Bombay, personally

BTW... Harimau

I suppose the fact that Nusli Wadia is Parsi doesn`t factor in.

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Ref soysauce #72

[Montolives,
Didn`t you, in your previous handle as YLH, abuse hamidm`s wife in the crassest terms? Why are you complaining now? Have you grown up or something?]

Hey Maasanamuthu,

Didn`t you, in your life in Tamil Nadu as Inji-kari-kuzhambu, steal anything that wasn`t nailed down by producing a false certificate as an OBC?

Why are you pretending to be a nice-nice guy now?

Are you getting the feeling that whitey isn`t falling for your OBC certificate?

So how is the great nation of Pakistan this rainy morning? Still in existence despite MY continued existence in this world and on chowk? My congratulations and sympathies.

Meanwhile, kindly lend your ears to this ex-ISI chief.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-3-2004_pg1_4

Senator Lt General (r) Javed Ashraf Qazi said on Friday that banned outfit Jaish Muhammad was involved in the attempts on General Pervez Musharraf’s life.

“We must not be afraid of admitting that Jaish was involved in the deaths of thousands of innocent Kashmiris, bombing the Indian Parliament, Daniel Pearl’s murder and attempts on President Musharraf’s life,” said Senator Qazi, who is also former Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) director general.

--
Where ARE all those chowkies who claimed Indians were lying and it was the Indian government which engineered the Indian Parliament attack on itself ? You need to take this ex-ISI guy to task for maligning you.

Uncle Dost mittar reads Urdu perfectly and I am sure his travelogue will be nothing but the truth...

Nothing in this article was shocking or new for me. I appreciate India for what it is... and I wish it well... but for Pakistani-bashers ... I am sure uncle`s recollection of Pakistan will be very disturbing... I pity you Jayaprakash.

awaiting the night mare

This article by beena is nothing, I dread the dost mitter travelogue. What a great country pakistan is, I have just come from there. I did not get a copy of the pak schooll book on history, I could not read the urdu news papers, I did not notice the heavily armed guards at every street corner, I did not see the posters of jihad, I did not see the burkha clad few women in the streets, I did not notice that there are no women on scooters, i did not see that there are no women drivers, I did not hear the aqueels of animal being slaughtered.......pakistan is so much like india.

from pakistan with love,

dost mitter the pathetic.

Christians convert back to Hinduism
More than 200 Christians in the eastern Indian state of Orissa have reconverted to Hinduism on Thursday in the presence of the leaders of the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

They were reconverted at a Hindu temple in Jharsuguda in western Orissa where the tribal Christians were first purified by rituals and then re-admitted into Hinduism.

Representatives from the hardline Vishwa Hindu Parishad (World Hindu Council) were also present.

The ceremony was part of the VHP`s plan to reconvert 400,000 tribal Christians back to Hinduism.


Local VHP activist Ashok Sakunia told the BBC that thousands of Hindus were being lured into Christianity by monetary benefits, so they felt compelled to respond.

The VHP has been joined by fellow Hindu pressure groups Banabasi Kalyan Ashram and Bajarang Dal in an attempt to bring back Christian converts to Hinduism.

And BJP leader Dilip Singh Judeo, a former minister in the Atal Behari Vajpayee government, said that Christian missionaries who came to India to convert Hindus under the pretence of serving the community would not be tolerated.

This accusation has been denied by Christian groups.

Jharsuguda district collector Jyoti Prakash Das said no official permission had been given for the mass conversion, and that he had not been informed of the plans under the provisions of Orissa Freedom of Religion Act, 1967.

Religious conversions to Christianity from Hinduism are a long-running sore in Orissa.

Only last month eight persons including six women in the state`s coastal region were beaten after they refused to reconvert into Hinduism.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/3534071.stm

Published: 2004/03/04 18:37:19 GMT

© BBC MMIV

nooralain #70
To clarify, this statement of mine was not directed at you.

`Stay or leave a discussion board, that is your choice. `

It was directed at tamaashaais whining about having to leave chowk because of `my criticisms of Pakistan`.

#86 tahmed
``That has to be the dumbest thing I heard so far this year. ``

I am not kidding. I feel that anonymity allows one to adress interactors purely based on contents of their interacts, and that is valuable. (Incidentally this is same as a semetic god idea, is it not?) Ideally, we should know nothing about the interactors. A gharelu rishta out in the open chowk will tend to color the interacts.

Anyway, this board is hosed..look forward to Beena`s next article on her visit (I actually was expecting one from Ferzana).

Soundmeister,

Sorry yaar... I just wanted to second Jang`s post which is the only one here that make sense. I too am perturbed by Chowkstaff`s double standards. As for the sadna issue.. enough said... and no amount of quarterbacking can change the fact. Needless to say big mouths of chowk will think twice before making random bigoted comments.

Thankyou for the congrats.

-YLH

Soundmeister,

Sorry yaar... I just wanted to second Jang`s post which is the only one here that make sense. I too am perturbed by Chowkstaff`s double standards. As for the sadna issue.. enough said... and no amount of quarterbacking can change the fact. Needless to say big mouths of chowk will think twice before making random bigoted comments.

Thankyou for the congrats.

-YLH

YLH you punk, you promise to be ``out of here`` (#77) then come right back in a matter of a few posts (#82). Is this some Ivy League usage of ``out of here`` that us humble mortals are unaware of? Or has living in Pakistan depleted your remaining brain cells as well?

Congrats on the marriage BTW.

BTW, this thread is making no sense to those who didn`t read Sadna`s original post, so all of you please shut up and go fight elsewhere...

Dagny...
JG has the details of my last visit...cheers;))

jang #81 I think chowk can be reasonably expected to enforce its guidelines, nothing more. And if they enforce their guidelines, that is enough to make chowk the kind of forum that would attract people with normal IQs.

It is quite funny that you should ask that husband and wife interactors who are not anonymous be forbidden from chowk. That has to be the dumbest thing I heard so far this year. I hope for your sake that you were kidding.

Just when you think India and Pakistan can be friends ....

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/_news30.shtml

Sohail Fazal is the manager of Lahore’s landmark store, Pioneer in Main Market.

Does Pakistan share more with its fellow Islamic countries or with India?

I think it has more in common with fellow Islamic countries. I’m a strong believer that India will overwhelm us whenever they get the opportunity.


Muhammad Kashif works at Manzoor Brothers store in Lahore’s Liberty Market. He is also trained in computers.

Does Pakistan share more with its fellow Islamic countries or with India? Which should they form alliances with?

