Who is a Muslim?

sadna

The guy is jut trying to get your attention. You know when a guy says `no`, it means `yes`.

Romair #107
Yup. A one line mail from me on chowk can disrupt your important discussion on Islam and bring down the whole Pakistani nation, triggering a nuclear holocaust and making little children wail in Papua N Guinea.

Romair You Wrote:

``As I have stated, I disagree with the above. Anyone who is not an Ahmedi, would obviously disagree with it (otherwise they would have become Ahmedi).``

This is a little, not clear to me, so I just want to make sure, that you are not disagreeing on this

``The answer is ``Every prophet of God did, what He was told by God, and they were at highest level of steadfastness and faith``

But you disagree with Ahmadies about thier point of view and you disagree with Mirza Shahib on his cliam. If yes, then fair enough. Everyone have the right to keep a disagreement and follow a civil discourse in order to understand other`s perspective.

If not, then please elaborate what is the part of this statement you disagree.

``The answer is ``Every prophet of God did, what He was told by God, and they were at highest level of steadfastness and faith``

I also would like to know, as we are discussing, what is the basis of discussion, in this sense,

1. On the basis of Rationality & Reason alone
2. On the basis of Quran alone
3. On the bases of Quran & Rationality & Reason
4. Anything else

Appreciate your responce.

Romair then you asked a hypothetical Question, a good one.

``Suppose, tomorrow, I declare myself to be a prophet. Suppose I am genuinely and honestly convinced that I am one. I do not do it for personal reasons, but, for what I feel to be public reasons. And genuinely for the good of mankind.

And I start preaching my teachings as a prophet of Islam. And I suffer for it, in the manner that you have described. Would you support me, or would you oppose me? Would you consider me a prophet or would you not?``

In answering this Question I have to Qutoe this, eventhough we are debating as one-on-one, there is a third person in this debate and lets see how he alluded to this Question,

Khalq connotes physical birth and Khulq connotes inner birth. As inner birth is perfected through moral development and not merely through the exercise of natural impulses, Khulq connotes moral qualities and not natural impulses. It should be pointed out that the common conception that morals merely mean meekness, courtesy and humility is entirely mistaken. The truth is that corresponding to every physical action there is an inner quality which is moral; for instance a person sheds tears through the eyes and corresponding to that action there is an inner quality which is called tenderness, which takes on the character of a moral quality when under the control of reason it is exercised on its proper occasion.

In the same way, a person defends himself against the attack of an enemy with his hands, and corresponding to this action there is an inner quality which is called bravery. When this quality is exercised at its proper place and on its proper occasion, it is called a moral quality. Similarly a person sometimes seeks to relieve the oppressed from the oppression of tyrants, or desires to make provision for the indigent and the hungry. Or wishes to serve his fellow beings in some other way, and corresponding to such action there is an inner quality which is designated mercy. Sometimes a person punishes a wrongdoer and corresponding to such action there is an inner quality which is called retribution. Sometimes a person does not wish to attack one who attacks him and forbears to take action against a wrongdoer, corresponding to which there is a quality which is called forbearance or endurance.

Sometimes a person works with his hands or feet or employs his mind and intellect or his wealth in order to promote the welfare of his fellow beings, corresponding to which there is an inner quality which is called benevolence. Thus when a person exercises all these qualities on their proper occasions and at their proper places they are called moral qualities. God, the Glorious, has addressed the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, in the words: Thou dost most surely possess high moral excellencies (68 :5).

This means that all high moral qualities such as benevolence, courage, justice, mercy, bountifulness, sincerity, high mindedness etc. were combined in the person of the Holy Prophet. In short all the natural qualities of man as courtesy, modesty, integrity, benevolence, jealousy, steadfastness, chastity, piety, equity, sympathy, bravery, generosity, forbearance, endurance, bountifulness, sincerity, loyalty etc., when they are manifested on their proper occasions under the guidance of reason and reflection would all be accounted moral qualities. In reality they are the natural states and impulses of man and are designated moral qualities when they are exercised deliberately on their proper occasions. A natural characteristic of man is that he desires to make progress and, therefore, through following a true religion and keeping good company and conforming to good teachings he converts his natural impulses into moral qualities. No other animal is invested with this characteristic.
[Philosophy of Teachings of Islam by Mirza Ghalam Ahmad]

Now going to your question, it seems that you are motivated by benevolance of your fellow
human beings. But you mentioned two possiblities here.

