temple into a virtual mosque for Eid is a symbol of a tolerant, secular India whereas a muslim governor of Maharashtra showing respect for his majority citizenry by visiting their temple -just as Akbar did during his reign!- is a sign of muslim humiliation in an intolerant India.

I would be safe in saying that this concept of asymmetric secularism is no longer acceptable to thinking hindus, although it probably still causes no problem for the large majority of hindus. Hindus can still be quite tolerant, respect and even accept muslim religion and patronise their dargahs and mazaars with visits and donations but they would also like their religion to be respected -not accepted- by muslims. This causes a challenge for many muslims to whom such respect goes against their religious beliefs.

Therein lies the problem. The more muslims show the attitude displayed in this article, the more hindus will go into the arms of militant hinduism, because they no longer believe in tolerating intolerance.
....And now, I fully expect some arrows pointed in my direction for being a bughal-mein-chhuree secularist.

Hypocrisy split wide open

Bibhuti Bhusan Nandy
December 8

Taslima Nasreen is not a paragon of virtue, but she is a brave woman. She has the grit to call a spade a spade. Pronounced a murtad (apostate) and sentenced to death by Islamic fanatics in Bangladesh, the exiled author remains firm in her condemnation of polygamy and other ills in the male-dominated Muslim society, for which she squarely blames the Prophet and the Koran.

Dwikhandita ‘the safer’ version, (Ka in Bangladesh) is an autobiographical work in which Nasreen has unmasked certain intellectuals of Bangladesh and West Bengal, narrating their extra-marital escapades. Additionally, Dwikhandita reiterates the author’s critical views on Islam. On the complaints of one aggrieved Bangladeshi writer and another intellectual of West Bengal, courts in Kolkata and Dhaka have stopped the marketing and sale of the book.

Against this backdrop, the ban on Dwikhandita (Split in two) by the Left Front regime reeks of ulterior motives. It has exposed the state government to the charge of appeasement of Muslim fanatics with an eye on the minority vote bank. It’s also a clever, if cynical, ploy to cover up the allegations of sexual aberrations involving some pro-establishment intellectuals, notably a septuagenarian poet and the father-in-law of a blue-eyed IAS officer, and another government favourite in the state information directorate.

The Marxists’ stand that Dwikhandita has hurt the religious feelings of a section and could spark off communal tensions is untenable. No fewer than 2,000 copies have been sold, but, except for the complaint from a fairly nondescript poet and some self-serving intellectuals, the book hasn’t created any ripple, let alone unleash communal tensions of any kind.

As Nasreen herself has pointed out, her earlier books — Lajja, Amar Meyebela and Utal Hawa — had contained much stronger attacks on Islam, Hazrat Mohammed, the Koran and the fundamentalists. But the Left saw nothing objectionable in those texts. Lajja, published in the wake of the post-Babri masjid communal backlash, was a graphic account of unmitigated Hindu-cleansing in Bangladesh that drove tens of thousands of Hindus into West Bengal. In this surcharged atmosphere, it had the potential of arousing communal passions, but the communists kept quiet, fearing that any action against the book would offend Hindu voters.

In view of the court injunction, the ban is an exercise of executive power. It has pre-empted the judicial process by removing the complainant’s cause of action. The government feared that the court proceedings might result in more damaging disclosures and go in favour of the book and its author. Thus, scuttling of the sub judice case was a safer bet. As the bizarre agitation against a high court order restricting street demonstrations has confirmed, the power-crazy Left has no respect for the law.

Unlike the West Bengal government, the BNP-Jamaat dispensation in Bangladesh has not interfered with the court case in Dhaka because the affected intellectuals there are mostly supporters of the opposition party, Awami League. In 1994, the government of Begum Zia encouraged the fundamentalists to agitate against Nasreen, so that it could provide her with an excuse to ban Lajja and banish its author. Today, in the face of sharpening criticism of the repression of the liberal democratic forces in the country, Dhaka is chary of incurring further opprobrium from the West.

