A Waste of National Resource

This has not been answered as yet. Are you sleeping well. Is your heartbeat normal? Be honest to yourself and answer it. It will restore your health.

You ARE wrestling whether to bacome a muslim or not (openly)--Just do it!

#107 by echoboom on February 3, 2004 12:45pm PT
Whereas It is heartening to note that you have the honesty to admit that like me, you too, include yourself among the class which is responsible for the mess we have created for the noble and God-fearing Pakistanis.

The others still have to be shown this light. The crows who think they look like swans (attire) and sing like nightingales (accent).

Please answer this so that a burden is lifted off your shoulders and you can go to sleep.
Does ANYONE has the answer? No wonder you guys don`t like the face in the mirror.

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#55 by echoboom on January 31, 2004 3:39pm PT
This being Madressa board.
Reprodued from Omar Qureishi board, where it awaited unanswered.

For F.R.Khan in particular:

Name EVEN ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements

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#67 by echoboom on January 29, 2004 12:24pm PT
FerozeK:64

Your frustration and depression is understandabe. Still fiercely guarding american-accent?
Ears cocked to whatever is happening in Dixie? Still avoiding masjids and maulanaas.

Worry not. You WILL be re-nativised (assimilated? mainstreamed?) alongwith other english-accent-schools ( I wish I could call them madrassas but that would be elevating their status).

Name ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements.

Let me elaborate Shaukat Aziz vs Agha Hasan Abadi.(madressa)--(you get the drift?)

now more from maktab and madrassas: abdul salaam, Quadeer Khan, Dr. Ali Rajput, abdul sattar edhi, Faiz, Iqbal, Pitras , Quasmi, Manto etc etc (you keep thinking of many others in ANY field and give me just ONE name) who is from accented-schools who can match them)

How does it feel to be in the gutter now. Yes I am in that gutter of the colonised-culture and that is THE issue here.

re: yasser # 122

Yasser, you are indeed lucky if you have few problems living in Pakistan. Unlike you, I cannot make a similar claim, because my personal levels of comfort are not a barometer of the levels of happiness in Pakistan.

As I said before, you and I will disagree on this issue.

I am perfectly happy living in Pakistan and compared to the majority of Pakistanis, I am lucky, but I am the exception and not the norm in Pakistan. My economic bracket and education and life style is not reflective of the average Pakistani and just because I do not have any personal problems, does not mean that Pakistan has no problems.

Ignoring the problems will not solve the problems magically and that if we do not solve our problems or admit our wrongs and learn from our past mistakes, we will continue to persist with bad policies, which will continue to harm the interests of Pakistan.

Hence, the iron law of diminishing returns will continue to haunt us.

My views may paint a lopsided view of Pakistan, because I feel that the Pakistan has followed more bad policy decisons than good policy decisons and in balance, the scales tilt against Pakistan.

Pakistan will indeed survive the both of us and it will improve when the citizens of Pakistan take an active interest in its well being and point out its flaws. The only way we can correct the problems of Pakistan is to admit it has problems and we have to openly discuss them and admit them and not pretend that all is fine and glorious in Pakistan.

Ciao

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Ah ha so now all Pakistanis are idiots.. wonderful.
Fortunately I know enough Indians to know that not everyone in India is a `klunk` like you. If only you would not waste time here on Chowk convincing a stupid Paki like me of the greatness of bharat mata... maybe you would find a way to feed those starving 300 million people in your country.

Even a stupid Paki like me has to go to sleep some time.

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Gujjubania ... instead of proving your inferiority complex to us why don`t you please come up with a way to feed those ``260 Million`` people that live in the most abominable conditions in your country?? And stop with the multiple posts... As for shangrila... you should ask this from all the Indian tourists that seem to be pouring in ...

So tell me why does it burn you up to hear the truth about Pakistan?

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Feroz... dear friend... screw taliban, international affairs, constitutions and nuclear proliferation... tell me this ... what problems do you face living in Pakistan? Personally I have very few... call this fantasy bubble call it anything... I am happy where I am.

I think by not mentioning this and always mentioning the negative, and making absolutist statements like ... `this is wrong` ... `that is right` waghaira waghaira ... you give a lopsided view of the country. My question is `Will you rather be some where else?`

-YLH

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re: Yasser

Pakistan is suffering from a law of diminishing returns, because Pakistan has a very bad habit of reinforcing failure. Pakistan just does not know or understand when to quit a bad policy, which instead of helping Pakistan`s interests, ends up harming it. We supported the Taliban even though the Taliban were internationally isolated and we continued to do till unbearable international pressure forced to stop supporting them. We could have supported the Taliban to a point, but we continued beyond the ``fail safe`` till our association with the Taliban actually ended up threatening to undermine our own security interests.

I can use Pakistan support of militants in Kashmir as another example of reinforcing failure till those militants started to threaten the very state, which was supporting them and in the process, our support for militants nearly, once again, isolated and in fact, undermined our stance on Kashmir. In education, we are reinforcing failure, because we seeking to reform the education system, which will be a failure, because the education system in Pakistan does not need reform as much as it needs to be re-structured.

In the case of A. Q. Khan, Pakistan denied the accusations and then, under pressure and undeniable evidence, admitted that it was guilty of proliferating nuclear technology. Then if that was not a worse case situation, we once again reinforced failure and pardoned A. Q. Khan and in doing so, suggested to the world and to the public of Pakistan that it is perfectly fine to the break the law in Pakistan and not be punished. The act of pardoning A. Q. Khan will be an example of diminishing returns, because the next person will see this as example and invitation to break the law. Instead of stopping such irresponsible behavior in our public officials, we have simply encouraged it and the more people persist in such a conduct, the less Pakistan will benefit in the long run.

Pakistan, as a state, is malfuctioning and it has no policy, which is capable of generating good options for Pakistan, because we are fatally cursed with this myopia of continually and stubbornly persisting with bad policies, which have negative implications for Pakistan.

You and I will agree to disagree on this issue. You have called my views absurd and that is your opinion and I respect it. Likewise, I find your refusal to admit the reality of Pakistan as a fine example of existing within a fantasy bubble, which seems absurd from a person of your qualifications. As to being a sane academic, I never claimed those qualifications. Absurdity has a grain of truth in it and absurdity and the willingness to tolerate it can create a healthy debate, which can only increase knowledge and understanding. Irrationality is a question of perspective and different perspectives are more valuable than a single persepctive. My statements might sound arrogant to you and your calling them arrogant do not defeat the reasons behind my statement, as much as they hint of your own arrogance based on the certainity of your own knowledge.

Ciao

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ferozk

I never understood how a reasonable sane academic like yourself can make arrogantly absolute statements. Your statement is abstract and a matter of perspective.

George Bernard Shaw in 1948 congratulated Nehru on his up and coming inheritance of Pakistan few days after Jinnah passed away. Orriana Fallaci declared that Bhutto is the only hope for Pakistan... if he goes Pakistan goes.. Pakistan survived both Bernard Shaw and Ms. Fallaci ... it will survive your `realism` as well.

Ballu Khan

Secularism has had only one meaning and that meaning is what I am implying: The separation of church and state... it has no other meaning so don`t confuse the issue.

Nation is an imagined concept... to some Sindhis or Punjabis are a nation, to others Muslims are a nation, I only believe in Pakistan as a nation. That is me, but I am willing to accept that there are different concepts of nationhood... (Jawaharlal Nehru came to this conclusion late in life when he admitted that from different angles nationhood might have different meanings.)

How I want to accept violent Jehadis or tolerate them is beyond me ... if you could show me one statement that I have made to that end I`ll be grateful.


Rsidhar,

You know I don`t like getting into these Pakistan India matches... I have in the past posted about India`s growing economy and its potential... and I do believe that it will be one of the largest economies...


But can you explain this complex that people like Gujju bania suffer from? I love living in Pakistan and I have a comfortable life style... if I mention that why does it bite people like Gujjubania in rear end ? Did I say anything against India till he initiated an unprovoked attack for no ryhme or reason... methinks something is amiss.... is this some sort of an inferiority complex...


Gujjubania...

I don`t have time to look at your long and pointless posts.

Please get over your inferiority complex.

-YLH

re:#105 by Mantolives
Even though i myself do not buy this non-sense that ``India is shining``, which is a mere BJP electoral slogan, there is more than a grain of truth when Gujjubania says India is developing. It indeed is. The question is: are the benefits accruing to all sections of the society or are only the rich getting richer? It does look like the middle class is the main beneficiary of free market, what with its emphasis on education and IT skills. I will be a lot more excited when India makes the necessary changes in the Agricultural sector to free that sector from bureacracy so that its productivity rises manyfolds. Agriculture accounts for 25% of India`s GDP while IT and ITES account for a mere 2-3%.
The years of slumber, as you call it in the first several decades, were really one of building institutions. IITs, IIMs did not land from the heavens. It took years of nurturing. I dare say Pak cannot name even one institution of the calbre of IIT today.
Sridhar

re: Yasser

A simple misunderstanding can cause so much delight! (lol)

I am sorry that you were not keen on the statement about diminishing returns vis-a-vis Pakistan, but the statement is true and I stand by that observation.

Ciao

#110 by Mantolives on February 3, 2004 11:34pm PT
Can you clarify your predicament? Do you want a re-interpretation of ``secularism`` which would not hurt the sensibilities of the ordinary Islamist?
Do you want to create arguments for why Violent Islamist Jehadis should be tolerated by the modern States?
Do you think that Romair`s arguments are so devastating that one requires re-interpretation of secularism?
Why do you want to create a naturalist theory of ``Nation`` as a ``naturally-given`` and separate it from the ``State`` as an artificial construct?? Don`t you want to re-assert the ``naturalism`` and ``essentialism`` that is so pervasive in religious theologies about Nation and human essenses as ``givens`` of this world created by a metaphysical God?
Please clarify your posuition as a ``secularist``??

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