Pakistan is better off if it makes relationships with Arab countries, as then the Arab countries can help us. In every field, whether atomic or anything else.


Do you think there is going to be a clash of civilisations?

If Arab countries and Pakistan join, then maybe it will happen. This would be good for Islam.

khamkhwa, thanks for calling me a biatch, I am overcome. :).

Anyone else, I may be the Unabomber or Osama Bin Laden, that is noone else`s business. Stay or leave a discussion board, that is your choice. chowk has a facility to vote off an interactor, use that and stop whining.

Any person telling me or my family members things like that lying is a genetic trait(#50 of Separate electorate board) is not trying to have a conversation with me, he is trying to have a fight with me. I am simply not interested.

As for my #25, I posted it as a response to this article. I have explained a little of why I say so on this board, there is a lot more behind my statement, which noone asks or wants to talk about, as usual, preferring to impute any or every motive to me. I am not responsible for replying every time I am accused of evil motives. If any chowkie takes this as a personal remark directed at him or her, he/she is abysmally stupid and I am not responsible for that stupidity either.

Jang,

Thankyou... sadly the chowkstaff is like a goat which is so gullible to be slaughtered by a meethi churri. Nooralain has perfected the use of meethi churri.

As for husband wife tag teams, we rarely interact on the same boards unless it is something outrageously wrong.. or something that interests us. Here no amount of bullying and lying could stop us from telling the truth i.e. This board, dedicated to peace in south asia between our two nations, was deliberately derailed by the person who wrote #25 ...


The unemployment problems created by vajpayee`s decision to disband `OFBJP` in the US are enormous. I appeal to the Indian Prime Minister to restart that organization.

-YLH

I repeat my protest to the chowk staff: you have shoddy standards. Just beacuse noor sounds like a nice interactor does not mean you get her off-topic ramblings back! Also, chowk should not allow husband-wife tag teams who are not anonymous..it just takes away from freedom of internet medium.

khamkhwa. ,

When was the last time you visited mumbai?

#68

Look whose talking. Pot calling the kettle black...

If speaking the truth makes someone a$$hole, then I am proud to be one... amazingly what evidence is being quoted... that Sadna, after the terrible gujurat, tried to do some damage control here on chowk. Now... going by this logic... I have been speaking of the rights of minorities and not just on this website but on every newspaper, and in face of mullahs, and rabidly Islamist organizations here in Pakistan. It wasn`t done for damage control or face saving.

Yet that hasn`t stopped Mr. Khamkhwa or his favorite Sadna from making the most disgustingly inaccurate comments about me. By that logic... what part of the rectal wall will you associate yourself with?

-YLH

69

This has simply become a match of egos... that you haven`t addressed the real issues is clear. What personal attack... saying that you don`t have a fair bone in your body ? Now if that is a personal attack then I am sorry for hurting your feelings.

As for Sadna, her record speaks for itself.
I am out of here.

-YLH

Okay everyone,

As entertaining as this is, how about we start a separate thread titled
``Sadna: aspiring/confirmed bigot`` and move this there ?

What do you say, Sadna ?

... nannhay!
...these people aren`t fit for your wisdom as you are ahead of your time like Ghalib was... they hate your intelligence, your principled defence of pakistan, munh-toR jawab to the bloody hindus-tvas, superiority of paf, and this includes chowk editors who are actually indians masquerading as pakistanis.......;)
...leave them alone and do your thingy...btw, you are yet to tell me the name of jinnah`s mummy dearest...if you can`t, then promise me O lord of the Rings never ever to utter the word JINNAH...;))

Yasser and I once had a disagreement a couple of years ago about Sadna where he kept trying to convince me that I really should think ill of her because he met her and thought she was a nice person. Judging from her interacts on Chowk, and her caustic comments about Pakistan the first chance she got, I really couldn`t be bothered about changing my mind. One of the main reasons I stopped interacting on Chowk was Sadna and her brother. It is not that I don`t accept criticism of Pakistan, but to be put into a compartment just because of my natonality is not my idea of criticism. Sadna has done so repeatedly here on chowk, resorting to worse kind of name calling and like one of the interactors (68) pointed out relies on mostly `made up` facts.

The second reason I limited interactions was because of people like nooralain. Your self-righteous post about Yasser with excessive repetition of `you know what Yasser` reminds me of preschool. Did Yasser desecrate your churches or destroy your bibles? If anything he has always stood up for the down trodden non-muslims of Pakistan. You claim that he starts these fights. Show us where that is the case. Here as with the other board, Yasser did not call Sadna a hindutvist until she drew the first blood. On the other board, it was after she refused to answer a perfectly reasonable post without any `name-calling` citing her `voting rights`, that Yasser reminded her that this was a website frequented by both Indians and Pakistanis. Please feel free to back up your claims with actual instances.

All YLH needs to stop taking people like you and sadna seriously, and giving you the time of the day. Uncle Nand of Chowk gave Yasser very similar advice. If at all, his fault lies in not following it.


Aisha Sarwari

Montolives,
Didn`t you, in your previous handle as YLH, abuse hamidm`s wife in the crassest terms? Why are you complaining now? Have you grown up or something?

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# 70


``she is not answerable to anyone who puts a question to her in the frame that you did``

Even if what you say is true... and it is not, because frankly no reasonable person can think so, does it warrant an outright attack on the entire Pakistani community? Last time I checked she didn`t single me out, but spoke about the Mating rituals of the entire Pakistani community (59) ... she didn`t declare that she was not answerable to me, but instead re-affirmed I am not answerable to Pakistanis and then instead of commenting on poor mantolives drawing room manners, she disparaged the entire Pakistani nation in her post 25.


`I say to you, she didn`t.`

What you say or don`t say doesn`t matter. It is there for everyone to see. I have quoted her interactions .. some of them verbatim on this board. Like I said before... this is turning into an ego match... this is my parting advice to you ... it is always easier to ride a tiger... it is much harder to speak the truth against popular opinion.

... and as for your other comment... on an individual level I am trying to do whatever is in my capacity that whatever trauma you went through in Pakistan... is not repeated to any christian again. I am an optimist, ... we will one day achieve the Pakistan where human rights are provided and every citizen has equal rights.

Have a good night.