1. That you feign that you are a prophet, Basically you are making a lie for a bigger cause.
2. That desire of benevolance of fellow human beings is so strong that it convinces you that you are a Prophet.

I would assume that You are aware of the hardships, adversity and disrtress faced by known Prophets in history and before you. No informed person would even think of claiming a false Prophethood.

But if you are carried away by the benevolance of your fellow human bings then God is suffice for you, because God does not like any intentional or unintentional lie associated with him.

Exmpale of this is like if someone goes to a country and he is either a super con-artist or very clever, and he either falsely or motivated by some other desire establishes himself as representative of Govt of Pakistan. What will happen when Gove of Pakistan would find out about it.

And if you are a Prophet of God and you are accused of feigned noble intentions, then this also is a tradition for Prophets, they are always labeled as such.

Urstruly,

… while you read #89 … which I much appreciate … do read #91 as well … esp. the last para which makes the point about your defeatist Muslim psyche with biting humor.

So you now want me to write on Mirza Sahib and Ahmadi-Muslim views? What good would that do to you … if you still cannot grasp the basic message of Quran … and insist on stoning adulteress women to death, while hanging from a tree anyone who decides to leave Islam. This is not a joke … but a serious question. Add to this waging jihad against polytheists … and an in-bred desire to kill blasphemers … and you come across as one ignorant, violent fool.

You also made some low, incorrect claims about Mirza Sahib, but failed to back them when I called your bluff. In an attempt to revile Zafrullah Khan Sahib, you made up lies about partition … but failed to back them up when challenged by others. You did not even have decency to admit that you bungled up. Dude, I have come across post-op transvestites in downtown San Francisco … who were more of men then you will ever be. Read this with humor, or take it literally … it works both ways.

And your claims about Mirza Sahib’s writings … are once again based on lies … told by the web-sites you keep visiting. Pick up any of his book … and read for yourself pal … before putting too much faith in your web-mullahs.

Romair #107,

``People need a thick skin if they are going to interact with others, over
an open forum``

Open is the operative word here - Sadna can comment on anything she likes,
you can ignore her all you want.

Tahmed #108,

``If this is the best the Lord can do, then with all due respect He needs to
attend a three-week creativity workshop.``

So very true. However, Lord is getting up there in age - I don`t think three
weeks will suffice.

Hmmmm.....How about a person who embodies all the qualities listed below:
FANATIC
JIHADI
RAPIST
CORRUPT
MYOPIC
DISHONEST
IMPURE
PERVERT
LUDICROUS
DEPRAVED
DEBAUCHED
SHADY
SINISTER
CROOK
MALIGNANT
OBNOXIOUS
LIAR
SCHEMER
UNGRATEFUL
ACRIMONIOUS
CHURLISH
.........and the list goes on and on and on......

urstruly: ``That is the reason human beings are best of His creations.``

If this is the best the Lord can do, then with all due respect He needs to attend a three-week creativity workshop.

sadna #106: There is an interesting and informative discussion going on here. Could I request you to not cause any trouble. Or would that be too much to ask? I do not interact with you, so could I also request you to not attempt to interact with me, unless I specifically mention your name. Thanks.....

P.S. everyone is an adult here. You are not anyone`s mother, here. So it is not a good idea to attempt to be that, even if someone asks you to. I am more than happy to address any queries about my comments, in any manner, if made by any individual, whom I refer to. I have no problem with apologizing to people, if they get offended. Or not apologizing, if I feel an apology is not warranted.

People need a thick skin if they are going to interact with others, over an open forum. I have seen more than enough Pakistani women, easily and openly make fun of men on this site; specifically Pakistani men. It has never bothered me, and I have actually found it amusing. Since I know much of it is in jest.

A little controversy, a little humor, a little criticism, always adds spice to a discussion. As long as one has a certain amount of trust with the interactor.

I only interact with people, who know I mean them no ill-will. Even the one`s who completely disagree with everything I have to say. After interacting with them over time, I think there is a certain amount of trust that develops. While I will do my best to try to prove them wrong every time they debate something with me, and on occassion will tease them and make fun of them, I would never do anything to break their trust. And I accept the same and tolerate the same from them.....

