The Constipated Faujiz

#200
``my own people are from Jullunder``

why is that no surprise :-)

tahmad!

One half of my family is from Delhi.

I have traveled extensively in India and did that when Indian used to issue visa for three cities. I went to dozens of cities w/o visa as how people were going to tell I was from Pakistan. Truth is, I liked India and at times felt more at home in India then I ever did in Pakistan.

Here are a few more tidbits that I heard:

Kohlapur Kaa Chapel,
Rampur kaa ChaKoo
Banaras kaa Paan
Haapur kaa Papad
Pelibhet kaa Tail(oil)
Banaras kaa thug
Meerut ki Qanchi (Scissors)
And of course our loved one
Shikarpur kaa chotia

I can’t remember many more after almost two decades.
May be Our Indian friends can add some more.

hossp #198 Thanks for the info on Shikarpur. I thought people from Jullunder in India were the simple-minded ones.

(Now before I get a flood of angry posts for daring to say anything remotely negative about India, my own people are from Jullunder, and the above is just a joke. Not meant to be taken seriously by anyone - even the most clinically humor impaired individuals - on this board. Repeat...just a joke. Only kidding.)

It could be that people like tahmed knew there were no Pakistani nukes in May 1998, that the first 5 Pakistani explosions were TNT and the sixth Pakistani explosion a few days later was of a hastily procured Chinese bomb(as someone has speculated earlier).

In that context, to people like tahmed, Advani`s threats to force a `show` did indeed force Pakistanis to acquire a nuke in a fortnight which they didnot have before the Indian tests, samjhey?

However the fact remains that whether the Pakistani nukes are begged, borrowed or stolen, Pakistan had already threatened India with a nuke attack for example in 1990(when VP Singh was in power and the J&K jihad was hotting up) and more than one American diplomat has told the world about it.

For India, Pakistani nukes were as much of a threat before 1998 as they were after 1998. As for Pakistan and its reliable allies China and US, they all had to acknowledge in front of the whole world the existence of Pakistan nuke threats after 1998. If Pakistan didnot actually have its own nukes, and had to `acknowledge` them anyway, well bad luck for Pakistan.

#185 and other by fountainheader

You actually joined a little late on this thread and most likely missed the original exchange that tahmad and I had on Indian nukes and their impact on Pakistan. We disagreed on the point the India was surprised at Pakistan nuke explosion in response to Indian explosion.
Some of our Indian friends joined in with a preposterous contention that India actually used nuke explosion to draw or suck Pakistan into a game that eventually led to sanctions. Both tahmad and I consider that to be a totally lame argument and were trying to figure out from our Indian friends as to how they reached that upside down conclusion and they need to share that insight with us.

Your posts are too long still here is what I have gathered:
We agree that there was no surprise factor
We agree that India did not draw Pakistan into nuke Explosion
We agree that Pakistan was already sliding into Economic mess and the US sanctions had no practical impact on Pakistan economy.

However, you have raised some more discussion points in other areas.

Here is a quote from you and since you quoted it I believe you will stand behind it in our further discussions on this subject.
It is an unpalatable but unavoidable fact that India`s own nuclear tests of 1998 have also played a key part in New Delhi`s blossoming as a global power.

India had always had claims to a global role but had configured itself militarily purely as a South Asia hegemon. When it came out as a declared nuclear power it quickly became a player in much broader Asia-Pacific security concerns, especially regarding China.

A disclaimer first: I honestly don’t believe in a columnist unless his/her credentials are well known.

There are thousands of newspapers on the Net and many more thousands of columnist and endorsing one of them unknown would still require that you prove the POV.
Knowing what we know in the US, most of the big name columnists rely on briefs and information from different sources fed or tutored both, to write their columns. So, they basically represent a section that may be the US admin itself. Case in point Novak and outing of the CIA agent.
I would rather rely on my knowledge and understanding then somebody like Robert Fisk who knows next to nothing as to what goes on in politics, as he is not a “connected” columnist. I would not quote a newspaper columnist as I don’t know who is paying or providing the info.
I hope I made it clear as to where I am coming from.

It seems to me that you are trying to justify nuke explosion by India on some rational ground instead of BS from other Indians poster that are coming up with the: China factor, Window closing and or scientific needs as none of them have any strategic value.