-YLH

``you brought your anger from one board to another...another board where the attempt is being made to discuss interactions between indians and pakistanis, as beena has written about``

What a wonderful summing up... if only it was addressed to the person who posted `#25`

p.s. and your definition of who a hindutvist is is incredibly unfortunate. .as well. we`ve all generalized on this board yasser. . .we`ve all said things we believe from our convictions no matter how right or wrong they are. but if you still insist on saying that sadna insulted all pakistanis. . .i say to you she did not. she is not answerable to anyone who puts a question to her in the frame that you did. i read all your exchanges on the other board. . and if you still think I`M unbalanced. . .then there is a much bigger problem than i had thought.

i find it unfortunate that our interactions have reached this point. and if my views are indeed unbalanced, then i should not be on this board, or much of anywhere on chowk. . .but please feel free to post your balanced views any time you please. i wish you all the best. i am done with this board.

khamkhwahi,
i have no intentions of being a diplomat, but thank you for that resounding vote of non-confidence anyways. : )

yasser,
the chowk staff can remove my post per your objections if they see fit. if you are going to continue with repeating the same words that you have in the past i`ve lost count posts, and keep labelling someone a bigot and a hindutvist when there are fellow pakistanis who don`t see it that way and are trying to look at the bigger picture, then that`s your call and up to you.

as to whether i have a fair bone in my body or not, quite frankly, is not for you to judge.
if personal attacks is the way you want to go with this, i did not want to go there with you yasser. because i am trying to be respectful of the entire community here, and that includes sadna and you.

if you are trying to get everyone to see whether i have a fair bone in my body. . .given that you know not a damn thing about my bones, or what i am about. .and somehow i thought you did, mea culpa. . .then it is not for them to judge either. if you want to say that you are right and no one else can be then that is up to you as well.

you have brought up constantly how you never start arguments and insults when you do. .no one will tell you this, but you do. and you tell me that i don`t have a fair bone in my body yasser? are you going to accuse me next of insulting the entire pakistani qaum as well? well yes, i will insult some of the communalists, bigots, desecraters of holy churches, bibles AND qurans in the pakistani qaum, and you know why yasser? because i experienced it first hand, because my family experienced it first hand. and you know what yasser, this is why i can talk the way i do. . .balanced or not. . .it is taken me a long time. . but i can look at both sides now. . .and i did. i did not condone sadna`s remarks. . .but unlike you, sadna did not repeat herself in one board every chance she got. if you are personally insulted and fed up with this whole thing, i apologize. i feel bad that you feel insulted, but yasser, you brought your anger from one board to another...another board where the attempt is being made to discuss interactions between indians and pakistanis, as beena has written about. and if you insist on getting a pound of flesh. . .i suggest to you that it is not going to happen.

i will apologize to you if i`ve hurt you, and i do. but yasser, if you think my views are unbalanced. . .fine. i suggest to you that you still have plenty of maturing to do.

and if chowk staff decides to remove this post as well. . .fine.

Nooralain,

Had you seen my posts .... I mean actually tried to read them instead of regurgitating the same old same old... the you would know that I had not accused Sadna of abusing my family. What I had said was that my family and my wife have been abused in a language lot worse than `Hindutva` but I didn`t respond by painting the entire Indian population with the same brush. It is amazing how you people just twist and turn every word I say. Sadna`s post #25 is for everyone to see. It was a deliberate attack on all Pakistanis.

Not only was it the most pathetic generalization of the Pakistani community, coming from someone who hides behind `I am not answerable to Pakistanis` every time she can`t handle the complexities of the issue.


-YLH


PS: Interactions between Pakistanis and Indians, and South Asians at large go on despite the `misgivings` of those people who want to sabotage the project from abroad...Vajpayee recently disbanded the `Overseas Friends of BJP` ... which seem to share all the misgivings of our respected chowk interactor... Sadna.

PS: I take offence to Chowkstaff`s decision to repost Nooralain`s post #53 which adds an unfair and biased spin to the whole issue.

Sorry Nooralain but your post is not balanced, because it is making assumptions which are not there. Please point out where I have accused Sadna of abusing my family? I haven`t. My mention of the abuse against my family was relevant to the point that I haven`t responded like Sadna has to abuse which has been much worse. I have not painted an entire people, generalized about an entire community and painted them like idiots. It is easy for anyone to paint an entire population with a brush... Yes I did call Sadna a Hindutvist... because anyone who can claim with a straight face on a website frequented by both Pakistanis and Indians, that she is not answerable to Pakistanis, or anyone who paints all Pakistanis in a certain light is in my opinion a Hindutvist.


People like Sadna call us names all the time... we don`t consider that a personal abuse. We have been called Islamic fundamentalists, communalists, bigots, racists, and all the things Sadna called us in #25... what I consider abuse is the kind of humiliating posts Gujju bania has been writing about my wife. Yet neither my wife nor I responded by degrading an entire nation...

Sadna was called much less... a Hindutvist... we are called extremists and fundamentalist every day by Indians including Sadna who abuses us in such language every chance she gets. Some how that is completely missed by Nooralain, who seems to have no fair bone in her body. Sadna`s personal attacks on us can be forgiven... but it seems that she also finds it in her to attack the entire people ... in #59 on separate identity she is talking about `Pakistani mating rituals`


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003143&channel=civic%20center&start=200&end=209&page=21&chapter=3&order=0#59


then gleefuly she announces that she is not answerable to Pakistanis... and here on this board (Bombay Personally)

But the very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies. A set of people totally divorced from anything but drawingroom realities getting a free pass to mess around in Indian affairs is a scary thought.


I challenge Chowkstaff to show some fairness... quote where I have been abusive to Sadna beyond what or even equal to what she has been posting.

I am beginning to think that this website thrives on hypocrisy ...

-YLH

PS: I don`t expect this post to published... seems like that part of the modular brain that holds Fairness and equity as virtues is still in its embryonic development when it comes to chowkstaff.

...any one calling sadna a bigot is an a$$hole...she is a biatch in a nice way but bigot never...memories are short or intentional...who was the first person to condemn gujrat massacre?..sadna, who spoke for the downtrodden muslims in the post gujrat? sadna...to me she is a patriot gone crazy who would fight like miandad for victory and that includes pscyhological warfare and made-up statistics...

now what is the fight all about? mumbai...that`s a dirty city with millions sleeping on footpathand ruled by thakray the thugs and yet act like a magnet to the rural india to make their dreams come true...

