2004 Democratic Presidential Candidates and Pakistan
Armughan Javaid January 30, 2004
#46 Posted by Ralph on February 6, 2004 10:48:51 pm
wahi_to #43
``genetically superior Indians...``
Such racist thinking is what you need to give up. Indians are not genetically superior to Pakistanis. So genetically, Pakistanis should be able to produce at least as good leaders as India has produced and still does.
Once you stop blaming the inferiority of your genes for the absence of good leaders in Pakistan, you will see that leaders are shaped by their ideological milieus. In Pakistan`s case, the bitter truth is, that ideological milieu stinks to high heavens.
If you find it easier to blame your genes than acknowledge the stink of your ideology, be my guest.
``genetically superior Indians...``
Such racist thinking is what you need to give up. Indians are not genetically superior to Pakistanis. So genetically, Pakistanis should be able to produce at least as good leaders as India has produced and still does.
Once you stop blaming the inferiority of your genes for the absence of good leaders in Pakistan, you will see that leaders are shaped by their ideological milieus. In Pakistan`s case, the bitter truth is, that ideological milieu stinks to high heavens.
If you find it easier to blame your genes than acknowledge the stink of your ideology, be my guest.
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#45 Posted by gujjubania on February 5, 2004 7:06:01 am
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#44 Posted by ballukhan on February 3, 2004 7:01:27 am
#32 by wahi_to on February 1, 2004 2:47pm PT
``...also do not forget that after 9/11 India was behaving like a desperate young girl wanting to be screwed by ameican studs. use our bases, use our army, use anything but dear sir bush please use us. ...``
Indeed, that was shameful on part of the BJP govt.
But this vision of nukes in the hands of sanghis is another of the imaginary demons that are being conjured by Islamists in Pakistan- Remember it was Mush who threatened first use and not the NDA government- in this sense I think NDA govt did a fine job in showing restraint - although some Islamists consider this as a sign of weakness on part of Indian hindoos and thump their chests with great pride!!!!
``...also do not forget that after 9/11 India was behaving like a desperate young girl wanting to be screwed by ameican studs. use our bases, use our army, use anything but dear sir bush please use us. ...``
Indeed, that was shameful on part of the BJP govt.
But this vision of nukes in the hands of sanghis is another of the imaginary demons that are being conjured by Islamists in Pakistan- Remember it was Mush who threatened first use and not the NDA government- in this sense I think NDA govt did a fine job in showing restraint - although some Islamists consider this as a sign of weakness on part of Indian hindoos and thump their chests with great pride!!!!
#43 Posted by wahi_to on February 2, 2004 11:34:33 pm
layman #42,
good point. i was reading interview of retired COAS of India during december 2003. following is what he had to say:
***
He dismissed any notion that nuclear threat from Pakistan was one of the reasons why India refrained from going to war.
“Pakistan’s response had been adequately studied and factored in. No, they had nothing. We had them by the tail,” he said adding “nange the woh (they were exposed)”. The General said that any nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan will not last beyond one strike each.
(http://www.deccan.com/headlines/lead4.shtml)
***
ralph # 41,
i really wonder how come genetically superior indians have 400 million living below the poverty line, 50% illiteracy, asia`s largest slum (dharavi)..................
good point. i was reading interview of retired COAS of India during december 2003. following is what he had to say:
***
He dismissed any notion that nuclear threat from Pakistan was one of the reasons why India refrained from going to war.
“Pakistan’s response had been adequately studied and factored in. No, they had nothing. We had them by the tail,” he said adding “nange the woh (they were exposed)”. The General said that any nuclear conflict between India and Pakistan will not last beyond one strike each.
(http://www.deccan.com/headlines/lead4.shtml)
***
ralph # 41,
i really wonder how come genetically superior indians have 400 million living below the poverty line, 50% illiteracy, asia`s largest slum (dharavi)..................
#42 Posted by Layman on February 2, 2004 8:15:21 pm
#32 wahi_to:
``i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act. ``
Why do you say that the `sanghis` need a strong majority in parliament to `rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis`. Did the BJP have a majority when it decided to conduct nuclear tests in 1998? Did it have a majority when it decided to station the Indian army on the border in preparation for war after Dec 13, 2001? Do not think that BJP not having a majority has saved us from war or whatever. On the other hand, having tried nuclearisation and mobilisation of the army, they might have learned the limits of such a course of action in future.