You and I, obviously, do not have that trust. That is why I avoid interacting with you. Perhaps I could request you to avoid interacting with me, as well.......Or is that too much to ask.....

So, how about minding your own business.......at least with respect to me.......

sattar and Romair
Cut the cr_p and leave chowk women out of your religious pontifications(which despite your lengthy professions clearly have not done you any good).

Sattar

After reading Romair`s post addressed to you I read your #89; the first time I saw it I stopped reading after the first line seeing that you were trying to be a comedian. Your comedy is perfectly fine with me and I have never objected to it but this time you have really crossed the line of normal decency. Dragging an unrelated person into a dialogue in this way vividly exhibits your meanness and total lack of self-respect and dignity. Don`t you see that the conflict and tumult inside you is now compelling you to hurt innocent people. This is not the way grown up and decent people behave. Don`t you see that a moment of self-realization is upon you. It is time that you accept the truth and free your soul for ever. Avoiding the truth will only make you even more bitter; and it will compell you to hurt yourself and others. My arms are wide open as a brother. People say `to forgive is divine`, I say ` to accept ones error` is divine. That is the reason human beings are best of His creations. If you feel like it, write to me at:

naalaique@netscape.net

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Lately, the most disappointing aspect on Chowk is the desire to put a halt on human brain`s evolution. On any topic regarding Muslims and related subject, one only finds back and forth back stabbing vs. facing each other like real men and presenting one`s point of view in a sensible manner. Also, accetance is missing that one person`s view may completely differ from the other person due to their own experiences.

Personally, once upon a time I used to find some nicks/writers real sweet on Chowk due to their contributions and straightforward perspectives...Lately 95% are not worth the effort of reading once. My apologies for my bluntness.

Expressing your perspectives is one thing. But making constant ridicule of others as your daily bread and butter is simply unacceptable.

Ironically, our men are not civilized and cultured enough to engage in a conversation with their own gender. God forbid, if they are exchanging views with the opposite gender they may be hiding their faces in some scarves and shivering underneath.

Once upon a time, when I was critiquing the boorish behavior, a senior fellow commented, ``guys like to joke around.``

``In other words, they are jokers?`` I inquired.

Afsoas Sud Afsoas...

Urstruly:
Some important observations here in the uniqueness, consistentsy, and greatness of Al-Qura`an.

here is the link for those interested in reading good highly informative columns: not cavasjee/mazdak type anglo-gibberish

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/mar2004-daily/04-03-2004/editorial/col4.gif

RizwanAhmad #94: ``The answer is ``Every prophet of God did, what He was told by God, and they were at highest level of steadfastness and faith``

Thanks for the explanation.

As I have stated, I disagree with the above. Anyone who is not an Ahmedi, would obviously disagree with it (otherwise they would have become Ahmedi).

At the same time, you could be right and I could be wrong. Hence I will limit my disagreement to my personal sphere. That is why, I don`t think anyone has a right to declare anyone else a non-Muslim. But if I am going to argue with Urstruly, based on what I disagree with him on, I think, to be objective, I need to present an argument to you, as well. And hopefully get a response.

I agree with your description of how and why prophets behaved in a certain way. Suppose, tomorrow, I declare myself to be a prophet. Suppose I am genuinely and honestly convinced that I am one. I do not do it for personal reasons, but, for what I feel to be public reasons. And genuinely for the good of mankind.

And I start preaching my teachings as a prophet of Islam. And I suffer for it, in the manner that you have described. Would you support me, or would you oppose me? Would you consider me a prophet or would you not?

sattar2 #89: ``and ZahraJ is now ready to dump her white, live-in boyfriend in favor of nikah to the fat, smelly imam of the grand mosque in detroit``

ZahraJ has a white live-in boyfriend? How the hell did I miss that one. When did that happen? Not that I have anything against or for it. Just curious.

Chowk-Staff, there needs to be a gossip section added to the front page. Discussions on religion can get boring, after a while. But gossip is always interesting......

Sattar:

As a matter of fact why don`t you write an essay at chowk explaining why Quadianiat is the next best thing and how and why humanity is doomed towards a painful end unless they embrace the message of Quadianiat. I think that would be quite an educational experience for the folk at chowk.