...and noori you will never make a good diplomat despite your best efforts...these people from the two countries need to be kicked on the butt regularly to behave like humans...;)

chowk staff:

thank you. : )

sadna:
thank you for clarifying what you meant in #25. it is not too far from what i thought you had meant.
i understand your misgivings about some pakistanis with what can be viewed as too much `dakh`l andaazi` in the affairs of ordinary indians, and perhaps they would feel the same way about some indians doing that as well.

pre-judgments can be positive or negative depending on what they are. and i don`t think you`re discounting the possibility of pakistanis and indians exchanging ideas per se, and finding commonalities. i do read indian papers online from time to time, especially when musharraf was in india, and quite a few of those reports were rather favorable. . .at least until the point when something went wrong.

i do look forward to dost-mittar`s insights on his journeying through pakistan, and veeresh, if he ever makes it to the test match in rawalpindi. i do believe that it is through such interactions that we can gain greater understanding, and move towards more peaceful relations with one another. as for the remark on `babri masjid` being a pakistani issue, i don`t agree that it is, but can see to some small extent where the person who made this point was going. . but i think pakistanis need to worry about the greater issues we face in our own country, including the `minority` one. it never hurts to look at the bigger picture, or to remove the lens of our negative biases, cobwebs call them what you will from our own eyes before looking at any picture.

regards. :)

Chowk staff: Thanks for enforcing your guidelines.

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chowk-staff
It is your website, aapki marzi.

ferozk #56
`` I must simply tell you that what I wish to post on Chowk and to whom, is my concern and not yours.``

This is exactly what I was saying. Your grand statement applies to me, too, something you and your friends are unable to grasp.

nooralain #various
The big nautanki here only confirms my conviction expressed in #25.

If Pakistanis read newspapers(which it is clear that some are too self-absorbed to do so), they would notice that Indian commentators while travelling in Pakistan or commenting on Pakistani issues rarely take sides, even when they have personal contacts on any side of any issue within Pakistan. Military dictators/politicians/ideologues of all shades from Musharraf to Benazir to Nawaz Sharif and Fazlur Rehman are welcomed in India and taken on their own evaluation without either Indian establishment, media or ordinary Indians overtly/professedly taking sides in Pakistani issues.

In contrast, Pakistanis at all levels, government, media, elite, public are quick to take sides, pronounce judgement (and even indulge in activism) in Indian issues. I have even heard PTV anchors and Pakistani ministers in office go so far as to say `Indian elections were fought on `Pakistani` issues such as Babri Masjid`.

And another example, when Fazlur Rehman came to India, the idiot RSS/VHP leaders discussed Ram Janmabhoomi /Babri Masjid with him! Fazlur Rehman, who had tens of thousands of jihadis with AK-47s fight for the Taliban! Apart from the huge ideological /world view distance between even Indian Muslims and Fazlur Rehman, and the totally different dynamics of Pakistani politics, I doubt the average Indian police/paramilitary force are as well armed as either his supporters or the personal guards of even average`liberal cosmopolitan` Pakistanis. What the heck is the relevance of discussing Indian affairs with him?

As I said, if increased Indo-Pak interaction meant ordinary Indians have to deal with Pakistanis at all levels getting more involved in Indian issues, I have deep misgivings about it.

re: Indo-Pak economic union
When free trade is established between the SAARC countires (by 2006 as per the charter), the rivalries will hopefully be a thing of the past. I found this artilcle the best reason for an economic union:
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/
We need to learn from history, if we are not to repeat some mistakes of the past.
Sridhar

``#30 by Mantolives on February 29, 2004 4:09am PT

Dude... Where are you living?

If she is gonna make inaccurate statements in a hit and run fashion than she should be ready for the heat.

If she is gonna run everytime after she has been challenged and then claim : `I am not answerable to any Pakistanis` ... which is a stupid statement to make because my nationality is not a central issue ... if she doesn`t want to talk to `Pakistanis` because she is not `answerable` to them... then she will be told to pack up her bags and spare us. Your post was rude and uncalled for... my country is not going to get better by tolerating every bigoted insane comment of a Hindutva breathing loser from New Jersey. ``

YLH,

I live in country called India. Place is Mumbai. That is how it will be called. Internationally. When people like Beena has a problem with Marathi people (Thanks Sadna.. Sindhi also?? ), the locals get a wake up call.

I am extremely proud that my country produces people like Sadna.

Let me clarify. I do not know her, neither she knows me. All said and done she will disown my ideas. And I will be AOK with it.

I and likes of her can and will debate our differences. Without F word. F as in well .. but also F as in Fatwa which, most should agree is very common word and needs no censure ....

YLH, if at all any one is bigoted it is I, and very open about it. I reek about it the way I ......

And yes I was rude to you. I am even ruder now. But you claim you always like facts. So let me spell it out. Read my earlier mail again today.

What was father your Atom Bomb (is the name Khan???...) giving oral (or written) confession on TV few days ago?

And then, what was owner of your nation (Is the name PM??) giving oral or written commitment to some one called Colin Powell on Phone on sept 11, when Colin asked him to wag the tail.

And what are you doing about it?

I know. I know. Talking about Sadna??.
Yogiraj Patil

nooralain,

If your post was removed along with others it was only to avoid further ``he said, she said``. Maybe a questionable judgment call at the time. It has been reposted below #53.

Sincerely
Staff

esteemed chowk-staff,
i have been reading, participating and sometimes contributing to chowk for quite some time now. and i have noticed how often we go off topic on every single board.

it is therefore somewhat puzzling to me that you should have removed my post to mantolives, a post that was far from abusive. in this post, i was trying to reason with someone i consider to be an intelligent person that if he should continue to call a poster here a hindutva, which he has done quite often. . .and the person is not the hindutva he keeps referring her to as, then a situation has been created where both feel that they are being attacked. and if this interaction has degraded into personal insults then perhaps it is time to move on.

i tried to explain what i read in sadna`s reply in #25 which was for the most part a response to this article, just as much as mantolives considered it to be an attack against him and his family.

again i fail to see why my post was removed. either you follow the guidelines with impunity every single time, or you don`t. my post was not irrelevant to this board, a board which is not only about beena sarwar`s visit to india, but the implications that it has for each of us from both sides as we consider peaceful and meaningful interaction with one another. i feel that my post addressed that issue, as well as the effects our biases have.

i have watched often how a board degenerates from the topic into that of personal attacks and the like, more often than not. i have watched how an article board turns into a cut-and-paste fest to prove just how messed up pakistanis are, and somehow does not get removed for `violating guidelines`. . .i have observed how we refer to one person as hindutva for her views not taking into consideration the complexes or complexities rather that exist in the said person, and that is not considered as abuse? that still remains on this board by the way.

i was attempting in my post to show the dangers of our biases, and our `namecalling`. . .and of applying that to one person, let alone the myriads of our populations. if you do not see how that is related to the topic at hand in the least bit, i find that very unfortunate on your part. i see a point to your removing posts with abusive language but if you should reduce a person who is attempting to find a balance on a board as irrelevant, i find that very unfortunate indeed.

this action, as well as previous actions taken by editors and staff really make my question what place a voice who is trying to find balance and maintain balance on a website she has appreciated for all the years it has been here has. . and whether it belongs. obviously from your action of removing my post, i am more prone to consider that my voice does not belong here. thank you o esteemed chowk staff for finally showing me the light.

sincerely,
nooralain/ana

re: Sadna # 51

You wrote: ``It is a more worthwhile use of your time to contribute on the topic here than waste your time expending std. Pakistani issue hot air``

Are you suggesting that I need your permission to post any reply, on any topic, on Chowk?

