A New Identity

dude get ur facts right...we were born Muslims and when ur a mulsim ur supposed to follow the Quran and The Holy Prophet (S.A.W)...i wont kill ma uncle if ma religeous leader asks me to coz there aint no concept of even a MOLVI, let alone a leader, in islam. No one is supposed to follow ne leader no nothng. as far as shiite are conerns. they shud die why coz these shiite who think they r syeds are infact the people from the kufa in urdu calkled ``Ehl-Kufa`` . They are the ones who called upon for help and later betrayed Hazrat Imam Hussains and their family. And why these shiite ppl bang their heads at muharram coz thats a curse onto them and all their generations to come. yesterday my sweeper whose a christian told me he was payed 800 rupees to do that knife thingie at moharram :D these shiite are hilariously insecur......SUCKERZ!!!

``falsafa parh ke bhee jiss ka yeh haal ho, uska kya kaheeyey.... ``-#1 by skept on March 6, 2004 7:13am PT

Well reading philosophy does not NECESSARILY make you rational. Education does not necessarily give you a heart for love or a mind for reason. That has to come from a deep desire from within. For e.g. some Greek philosophers thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe. This ``falsafa`` was copied by Christians and Muslims. Learning things by rote and regurgitating them does not make you a better person.

#3 by catfischblues on March 6, 2004 12:30pm PT

I see you have joined the Secular Pakistan Movement. Cool! Hope to see you at our next soiree :)

#5 by fantastico on March 6, 2004 3:55pm PT

Pray what scintillating, ``sophisticated`` piece you have written lately? and is brown-nosing to Islam considered ``knowledge`` of Islam ?

#6 by Indian on March 6, 2004 3:55pm PT

My parents seem to think we are descended from Mohammad. If anyone saw my mother they would think that she was descended from the British not some of the Arabs I have had the displeasure of running into. Ofcourse trying to tell my mother of her British background or my father of his Hindu background does not go over very well.


#9 by teshah on March 6, 2004 9:48pm PT

You are right religion ought not to be the business of the state.

``And, where do we find the ones with better understanding of Islam who have created a country full of peace, harmony, knowledge, learning and a progressive approach towards life. Where the hell does that exist ? Any ata pata of that country would certainly be appreciated. ``#10 by ZahraJ on March 6, 2004 9:48pm PT

That made me laugh even though it sounded like you are upset.

#11 by jay on March 6, 2004 9:48pm PT

The Two Nation Theory was foisted out of fear of Hindus. But since Pakistanis are not afraid of ``those cowardly hindus`` I have a feeling it had something to do with hatred of Hindus.

#12 by jay on March 6, 2004 9:48pm PT

Every society that feels inferior in some way to others, or feels threatened by the imagined superiority of others will prevent its members from marrying outside the community. It explains the ``superiority complex`` that Muslims suffer from and their supremacist actions.

#13 by echoboom on March 6, 2004 9:48pm PT

Look at the Islamic creed `` There is no God but Allah`` and see how intolerant it is inherently with freedom of religion. This intolerance is further reinforced by the role of the Zimmi and how the Quran instructs Muslims to grab non muslims by the collar and humiliate them and force them to pay jizya. Persecution of minorities is inherent in some interpretations of Islam (obviously not YOUR interpretation dear reader). Iqbal it seems had a problem with materialism and idolatory probably because he himself was so affected by the pull of vices like alcohol and prostitution. However it seems to me that Pakistani Muslims like to quote Iqbal more than they like to quote the Quran (probably because half of them know what the Quran is saying while the other half is busy figuring out what Iqbal is saying)

#15 by ballukhan on March 6, 2004 11:09pm PT

We would leave the Mullahs to interpreting the Quran and Islam (something they have been doing ever since Mohammad died) but the Mullahs prefer to kill the rest of us and incite others to do the same. Progressive societies do not try to ``re interpret`` or rediscover old truths. They create new truths. YOu can spend your life trying to convince people ``No! this is what Mohammad said`` or you can tell people ``This is what we think will be good for all of us!``


``it doesnt hurt being a muslim first`` - #16 by ahsanshamim on March 7, 2004 7:38am PT

Have you spoken with the Shias lately? Or how about the Sunni victims of the Shiite retaliation? How about the Bahais? Or the Ahmedis ? This is just recentl examples of persecution of Muslims. Traditionally everyone from Sufis (Hallaj was crucified) to poets and scientists have been hurt by Muslims. If you think it doesn`t hurt YOU if you are a Muslim then you should try moving to Sudan where they are enslaving Christians or perhaps move to NWFP where your mother and daughter will be burned alive if they try to vote or Kashmir where you will be shot in the legs for wearing jeans. My dear it might not hurt you right now but the Islamists will eventually come around to you. First it was the hindus, then the bohris, then the ahmedis, then the shias and the ``mohajirs``. It will not end.