Okay lets first figure this out as quoted by you.

India had always had claims to a global role but had configured itself militarily purely as a South Asia hegemony.

A bare statement will not do somebody has to have a clear picture as to;

1. On what basis did India has claims to global role?
2. How nuke transformed India from a purely “South Asian Hegemony.” To a global player?

Here is what I have to say. India has made lots of progress, no denying that; but most of this progress has come in the last 10-12 or so years after the congress Finance minister Manmohan Singh opened Indian Markets. The nukes were exploded in 1998 so you are saying in that within 4 or 5 years of transforming its economy India was in a position to declare itself a of Global power!!! This is a tall claim. Would you back that up?

IMHO,
The nuke explosion actually confirmed the thought that India is attempting “South Asian Hegemony” rather than moving to becoming a global power. How would you justify the so-called transformation that you espouse in your post?

The second part “When it came out as a declared nuclear power it quickly became a player in much broader Asia-Pacific security concerns, especially regarding China.``

My question again would be: Now that India is a player in Asia-Pacific security, are we to assume that China is now scared of India? Or India matches china in influence in Asia-pacific area. How?

I like your admitting the reality as it is:
“In conclusion, let me restate my position. India did not conduct the test to provoke Pakistan. The tests were in the offing for over a decade, long before the BJP came to power. The specific timing, if anything, was driven by domestic compulsions. However yes, Advani`s comments were made with the intention of provoking Pakistan.”

I think we can do business here. :-)

tahmad: Shikarpur is a place in UP, India and it is known for simple people. Hence my question to the Cool as to where was he from. No offense meant it was all in fun.

fountainheader #185
``In fact, I remember, when I was in high school, in 1995, I took part in an interschool debate about Nuclear Weapons``

And I remember class debates we held in the late 80s, on `should India go nuclear?`.

CoolAL #195 To be considered for the Nishan-i-Haider, you need to be dead first. So, that wont work for Advani. Perhaps we can nominate him ``Natural Born Friend of Pakistan`` .

As for Indians being stupid - I never said that, so once again you attribute to me something I never said. Despite my pleadings to please not do so. So now I am forced to take more drastic action and contact Dr. Qadeer to see if he has any nukes to sell from his Nukes R` Us discount store. No, my friend, I dont call anyone stupid. Since I am not that smart either.

All I am saying is that sometimes very smart people say or do very stupid things. And that is what your boys (sorry, I meant the Infallible Indian Sarkar) did in 1998. That is all I am saying.

TAhmed various...

I have to tell you, I am impressed. Tell me, were you born this pompous or did you have to practice? Go ahead, don`t be modest :-) Take a bow....

Guess what? Ya know why we needed 5 tests? Because we are stupid Indians!!! We need 10 times as many tests as the brilliant Pakistanis...Yep that must be it.....BUT wait, didn`t you guys test SIX of the type? Of course, you all had reasons which we ``stupid`` Indians would not understand......

Also, if Advani did as much as you claim he did for Pakistani defense, should he not be considered for Nishan-e-Haider or something? We can then reciprocate by considering Mushy for the Bharat ratna...C`mon what do you say? ;-)

Please, can you do me a favor? Puff yourself up and say ``I repeat....The ONLY plausible reason is because I say so...``. That will be quite COOL I assure you....

ROTFL!

Hossy, whatever dude....[YAWN]

Wait, let me make this easy for you...I agree with you...Yep, you have convinced me with your brilliant and compelling arguments....Let me summarize

1. Indians are Stupid -- TAhmed says so, so it must be true.
2. Indians explode Nukes first and ``Mind Chunk`` later on chowk..
3. Pakistan exploded the bomb to prove to the world how brilliant they are -- no wait, it is how stupid Indians are and things have been hunky dory ever since for the land of the pure.
4. Indians blundered and exploded the bomb and have been up shit creek without a paddle ever since..
5. Stupid Indians, thinking petty loans can stop the martial races of the pure land....