If that is the case, then I must simply tell you that what I wish to post on Chowk and to whom, is my concern and not yours.

Ciao

Beena Sarwar,

I apologize for the inconvenience caused.


Chowkstaff,

As far as I can see the pettiest totally irrelevant to this article post (#25) of them all that started it all hasn`t been removed. Also... Gujjubania`s offensive posts against my wife haven`t been removed from Separate identities board. It will also do chowk staff a world of good if they defined what interaction is `abusive`. Calling someone a Hindutvist who hides behind such sentences as `I am not answerable to Pakistanis` after being challenged on it is hardly name calling.

Though I appreciate Chowk`s first attempt to deal with everyone on equal footing, it will also be good if they didn`t cave into the pressure of certain people who keep snitching and complaining about `abuse` when there hasn`t been any.

-YLH

``Offensive interacts from the Separate Destinies have also been removed.``

Actually ... this hasn`t happened... not even selectively. The only post I could see that was removed was the one in which I had informed the chowk staff that I had mistakenly posted under my wife`s nick which was then also removed at my request.


Gujjubania`s various posts against my wife, Sadna`s post #59 which is a racist attack against Pakistanis, and even the posts in which I allegedly `abused` sadna stay as they are.
So please point out which `offensive` interacts were removed.

sadna, mantolives, gujjubania, others:

The last few interacts from this article have been removed to curtail another discussion from getting off-subject.

Offensive interacts from the Separate Destinies have also been removed. If some objectionable post has been missed its not due to any selective bias but simply because its been missed. You can report it using the help link at the bottom of each page.

To all, please keep in mind this is public shared space for dialogue. By posting irrelevant, petty, and personal remarks you not only diminish yourself but also are inconsiderate to the writer of the article and to the readers interested in following a real discussion.
To have a productive debate please stick to the theme presented in the article.

well, i guess my request to hold off on attacks and negative language fell on deaf ears. this doesn`t bode well for the duration of this board. but then what`s new pussycat?

rather than my going back and forth to read this post that yasser seems to be up in arms about. .i will repost it here:

But the very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies. A set of people totally divorced from anything but drawingroom realities getting a free pass to mess around in Indian affairs is a scary thought.

If interactions with Indians of all shades contributes to more realism in the Pakistani elite, fine, but if such interaction is nothing but a free pass for them to bring their strong class and ethnic biases into the Indian scene, no thanks.

********

hmmm, so yasser you take this as a personal attack on your family? perhaps it is. . .because you have time and time again labelled sadna to be a `hindutva`. and i will now say something i have been meaning to all this while. i do not consider sadna to be a hindutva. i think you`ve painted a brush on her and dismissed her just as some have perceived her to have dismissed pakistanis.

as for the rest, i think there is some point to what she`s said. . .we are so quick to class anything that smacks of anti-pakistan as hindutva. we do not take into consideration certain psychosocial complexities. this article itself smacks of a certain bias which even i noticed, as interesting as the article is. .as `nice` as it is that beena got to experience mumbai.
being divorced from anything but drawingroom realities is just as fitting for indians as it is for pakistanis. how many indians on this board understand the psychosocial complexities of pakistanis? they don`t know. and guess what. . .we don`t really help here on chowk. . .and they don`t really help here on chowk, because we`re all hung up on our biases, ethnic, class, whatever. and yes, liberals are guilty of claiming to be liberal but projecting their view of what they see as reality on to what the reality actually is. and that doesn`t apply to liberals alone.

yasser, i will acknowledge that i honestly do not recall you painting dismissive strokes on the population of indians, but you have dismissed sadna. .and she is indian. this regurgitating of quotes from her is something that is personal between both you and her. . .and you cannot totally extend that to the rest of the pakistanis. neither of you really know each other except what you have shown on chowk, and perhaps neither of you ever will. . .but please yasser, save yourself. . .dimaagh thanda karo. move on. . .move on!!!
ana

ferozk #43
It is your friends who have been desperately trying to pick a fight with me starting with #50 of the Cementdaur board. It is a more worthwhile use of your time to contribute on the topic here than waste your time expending std. Pakistani issue hot air.

gujjubania #47
You didnot tell me if you were old enough to vote?

With reference to Gujjubania`s post... it is true that Sadna is quite the enigma ... in person she is one of the nicest sweetest people I have come across... but her posts here on chowk are so hate filled that she stands in league of the people like Gujjubania.

yasser,
i have every intention of responding to your post, but am running late for a meeting. .so it will have to wait until i have more free time on my hands. .perhaps tonight.

until then can we all please hold off on the negative language that is permeating this particular offshoot. .

thanks!
ana

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A FEW REQUESTS TO THE AUTHOR
(especially since more articles on this topic are promised).

1) Please make the article as original as possible, and not full re-gurgitated comments from secular, chattering folks about shivsena etc. This can be easily done without visiting mumbai.

2) Directly skip how the ``common folk`` like you because you are a pakistani, unless there is a further interesting point to it. This has become cliched by now.

3) Please avoid lazy comparisons of karachi is the same as mumbai. We all know that the Dharavi and Korangi are similar. Do more non-obvious comparison that your visit made possible.

4) Avoid name dropping unless it adds to the value of the article. (And please, khadi-gramodyog commission is so irrelvent..except in writing about why it should be sissolved..have you visited their shop in prime real-estate area of Mumbai? Its like morgue).

5) Reread the article for sentences such as ``visit to what seems to be Karachi`s vibrant, charismatic, long-lost twin``, and ponder... multiple adjectives, why did I do that? Is it becuase it sounds cool? Does it mean anything really?

My aim is to read something great. I cant write well, but you can. So please consider my opinion and maybe you will have better article, (or no article).

And Manto, Nooralain, aisha sadna etc please get off this board, take it elsewhere. Chowk Stafff ought to reject your interacts as per the guidlines.

Ana,

Your post makes perfect sense and I agree with you 100%... but the name calling you were referring to does not exist... and if telling someone to go to a Hindutva Website or calling them sinister when they say things like I am not answerable to Pakistanis is hardly name calling... I suggest you read what some of the people from India have been saying about me and my family on the board in question...

