Who is a Muslim?

tahmed,

Your prankster comments reflect your own filthy mindset. Your accusations and your style attest to this. I say this for a few reasons:

1. If you had an earnest issue, you’d have discussed it rationally … without plunging into an accusatory tirade. You later dragged mrs sattar into your crusade … and were not above attempting to ridicule her. Your posts indicate you have an ax to grind.

2. It is worth noting that … your deprecating speculation about mrs sattar is incorrect. This says a lot about your attempts to validate your outbursts.

Furthermore, over the weekend you failed to contain for another day your desire to ridicule others. This smacks of personal issues, and not earnest ones. Read your posts to see this in hindsight.

3. More importantly … even if people in cyber space pick up each other … who are you to get in their faces? Now … if you were earnest in your views, you’d have discussed things in a civil manner. Your reaction indicates you are an opportunist with a self-aggrandized moral agenda.

Your taking it out on “Ahmadi mullahs” further reveals your true motives. Na, na Sahib … the source of your frustration lies somewhere else. You are a gutter cockroach that thrives in filth … and walks around with pretensions of moral indignation. This reality of your moral crusade is disgusting beyond belief. So stick your moral agenda up your nose … it may bring you peace of mind.

The only terrorist nation in the world: USA
an eye-opening op-ed piece. It is sad that the illiterates of Pakistan (jee meri urdu kamzore hai, maiN ney easy urdu lee thhee) just cannot benefit from it. No wonder their minds are mortgaged to western imperialism.

Zahra,

Some comments to you are in order.

The discussion on “Muslim” issue turned into a bit of an after-school backyard tussle between myself and Urstruly. My comments involving you were innocuous in intent … and as Romair later pointed out, were in the spirit to treat you as one of the boys. Judging from your posts in the past, I (seemingly incorrectly) assumed that you would not mind being treated as one of the boys … and pinned a few jokes on you. Me bad.

These jokes were perhaps too harsh … but I assure you that my intentions were not mean … and my comments did not harbor any other motives. This I stand firmly on. At the same time, if I offended you, I offer my unconditional apologies … and hope you can overlook this childish behavior on my part.

++++++++++++

Malang,

My belief in Ahmadiyyat does not cause me to accuse others of being lost and misguided. What works for me may not work for others. I see a few things as black, as few as white, and the rest as gray … and at the same time I realize that others may see things differently.

To each his own … and the rest is history. However, I must mention that … self-doubt is not be treated with dismay. In my search for answers … after rejecting IQ or GPA as accurate measures of a man’s intellect, I came up with … “one’s ability to question his own beliefs” … as an acceptable definition of “intelligence”. In self-doubt, I believe, are the seeds for one`s progress as a human and as a soul.

So, peace Sahib … and may your demons stay at bay …

Well, dear Sattar, I really wish that it were as easy to be either black or white in life as you suggested. There are very few things in this imperfect world that can be characterised in absolute hard and fast terms ruling out every other possibility.

Every phenomenon can be presented, dilated upon and perceived in (at least) hundred and one different manners. Particularly, religion is such a complex black hole where even extremely rational and acclaimed intelligent individuals with thorough logical approach, even noble laureates, go nuts.

Let me give you one more example. If mainstream Muslims consider Ahmadis heretic so do Ahmadis. I mean can you ever be Ahmadi without believing that non-Ahmadis are not misguided, mistaken and wrong in their beliefs? You cant be Ahmadi without considering Mirza sahib prophet, not Muslim while doing so. Right? Sattar bhai, it is a never-ending discussion which would lead nowhere. Lets make peace. I just wanna add few details which are normally held back for convenience sake =).

I agree that my last reply can be interpreted in a fashion as you did. Perhaps, it was meant to be ambiguous as everything else around. But, no, I was neither seeking conflict nor intended to threaten. Why should I? You are very much entitled to believe what you want to. Who am I to object? Man, you are lucky who have succeeded making up your mind. I am not. I have yet to attain that peace of mind. Na yar na, teachings of Mirza sahib don’t help me =), in case you thought to prescribe that.