Ok dude, that should cover it...

sunlight #187 I agree with you that what will no doubt make India a world power in due course is not military weaponry and nuclear explosions but economic progress. This entire discussion on the Indian government motivations behind the 1998 explosions is therefore, as I also mentioned earlier in my post to Hossp, a bit academic - the only interesting thing I find is the unwillingness of many indian posters to accept the proposition that the decision to proceed with the explosions reflected poor judgement on the part of the indian government. After all, the indian government impressed no one but itself with these explosions - after all, there are dozens of countries around the world that could have gone nuclear much earlier than either India or Pakistan, but chose not to do so. At least for Pakistan the nuclear program makes strategic sense (indeed, it is the same reasoning the US used at the start of the cold war to build up its nuclear arsenal - namely, to cancel out the overwhelming advantage in conventional forces on the part of the Soviet Union, and to thus prevent the Soviets from overrunning western europe). Although, even in case of Pakistan, it makes sense in the short run only - in the long run, the only thing that ever makes sense is peace. And it is indeed a very positive development that both governments seem determined to resolve india-pakistan differences and change the tone of the relationship between the two countries.

On economic progress: You are also right in wondering how much of the current economic progress in India owes to the BJP. Much of it has to do with the large education base in india where the credit goes all the way back to Nehru. And much of it has to do with global developments spearheaded by the revolution in information technology which has been led by the US, and which has made it possible for firms to offshore major service functions.

By and large, I think there are much better days ahead not just for the Nathu Rams of India, but also for the Allah Dittas of Pakistan (i.e. the average Joe`s in both countries). It is useful to keep the discussion on this board in that perspective at all times.

fountainheader #184 and 185 Thanks for your posts. On the 3 points you make:

1. Brownback I was a stopgap and temporary fix to give the President the power to override two decades of legislation designed to tighten the economic screws on Pakistan (which time proved to be a neither wise nor effective, I may add). Brownback II a few months later made this a permanent deal. So, my basic point remains unchanged - the US did a 180 degree policy shift which resulted in Pakistan coming out of the economic doghouse it had been placed in for over a decade).

2. Lets just agree to disagree. You say that Advani`s threats were meant to force paksitan out of the nuclear closet makes so india was not the only bad boy in town, and this makes no sense. And I have discussed this exhaustively in my posts below.

3. Again, lets agree to disagree. You say that Vajpayees visit to Lahore resulted from a period of lull in kashimir fighting makes no sense. The switch in Indian policy from one of threats to one of peace was too fundamental to be accounted for by changes in the level of violence in kashmir.

We can argue about these things till - as bhutto used to say - the cows come home.

hossp #183 You again raise some excellent points, which I repeat just so they dont get drowned out in various posts:

1. Come on Cool give us a break here let us know how Indians got Pakistan in to “Deeper trouble”.

2. So India went to all lengths to explode a nuke device and got all that heat from the whole world so that Pakistan is unable to pay some petty loans???

You have got to be kidding!

I thought you would back up what you said in a long post but this all you come up with!!!

3. “what exactly do you think was achieved by Pakistan testing its Nuke on that fateful day?”

I look forward to CoolALs response.


What does shikarpur have to do with this, incidentally? just curious.

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#172 by tahmed32
And Advani`s antics certainly helped secure pakistan`s defense: as CoolAL #168 correctly points out, Nawaz Sharif did go through a major push (from within pakistan, from the generals as well as from a frightened publc) to respond to the indian tests, and a major pull (from Clinton as well as other world leaders) to not respond in kind to the indian tests.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually, as fountainheader pointed out in #186, the decision to test nuclear weapons was driven by the desire to become a world power, not anything to do with Pakistan.

It is also true that testing nuclear weapons did not make India a world power. However, luckily or due to foresight, the BJP government also focussed on economic development, to the extent of reversing its traditional stance and angering its own core Hindutva supporters. See ``Educating Mr Vajpayee`` http://www.businessworldindia.com/feb1604/coverstory02.asp The focus on economics has, however, paid off and (together with the tests) resulted in the world beating a path to India`s door.

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plats #184 ``Could you please explain why the Indian govt would be surprised by Pakistan`s
nuclear tests in 1998 ?``

I think I have repeated the answer to the above question in those various posts you refer to, so let me just repeat one more time: the only plausible explanation is that the Indian decision makers assumed Pakistan`s nuclear program was a bluff.

I agree that various posters have said that the indian explosions were a means to get pakistan out of the closet. However, as I have discussed below, this is not a plausible explanation. I have already provided the reason I say this several times in the discussions below.