Please acknowledge that I have not responded by making generalizing dismissive comment about the entire Indian population.... nor did I start it here on this board. Sadna`s #25 is indicative of the venomous snakes of hatred and bigotry against Pakistanis that reside in her head.

-YLH

ferozek

I have no desire to continue this...

I suggest you read Sadna`s post #25... the only reason she posted on this board was to vent her own weird suspicions and ideas about Pakistan.

yasser:

here`s what frustrates me about this whole thing: the fact that when you are having a discussion in an academic spirit, or challenging someone in an academic spirit, you temporarily depart from the academic and go for the jugular. and no, this does not apply to you alone.

yes, i have always wished you well, and i will continue to do so. and yes, `i am not answerable to you or any pakistani` (that is the correct wording) is dismissive, but sadna has also replied to pakistanis on occasion. and she has been able to dialogue with us, even IF we don`t agree with each other, and sometimes without rancor. if we think about what mittarji says about the spirit of dosti, is this not what we should be encouraging?

there are plenty of indians and pakistanis at chowk who don`t feel that they are answerable to one another, who dismiss each other or create further distance by what freud refers to as `the narcissism of minor differences`. and this website has always had a diversity of views and people. therefore i think it was unfortunate for you to suggest that sadna take her views to a hindutva website regardless of how anti-pakistan anyone perceived that to be. and it was unfortunate that quite a few of your responses to sadna were challenging not just what she wrote, but her character in such a way that she responded in the manner that she did. which is no less unfortunate.

to question my behavior as curious is fine. i cannot be accused of not being sympathetic or empathetic to pakistanis though. . .there are innumerable occasions when i have questioned those who throw keechar our way, challenged them. and you know a little something of what I am about, my history with pakistan as well as my family`s history in pakistan. . .i can just as well say that i am not answerable to any pakistani as well. i don`t. and there are pakistanis on chowk who feel they are not answerable to each other. should they not go to a website of their own then. .what would that website be called?

if we strive to be in the spirit of dosti, if we want to be in the spirit of peace then it behooves all of us to dialogue towards that direction. if there are those who post inaccurate statistics and information. . .rather than refuting them by attacking their character, refute them with evidence to the contrary. if they stand by their convictions, they stand by them. we can`t change people to how we think on chowk yasser, but telling them to take their talk somewhere else also suggests an intolerance that we accuse them of. it`s those small steps we take that are more meaningful than the big leaps at times.

if pakistan is going to get better. . .it has to begin from the inside rather than the outside. no keechar or whatever someone writing on a website in america or anywhere in the world dishes our way can impede that. they can try to break us, and it hurts, but you can`t let it stop you from moving on. and i continue to wish you well.
love,
ana

re: Mantolives and Sadna

Enough is enough and what is said, is water under the bridge. Both of you are being stubborn for reasons of pride more than any other reason and this whole episode is becoming dogmatic to the point of entering the realm of diminishing returns. Since neither is willing to retract their words or step back from their stated views, this issue has already run its course.

Words are said on Chowk, which cause pain and resentment and we have all suffered through the slights of debate on Chowk, but remember one thing; never personalize the issues for any reason, because when you make the issues personal, you lose your objectivity and the only thing, which suffers as a result is your own argument. Both of you have nothing to gain from verbal behavior and everything to lose. Both of you are intelligent enough to realize that you have walked into a cul-de-sac and now, there is only that far you can move ahead this verbal tete-a-tete.

In time, none of this will matter.

Ciao

#37
No need to be exhausted on my account :). As for `actually talking to each other`, that is largely up to the author. It would be interesting hear her personal impressions(good or bad) of Mumbai/Bombay.

Sadna`s protest is like `Ulta chor kotwal ko dantay`

PPS...

It would be great if Nooralain would point what exactly frustrated her so much ...

PS Please note that Sadna didn`t say : `I am not answerable to Yasser Latif Hamdani` ... or `I am not answerable to Manto`... which she should have if she feels I have wrongly indulged in name calling.

Instead she chose to throw up a bigoted racist comment against the 140 million people who call themselves Pakistanis.

Nooralain,

Thanks for the appreciation of the pic.

Perhaps you should visit the board to see for yourself. There was a general debate about the Muslim League that was going on.... Sadna made a comment... it was challenged in an academic spirit... because she didn`t have an answer... She responded I am not answerable to Pakistanis, they don`t control my voting rights

Because of the sheer nonsense value of that comment... she was told to take her business to a Hindutva website if that indeed is her view. Now she is acting all indignant....

We are all well aware of what she is.

-YLH

#36
and i wanted to make that point, but i failed to do so. i get so weary of this all. . .of challenging this name-calling business and not having dialogue. and i was definitely more frustrated about how yasser responded to you. if you don`t feel answerable to anyone name-calling or not, then that should be the end of it. but i think that considering this is a board where someone from `the other side` is talking about a trip to mumbai, and considering a whole lot of other things, isn`t it time we all actually started talking to each other. i know you do, sadna. even if we don`t always agree.

anyways. . .exhaustion seeps in. . .and miles to go before i sleep.

#35
``one can question what they`re saying though, can`t they. i don`t think that`s wrong is it?but if you are not answerable to us, you aren`t, and that`s that. there was no need for name-calling``

Interacting obviously means answering queries and in my memory I have rarely refused to answer peoples challenges. But when name-calling goes on regardless of whether one is not interacting or not, regardless of the replies one gives or not, regardless of any substantiation one gives for one`s POV, I am certainly not answerable.

sadna,
i wasn`t referring to you per se. . i`m sorry you took it that way. my thing was that one can and does say whatever they wish on this board. one can question what they`re saying though, can`t they. i don`t think that`s wrong is it? but if you are not answerable to us, you aren`t, and that`s that. there was no need for name-calling on his part.

when i said `if we sound just as intolerant. .` i was referring to intolerant people in general, not you specifically. and to be quite honest, it gives me no warm fuzzies to call a person intolerant, or to see one acting in such a manner.

and yes, i am aware you were being personally abused on that and this board, this was my way of coming to your defense as well as knocking some sense into yasser. i really do apologize if it sounded like i was agreeing with him. . .i was making a general remark about bigotry and intolerance. . it wasn`t directed at you.

i also felt there were some negative connotations which is why i observed that there was a bias here. and you are right about the `sindhi` part.

