Who is a Muslim?

#157 by tahmed32,

Leave Ispahani alone. He is in his own world. Can`t you see? He is above and beyond!!!!
Respect him for what he is. I hope you understand.

hamidm2,
I admire you truthfulness and dishing out as it is. I agree with your prophet and religio-fundo-Nakid fakir.
It takes a deep wisdom to follow the truth and that is beyond the poor guy you are preaching. He is another Ispahani in making just less honest and more full of himself.

Dear Readers:

So, who is a Muslim? Is there any conclusive agreement? It seems to me that Saleemi`s definition, after all, is least contentious because it is the `common denominator` of all.

A`ay keh nashinasi khafi ra az jali hushiar baash
A`ay griftar-e- Abu Bakr-o-Ali hushiar baash.
(Iqbal)

Mohammad Gill

zahraj,

.......... you are beginning to sound like mrs hamidm ............ the only time i get any respect is when my mother-in-law is visiting ......... now there is a real woman who will not put up with her daughter treating her man like a woman - bringing her chai and washing dishes! ............ i love my mother-in-law.......... they don`t make women they way they used to ............you too should listen to your mother and leave us men folk alone while we are discussing the coming of the next prophet ............. by the way, arn`t you curious why there weren`t any women prophets ?????

.......... i will let you in on a little secret ......... pssssst, `` allah had at least two daughter al-lat and manat, but a male prophet made him disown them because he was jealous``..........

.......... now, go and knit a sweater for your man ..............

hamidm #145: There is something that is now bothering me more than this religious debate. I am dealing with a bigger issue now:

I went back to re-read your prevsious reply. You stated, ``anyway, in this little bazaar there used to be a schizophrenic faqir who would walk around butt naked - alif nanga........... i watched this guy for years doing his thing``

Now, why would an adult Pakistani male watch an alif nanga faqir, ``for years doing his thing.`` I can understand being curious, once, or twice (or ok, maybe even three times). But, for a whole year!!!!

I am really starting to get worried. Your description of your behavior in this situation is more worrying, for me, than the behavior of the faqir......Are there parts of your personality that we have not been exposed to. Or you have yet to explore :-)

hamidm #155: ``?.........simply because he did make it to people who were a lot more civilized/sophisticated than sheep herding bedouins ...............

............. you see, my dear friend, this prophethood thing is a lot simpler than we make it out to be ...................... ``

I think I did get your point.

Whenever one discusses an issue, it is done within the framework of a domain. What is being discussed is not who can declare him/herself to be a prophet, in general. What is being discussed is how and why and when and where prophethood is/can be declared withing the context of one particular religion, i.e Islam.

Anyone, anywhere can declare himself to be a prophet. And can even start a new religion. I have nothing against or for that. It is his/her choice. There could be a million different religions. Its a free world.

We are only discussing it from an Islamic perspective. Is, and how is, someone a prophet within the boundaries of Islam. And do people have a right to declare themselves to be the Mahdi (again within the boundaries of Islam). And what criteria should be used.

Obviously, this would be immaterial to someone who does not follow Islam. And they should be least bothered about it. But to those, who do follow Islam, this is of a lot of importance. This doesn`t mean we should kill each other, or declare each other to be non-Muslim. But they have a right to present their view in a civilized manner.

If the people of pindora, declared the nanga faqir to be a prophet, who started his own religion. That is his choice. If they declared him to be a prophet within Islam, then it becomes a part of the discussion. Whether it is easy or difficult is immaterial.

Ispahani #150 Your post seems nice. If only I could make head or tail of it. Alas!!
Is this Aramaic in which you write your posts?

romair,

............. i think you are not getting the point of my story ......... the pir of pindora would have made it as a prophet in seventh century mecca or first century bethlehem ............ today, in a civilized society, they would haul him off to a lunatic asylum or, in a place like pakistan, hang him for apostasy .............actually, come to think of it, they did crucify HIM for apostasy even back then ............ some just got lucky .............. now, if you really put some thought into, it mirza ghulam ahmed`s claim is much more credible than those who preceeded him .......... why?.........simply because he did make it to people who were a lot more civilized/sophisticated than sheep herding bedouins ...............

............. you see, my dear friend, this prophethood thing is a lot simpler than we make it out to be ......................

To all the little babies on this board:

I just wanted to let you know that I neither read any post that prompted me to write my previous discourses nor intend to look into that. I just wrote my observations as I skimmed through this board and felt like summarizing my overall impression.




Romair:

Thank you for clarifying some specific attributes that are possessed by your gender. I sincerely mean thank you. It did not strike me. Years ago a senior colleague had also shared with me the wild philosophy practiced by guys. Somehow I had forgotten that little lesson.

