Mohammad Gill February 29, 2004
#1 Posted by seep on February 29, 2004 8:02:21 pm
Assalam o alaikum.
your piece of writing provides substantial food for thought. however, there are a few things i would like to raise.
``..if the ulama of the various sects ...``
you mention the word sects; a word very commonly used today referring to shias, sunnis, boris, khojas, aga khanis and so on and although you can trace the birth of these ``sects`` through history, we have no proof of the existence of ANY sect during the time of the Prophet(SAW). it is thus inappropropriate to propogate an idea or belief that is not in accordance with the essence of Islam.
``“Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you ( O Muhammad SAW) have no concern with them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do”
(Surah 6 Al –Anam, Verse 159)
i personally believe that such differences should not be considered anything more than different schools of opinion.
The end of the article is slightly abrupt in the sense that you succeeded in raising a valid question in our mind-What is a Muslim? but did not provide adequate insight into the answer.
I mean no offense by my criticism and hope it is taken in good faith.
your piece of writing provides substantial food for thought. however, there are a few things i would like to raise.
``..if the ulama of the various sects ...``
you mention the word sects; a word very commonly used today referring to shias, sunnis, boris, khojas, aga khanis and so on and although you can trace the birth of these ``sects`` through history, we have no proof of the existence of ANY sect during the time of the Prophet(SAW). it is thus inappropropriate to propogate an idea or belief that is not in accordance with the essence of Islam.
``“Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you ( O Muhammad SAW) have no concern with them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do”
(Surah 6 Al –Anam, Verse 159)
i personally believe that such differences should not be considered anything more than different schools of opinion.
The end of the article is slightly abrupt in the sense that you succeeded in raising a valid question in our mind-What is a Muslim? but did not provide adequate insight into the answer.
I mean no offense by my criticism and hope it is taken in good faith.
#2 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on February 29, 2004 11:10:22 pm
Gill
I think the best is not even to get into this controversy.
If some one says that he is Christian, that should be good enough.
If some one says that he is a Buddhist, that should be good enough.
If some one says that he believes in a two-headed God, that should be good enough.
and similarly,
if some one says that he is a Muslim, that should be good enough.
Who are others to define his religion for him?
#4 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on March 1, 2004 4:08:25 am
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#5 Posted by seep on March 1, 2004 4:08:27 am
Nazar sahab,
there are some myths about questioning. and one very widely believed is that to question means to doubt. with all due respect, to question is only to discover, rediscover, affirm or reaffirm our faith in something. Therefore, to question our identity or others is not disrespect or suspiscion but a reassurance or a fulfilment of vaccum of knowledge.
there are some myths about questioning. and one very widely believed is that to question means to doubt. with all due respect, to question is only to discover, rediscover, affirm or reaffirm our faith in something. Therefore, to question our identity or others is not disrespect or suspiscion but a reassurance or a fulfilment of vaccum of knowledge.
#6 Posted by echoboom on March 1, 2004 4:59:24 am
A very apt and relevant article by Hamid Mir--Pakistan`s Ace journalist. Of course writes in Urdu.
It is sad that the Paki-illiterates ( ``My urdu is weak`` type ignoramuses) cannot be as well informed because they cannot read this.

It is sad that the Paki-illiterates ( ``My urdu is weak`` type ignoramuses) cannot be as well informed because they cannot read this.

#7 Posted by Urstruly on March 1, 2004 7:26:54 am
Echoboom
I think we the expatriate Paksitanis should arrange protests at Pakistani Embassies and Consulates, UN Human Rights Commission, and at other offices to force Paksiatni military to stop the massacares of Pakistani civilians and other crimes against humanity at once. As if genocide of East Paksitanis by power hungary blood thirsty military despots of Na Pak fauj was not enough for their resume and now this.... When are these despots going to stop murdering Paksitani citizens. Enough is enough
I think we the expatriate Paksitanis should arrange protests at Pakistani Embassies and Consulates, UN Human Rights Commission, and at other offices to force Paksiatni military to stop the massacares of Pakistani civilians and other crimes against humanity at once. As if genocide of East Paksitanis by power hungary blood thirsty military despots of Na Pak fauj was not enough for their resume and now this.... When are these despots going to stop murdering Paksitani citizens. Enough is enough
#8 Posted by Romair on March 1, 2004 7:54:51 am
Anyone who says they are a Muslim, should be considered one. Otherwise, the majority sect of the area(s) will end up defining who is and isn`t one. After that, one has to leave it up to God to decide, whether the person who says he/she is a Muslim, actually is one.