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nooralain #32
It gives a nice fuzzy feeling to call another person intolerant, right? I was being personally abused on that board even when I wasn`t posting on it. My single line reply to that, you responded to and made me an unwarranted apology. Any school child can do a google and find the information on landholdings which is now being demanded with so much song and dance.

I stand by what I say on this or any board and this sort of response only deepens my conviction.

Here I am being abused for commenting on an article on Mumbai, which is still in India, last I heard. For one thing, I donot like the negative connotations seemingly implied here about the Marathi connection of Mumbai. Either this is accidental on part of the author(more likely) or it is not. It is like an Indian going to Karachi and putting a negative connotation on the Sindhi connection of Karachi - taking cue from `liberal cosmopolitan` Pakistani hosts. This would be rather insensitive and bigotted of an Indian to do so, I think.

All chowk interaction is voluntary, if that is a problem, please take it up with chowk staff.

yasser,
[my country is not going to get better by tolerating every bigoted insane comment of a Hindutva breathing loser from New Jersey. . .]

that`s where you`re wrong yasser. : ) and don`t you see that? why does pakistan`s improving have to depend on NOT tolerating what someone from new jersey, or mangalore says? we`re an intolerant lot ourselves. . .pakistan gets better from within pakistan just as much as from without. and believe it or not, that`s something we have to think about when we throw keechar or it gets thrown our way. if she`s not answerable to us, fine. . .she really doesn`t have to be. i don`t have to be answerable to ram krishan either. so?

i`m not saying it doesn`t hurt, because it does. . but yasser, if we sound just as intolerant, then you`ve got a point. perhaps pakistan isn`t going to get any better. but it won`t be because of what fulana said about jinnah, or because of what some bigot said in any part of the world. they may or not be answerable to a higher power for the things they say. we are not that power. pakistan will be a better place when people who want it to be a better place can just focus on that. . .and not be obsessed with what our neighbors think and say.

and that`s a lovely picture of you and aisha. . .if that is what it is : )
love,
ana

Ref stuka #22

[``. An advocate of self-reliance. ``

...the same as Nehru, HS Surjeet, Indira Gandhi et al. They may not be red, but they are pink. Gurumurthy is a Pinko with a dash of saffron.]

There IS a difference. Gurumurthy wants self-reliance as a means to achieve self-respect and respect from others. The rest of them shamelessly used the concept of self-reliance to foist the 50-year old Ambassador on the Indian public.

If Gurumurthy has his way, he would shut down all the NGOs that plead for and accept foreign funds for various social programs in India.

So don`t paint him in the same colors as Arundhati Roy, Medha Patkar, etc.

Dude... Where are you living?

If she is gonna make inaccurate statements in a hit and run fashion than she should be ready for the heat.

If she is gonna run everytime after she has been challenged and then claim : `I am not answerable to any Pakistanis` ... which is a stupid statement to make because my nationality is not a central issue ... if she doesn`t want to talk to `Pakistanis` because she is not `answerable` to them... then she will be told to pack up her bags and spare us. Your post was rude and uncalled for... my country is not going to get better by tolerating every bigoted insane comment of a Hindutva breathing loser from New Jersey.


-YLH

YLH,


``#26 by Mantolives on February 28, 2004 9:16pm PT

In case you are wondering the root cause of Sadna`s out burst... on another board she made some comments which will challenged in an academic spirit... when she was unable to answer, she declared : `I am not answerable to Pakistanis``.

NO. Sadna is not answerable to you OR anybody. I repeat. What she avowed is right. She is not answerable to ANY Pakistani.

My country (India) will go on it`s path. We believe in our future. And we have tryst with it. With or without you. No questions asked or tolerated.

And so your country and country people should.

But... Pakistan, right now is a pathetic student who every one, all and sundry, is asked to take so many exams. Oral, written... On TV. Off ....well.

Are you indulging in fist fights to score some browny points, or you want to make your country better?

I have higher hopes from you than this YLH..well.

Yogiraj

Beena Sarwar:

Nice article. Would you like to express your point of view on a possible reunification of the two countries, not in the near future but as a possible long-term goal which might be pursued as a strategic initiative? Pakistan would definitely gain because of India`s greater economic and technological muscle, whereas India would benefit from Pakistan`s abundance of (as-yet mostly untapped) natural resources and the increase in strategic breadth. Like you said, we all look alike, we have a culture which has common underpinnings, one of us is trying to secularise, the other, trying to become a liberal, but theological state.

This would also help resolve the identity crises which affect migrants from both sides, who sometimes express feelings of being ``stateless`` and satisfy their yearning for roots. Infact, I believe PM Vajpayee`s proposal of a unified currency on the model of the euro was the first tangible suggestion towards this end.

Would welcome some feedback.

Regards,
Irfan Hamid.

PS:

It is my faith that there isn`t a dearth of good people in our neighboring country, though right now people like Sadna are the most vocal and give a wrong impression of India. During the last two weeks I had the pleasure of meeting uncle Dost mittar and lovely auntie Dost mittar... no matter how much Sadnas, and the RSS fanatics try... I will not accept that India is a country of jingoistic Hindu fanatics ...

Uncle Dost Mittar left for India two days ago after a rather successful 2 week trip. He travelled extensively throughout Punjab, NWFP and Sindh ... going as far west as the Khyber Pass, and South to Karachi... the last day they were here in Lahore, he told me that my approach of inviting people to Pakistan was extremely positive, because the negative image of Pakistan that certain chowkies proliferate is far from reality.


His article about his travels is eagerly awaited.

-YLH

In case you are wondering the root cause of Sadna`s out burst... on another board she made some comments which will challenged in an academic spirit... when she was unable to answer, she declared : `I am not answerable to Pakistanis`.... Accordingly she was asked what she was doing on a website dedicated to Pakistani-Indian interaction and told her to take her business to a Hindutva website. I am not sure who she is calling drawing room people, but it doesn`t make sense for people living 5000 miles away to call Pakistanis and Indians living in Pakistan and India toiling hard for the betterment of their respective countries `drawing room` . People like Sadna are the root cause of the problem... they go around making incredibly bigoted statements, and when questioned, their answer is simple... `we are not answerable to Pakistanis`.... who can`t handle the complexities? The issue is a very simple one.... as long as there are people like Sadna on both sides of the border, there will be no peace between Pakistan and India... these sinister and devious people are responsible for the sea of suspicion that is between our two peoples. As long as people like Sadna operate on both sides, nothing positive will ever come off it.

Nice article. Good to hear of such interactions, may they increase.

But the very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies. A set of people totally divorced from anything but drawingroom realities getting a free pass to mess around in Indian affairs is a scary thought.