On another note: I do not even know what`s the context of your apology. But I guess you must have done something ``real bad`` that you felt like taking the apology route :) Apology Accepted.

I can point out many areas where your assertions or assumptions are wrong and completely off. But I had previouly pointed out that guys with pony tails and marriage can get tipsy in their comprehension of both simple and complex matters of life. I do not intend to invest my time in point by point analysis of your post, but I do want to mention that basic manners have certain core principles.

That`s it.


Chivalrous Hamidm:

Maeree Chai Kahan Hae?

Kahan Hae Maeree Chai ?

Kya Abhi Tuk Brew Ho Rahi Hae?

I demand a prompt response or a pre-paid voucher for Starbuck`s White Tea - Grande Size.

Thank You!

sattar2 #153

And Verily, When admonished from trying to pick up women on Chowk, they will respond with anger and frustration. When reminded that begum sattar (who must stay behind a burqa, while Mr. sattar messes around with women), they will respond with toilet talk. Such are the signs of the hypocrite.

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sattar2

Is Qadian in Indian Punjab a place of pilgrimage for those of the Ahmaddiya faith?

142 by sattar2 on March 5, 2004 11:21am PT
The fact of the matter is that every religion is based upon some ``superstition`` or other, institutionalized religion needs such ``extra- natural`` references in order to validate itself- intuitionistic communication of God`s revelations is based upon such an ``extra-natural`` mode of communication. So Miyan, let us not over-intellectualize. Leave this discussion for our mullahs.
Hamidm has more meat in his insights about prophethood than any over-intellectualized presentation about prophets of past (complete with orginal references). There has been great ``political`` struggles in the past over this concept- the struggles between those who want all to believe that some community of followers have a monopoly over what the God has to reveal. By keeping open to the possibility of his kindness in revealing to appropriate persons in all periods of difficulties is a way to redeem our faith in him.

Romair,

I earlier argued on Qruanic perspective on a person’s character, and future prophets being foretold by earlier prophets. Here’s more … (longish post … sorry …)

Quran on prophethood

Quran supports coming of future prophets, and contrary to commonly held belief, it does not indicate that prophethood has ended.

Quran does specify a criterion for truthfulness of a prophet. Regarding Prophet Muhammad it says something along the lines … “if he had associated any lies with Us, We would have grabbed him by the right hand and cut off his life line, and no one could have stopped Us from doing so”.

Implicit here is the message … that no false prophet will ever succeed in his mission, and he will be humiliated in this very world. Islamic history attests to this fact. During the past 1400 years, several individuals have made such claims. There was Muslaimah and a few other contemporaries of his back then, and in the recent history there was the Sudanese Mahdi (sometimes in 1960s, I think) and Rashad Khalifaa as late as approximately 1980s.

In juxtaposition to the Quranic admonishment (which is more like an outright threat) against associating lies with Allah, Mirza Sahib openly and boldly claimed in no uncertain words … “I swear in the name of Allah in Whose hands is my life … that I am the Imam of this age … “ … and so forth.

From the tiny, backward town of Qadian, Mirza Sahib made bold claims. Today his community consists of over 100 million Ahmadi-Muslims all over the world, with almost 100% literacy rates, thousands of hospitals, schools, mosques, and education centers in each county of the world … their own satellite network broadcasting Islamic programs in all major languages … unanimity on true Islam … where we reject killing of apostates, adulterers, blasphermers etc. … and believe that days of fighting jihad are behind us … and acquisition of knowledge and striving for peace should be the goal of each Muslim. Despite severe opposition, one cannot find a single event where the Ahmadi jamaat resorted to violence and hatred in any form. We shun worldly political and financial influence, and invoke Allah’s help as members of His community. Such is the power of a prophet … which remains unmatched by any secular leader or fake prophet of the world.

More on Quranic perspective …

My view is that when Allah raises prophets … He also informs the believers about their arrival. We Ahmadis encourage each person to look into claims of Mirza Sahib, Quran, ahadith, and then decide for himself. If the picture is still not clear, refer the matter to Allah. We have no doubt that if a person sincerely implores Allah for help in this matter, Allah will give a sign to each person. This is an attribute of the Living God.

I know several people who accepted Ahmadiyyat due to dreams and visions. They prayed earnestly to Allah and referred the matter to Him. Quran mentions in Surah-e-Nahal … that Allah sends revelation to even honey bees. Human beings are Allah’s finest creation … and we believe that He responds to prayers to each believer as well.