Brother, we all human beings are [and very much have the requisite potential to be] both angel and devil as per requirements, sometimes even simultaneously.

Take care,
Allah Hafiz

sattar #187 You are trying to be cleverer than you really are, I see. You try to pick up women on the internet while supposedly engaged in a religious discussion, and you try to brush it off by claiming that I see filth where none exists (I never said it was filth - I just thought it was funny, this mindset of the mullah that you demonstrated) and by noting I am senior to you in age (No matter how senior I am to you, you are not a 15 year old teenager either).

Having been caught red-handed, and not being honest enough to admit it, you thus demonstrate that regardless of which damned religious sect a mullah belongs to - sunni, shia, ahmedi whatever - and regardless of the way the mullahs of various sects jump at each other`s throats, you people are all the same. A bunch of sex-crazed individuals who mix religion with your sexual urges.

I think it would be worhwhile to explore the fundamental Question as Romair pointed out,

How to ascertain truth? How to recognize if a claimint of Prophethood is true?

On this forum people cherish thier intellect and wisdom, and it would not wrong to say that people want to express it, they want to be recognized as intellegent deep thinkers. For example Mr. Isphahani or Mr. Hamidm2 etc. Though the example that I have given, the approach they have followed is distinctively different, one want to express Intellect through street culture and other want to express intellect through confusing-subterfuge. I may be wrong, and one can argue about it. But let me express what I have felt about the desire to come ``online`` and express yourself. I will give few examples here.

Lets see some of the posts on this thread, someone said

............. i know exactly how prophets are made - i saw one being created right in front of my eyes ............ i am serious, so please don`t blow this off ..........

........... i watched this guy for years doing his thing - chanting allah hoo, abusing people who abused him or simply resting under a pipal tree watching the world with vacant eyes ...............

Observe how important is I in this discovery. So much so, has to make an addition and aggrandize the whole situation from a pir or faquir to Prophet.

Yet another responce by someone, observe how much strong empahsis is on I in this responce, realize the need for self importance, so much so, get the importance even if it come from the .......falsehood. In other words I am such a big thing that I am causing trouble for a whole nation.

``I trust that the Pakistani nation, the Muslim ummah and you and your fellow beleagured countrymen have survived yet another difficult day of my presence on chowk? Koi Pakistani cheenti kahin na mar gayi ho.``

The point is, if this kind of I thing a hurdle in finding the truth, for any one, in any field. Ultimate result of this kind of thinking leads to a balloned mountain of self-importance.

This is no effort to minimize the importance of self-esteem and self-confidance. They are essential and necessary. But when this self-esteem and self-confidance becomes unbalanced, then this leads one to a wrong result. In my opinion, this is not just confined to religious domain, but is applicable to secular knowledge as well. One working with physical phenomenon, trying to understand and discovering the fabric of nature and physics and other fundamental subjects would be a witness to this fact, that is, how much your personality and your approach to the problem is important.

To find out the truth you have to be true yourself.

The second thing I would like to draw your attention is, if with your own efforts and analysis and intellect and reason and research can you recognize if someone is a prophet or not? If one thinks and ponder on this question, then it leads you to, what was the analysis done by the earlier recognizer of prophets. We know that some of them were illitrate, simple and unsophisticated yet they were the first to recognize, became steadfast in their faith. What was that? was it just plain foolishness? were they like the followers of insane pir in Rawalpindi?

After that first incident 1400 years ago, it was not like a one time event, for the past 1400 years new comers are entering and recognizing Muhammad. How they do it? some of them do utilize their mind and intellect, but is mind and intellect alone is sufficient?

MIND & HEART

---

God has placed within a human being few controlling factors: the mind, the heart. The mind uses reasoning and intelligence and its job is to be occupied at all times in formulating ideas and forming ever-new thoughts, explanations and arguments. The mind has been assigned the duty of assessing the results and conclusions of various formulations. The heart, on the other hand, is the ‘king’ of the whole being. It does not use argument and proof because it has a link with the king of kings i.e., God almighty. And that is why it is sometimes informed with a clear and evident revelation and sometimes with a secret or hidden revelation. Another way of stating this is to say that the mind is under control of heart. Mind is occupied with formulating ideas and schemes as well as the means and consequences. The heart has no business with that.