The, ``safest`` way to look at Islam, is to look at it in its most abstract form. Which is the Quran, itself. Everything below that is beaurecracy.
The other thing that needs to be done is for every Muslim to study the Quran, by him/herself, without relying on scholars and shiekhs and sects and fiqahs, etc. That is how the Quran is supposed to have been read.
After that, every Muslim needs to indulge in some self-evaluation and a personal discovery of his/her religion. Again all by him/herself, independent of anyone else`s influence.
At that time, he/she will reach his/her own understanding of Islam. That is what he/she should follow. If he/she wants to preach it, he/she should do so. But never through any kind of force, nor in a self-righteous manner (something evident on Chowk).
If he/she is not impressed by Islam, after studying it, he/she should leave it, and become a Bhuddhist or an athiest. And should then, spend his/her time studying that. And not bother the rest of us Muslims. And not try to belittle Islam, just because it did not appeal to them (as many individuals on this site tend to do).
Being self-righteous about Islam, as well as belittling and making fun of it are too opposing acts. But both are signs of an inferiority complex and indicate a huge lack of self-confidence in the individual carrying out these activities.
The, ``safest`` way to look at Islam, is to look at it in its most abstract form. Which is the Quran, itself. Everything below that is beaurecracy.
The other thing that needs to be done is for every Muslim to study the Quran, by him/herself, without relying on scholars and shiekhs and sects and fiqahs, etc. That is how the Quran is supposed to have been read.
After that, every Muslim needs to indulge in some self-evaluation and a personal discovery of his/her religion. Again all by him/herself, independent of anyone else`s influence.
At that time, he/she will reach his/her own understanding of Islam. That is what he/she should follow. If he/she wants to preach it, he/she should do so. But never through any kind of force, nor in a self-righteous manner (something evident on Chowk).
If he/she is not impressed by Islam, after studying it, he/she should leave it, and become a Bhuddhist or an athiest. And should then, spend his/her time studying that. And not bother the rest of us Muslims. And not try to belittle Islam, just because it did not appeal to them (as many individuals on this site tend to do).
Being self-righteous about Islam, as well as belittling and making fun of it are too opposing acts. But both are signs of an inferiority complex and indicate a huge lack of self-confidence in the individual carrying out these activities.
#9 Posted by Wahrheit on March 1, 2004 8:28:46 am
Soon the gallant Pakhtun tribesmen will pick weapons in their hands to end army`s terrorist activities against its own people for good.
#10 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on March 1, 2004 8:28:46 am
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#11 Posted by Urstruly on March 1, 2004 8:51:27 am
For fourteen hundered years the definition of a Muslim was not an issue until Allah decided to test our faith by putting us through the challenges of the tumult of Quadianiat and Ahmadiat. In the matter of laws, when a certain group of people is unanimously considered as out of the fold of Islam there is need to define who is considered to be a Muslim and who is not.
The Holy prophet gave us six Kalimas, believing e in which is a necessary condition to become a Muslim. These conditions are prime, unalterable, and inviolable. Muslim jurists have summarised these Kalimas under two headings called as Iman-e-Mujammil & Iman-e-Mufassal - these are basically the core set of believes which Holy Prophet stressed in his teachings throughout his life. In addition, they have also extracted all those beleives which are mentioned and required by Qura`n itself - these may be termed as `derivative beliefs` upon which one`s faith depends as much as on core beilefs but the difference is that the core set of beliefs form the foundation of `derivative believes`.
Her is a list of beliefs by three catagories. One has to have belief in every one of them to be considered a Muslim:
CORE BELIEFS
a. Iman-e-Mujammil
I believe in Allah with all His attributes as described by His names; I accept all of His orders and testify that they are true.
b. Iman-e-Muffassal
``I believe in Allah, in His Angels, His Scriptures, His Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and in the fact that every thing good or bad (in the world) is pre-destined by Allah the Exalted, and in the resurrection after death.``
DERIVATIVE BELIEFS
Derivative Beliefs i.e. the beliefs that follow the core set of beliefs but they are also specifically mentioned in Qura`n
1. Allah the Most Exalted is One.
2. None is worthy of worship and devotion except Allah.
3. There is no partner of Allah.
4. He Knows everything; nothing is hidden from Him
5. He is All Powerful and Mighty.
6. It is He who created the earth, the sky, the moon, the sun, the stars, the angels, human beings, genies and the entire universe.