The high-handed action of the West Bengal government has turned the spotlight on the chronicle of Marxist hypocrisy:

* In 1988, following the central ban on Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses, the Left Front kicked up a row. Ashok Mitra, former state finance minister, accused New Delhi of “pursuing the path of Mohammed Ali Jinnah”, conveniently forgetting that in 1947 the communists had unequivocally supported Jinnah’s two-nation theory and the Muslim League’s demand for Partition. In a total volte face now, the same party ideologue has justified the ban on Dwikhandita.

* In 1996, when M.F. Husain was attacked in Maharashtra for painting Saraswati in the nude, the CPI(M) organised massive protests in Kolkata, but Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee boycotted his exhibition in the city earlier this year after the artist had done some plainspeaking on the questionable merit of some Leftist artists.

* In 2000, after Deepa Mehta was forced to abandon the filming of Water in Varanasi purportedly because it hurt Hindu sentiments, the then chief minister, Jyoti Basu, and his deputy, Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee, assured her security if she made the film in West Bengal.

* Murtahim Billho Fazil’s Hindutva o Islam contains derogatory remarks against Hinduism, Christianity and the Jewish faith, but the Left Front government has turned a blind eye to this provocative book.

Since the Eighties, some so-called progressive intellectuals of West Bengal have systematically denigrated Hindu gods and goddesses. A prominent Bengali novelist, who had promoted Nasreen earlier, has echoed the government’s view that Dwikhandita has hurt the religious feelings of some people. But, writing under the pseudonym ‘Sanatan Pathak’ in a Bengali journal, he had called Goddess Kali a “fierce and ugly Santhal slut” (Kali hochhe bikrita beebhatsa darshana Sautal magi). Later, pornographic celluloid rendering of his novel Radha Krishna in Bangladesh offended the religious feelings of the Bangladeshi Hindus so much that the Ershad government had to ban it. A recent article by Sharmila Bose (Ananda Bazaar Patrika, August 3) depicted Ram as an impotent wretch and Sita as a nymphomaniac. By turning a blind eye to these acts of blasphemy, the Left has shown its bias against the Hindu faith.

The ban on Dwikhandita in the wake of the excision of Ganesh vandana from the Chhou dance and boycott of Saraswati bandana by the state government ministers doesn’t augur well for communal peace and harmony. These shibboleths have even provoked many non-communal citizens to question the motive behind teaching the Koran, Hadis, Islamic theology and Arabic at public expense and allowing mosques to operate in government offices, educational institutions and hospitals.

+
#84 by ali_1 on December 9, 2003 11:34am PT
# 45 m_souza

[“MAY OUR CLEAN COUNTRY OF PAKSITAN BE SAVED FROM THE sewer with billion pieces of turd THAT IS IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!!”]

Amen. We pray for this every day.
+

Pray pray....at least five times a day. That is what makes your elite country so progressive.


+
[“MAY ALL THE MUSLIMS FLOATING IN THAT INFIDEL TURD come floating and fall into OUR HOLY LAND OF PAKISTAN!!”]

Sorry, Pakistan is for Pakistanis. Indian muslims will create their new homeland WITHIN India.
+

Keep dreaming of dividing India...for that dream keeps your jihadi country`s young men alive and vibrant.
If Indian muslims set ablaze a train full of Hindu Indians then Godhra takes place. If they try to divide India again...(they did once and formed their shitty pakistan)..then God knows..what...maybe then they would actually be all exported to Pakistan..then let them live in HELL


+
PS. Please press your Caps Lock key before responding. Its on the left-middle side of your keyboard. Thank you.
+

Wow! you are indeed a genius!! You should come and work for an Indian IT company. Don`t waste your talents in that mullah land where you would finally end up being a terrorist and a jihadi (if that is not what you are already)