Within the heart God has placed the power of instinct as an ant manages to reach exactly the place where there is something sweet. The ant does not have any proof of the fact that there is something sweet at a certain place. It reaches there because God has provided it with the instinct that guides it. In this sense heart shares similarity with the ant because it too has an instinctive sense within it that guides it and that does not depend upon proofs, arguments, conclusions and results. However it is quite another matter that the mind is able to and does provide such proofs for the ‘heart’.

One meaning of the heart is apparent and physical. The other meaning of the heart is spiritual. The literal meaning of the term Qalb [Arabic for heart] is that which moves around or returns. As the heart is the source of circulation of blood in the body, it is referred to as Qalb. In the spiritual sense it’s meaning is that the progress that a human being wishes to achieve is also based around ‘heart’. Just as the circulation of blood, crucial for sustaining human life, originates from the heart, so the spiritual progress is dependent upon the spiritual heart.

Some ignorant people including some philosophers of today, who place the mind at the center of all the best activity, do not know that this mind is only the seat of cognitive powers of reasoning and argument. The power of thought and memory is in the mind but there is as an aspect of the heart that makes it the ultimate sovereign inside human body. The activity of the mind has a contrived element about it that is not present in the case of the ‘heart’. That is why the heart bears a resemblance to Rabb-ul-Arsh, that is, the Lord of the Heavenly Throne. The ‘heart’ is able to recognize spiritual truths without proofs and arguments, purely through its instinctive powers. That is why it is stated in a Hadith of the Holy Prophet: “Istafil qalba”, that is, ask your heart for a verdict – it does not states ask your mind for a verdict.

It is to the heart that the ‘cord’ of God is linked and no one should consider this a far-fetched idea. It is, indeed, difficult and abstruse but those who purify themselves know that the heart does possesses such noble qualities. If the heart did not possess such qualities, then the very existence of the human being would have been considered useless. The Sufis and those who carry out spiritual exercises know this well that the heart has been seen giving out light in the form of pillars of light that reach towards the skies in a straight line. This experience is certain and well witnessed. Those who have taken such exercises or those who have decided to journey through the different stages of SALOOK, that is mystic initiation, they have found this to be true according to their experiences. It is as if there is a fine thread connecting Arsh and Qalb, linking the Divine Throne and the spiritual heart. At this stage the Qalb finds pleasure in the commands it receives from its Lord God – it is not dependent upon external proofs and evidence. It becomes MULHIM, that is, one who is a recipient of Divine Revelation, and internally converses with God and forms verdicts. However, it is true that as long as the heart remains only a heart, it becomes a proof of the condition illustrated in the following verse of the Holy Quran:

“If we had but listened or possessed sense” (CH 67:11)

That is, there is a time when a human being does not possess the powers of heart and mind, Then there comes a time when the mind develops its powers and faculties and then a time comes when the Qalb becomes engulfed by light – a light bursts forth and it is illuminated. When the time comes for the ‘heart’ to come to the fore, the human being attains spiritual maturity and the heart rules over the mind. At that stage, the powers of the mind do not have supremacy over the heart. It should be noted that the different states of the mind are not specific to the believers alone. All use the mind alike. Those who are involved in worldly affairs and in trade and business all use the powers of the mind and their mental faculties develop to the full. Every day new ideas and inventions are made to further their affairs.