If the BJP gets its own majority in the parliamentary elections, it could be bad for Indians, as it could then pass all sorts of laws that it cannot do now because of its dependence on `secular` allies.
``i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act. ``
Why do you say that the `sanghis` need a strong majority in parliament to `rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis`. Did the BJP have a majority when it decided to conduct nuclear tests in 1998? Did it have a majority when it decided to station the Indian army on the border in preparation for war after Dec 13, 2001? Do not think that BJP not having a majority has saved us from war or whatever. On the other hand, having tried nuclearisation and mobilisation of the army, they might have learned the limits of such a course of action in future.
If the BJP gets its own majority in the parliamentary elections, it could be bad for Indians, as it could then pass all sorts of laws that it cannot do now because of its dependence on `secular` allies.
#41 Posted by Ralph on February 2, 2004 5:40:35 pm
wahi_to #39
I am glad you recognized that you are not genetically inferior. Why then continue to harp on Pakistani inability to produce leaders of any worth?
If Pakistanis are not genetically inferior then the problem must lie in its societal system. Is that so impossibly hard for you to see?
I am glad you recognized that you are not genetically inferior. Why then continue to harp on Pakistani inability to produce leaders of any worth?
If Pakistanis are not genetically inferior then the problem must lie in its societal system. Is that so impossibly hard for you to see?
#40 Posted by chaltahai on February 2, 2004 1:58:47 pm
wahi-to: I thi this statement of yours summed it upo pretty well...... <>
Now imagine if this ingenuity in procurement of technologies and processes had been done in the name of developing a lead sector of the economy that can compete int eh global marketplace. How many nuclear bombs does singapore have, I wonder?
Now imagine if this ingenuity in procurement of technologies and processes had been done in the name of developing a lead sector of the economy that can compete int eh global marketplace. How many nuclear bombs does singapore have, I wonder?
#39 Posted by wahi_to on February 2, 2004 12:51:42 pm
ralph,
``Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset.``
i do not belive in genetic superiority or inferiority or a indiviudal/group. this is more of a brahmin/sudra concept. i am not sure how you derived this from my statements.
i think pakistanis are extremely qualified individuals but historically pakistan has produced inept leaders. pakistan is the only muslim country to attain nuclear weapons, this is a significant technological achievement and very few countries in the world have achieved it. moreover, articles/opinions on chowk.com attest to the intellect of pakistanis.
``Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset.``
i do not belive in genetic superiority or inferiority or a indiviudal/group. this is more of a brahmin/sudra concept. i am not sure how you derived this from my statements.
i think pakistanis are extremely qualified individuals but historically pakistan has produced inept leaders. pakistan is the only muslim country to attain nuclear weapons, this is a significant technological achievement and very few countries in the world have achieved it. moreover, articles/opinions on chowk.com attest to the intellect of pakistanis.
#38 Posted by Trekker on February 2, 2004 10:37:35 am
soysauce, I have been told that by some of my colleagues from South India as well. But my parents named me after the ``farsi`` (Persian) word armughan/armaghan meaning ``gift`` -- as in the title of Iqbal`s book ``Armughan-e-Hijaz``.
#37 Posted by Ahmadzai on February 2, 2004 8:54:10 am
Ralph/Rational Faith at # 35:
Please read my response to you at # 207 on Hijab interactive board.
Furthermore, you wrote:
``If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.``
Pakistani terrorists are a no match for Indian terrorists like Advani, Joshi, Modi, Thakray, etc. who are responsible for killing thousands of innocent Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. Pakistanis are also no match for Indians in rewarding killers of human beings, since you people elected them to power. Problem is that Pakistani legal system is also no match for Indian judicial system. Your judicial system plays musical chairs in favor of Joshi and Modi and in favor of fundoo Indoos arrested on the killing of Muslims in Gujrat Bakery case. Historically too, recall that when Tehelka.com had exposed massive corruption in your Government, it was tehelka that was made to disappear.
Given the above evidence, I don`t think any Pakistani on Chowk is a match in hate mongering and extremism for fundoos from India like arjuns, jays, peeing mishras, saxenas, moronicbanias, mumbaikers, ir-Rational Faiths, etc.
:-)
Please read my response to you at # 207 on Hijab interactive board.