If interactions with Indians of all shades contributes to more realism in the Pakistani elite, fine, but if such interaction is nothing but a free pass for them to bring their strong class and ethnic biases into the Indian scene, no thanks.

Bombay has held a great deal of fascination for me and would certainly be

a place that I would like to visit in India. But it still ranks below Agra, Aligarh

Ajmer and Delhi in terms of priority.

And as to Karachi being 20 or 30 years behind ``Mumbai`` could someone

please elaborate?

Ras

Deedeejan,

Hope you enjoyed your stay with ing loving indoos. (please pacify true religious ones like urs...)

You met all but ones. The ``locals``.

We the Maharashrians are Thakarey`s country. We are neither open, nor hospital. We are still considered as human though, (I do not know) why because, people from all over India (and Pakistan, and ...) simply floak to our place. There was/is no RSVP sent. But still..right from the time of your Alamgir...

For example...In your stay, did you ever visited place called ``Koliwada`` , exclusive to ``Kolis`` in Mumbai?. Kolis means fishermen in Marathi. You should have met them. Had you, you would have vindicated some of your stand points (including socialism etc). Even Arjun M or Stuka would have..... actually.... well.... Also, then, and then only, you would have know why it is now called Mumbai.

Nice article though.

Yogiraj Patil

``. An advocate of self-reliance. ``

...the same as Nehru, HS Surjeet, Indira Gandhi et al. They may not be red, but they are pink. Gurumurthy is a Pinko with a dash of saffron.

re: harimau

{Nusli Wadia`s advisor is also listed among the Top 50. He is S. Gurumurthy, who is described as the BJP Ideologue.}

...there is a broader curious phenomenon of muslims joining the BJP...people used to mock omar abdullah and shahnawaz hussain for being ministers in the BJP government, but now the ranks are growing...najma heptulla may be next...all these people cannot be lackeys...

Ref arjun_m #10

[Isn`t S. Gurumurthy the commie in khakhi shorts.. ]

Nope. An advocate of self-reliance.

Ref arjun_m #16

[++
Ahead of Azim Premji, the CEO of WIPRO,
++

Forbes list of richest people.

Premji is on the top with 6.7 billion$.]

India Today was talking about political power/influence rather than wealth.

``They herd Pakistanis into separate lines, and a `registration` procedure which should take no more than half an hour ends up taking three times that much.``

That is very very sad, the poor bina had to stand in que for so long, something she has never experienced in pakistan. Spare a thought for the pakistanis coming back in ball and chain from the land of the free, USA.

Thackreys son is a fag? This is major news! Or you are just saying this because he is a photographer..

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Hmm, then different sites/reports have called it by different names. The Indian media kept calling it Socialist Forum which basically means that the organizers themselves are lending a political color and so people like us who believe in the free market are excluded. However, a name like Social Forum, though it may be sympathetic to the same leftist ideals, is not making a political statement in the nomenclature.

i say tomayto and you say tomaato. . .as the conference web site indicates, it IS World Social Forum. . .and I`m not going to get into an argument with you stuka because regardless of what your feelings are about this forum, i do respect most of what you have to say even if i don`t agree with it.

and while i don`t deny that there is a certain bias in this article. . .(how can there not be?), I for one can appreciate the strangeness of being in Mumbai for the first time in one`s life, and the personal impressions one gets. . .

*********


From Mumbai with hope
Hilary Wainwright
Red Pepper, March 2004



As the fourth World Social Forum in Mumbai showed, the social-forum movement continues to go from strength to strength. Hilary Wainwright explains what distinguishes this new way of organising for social justice from the labour movements and political parties of old.

`Can you ask them to go?` an anxious volunteer pleaded with Gautam Mody, trade union organiser turned honest spin doctor for January`s fourth World Social Forum (WSF) in Mumbai. A group of politically motivated Buddhists were performing a dance outside the forum`s media centre and taking up a lot of space. `Leave them,` said Mody, as firmly as a conventional press officer might order a demonstration to end. `Why does it take so long for people to let go of the old way of doing things?` he grumbled. He went on to explain how the streets outside his union offices in Delhi are always cleared of anyone loitering with political intent. `We`re creating a new culture here,` Mody said. `In the past the labour movement too often preferred to meet behind closed doors, and we would even send people to investigate who was listening. The social-forum process is completely open. That is not always easy to accept.`

But by the end of the Mumbai forum (five days of festival, conference, demonstration, workshop and rally declaring `another world is possible, we can build it`) many more people understood what makes the WSF different. The square outside the media centre became a stage squatted by any group nifty enough to get there first and perform before a motley collection of the world`s straight and alternative press.

When it comes to organising an international social forum (apart from the WSF, there are also African, Asian and European forums), it`s not just a case of the trade unions having to open up their smoke-filled rooms. In many countries the anarchist-inclined movements for global justice have also had to depart from traditional practice: they have warily and conditionally agreed to participate in the representative assemblies and committees that are responsible for organising the forums. The local social forums that are springing up in towns and cities across the world operate on the principle of direct forms of democracy. But while the meetings that coordinate the international social forums are open to contributions from anyone who shares the basic principles underpinning the forum idea, their decisions are finally agreed by representatives.

The experience of being represented has become so diminished that many people feel that only a pure form of direct democracy has any authenticity

There are many different ways of being a representative, of `making present` the views of those who for reasons of a manageable size of meeting, resources, distance and equity between organisations, are absent. Some forms of representation are more direct and democratic than others. In the South, social movements - women`s, urban, peasants` and trade union movements - have invented ways of ensuring that their collective power is transmitted beyond the level of direct democracy through forms of representation that are strengthened by systems of rotation and recall. In the North, partly in reaction to the way parliamentary and labour representative structures have become emptied of vitality and radicalism, there is a strong sense of `only I can represent myself`; the experience of being represented has become so diminished that many people feel that only a pure form of direct democracy has any authenticity.

Events can change the meaning and nature of representation, however. Thus, the brutality with which Italian police attacked protesters at the G8 summit at Genoa in 2002 set the pace for bringing the social movements and trade unions together. `It created a desire to cooperate, which made it possible to build trust and organise the [November 2002] Florence European Social Forum in a way that involved everyone,` the Italian forum spokesperson and Aids campaigner Vittorio Agnoletto explained in Mumbai. Thus, after experimenting with creating `autonomous spaces`, many Italian social movements now often work alongside the cautiously left trade unionists of the CGIL.

Political parties excluded

The organisations most challenged by the theory and practice of social forums are the traditional political parties of the left. The WSF`s principles specifically exclude political parties

The organisations most challenged