Rethinking Plebiscite In Kashmir
Pervez Hoodbhoy December 25, 2003
#162 Posted by ajeya on March 9, 2005 11:10:33 pm
I once asked an Israeli friend of mine why, if Israelis are secular, Israel has to be a Jewish state by its constitution. His reply was that the muslim population in Israel multiplies at a far higher rate than the jewish population, and once the muslims gain majority, they`ll use democratic mechanisms to create an Islamic country under Allah, and impose Sharia laws on everybody.
And maybe in this day and age they won`t be able to apply the religiously mandated ``religious tax`` on minorities, but then you never know.
He gave the example of Kashmir, which for thousands of years was a Hindu country, the birthplace of great saints and scholars of hinduism, where, since the Muslim population, is beyond the tipping point, muslims all over the world have been demanding that DEMOCRATICALLY it should be an Islamic state, because the Hindu minorities` opinions can be voted out.
When Pakistanis and Kashmiris say that Kashmir should be for Kashmiris, they are actually saying ``Kashmir should be for Muslims``, because the Hindus sure do not agree.
I wonder what the gentle people on Chowk think about this.
And maybe in this day and age they won`t be able to apply the religiously mandated ``religious tax`` on minorities, but then you never know.
He gave the example of Kashmir, which for thousands of years was a Hindu country, the birthplace of great saints and scholars of hinduism, where, since the Muslim population, is beyond the tipping point, muslims all over the world have been demanding that DEMOCRATICALLY it should be an Islamic state, because the Hindu minorities` opinions can be voted out.
When Pakistanis and Kashmiris say that Kashmir should be for Kashmiris, they are actually saying ``Kashmir should be for Muslims``, because the Hindus sure do not agree.
I wonder what the gentle people on Chowk think about this.
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#161 Posted by mumbaikar on January 15, 2004 7:02:43 am
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#160 Posted by mumbaikar on January 6, 2004 8:32:19 pm
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#159 Posted by mumbaikar on January 5, 2004 7:48:19 am
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#158 Posted by mumbaikar on January 4, 2004 5:05:55 pm
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#157 Posted by mumbaikar on January 4, 2004 5:05:55 pm
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#156 Posted by ironman on January 3, 2004 3:11:41 pm
jamshed,
``How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.``
Well said! This brought tears to my eyes jamshed saab.
I think most indians are simply envious of their prosperous neighbour and will do anything to block pakistan`s steady progress.
Consider for example, the talented pakistani troupe performing at guantanamo bay...in their gay orange dresses. Their performance is viewed and applauded all over the world, bringing glory to pakistan...and the indians cannot stomach that.
I believe these talented pakistanis performers at g-bay have created a new dance in which you hop about on your haunches as if you wanted to walk and $hit at the same time...called pakistani bung-rah or something like that.
However, too much dance and music can become addictive...and rob the young nation of much needed fresh blood.
Therefore, much as you may disagree and protest...I beseech you to put aside your self-sacrifising urge...and please think of your sons and grandsons first. You don`t want to see them doing the bung-rah in orangies.
best wishes,
-shell head
``How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.``
Well said! This brought tears to my eyes jamshed saab.
I think most indians are simply envious of their prosperous neighbour and will do anything to block pakistan`s steady progress.
Consider for example, the talented pakistani troupe performing at guantanamo bay...in their gay orange dresses. Their performance is viewed and applauded all over the world, bringing glory to pakistan...and the indians cannot stomach that.
I believe these talented pakistanis performers at g-bay have created a new dance in which you hop about on your haunches as if you wanted to walk and $hit at the same time...called pakistani bung-rah or something like that.
However, too much dance and music can become addictive...and rob the young nation of much needed fresh blood.
Therefore, much as you may disagree and protest...I beseech you to put aside your self-sacrifising urge...and please think of your sons and grandsons first. You don`t want to see them doing the bung-rah in orangies.
best wishes,
-shell head
#155 Posted by gujjubania on January 3, 2004 1:13:13 am
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#154 Posted by jay on January 3, 2004 1:13:11 am
kashmir and muslims,
Pakistanis are so concerned about the indian muslims in kashmir. No one dares to ask the question, how come other indian muslims are not concerned.
The romairs of chowk have insisted that there is only a few cross border terrorism. The facts in the last few weeks is the proof, hardly any terrorist has been shot dead in kashmir, implying that they are all jihadists from pakistan.
Pakistanis are so concerned about the indian muslims in kashmir. No one dares to ask the question, how come other indian muslims are not concerned.
The romairs of chowk have insisted that there is only a few cross border terrorism. The facts in the last few weeks is the proof, hardly any terrorist has been shot dead in kashmir, implying that they are all jihadists from pakistan.
#153 Posted by rsridhar on January 2, 2004 7:24:36 pm
re: India`s economic development: the reality
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/02/int4.htm
``Hegemonic ambitions holding India back: experts
By Our Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI, Jan 1: India wants to become a super power by 2020, but it is being held back, according to its own socio-economic intellectuals, by its own hegemonic ambitions in the region , its massive energy deficit and its economy`s continued dependence on the monsoon.
India, at this point in its development, appears to be obsessed with China`s economic development and therefore, tends to make comparisons all the time with this larger neighbour of its, though its exports are still one per cent of world trade compared to four per cent of China`s.
The anticipated growth rate of seven per cent this year appears to have given India some kind of self-confidence and it has started flaunting it inside and outside the country.
However, it longs for support from the US and Japan in its bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security council. For the same reason, New Delhi wants to get the Kashmir issue resolved one way or the other at the earliest.
And it wants to approach the oncoming energy crisis with a set of innovative ideas, including gas pipelines passing through Pakistan from Iran and Turkmenistan. And finally it wants to build its conventional as well as non-conventional muscles in such a way as to send messages across the continents that a new superpower has arrived.
However, people here are also mindful that a seven per cent GDP growth rate comes after a year of 4.6% growth rate, preceded by a performance of 5.7 per cent and 3.9 per cent, which still shows the average growth rate to be in a low trajectory.
India`s tele-density is a mere 3.2 per 100, and with 58 million of 180 million households with gas connections suggesting that most of the households with an income under Rs 80,000 per annum are without cheap and subsidized energy.
Infant mortality in India is 69 per 1000, life expectancy is about 63 years, rate of literacy is recorded at 65 per cent, energy sufficiency is 527 billion kwh and consumption is a mere 379 kwh per capita. This makes the reality rather too unpalatable for those who are looking at 2020 with a lot of anticipation.
India, however, ranks third with arms transfer agreements valued at eight billion dollars during 1999-2002. India`s reserves have gone up to 100 billion dollars - almost equal to the import bill for 15 months. But the shortfall in infrastructure, particularly in power and education, is said to be staggering.
And with about 26 per cent of the population still living inpoverty, stagnating rates of unemployment, and its heavy dependence on agriculture, which still amounts to 25 per cent of GDP and 70 per cent of employment, means that a bad monsoon can nullify the gains of the current improvements.
The country continues to remain politically dependent on subsidies, swelling fiscal deficits that limit growth and investment in health and education. India does appear poised to reap more from the FDI in the coming years. Until now the Indian diaspora has accounted far less than 10 per cent of the foreign money flowing to India.
But now it seems that the Indians living abroad have understood the potential of their mother country and are coming back in hordes looking for investment avenues. And India hopes that with their help the country could become the world`s technological lab.
A lot of India is shining these days, with Bangalore, Hyderabad and even parts of New Delhi giving a look of having reached. However, Indians are still not talking about takeoffs, but congratulating each other that perhaps the train is all set to leave the station.
On Jan 10, India is hosting a conference of its NRIs (non- resident Indians) in New Delhi and this meet is expected to yield results that are expected to take India to heights it has never seen before. ``
It is worth reiterating that India`s agriculture accounts for 25% of India`s GDP and 70% of employment. A single bad monsoon brings down the GDP growth drastically. India`s GDP growth was good in 2003 because of a good monsoon.
So, is India shining?
May be. More likely, the high profile Ads in some Indian newspapers are.
Sridhar
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/02/int4.htm
``Hegemonic ambitions holding India back: experts
By Our Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI, Jan 1: India wants to become a super power by 2020, but it is being held back, according to its own socio-economic intellectuals, by its own hegemonic ambitions in the region , its massive energy deficit and its economy`s continued dependence on the monsoon.
India, at this point in its development, appears to be obsessed with China`s economic development and therefore, tends to make comparisons all the time with this larger neighbour of its, though its exports are still one per cent of world trade compared to four per cent of China`s.
The anticipated growth rate of seven per cent this year appears to have given India some kind of self-confidence and it has started flaunting it inside and outside the country.
However, it longs for support from the US and Japan in its bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security council. For the same reason, New Delhi wants to get the Kashmir issue resolved one way or the other at the earliest.
And it wants to approach the oncoming energy crisis with a set of innovative ideas, including gas pipelines passing through Pakistan from Iran and Turkmenistan. And finally it wants to build its conventional as well as non-conventional muscles in such a way as to send messages across the continents that a new superpower has arrived.
However, people here are also mindful that a seven per cent GDP growth rate comes after a year of 4.6% growth rate, preceded by a performance of 5.7 per cent and 3.9 per cent, which still shows the average growth rate to be in a low trajectory.
India`s tele-density is a mere 3.2 per 100, and with 58 million of 180 million households with gas connections suggesting that most of the households with an income under Rs 80,000 per annum are without cheap and subsidized energy.
Infant mortality in India is 69 per 1000, life expectancy is about 63 years, rate of literacy is recorded at 65 per cent, energy sufficiency is 527 billion kwh and consumption is a mere 379 kwh per capita. This makes the reality rather too unpalatable for those who are looking at 2020 with a lot of anticipation.
India, however, ranks third with arms transfer agreements valued at eight billion dollars during 1999-2002. India`s reserves have gone up to 100 billion dollars - almost equal to the import bill for 15 months. But the shortfall in infrastructure, particularly in power and education, is said to be staggering.
And with about 26 per cent of the population still living inpoverty, stagnating rates of unemployment, and its heavy dependence on agriculture, which still amounts to 25 per cent of GDP and 70 per cent of employment, means that a bad monsoon can nullify the gains of the current improvements.
The country continues to remain politically dependent on subsidies, swelling fiscal deficits that limit growth and investment in health and education. India does appear poised to reap more from the FDI in the coming years. Until now the Indian diaspora has accounted far less than 10 per cent of the foreign money flowing to India.
But now it seems that the Indians living abroad have understood the potential of their mother country and are coming back in hordes looking for investment avenues. And India hopes that with their help the country could become the world`s technological lab.
A lot of India is shining these days, with Bangalore, Hyderabad and even parts of New Delhi giving a look of having reached. However, Indians are still not talking about takeoffs, but congratulating each other that perhaps the train is all set to leave the station.
On Jan 10, India is hosting a conference of its NRIs (non- resident Indians) in New Delhi and this meet is expected to yield results that are expected to take India to heights it has never seen before. ``
It is worth reiterating that India`s agriculture accounts for 25% of India`s GDP and 70% of employment. A single bad monsoon brings down the GDP growth drastically. India`s GDP growth was good in 2003 because of a good monsoon.
So, is India shining?
May be. More likely, the high profile Ads in some Indian newspapers are.
Sridhar
#152 Posted by anew on January 2, 2004 7:24:36 pm
#150 by gujjubania on January 2, 2004 7:49am PT
Conclusion : India will only get better , while Pakistan will only get worse.
Yes, India and Israel will `get better` and Kashmiris and Palestinians will `get worse`.
Conclusion : India will only get better , while Pakistan will only get worse.
Yes, India and Israel will `get better` and Kashmiris and Palestinians will `get worse`.
#151 Posted by jamshednazar on January 2, 2004 3:22:21 pm
Dear Hoodbhoy!
A decent postion from the pakistani perspective indeeed. However, you have not considered the Kashmiris themselves ... they are the ones who own this land... not us in Islamabad or New Delhi. The solution of Kashmir will come out of the Valley itself, not through the drawing rooms of our capitals. Kashmiris have proved that they have a will and self respect that no one can steal from them. All praise to Kashmiris!!
The latest round of Kashmiri struggle that started in 1989 was a movement for the independance of Kashmir, and it was appropriate at the time with the breakup of the Soviet Union and a new emerging world order. Many other nations were able to revive their national identity. Indian Kashmiris have not achieved this indepence. This is a fact.
However, in the last fifteen years, the atrocities that have been committed against Kashmiris have created an intensity of hate that is not going to be wished away by Islamabad, New Delhi or Washington. Would people in Iraq forget the bombing, the mid night raids, the shoot outs every day? Would people in Palestine forget the brutality of the IDF? How can you really forget?
Yes, some funky engineeer in banglore is happy, but the guy who is beaten up in a lock up in Srinagar is not happy at all!! Rather, he is waiting to get out and pay back.
How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.
Not to say that Pakistani military has been an angel, considering what they did in Bangla Desh. But the fact is, when Indians beat up people in Kashmir, it is national interest, and when Kashmiris blow up some indian military installations - it is subversion, terrorism, jihadism, ``ghuspethiyeh``, cross border infiltration etc etc. But the reality is
who cares really? do the resisters in Iraq care about what Fox News says about them? No Sir
they do not have that kind of time... they are busy planning their next attacks. Likewise, as recent attacks on Musharraf exibit, Kashmiris are determined to take on who ever it is.... Indain parliament or Musharraf .. who ever pushes them to the line... is going to get some resistance pushed back at them.
Resistance towards an aggressor is a noble deed. Resistance is not a choice, it becomes mandatory - to protect life, liberty and freedom from the cruelty of those in power. ``Jihad`` itself is maligned by many - but what is it really? Israeli settlers have taken over palestinian lands and thrown them out of their homes, now when the palestinians resist, they are called ``jihadis / terrorists``. The same goes for Kashmir, or Chechia, or Iraq or Bosnia. Who ever resists the domination and exploitation of the occupier is a labelled a ``terrorist``.
Badmash / ``Agressor`` is never this sweet, nice IT engineer writing ``patents`` for a foreign multinat. (smile ... anyone??). Agressors are politicans, military, police and the mafia that is controlling the occupation - be it in Iraq or Palestine or Kashmir , because for them it is a matter of resources, land grab and colonization.
It is upto Kashmiris to decide what they want to do about the Indian occupation and brutality in the Kashmir valley. But to say that the Kashmir issue is upto Vajpayee or Musharraf or Bush is total nonsense. Kashmiris who have lost brothers and sisters, parents and jobs, and homes and have been beaten, persecuted and molested, -- a single drop of self respect in them will require them to resist and restore their honor.
Let me tell you Indian guys, or for that matter, apologetic pakistani drawing room intellectuals, ``Jihad`` is about self respect - it is not about IT money or dollars or geaostrategy etc etc.
Anyone who has seen exploitation or been through persecution can tell you that Resistance to exploitation is not a matter of choice..... to be or not to be ..... Resistance / Jihad is fundamental to human dignity.
Jamshed Nazar
A decent postion from the pakistani perspective indeeed. However, you have not considered the Kashmiris themselves ... they are the ones who own this land... not us in Islamabad or New Delhi. The solution of Kashmir will come out of the Valley itself, not through the drawing rooms of our capitals. Kashmiris have proved that they have a will and self respect that no one can steal from them. All praise to Kashmiris!!
The latest round of Kashmiri struggle that started in 1989 was a movement for the independance of Kashmir, and it was appropriate at the time with the breakup of the Soviet Union and a new emerging world order. Many other nations were able to revive their national identity. Indian Kashmiris have not achieved this indepence. This is a fact.
However, in the last fifteen years, the atrocities that have been committed against Kashmiris have created an intensity of hate that is not going to be wished away by Islamabad, New Delhi or Washington. Would people in Iraq forget the bombing, the mid night raids, the shoot outs every day? Would people in Palestine forget the brutality of the IDF? How can you really forget?
Yes, some funky engineeer in banglore is happy, but the guy who is beaten up in a lock up in Srinagar is not happy at all!! Rather, he is waiting to get out and pay back.
How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.
Not to say that Pakistani military has been an angel, considering what they did in Bangla Desh. But the fact is, when Indians beat up people in Kashmir, it is national interest, and when Kashmiris blow up some indian military installations - it is subversion, terrorism, jihadism, ``ghuspethiyeh``, cross border infiltration etc etc. But the reality is
who cares really? do the resisters in Iraq care about what Fox News says about them? No Sir
they do not have that kind of time... they are busy planning their next attacks. Likewise, as recent attacks on Musharraf exibit, Kashmiris are determined to take on who ever it is.... Indain parliament or Musharraf .. who ever pushes them to the line... is going to get some resistance pushed back at them.
Resistance towards an aggressor is a noble deed. Resistance is not a choice, it becomes mandatory - to protect life, liberty and freedom from the cruelty of those in power. ``Jihad`` itself is maligned by many - but what is it really? Israeli settlers have taken over palestinian lands and thrown them out of their homes, now when the palestinians resist, they are called ``jihadis / terrorists``. The same goes for Kashmir, or Chechia, or Iraq or Bosnia. Who ever resists the domination and exploitation of the occupier is a labelled a ``terrorist``.
Badmash / ``Agressor`` is never this sweet, nice IT engineer writing ``patents`` for a foreign multinat. (smile ... anyone??). Agressors are politicans, military, police and the mafia that is controlling the occupation - be it in Iraq or Palestine or Kashmir , because for them it is a matter of resources, land grab and colonization.
It is upto Kashmiris to decide what they want to do about the Indian occupation and brutality in the Kashmir valley. But to say that the Kashmir issue is upto Vajpayee or Musharraf or Bush is total nonsense. Kashmiris who have lost brothers and sisters, parents and jobs, and homes and have been beaten, persecuted and molested, -- a single drop of self respect in them will require them to resist and restore their honor.
Let me tell you Indian guys, or for that matter, apologetic pakistani drawing room intellectuals, ``Jihad`` is about self respect - it is not about IT money or dollars or geaostrategy etc etc.
Anyone who has seen exploitation or been through persecution can tell you that Resistance to exploitation is not a matter of choice..... to be or not to be ..... Resistance / Jihad is fundamental to human dignity.
Jamshed Nazar
#150 Posted by gujjubania on January 2, 2004 7:49:23 am
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#149 Posted by anew on January 2, 2004 12:10:41 am
#148 by gujjubania on January 1, 2004 11:31pm PT
Come out of the misleading numbers and percentages. Why 97% of GDP can`t feed millions of Indians proper meal and provide some shelter?
Come out of the misleading numbers and percentages. Why 97% of GDP can`t feed millions of Indians proper meal and provide some shelter?
#148 Posted by mumbaikar on January 1, 2004 11:31:03 pm
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#147 Posted by gujjubania on January 1, 2004 11:31:03 pm
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