7. He gives life and death. In other words, life and death of all creatures take place by His command.
8. He feeds all His creation.
9 He does not eat, drink, or sleep.
10. He is Self-existent from eternity and will last till eternity.
11. No one has created Him.
12. He has no father, no son, no daughter, no wife, or other relations. He is above all such relationships.
13. All depend on Him. He does not depend on anyone, and He has no needs.
14. He is Peerless. There is nothing like Him. Nothing resembles Him.
15. He is free from all imperfections.
16. Unlike His creatures, He does not have hands, legs, nose, ears, face and shape.
17. After creating the angels He has appointed them to carry out specific tasks, and to manage the affairs of the universe.
18. He sent messengers for the guidance of His creatures; to teach people how to follow the true religion, do good deeds, and forbid them from the evil things. Prophet Mohammad is the most exalted of all those messengers and LAST IN THE LINE OF PROPHETHOOD.
#12 Posted by Romair on March 1, 2004 10:00:35 am
Urstruly #11: ``For fourteen hundered years the definition of a Muslim was not an issue``
This is not true. The definition of Muslim has been in a confused state, since times immemorial. It is something that is impossible to define. This is why their are so many sects, and sub-sects and schools of thoought.
There are many Sunnis who consider Shias to be non-Muslim. There are many Shias who consider Ahmedis to be non-Muslims. And if there were enough Ahmedis in the world, or in any one region, I am sure they would declare someone in a smaller minority than themselves, to be non-Muslims.
So rest assured, if Pakistan were 95% Ahmedi and 5% Sunnis, then Sunnis would have been declared non-Muslims. These declarations are dependent on politcal power.
The birth of many a sect, in many a religion, actually occurs due to wars. And then, whomever wins those military or political wars, ensures their version remains in the fold of Islam. If Iran and Iraq weren`t Shia, and then number of Shia in the world was tiny, Shias would have been declared non-Muslims, universally.
Even within majority Sunni sects, there have been individuals and schools of thought that have been declared non-Muslim. For example, I do not think Islamic jurisprudence should be based on Hadith, since I am not convinced that Hadith are genuine. Hence, in my opinion, Hadith should only be used for describing history, but not as the word of the Prophet. It is logically impossible for all of them to be accurate.
What does that make me? According to many schools of thought, at the very least a partial non-Muslim. Yet I don`t believe in any school of Islamic thought to begin with. Since I consider them unnecessary beaurecracy. I think every Muslim has a right to have his/her own school of thought. Infact the clergy is not supposed to exist in Islam. The Prophet and the Khalifs were not part of the clergy. So now what do I become?
This does not mean, one cannot have his personal views on Islam. I think a Muslim is someone who belives in the Oneness of God and considers Muhammd to be the final prophet. Hence, in my book, anyone who doesn`t belive in that is violating Islam. However, I have no right to impose my view on a whole society, and get into the business of declaring that peson to be non-Muslims.
Who knows, that other person, may consider me a non-Muslim. Who is right and who is wrong? We need to leave that to God. Otherwise, if someday you end up in a situation where you are part of the minority sect, you may get declared a non-Muslim by the majority. And would be running for your life.
This is not true. The definition of Muslim has been in a confused state, since times immemorial. It is something that is impossible to define. This is why their are so many sects, and sub-sects and schools of thoought.
There are many Sunnis who consider Shias to be non-Muslim. There are many Shias who consider Ahmedis to be non-Muslims. And if there were enough Ahmedis in the world, or in any one region, I am sure they would declare someone in a smaller minority than themselves, to be non-Muslims.
So rest assured, if Pakistan were 95% Ahmedi and 5% Sunnis, then Sunnis would have been declared non-Muslims. These declarations are dependent on politcal power.
The birth of many a sect, in many a religion, actually occurs due to wars. And then, whomever wins those military or political wars, ensures their version remains in the fold of Islam. If Iran and Iraq weren`t Shia, and then number of Shia in the world was tiny, Shias would have been declared non-Muslims, universally.