Furthermore, you wrote:
``If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.``
Pakistani terrorists are a no match for Indian terrorists like Advani, Joshi, Modi, Thakray, etc. who are responsible for killing thousands of innocent Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. Pakistanis are also no match for Indians in rewarding killers of human beings, since you people elected them to power. Problem is that Pakistani legal system is also no match for Indian judicial system. Your judicial system plays musical chairs in favor of Joshi and Modi and in favor of fundoo Indoos arrested on the killing of Muslims in Gujrat Bakery case. Historically too, recall that when Tehelka.com had exposed massive corruption in your Government, it was tehelka that was made to disappear.
Given the above evidence, I don`t think any Pakistani on Chowk is a match in hate mongering and extremism for fundoos from India like arjuns, jays, peeing mishras, saxenas, moronicbanias, mumbaikers, ir-Rational Faiths, etc.
:-)
#36 Posted by soysauce on February 2, 2004 8:54:10 am
Dear author,
Something completely off topic - I`m curious about your name. Arumughan/arumugan in dravidian mythology refers to the six-faced god who was absorbed into hindu mythology as Siva/Shiva`s son, Subra(h)manyan.
Something completely off topic - I`m curious about your name. Arumughan/arumugan in dravidian mythology refers to the six-faced god who was absorbed into hindu mythology as Siva/Shiva`s son, Subra(h)manyan.
#35 Posted by Ralph on February 2, 2004 7:51:12 am
wahi_to #various
``Pakistan has terrible leaders``
``Pakistan expects too much from this and that``
Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset. There is no genetic reason why a person born in Pakistani Punjab, Sindh, or Baluchistan cannot be a great leader, if the environment was right. If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.
``Pakistan has terrible leaders``
``Pakistan expects too much from this and that``
Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset. There is no genetic reason why a person born in Pakistani Punjab, Sindh, or Baluchistan cannot be a great leader, if the environment was right. If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.
#34 Posted by arjun_m on February 2, 2004 7:34:21 am
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#33 Posted by chaltahai on February 2, 2004 7:34:21 am
I don`t understand this whining sentiment of how America deserted Pakistan after the afghan campaign. AS I recall, Pakistan made off quite well in terms of aid; economic, humanitarian and military. A quid pro quo that served bothcountries well.
AS far as the assertions that the``neocons``don`t understand the middle east is hogwash. It is the exisitng leadership in the middle east that is their worst enemy. There is no one philosophical movement that sways people in the middle east. Arab nationalism or the grand caliphate, and arab caliphate or a turnkish or persian one, what about the palestinians? if the palestinians then what about the Jordanians and ISraelis? I thnk theNeocons have a much better clue about the middleeast than most wonks in the arab/islamic circles and moreso than the wonks on this board.
AS far as the assertions that the``neocons``don`t understand the middle east is hogwash. It is the exisitng leadership in the middle east that is their worst enemy. There is no one philosophical movement that sways people in the middle east. Arab nationalism or the grand caliphate, and arab caliphate or a turnkish or persian one, what about the palestinians? if the palestinians then what about the Jordanians and ISraelis? I thnk theNeocons have a much better clue about the middleeast than most wonks in the arab/islamic circles and moreso than the wonks on this board.
#32 Posted by wahi_to on February 1, 2004 2:47:14 pm
arjun_m,
maybe what you are saying that pakis expect too much from usa and when they do not get it they start crying foul....
my contention is that pakistan should not expect anything from usa, be it financial or military assistance. no country can be strong on the basis of charity. pakistan will remain financially and politically colonised as long as it is dependant on other nations.
also do not forget that after 9/11 India was behaving like a desperate young girl wanting to be screwed by ameican studs. use our bases, use our army, use anything but dear sir bush please use us.
btw, what is your opinion about this scenario that i have come up with:
***
i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act.
***
maybe what you are saying that pakis expect too much from usa and when they do not get it they start crying foul....
my contention is that pakistan should not expect anything from usa, be it financial or military assistance. no country can be strong on the basis of charity. pakistan will remain financially and politically colonised as long as it is dependant on other nations.
also do not forget that after 9/11 India was behaving like a desperate young girl wanting to be screwed by ameican studs. use our bases, use our army, use anything but dear sir bush please use us.
btw, what is your opinion about this scenario that i have come up with:
***
i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act.
***
#31 Posted by arjun_m on February 1, 2004 10:50:58 am
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