..... let`s call a trishul a trishul and accept the fact that most pakis and hindoos hate each other with a passion bordering on insanity............ and what they hate more than each other are turncoats, traitors, fifth-columnists and journalists who sympathize with the folks on the wrong side of the border ............ actually, the horrible hindoos are more prone to this sort of knee-jerk reaction than the pathetic pakis who spend half the time hating themselves ................of course there are a few peacenicks and mentally infirm folks on both sides who want to hug and kiss and make up with the enemy, but they are a tiny minority .......... the rest of us, if we had our druthers, would rather eat dirt than have anything to do with the converts or idolators ..........poor farzana is simply caught in the middle .............

re: #94

...was rsaxena talking to you?...did rsaxena reach low to actually address you?...NO....so get lost... muaaaaaaaaahaha

chowk staff:
``This is a request to all interactors to examine the larger issue addressed by the writer instead of making Farzana Versey the subject of discussion.``

Are you really that naive as to think that this article would lead to anything but a discussion about FV? And if you are really so naive, I have a question and a request for you: Did you check with FV before publishing this article? If not, I would request you to please remove it from here and end this distasteful discussion.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Harish:

…did not know you have a sadistic trait in you…are you enjoying/hurting all this vicariously?…Farzana has her share of faults…all of us here who breathe do have our faults…only the dead don’t…but despite her flaws and faults she speaks with passion, pain and love for her india…from her uniquely farzanian perch…

So what inflames some people about Farzana? you ask…or as chowk editors said…This article was published because HN, a respected writer at Chowk, was addressing a larger issue of Indian majority views vs. Indian minority views.

there are two explanations i can proffer:

1: Chowk is considered by some to be a Pakistani web portal…and Indians do not like to wash their dirty laundry in public…we pakistanis otoh have apparently no such qualms…and often and publicly are more critical and introspective of our religion, politics, government and military

2: farzana shows up all too often an ugly and uncomfortable image…that cannot easily be swept under or aside…

...what amuses me sometimes is this: you know the Indian hindus are by no means a monolithic group as they appear here in response to FV’s articles…we have discussed this at length on many occasions in the past… but here they collectively and vainly assume a shiny monolithic identity…perhaps inadvertently… and they do come across as one here…

…you say…Her worldview, thoroughly imperfect and magnificiently flawed as it is, is essentially humane.

…let us say for a moment that I share this sentiment I…then why do more detractors of FV focus on the underlined and not on the bold parts?

…you say..Emotional truth of Farzana’s pieces cut into our “Hindu Indian” collective consciousness. The point is most of our responses tend to be supremely assured….

assured?…on the contrary even a superficial read of the detractors tell us that they jump, nay pounce on the messenger…because perhaps delving on the message is painful and also needs a greater degree of moral rectitude and introspection than what they are willing to come up with? …there is nothing assured about this in any of the four classifications you discussed…

you say That her pieces have logical leaps, a pronounced preponderance for rhetoric, and a tendency to plough away weaknesses with flourishes, give enough legitimate reasons for a roasting by the politically pure.…if this was so than instead of roasting the message why do they barbecue the messenger?…almost always save a noble exception or two?

In postscript you write why do you Indians hate Farzana? the query should what is there is her writings that makes for that outpouring of hate?…a truer examination of this will perhaps enrich us more…perhaps that was your original intent…unfortunately we have yet to see a real discussion of this here…

rgds,

t

#81 by ali_1

G.I. Ali.. you are better commentrator that FV about what ails India. You are accurate, pithy, precise and have recommended solutions (indoor plumbing water in this specific case). Seems like many of the politicians of Bombay are listening to you. Apparently there seems to be chain of ``Sandas`` in Mumbai, some maintained by Sulabh International, with very garish proclamations on them of which MP/MLA/Corporator got them built (sometimes out of their allocated dev. funds). It literally reads something like ``your progress is facilitated by XYZ``..its kind of funny to think of your local rep each time you move bowels!