Even within majority Sunni sects, there have been individuals and schools of thought that have been declared non-Muslim. For example, I do not think Islamic jurisprudence should be based on Hadith, since I am not convinced that Hadith are genuine. Hence, in my opinion, Hadith should only be used for describing history, but not as the word of the Prophet. It is logically impossible for all of them to be accurate.
What does that make me? According to many schools of thought, at the very least a partial non-Muslim. Yet I don`t believe in any school of Islamic thought to begin with. Since I consider them unnecessary beaurecracy. I think every Muslim has a right to have his/her own school of thought. Infact the clergy is not supposed to exist in Islam. The Prophet and the Khalifs were not part of the clergy. So now what do I become?
This does not mean, one cannot have his personal views on Islam. I think a Muslim is someone who belives in the Oneness of God and considers Muhammd to be the final prophet. Hence, in my book, anyone who doesn`t belive in that is violating Islam. However, I have no right to impose my view on a whole society, and get into the business of declaring that peson to be non-Muslims.
Who knows, that other person, may consider me a non-Muslim. Who is right and who is wrong? We need to leave that to God. Otherwise, if someday you end up in a situation where you are part of the minority sect, you may get declared a non-Muslim by the majority. And would be running for your life.
#13 Posted by sattar2 on March 1, 2004 10:21:58 am
Before we get into defining a Muslim, it is important to establish the framework and basis for this inquiry. In my opinion, “Muslim” has two meanings …
Definition A: In general Islamic terms, a Muslim is someone who submits to the will of God.
Definition B: In places in Quran, the term “Muslim” is used to specify one who specifically believes in the message of Quran.
God raised prophets among all nations throughout the history of mankind. It is reasonable to assume that Buddha, Ram, Krishna, Zaratushtra, Christ, Mohammad, were such prophets. They conveyed the message of Unity of God … and emphasized love and compassion towards all of God’s creations. Definition “A” of a Muslim would thus apply to them and their followers, regardless of the era they lived in.
In places, Quran uses the term “Muslim” for those who subscribe to the Quranic message. Now, before one wants to know if a person is a “Definition B” Muslim or not … it is important to find out the context and nature of this inquiry.
For example … the government may want to find out how many people subscribe to which faith … in order to better allocate its resources. Labeling one’s faith may also become important in matters involving burial of the deceased, inheritance laws, etc. A simple questionnaire in this case would suffice … where a person simply specifies his faith. This is consistent with the example from the life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) … who once asked that a survey of this nature be taken in Medina. I am sketchy on details … but from I recall reading … the criterion set by the dear Prophet (pbuh) was that … if a person claims to be a Muslim … count him as a Muslim.
While Allah Himself uses the term Muslim in Quran, He does not impart authority of declaring others as non-Muslim to anyone. In their frenzy of fanaticism, mullahs have assumed divine rights to play god and to interfere in matters that rest between an individual and Allah. As a result, the term “Muslim” has become more of a political label, with connotations of an intolerant ideology and a narrow social outlook. Reversing this trend rests in the hands of Muslims themselves, who must come forward and rid Islam of the divisive, sectarian elements that have come to plague its followers and its image all across the world.
#14 Posted by Pardaisi on March 1, 2004 10:46:43 am
#7 by Urstruly
Where and when, 14 days advance notice should be enough for me...
Where and when, 14 days advance notice should be enough for me...
#15 Posted by malik99 on March 1, 2004 11:15:35 am
Urstruly # 7 - You wrote - ``As if genocide of East Paksitanis by power hungary blood thirsty military despots of Na Pak fauj was not enough for their resume and now this.... When are these despots going to stop murdering Paksitani citizens. Enough is enough``
I could not agree with you more. This bitch of West, otherwise known as General Whore, who goes by the name Musharraf, has let lose his dogs on Pakistani civilians. He has let foreign security agencies run free in our lands, harassing our people, murdering innocent civilians, tarnishing our heros and our army. We do not feel secure in our homes anymore. We are no longer free. Our sons are handed over to foreign agencies for questioning with nary a debate allowed.