More on ahadith

Genuineness of ahadith remains somewhat questionable … I agree. However, for all ahadith to be wrong, and fit Mirza Sahib … is too much of a coincidence.

One can (and perhaps should) study ahadith as historical books. For several ahadith, from various sources … to point to similar issues … suggests something more than one’s imagination. We find in Torah … which is much older than ahadith … traces of truth ... which were later confirmed by Quran. I do not think one can justifiably discard all ahadith ... and ignore their historical value altogether.

++++++++++++++++

tahmed,

… your fetish for being a moral crusader is quite sickening. Perhaps now that taliban are gone … and the moral police of Kabul got fired … you have too much time on your hands. Here’s some sincere advice …

… you should visit your proctologist … yes, the same one who lost his index finger during your previous visit. Judging from your behavior, it seems he can still recover it … and that might bring you some comfort after all …

++++++++++++++++

hamidm Sahib … if people of pindora want a local prophet of their own … and use his dargah as a hangout place to smoke green tobacco … who am I to protest …

… and who is to say that Muhammad himself did not hang around a cave in order to avoid domestic chores …

Lo! I have seen the light! I have discoverd the problem with the muslim world!!

We did not have a Christ who suffered for our sins. So we suffer instead.

We suffer fools and charlatans and pirs and fakirs and maulvis and jamaatiyas and mard-i-momins. We suffer dictators and would-be caliphs. We suffer tents walking our streets, supposedly with a half-suffocated woman inside. We suffer individuals who try to pick up women on chowk while pretending to have a heated religious discussion. And when admonished they pay no heed (as in Sattar2#146 last para). We suffer men who worship Dead Men and give themselves fancy names like naqshbandi. Thus do we suffer, lacking a savior!! We suffer not 4 Gospel writers, but 1 billion!!

And so we all cry out as Jesus cried out: ``Oh Father that art in heaven! Why hast thou forsaken us!!``

(Breaking now into Aramaic)

Goddamthesebloodyhalfbrainedarabicchantingfrauds. Amen.

hamidm #145: ``it seems that somewhere along the line the people of pindora had discovered that the naked faqir was actually a prophet and when he died they buried him under the pipal tree and set up a shop for god ................ a prophet was born``

Ummm....I wouldn`t say prophet. Probably a pir of some sort, was born. Or a Sufi of some sort, was born. This, I think, is quite common in Pakistan. You can take a grave anywhere. Put some small green flags around it. And attach a story to it. And it will get a life of its own, with followers. The person in the grave is declared a pir (though not a prophet). Many people have actually argued that it is better than following Qazi Hussain and Maulana Fazl. I might tend to agree with them.

The important questions you need to ask yourself, are,

``Are the people of pindora happy?``
``Are they happier now, than they would have been, without the, ``shop``?. If they are then, why do their actions bother you, so much?``
``If you didn`t have the money and resources to fly of to the land of freedom, would you have joined the people of pindora?``
``Are they harming anyone by going to their, ``shop for God?``
``How well did you really know the, ``nanga faqir?`` Maybe, he died, saving someone`s life, and died a hero.``
``Does the light in the refrigerator actually go off, when one shuts the door?``
``Who paints all the Ms on the M&Ms?``..............

sattar2: #142: I can neither agree, nor disagree with your comments. What you have stated can be true. So, with that part one has to be agree. At the same time, what you have stated, could be applied on so many other cases also, that they could be considered true, as well.

The whole concept of the genuineness of hadith, to me at least, is controversial. I still cannot see, how it is logically possible for all of them to be genuine. But, lets assume that they are genuine.

Now, based on your argument, all the rules apply to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, for him to be a prophet. But, at the same time, I think people must accept that the rules are so abstract that they could apply to quite a few other people also. Would you agree or disagree with this?

Hence, my belief, that one can never be sure, who is a prophet and who isn`t. It is just a matter of belief. If after death, we find out that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the Mahdi, then your view turns out to be correct. If we find out that he wasn`t, then the non-Ahmedi view turns out to be correct.

The only way to be sure, is to prove the genuineness of the Quran, in a manner which does not contradict science. If it turns out that the Quran is not genuine, then all of Islam goes out the door. If it turns out that it is genuine, then everything mentioned about prophets in the Quran is legitimate. But we still would not know about the genuineness of individuals who come after the Quran. Since only hints are given, without exact names.

Based on this, maybe people can agree to take the, ``safe/non-discriminating`` way, i.e. Is Mirzah Ghulam Ahmad, the Madhi. ``I don`t know``, (hence, ``No``) for the non-Ahmedis. And, ``Yes``, for the Ahmedis.