Since you seem to taking a lot of interest in these type of (bowel) movements, pls visit

http://www.sulabhtoiletmuseum.org/

and

http://www.sulabhinternational.org

re:# 76 by Anil
``Can we not appreciate the diversity that India is? Farzana is integral part of this diversity, this fabric. Because she is proud. Tears roll out when she hears Indian national anthem.``

Really! When did that happen? When did Farzana Bibi actually shed tears at the National anthem? Pity i missed that one.
I think people like Farzana are trying to travel in 2 boats. One boat leads to India, the other drifts towards Pakistan. F.V has not made up her mind which boat she should travel in. Hence, you read all kinds of ambiguous statements.

Just read some of her statements from articles posted in Chowk:

1. From ``The great turn on``:
F.V writes:
{Pakistan needs to be at war with India. Any kind of war. And even after all those losses (perhaps because of them) the sentiments remain. As they do here. Mr. Vajpayee, after talking about peace initiatives, said immediately, “We will continue to deal firmly with cross-border terrorism, a meaningful dialogue with Pakistan is only possible when we see sincerity in their efforts to stop cross-border infiltration and to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism.”

Of course, we must remember that these statements were made when addressing the combined armed forces commanders’ conference. It is important to speak like a warrior when you are setting up people to freeze in the snow. Just light a little fire to keep them warm}.
She seems to say that India is not sincere about peace. But, wait a minute! If you had read the whole article, you would know that she started out by actually criticising the peace initiatives by India vis-a-vis Pak. Make up your mind Bibi. What is it? Peace or War?

But, her best was to come later.
2. In the article ``Just another blow-up``, she writes:

{What caused the blasts of August 25, 2003? The Home Minister has said it could be the Lashkar-e-Taiba together with SIMI. The same modus operandi was used as in 1993. Busy public areas. Afternoon. Parked vehicles carrying the explosives.

But there was nothing of this kind after the Gujarat riots. Therefore, is it ‘preparing for elections’ time? Is this an answer to the no-confidence motion passed in Parliament? Is it some silly peeve against the proposed visit of The Israeli prime minister? Is it a dead man’s urn? Or is it the Archeological Survey of India’s report? It is difficult to define a backlash – sometimes it is an impulsive act, sometimes a well-planned move, sometimes political expediency.}
And, for those who did not read that article, here is the punch line:

{The moment I saw that shiny steel box, I knew it spelled trouble. I had no idea of what it contained, but my gut feeling was that it would not be a fair report. Because the prime minister of India had declared at the funeral of Ramchandra Paramhans that his wish to have a temple built at Ayodhya would be fulfilled even as he spoke about going by the court verdict. Because the Shankaracharya of Kanchi changed his tune. Because, as I have begun to believe, Ayodhya is now Kashmir. We need it to fight the enemies, Pakistan and what an increasing number of Indians have come to believe Indian Muslims to be – closet Pakistanis, or at least made-for-Pakistan.}

Any objectivity in the above statement? A journalist says so and so because of a ``gut feeling``. When was the last time you heard M.J.Akbar use that word?
One para later, we hear the now-familiar ``Farzana whine``:
{Therefore, when Hindus are killed in specific parts of the country, Muslims have to bear the brunt of the ire; when Muslims are killed, again Muslims must take the blame. They are accused of either playing the victim card or being Pak-bred predators.}

Farzana Bibi has always played the perfect victim and gotten loads of sympathies from her muslim chowkie friends. Note that the above statement had nothing to do with the topic of the article (about the Bombay blasts).
Need i go on? My problems with F.V is not whether she writes badly or she is anti-this or anti-that. My problem with her articles is: they are not objective and not backed with facts. A good journalist must first learn to be objective before putting pen to paper.
Sridhar