However, when the work of the Qalb is carried out, it is then that a person becomes God’s. It is at that time that all inner powers of rule and control become under the power and rule of the ‘heart’, which attains a firm control, power and strength. It is at such a stage that a human being becomes a complete human being. This is the time when he becomes a living proof of the following verse of the Holy Qura’n where God states:

“I have breathed into him of My Spirit” (CH 15:30)

It is a time when even the angels prostrate before him. At that time he becomes a new human being. His soul is filled with pleasure and joy. It should be remembered that this pleasure does not resemble the carnal pleasure of an adulterer, nor does it resembles the enjoyment that is gained by listening to singing. No, it does not resemble any such thing and this should not deceive one. The pleasure of the soul is attained when a person’s being begins to melt and flow like water at the thought of and fear of God. It is at such a stage that he becomes the ‘Kalima’, that is, ‘the work’ and the essence of this verse:

“Verily His command, when He intends a thing, is only that he says to it ``Be” and it is.”(CH 36:83)

Malang (#174),

Your questions seem less like sincere inquiries … and more geared towards seeking conflict.

You started your inquiry by accusing me of misleading others and hiding information. You go on to accuse Ahmadis of distorting Islam. You end your post by what seems like a threat … that you have ``a lot more inside stuff `` on Ahmadis.

… and all the while you kept repeating that you are a peaceful individual, with no desire to get into fruitless debates.

Make up your mind: you are either a sincere fellow with questions … or a fanatic looking to hurl insults. Once you decide what you are, ask again. Fair enough?

Ballukhan,

… in a way you are right … that all religions have some element of superstition. And if that is the case … then arguably the entire institution may as well be fed to the dogs …

… my problem with religious zealots is that they use two set of criteria: one to validate their own views … and the other to criticize others. This is usually followed by the witch-hunt of the accused. Consistency in reasoning is worth striving for. No one can justifiably claim monopoly over truth … salvation …or morality. People need to loosen up … have a drink … and for every casual Friday, have a cross-dressing Monday (as eloquently stated by Mr. Tom Peters himself) …

… on a different note … the place of pilgrimage for Ahmadis remains Mecca … although they associate great importance to the town of Qadian … the birth place of Mirza Sahib … and visit it when they get a chance …

++++++++++++

tahmed …

… I was off for the weekend Sahib … you should also take a break every now and them.

You seem to have your head stuck in a metaphorical gutter ... and are looking for filth where none exists. Your prankster comments reflect your own mindset more than anything else.

If you concern yourself too much about the moral index of others (or mrs sattar, for that matter) … you’ll explode one of these days. Self-righteousness is a mental disease, so try to get rid of it …

Tahmed … you are much senior to me in age, exposure, and experience. Why do you continue to behave like a child… and invite humiliation upon yourself? It hurts me to treat you like some blithering idiot. I hope you soon get over your moral anxieties ... and stop this delusional crusade of yours …

Beats the hell out of me!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Nope. As it turns out she is not the same person I am talking about.
http://freshair.npr.org/guest_info_fa.jhtml?name=2003/joycedavis

ZahraJ:

I don`t really know if she is the same person you`re talking about. I do not watch CNN regularly. I myself don`t know much about her. The book is quite readable and interseting. I didn`t perceive any religious bias and she wrote with open mind.

Many of our people (even some learned scholars) seem still to be living in medieval times. But that`s another story.

Mohammad Gill

Freethinker:

Thanks for the correction. Is she the Jewish Professor(DC) who was on CNN quite often after 09/11? If she is the same person then I must say that she was quite vocal of her respect and support of Islam, but she took the muslims very lightly based on what and who she came across. That`s another irony or I should say a slap across the face. But then these are things out of one`s control. And, draining your energies on such matters is not worth the time and effort.

Regards.

Zahraj:

Joyce Davis whose book I had quoted in my article is `she` not `he` and her last name is Davis not David. I suspect she knew the contentious nature of the question: Who is a Muslim? That is the reason she raised this issue. She might well have been aware of the Justice Munir report also. I hadn`t realized that my article would generate such a heated debate.

Mohammad Gill

[Although Davis did consider the definition of a Muslim given by Saleemi as somewhat light, not necessarily complete, and given unprepared and on the spur of the moment, but on second thought, what else is there? ]

Thank God David only spoke to Saleemi about the said question. Had he gotten 10 muslims in one room, he would have heard 10 different myths. And, the rest should better be left unsaid :)

Regards.

The song for all seasons: