A Fool’s Errand

Hello FR Khan,

If the world ran on the whims and fancies, however logical, of poets, thinkers and writers, then Africa would not have caved in to the Europeans, nor the Mayans.

What is happening in the India-Pakistan tango is now the ``oil & natural gas`` swirl, sponsored by the new internet era colonials, as different from the Dubai / Singapore / Sharjah / Bangkok / Colombo / Kuala ``hip-hop``, sponsored by the old high margin traders.

Will anybody care two hoots about your or my living or dying memories, if their pots and pans look like being not as empty on the next day?

So write away, Sir, as did maybe the Aztecs, while those who know how to move and learn from the lessons of Beirut and Singapore and many points in between rush out to set themselves and their shops up to cater for reality.

That reality is gas in Godavari and Bangladesh. That reality is pipeline from Iran to India through Pakistan. That reality is infotech sans borders where the human being is plentiful. That reality is automobile components and engineering. That reality is bread basket from wastelands. That reality is hospitals to the world.

Get real, FR Khan, and before trying to understand India-Pakistan, try to, maybe, understand the oil economy worldwide?

SAARC is a pipe dream... it will never come true... the warm fuzzy and tingly feeling that one gets is nothing but self denial. Our future lies in trusting our selves and our ability... but it seems that all we do is keep looking outwards towards our saviors... be it CENTO, SEATO, OIC, RCD, D8 , THE COMMON WEALTH, or the SAARC....

In an ever competitive globalized world... the nature of the competition is cut throat... every country for itself... we shall soon see the dismantling of the EU.

digit bhai, you wrote:
Don`t see how it can work for the masses, though...

I hate to sound elitist or anything but why should EVERYONE have a degree?! I usually vote Labour but I am totally against such stupid liberal policies such as Blair`s target of 50% of population having degrees. This broadening of education has led to an undeniable drop in standards across the board. Now every tom, dick and harry has a degree and most of them are not worth the piece of paper they are written on. It was much better 100 years ago when only 5% of people had degrees and a degree really MEANT something. And with such managable numbers individualised education such as was traditional in the islamic world and old europe too before the 20th century and as is being espoused by imam hamza becomes viable again. Only the best should go to higher education and we need to reintroduce th concept of vocational courses for those not bright enough to go to Uni. Something akin to the Guild system of Ottoman Turkey...I am probably voting Tory next year!

re: carpejuglum # 6

With all due respect, groundswells of popular opinion mean absolutely nothing in the Indian and Pakistani political lexicon. In this case, it is the opinion of a very selective minority, on both sides, which will determine the outcome. The need of the hour and the demand of the occassion is not a cry of fraternity, but for an institutional mechanism, which sustains this process to its logical end.

Pakistani politics has no knowledge of an institutional infrastructure. Pakistani politics are personality driven. They are not affected by the opening of travel routes or easing of border resistrictions, but are motivated by the needs of the core group, which supports the person at the apex of political power in Pakistan. I see no reason to rejoice, because what both India and Pakistan have embarked upon is not a 100 meter sprint, but a marathon and the race has simply began and the end of the race, has not been reached, yet.

Where I agree with you is that it is a good start, but that is all it is - a start and not an end.

Ciao

re: nasah # 1

The problem is entrenched in the mode of thinking, which exists in Pakistan and India and which sees each other as foes and not friends. The problem lies in the institutional distrust of the Indian external affairs` views about Pakistan and in the Pakistani foreign office`s views about the intentions of India.The problem is evident in the jinoistic media`s confrontational postures in India and Pakistan and in the popular culture of both nations, which demonize one another. The problem lies in the distorted version of history, which is politically tailored in both India and Pakistan to justify 1947. The obstacles are in rooted in the bigoted and flawed, with hatred filled attitudes on both side of the Radcliffe`s line of division. That line on a map did not just divide a land; it divided a common history, a common existence and a common reality and in its place, created two nations held hostage to the whims of anger and impluses of resentment.

For peace to really exist, there has to be radical paradigmic shift in the mental conceptualization of Indians and Pakistanis vis-a-vis each other. There has to be an institutional change in the manner in, which India and Pakistan think and view each other. The politicans who signed this, so called historic agreement, have to convince their domestic constituencies that this, indeed, is the path of rationality and prosperity. There are vested interests on both sides, who have deeply and passionately invested in the caus celebres of the region, which divide the two nations. They are not simply going to roll over and give up the chase! They are going to fight tooth and nail, for what they consider to be their quest for a holy grail. The well honed intincts of the Indians would recoil at the thought to trusting a Pakistani`s word and a Pakistani`s intinct would be to disbelieve the words of an Indian.

The signing of the declaration was the easy part. The real litmus test will come in its implementation. Given the nature of the beast in India-Pakistani relations, the historic instinct of distrust will perpetually over power the logic of cooperation and it will require a force of irrevocable will to ignore the ingrained instinct and trust the reciprocity, that needs to exist to bring about any emperical change in the qualitive equation of the two nation`s relationships.

I am not optimistic.

Ciao

Its strange after how much I badly want Kashmir from India and how much I debate about Kashmir I can not hate India or Indians! I am of Indian Origin ! My grand fater migrated from UP.. Pakistan gave us everything he says ! and what really Pakistan gave us is the sense of security ....but thats a different topic comming back on Indo-Pak relations I feel more close Indians then Arabs ...why ? I always asked myself? is it the language? not really but the common things between us.
Nukes sure insure Pakistan`s Security no doubt about it!
and if case you are wondering what happened to my g`pa ..he ended up as Core Commander of a very sensitive city in Pakistan (what could anyone else want? No AUDITS)

Khan Sahib

I understand why you feel pessimistic...the last few peace attempts have not really led to anyway and if anything were soon followed by the deepest low the relationship between our nations have reached.

However this time, in India as well as Pakistan where I was recently there is a marked groundswell of goodwill and desire to move forward..in term`s of politics...if Vajpayee is definately eyeing history..

I dont really hope for a permanent peace, but even a peace process has its benefits. eg the cease fire in Sri Lanka which has allowed normal lives to continue. So let there be a cease fire on the border, let us move freely to each other`s nations., let us trade...atleast its a start.

foundations of peace,

All of the talk about ido pak peace is based on the notion that peace is something that can be enforced through an agrrement, as the out com of talks, even when it is a composite one.
Peace is actually an outcome of a situation where the two countries share the same values, hopes and aspirations. It is not something that the leaders design and enforce, it evolves through time over a shared values. Communism had to collapse before there could be us - russian peace.

One only has to read a column in todays dawn by cowasjee about the education system in pakistan. Romair, tahmeds and ferzoks of chowk, iwth all their exposure to the west should have been the ones to criticise and call for change of pak k for kafir education. None of the above dared to criticise the pak system, they have only tried to malign me. What is significant is that cowasjee can see it, because he is not a product of the k for kafir education, he has a different religion. No muslim dares to criticise the jihadic culture, the TNT and the k for kafir education that has guided the children of TNT.
The fundamental valuses and hopes of pakistanis are different from indians. So many have posted that jihadis are the products of poverty. India has numerucally more poor than pakistan, has as many muslims, but not even a single indian muslim found his way to guantanamo bay. That is the essece of the difference between india and paksitan, indian muslims and pak muslims, indian values and pak values.
All this talk will come to nothing, iraquisation is the only way that the vaues of a society can be changed.

nash 1,

I am happy to see your post, the acceptance that only way pakistan will be allowed to keep the bomb is based on a good behaviour certificate from india. One for each pakistani, I am ready o give it to two pakistanis on chowk.

there was a talk show at geo during the saarc summit in which a some indian and pakistani journalists had been invited. after the initial sweet talk they were shouting and screaming at each other, hurling accusations at eachother, trying to prove the other party guilty. and i thot to myself, this is how indians and pakistanis will always be.

if there cud be friendship and trust between the two, why would there be two countries?

nasah

Whilst I agree with you that Pakistan and India should be friends I think it is totally unrealistic that they will EVER form a defence bloc or co-operate to the level of say the USA and UK.

I keep hearing cynicism about SAARC and in general about the peace process and given the past record it`s fairly understandable. But sooner or later both countries are going to have to start acting like nations rather than squabbling like harpies. India has without doubt made progress and offers dynamism and hope to it`s citizens. It`s a country which is going places although it has to acknowledge that there are still problems. Socially most people still don`t lead lives much different to Pakistanis and share pretty much the same outlooks. Having a hostile neighbour is not in India`s interests.

Pakistanis on the other hand have every right to question why they would probably be better off as Indians than they are currently as Pakistanis. Other than the maulvis and the military, the rest have pretty much drawn the short straw. It`s the citizens of both our countries that suffer as a result. Bombs which go off in India or Pakistan don`t do either of us any good and jihadis responsible need to be stamped out. Osama bin Laden should go fight his battles in Saudi Arabia where his extremist ideology springs from. As a Pakistani I don`t want to see my country become a basket case stuck in the middle ages.

Nasah # 1

A gree with you 100%.

Pakistan was badly cornered & on the verge of isolation again - political instability, nuclear power, low literacy, extremism, doddering economy - may be I am a bit harsh - but its refuge lied under a regional umbrella - SAARC - this was quite clear to many sensible people since few years - but it took Military & Mulla to understand it almost at the nick of time. Just normalization of its relations with India kills many of its headaches - (a subject by itself)

It suites India as well in many significant ways - cooling down of the Kashmir melting pot, its membership in the UN Veto club, its access towards East - Afghanistan, Iran, Central Asia - a broader trade area and finally just the simple feel-good factor for over a 1 billion people.

For the a common man in South Asia - it is a good news in too many ways to describe.

F R Khan

This time it is likely to succeed because the actors involved are the HARD LINERS - BJP Vs PAK ARMY - the guys who used to put the spanner previously. Also, there is no other CHOICE.

my dear FR Khan sahib -- no need to sound so pessimistic --

thru SAARC 2004 if nothing else -- the process of Desensitization has started on both sides -- the unthinkables are slowly becoming thinkables -- rigid positions are changing on both sides --

Nuclear Pakisan`s ultimate safety resides in friendship with India -- not the USA -- together India and Pakistan can take on any power`s pressure --

the realization has slowly seeped into the Dullard Brained Army Men of Pakistan that in their relationships with the West -- either it will be the relationship of Master and the Serf -- or NO Muslim Army will be allowed to play with the Islamic Bomb -- ever...

because the West is bent upon preventing the acquisition of BOMB by ANY Islamic Country -- and to do that it can go EVEN to the length of attacking and occupying the country --

Pakistan`s name is on the top of the list -- thanks to Afghanistan and thanks to India`s possession of the BOMB Pakistan has temporarily escaped the white man`s wrath --

the Nuclear BOMB will remain White -- may be a little Yellow -- but NO WAY -- BROWN or Black...that much is for sure -- to ensure that it doesn`t happen -- the West will rain thirty thousands bombs in 48 hours......on any Muslim country that dares to dream that wet dream

the ONLY respectable way Pakistan`s Army can keep the BOMB and EAT it too -- is by forming a solid United Front with India -- not China.......China may come later as the tripartite.....but right now the two brothers have to bury their hatchets and face the power brokers of the Western world .....politically as well as economically....together...and in tandem with the other South Asian countries....

SAARC 2004 may be the first step in that direction....