re: this article
What is all this fuss about Farzana Bibi? I cannot understand why people are wasting time on this kind of stupid discussion. I regularly read articles written by M.J. Akbar and Syed Naqvi. Both are good writers and write objectively. I have not yet seen even one single objective article by Farzana Bibi. She writes either to whine about something or to shock some people by her atrocious statements. Not one of her articles is backed by good research. I have not forgotten that pathetic article she published in Chowk sometime back, wherein she claimed that the Bombay riots were caused by leakage of some documents (pertaining to the findings of Babri Masjid Archeological survey). She did not substantiate what she said.
And, what is all this doubt about this writer`s safety in India? There is, i think, a greater risk of someone dying from boredom after reading Farzana Bibi`s wirtings than of her getting bumped off by a Hindu zealot!
Sridhar

rsaxena. . .
why don`t you just bugger the bloody hell off. . .why does it bother you whether i come or go. i am entitled to change my mind, you know. if it bothers you so much that i leave, and return and leave and return, then for goodness sakes why don`t you take a vacation and then return, no one but no one will hold it against you.

since you don`t have anything valuable or intelligent to contribute, all you can do is trash me, or temporal or farzana, and you know what, it gets really bloody old. . .why don`t you just grow the hell up. you`re such a hypocrite for wanting 12-head off chowk, when you`re just as much a menace as he is.

*with apologies to everyone especially harish, f, and the chowk staff*

re:#52 by RationalFaith
As i said sometimes ago, this woman is a Paki soul in an Indian body. Tough life.
Sridhar

Note from the editor:

This article was published because HN, a respected writer at Chowk, was addressing a larger issue of Indian majority views vs. Indian minority views. It was not intended to make FV, an equally respect writer, the topic of discussion.

This is a request to all interactors to examine the larger issue addressed by the writer instead of making Farzana Versey the subject of discussion.

Thank You

Guys

What`s up with this Farzana-bashing frenzy? Sure - she is screwed up a bit in her thinking and comes up with really weird statements, but chowk is full of such individuals. So what next - somebody would write an aritcle on Urstruly or Naqsabandhi or one of the many closet-mullahs and start a bashing session on them???

Enough. Let`s all go back to good old Paki-bashing ..... or something.

Ref plats8 #82

[Temporal (#12) is quite accurate in identifying the cross-currents in India. Unlike
what you and ali_1 think, Farzana is by and large physically as safe in Bombay
as anybody else.]

Oh, Farzana is much safer anywhere in India than Taslima is in Bangladesh or Salman Rushdie is anywhere on earth.

A minor fact that is usually ignored by the foaming-in-the-mouth brigade.

``Would you be as accomodating if I as AN INDIAN PAR EXCELLENCE constantly bash the Muslim society?``(Maheshg)

dear Maheshg -- of course I will be -- you WILL be one of my dearest friends for that --

btw aren`t you tired enough from watching -- the Islamic dirty laundry being washed -- on Chowk day and night -- you want more...:-)

Ref rsaxena #87

[i wonder what would happen if the 10 hindus who have not yet been driven out of pakistan got together and barbecued a train full of ali1`s a-la godhra style....would ali1`s relatives say ``aww shucks, it happens`` or would they wipe out the 10 hindus from the face of pakistan?...]

Well, one thing for sure. They would NOT be saying that the train was set on fire because a Hindu Tea Vendor`s daughter was kidnapped by the passengers.

;-)

#62 rsaxena

[``....if india is a sewer, what does that make pakistan``]

rsaxena, firstly, I still love you very much. Secondly, I`ll expose the reality of Pakistan when someone writes poetry in praise of Pakistan, and depicts it as some sort of glorious paradise. Let me concentrate on the ``vibrant`` India right now.......

# 45 m_souza

[“MAY OUR CLEAN COUNTRY OF PAKSITAN BE SAVED FROM THE sewer with billion pieces of turd THAT IS IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!!”]

Amen. We pray for this every day.

[“MAY ALL THE MUSLIMS FLOATING IN THAT INFIDEL TURD come floating and fall into OUR HOLY LAND OF PAKISTAN!!”]

Sorry, Pakistan is for Pakistanis. Indian muslims will create their new homeland WITHIN India.

PS. Please press your Caps Lock key before responding. Its on the left-middle side of your keyboard. Thank you.

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