Debate on who is NOT a muslim is a leisurely debate. The biggest and most urgetnt question that faces our ummah is, how to stop dictators like General Whore who ARE muslims. While no apologist for qadianis`, I can say with full conviction that General Whore has caused more damage to Islam and Pakistan than qadianis` could ever dream of.
I could not agree with you more. This bitch of West, otherwise known as General Whore, who goes by the name Musharraf, has let lose his dogs on Pakistani civilians. He has let foreign security agencies run free in our lands, harassing our people, murdering innocent civilians, tarnishing our heros and our army. We do not feel secure in our homes anymore. We are no longer free. Our sons are handed over to foreign agencies for questioning with nary a debate allowed.
Debate on who is NOT a muslim is a leisurely debate. The biggest and most urgetnt question that faces our ummah is, how to stop dictators like General Whore who ARE muslims. While no apologist for qadianis`, I can say with full conviction that General Whore has caused more damage to Islam and Pakistan than qadianis` could ever dream of.
#16 Posted by Urstruly on March 1, 2004 11:24:34 am
Romair
I agree with you partly. It is true that various sects have (and still do) declared each other non-Muslims and certain sects which were declared heretics by the politically more powerful sects were persecuted and even killed.
But now times have changed. In the past, the nature of governments was such that either Caliphate or King had the absolute authority. His decree was the law. Some of them because of political expediency coerced the sentiments of majority (or politically powerful) segment of the society. But now times have changed. Kings and Caliphs are now being replaced by Social Contracts and Constitutions. And it is the nature of social contracts that they cannot allow a room for vagueness. In a democratic polity which submits the ultimate sovereignity to Allah, different segments of the society can only be defined by their faith (or lack thereof). It is not an impossible task. A lot of work has been done in this regard and political and ideological framework has been laid down in the past one century. This is a never-ending and evolving process as is any political process. The forces (self-propelled) that are causing this change are bringing the old issues that have plagued Muslims for centuries, to the fore. One such force is the globalization of the faith. Because of information technology and due to the shrinking world different sects or schools of thought are being exposed to each other more than ever before. The opportunities for an interfaith and an inter-sect dialogue are becoming even more possible. This is weakening the grip of traditional mullah leadership on the matters of faith. The proof of this change is self evident. In case you happen to be in a mosque in Toronto you might have seen people standing in a row praying all differently. In their own countries, in their own closed societies these people cut each others throats just for praying ``the wrong way``. What happens to these people when they come in an open society? This is a self-evident proof that a common man wants to stick to the very basics of the religion and he doesn`t care much about the doctrinal differences. That is the reason that the Wahabism has spread exponantially around the globe just because they address the very basics of the religion.
Now there are two levels to this discussion. At first level we have discussed how an evolution is rapidly taking place in the minds of Muslims throughout the globe and at the second level one may ask how this evolution is compelling Muslims to re-examine their faith and re-evaluate themselves. As an individual when a Muslim sets foot on this path of self discovery the first lesson that he learns is that in this chaos there is after all a right way:
O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. 4-59
Ultimately, every seeker, sooner or later comes to this conclusion.
When we examine our ways through this criteria we find that some of the disputes among us are only doctrinal while some of them are actually because of the matter of faith. The doctrinal issues are those in which two people do agree with a directive but dispute on how to implement it - these disputes caused five basic sects to emerge namely hanafi, shafai, maliki, hanbali and jaafri.
And when we come to faith based disputes then we should turn to 4:59. An example is that of Twelver Shias which are called Ithna-e-Ashari Shias. They beleive in twelve imams and ascribe to them the same status as that of a prophet and beleive that these Imams have the authority to even change Quran or suspend some or all of its directives. Well, they might be right but they have to prove this through Qura`n and his prophet as 4:59 directs us. They can`t and claim that in ``original version`` of Quran there was such a directive and a goat ate that part of Qura`n. Even that contradicts 4:59 because Allah himself has taken responsibility to protect Qura`n from corruption till the End of Days and we see the living proof of that promise even now after 1500 years.
The second example is that of Quadianis. They have taken one word of Qura`n; mis-translated it and violated the Arabic usage of that word and beleive in the (false)prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Quadiani. This is the height of ignorance and an arrogant stubborness that they would not want to pick up an Arabic Dictionary and find the truth themselves. They not only vilate 4:59 but also a direct edict of Qura`n. There cannot be two (learned) opinions about them being non-Muslims.
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