#17 by ijaz_gul on March 7, 2004 7:38am PT

Rely not on the government for reform. Start reform from your family and change yourself.

#18 by Indian on March 7, 2004 10:08am PT

Forget about non Muslims heading into India worry about the Muslims (who are already infiltrating Kashmir). Pretty soon the ``moderate`` Muslims will be heading into India if Indian economy keeps improving the way it is. It will be like Mexico and America or Pakistan and America. Pakistanis might hate America but they love American dollars which they can give to some Islamic ``charity`` or use it to create little Islams within ``decadent, sinful, non mUslim`` countries (be it America, India, Israel or England). If Muslims can migrate in hordes to England (once considered the mother of all evils) and take over entire cities and prohibit music and evolution in their classes, what is India? Besides India cannot even handle its own Muslim population.

#19 by Saminasha on March 7, 2004 4:43pm PT

I heard an interview by Ms. Rubin on C SPAN. Will go read it though I don`t really like her or admire her. 2 weeks in Saudi does not make you an expert on anything except wearing gaudy cloths and putting Kajal in your eyes.

``Could Iqbal ever think of the current day and age massacres Muslims are inflicting upon themselves`` #21 by ZahraJ on March 7, 2004 6:27pm PT

Sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shias and within Sunnis and within Shias has been going on since the inception of Islam. You must have read about the assasination of the Sahaba? How about Abu Bakr massacring entire tribes? How about Yazid and Hussain ? It did not end there. It has been a continuous bloodbath since then except that it never makes it into the ``Islamic press``. This sectarian violence started when Pakistan was formed which forced Jinnah to ask Congress to disregard religion as a foundation for Pakistan. Soon after Jinnah died in the middle of a desert in a desperate attempt to get to a hospital. Soon after Liaqat Ali Khan was assasinated and in 1956 they changed the name to Islamic Pakistan officially under a military dictator (Ayub)

Zahra,

Actually, one can read a visual component in the same manner that one ``reads`` any text. My suggestion?

1. Read between the lines of any post Echoboom submits to Chowk
2. Look at the lower right hand of that text.

Btw, were you able to read the article posted on my ilog? Would like to read your reactions.

ZahraJ:Please click here
koshish-e natamaam

ZahraJ:Please click here
koshish-e natamaam

Echoboom:

Point Noted.

Thanks.

Zahra: For whatever reason this did not get through. I hope you can read it now. ENJOY!

21:ZahraJ

I agree with you a 100%.
No one should feel responsible or guilty if someone misreads , misinterprets, or twists any speech or writing. Unfortunately the art has become a science and now we even have ``spin doctors`` among the most advanced and most civilised ones. 1984 was not a prominition but the ``idiots-guide-to-doublespeak`` a kind of manual to corrupt the language.

Rest assured those professing humanity the most would always be its most blatant violators--or so the past teaches us . They are raised among all kinds and in all shades.

We have been very clearly advised that we will be held accountable a 100% INDIVIDUALLY. Not as family, community, or citizen but INDIVIDUALLY , hence we are not responsible for anyones deeds (not thoughts, mind you but DEEDS). We have been advised to do affirm the positive and resist the negative to our best abilities ..the hukm-e azaaN.
The beauty of metaphors and idioms in poetry is immense & makes it so universal &
eternal.

The ``context`` in historical terms of the verse you mention is about the small-idols the neo-converts used to bring to the mosques because of their superstitions and adherence to old-ways.

Keeping in mind your personality ,that I have gleaned from your posts I am sure you will understand and appreciate the following poem tremendously. If I read you correctly you really have an `Iqbaalian` personality..(that is the best compliment a Pakistani muslim can be given)



P.S: our ``desis`` are really fantastic--you just have to look and uncover with being a bit less strident and intimidating. [pl. do not respond to this P.S]

PPS: If you need a little elaboration of the idea & meaning of the above poem I`ll be glad to offer.

Echoboom:

This was one of my childhood favorites. And, I used to listen to Shaukat Ali very diligently when Iqbal was recited in anyway or shape. Iqbal`s poetry has many aspects very well weaved in it, but many of them can be read and interpreted in different contexts based on the time and the need. The last verse is indeed a very poignant and powerful verse, but that can be easily misused by the current day fanatics. They can take one aspect of that view and roll it out without further thought.

To take an example: Could Iqbal ever think of the current day and age massacres Muslims are inflicting upon themselves by killing each other on the basis of sects? Is the killing of so many shias all over the world at the time of muharram(which is sacred to them at a different level) considered equivalent to abiding by the principles of ``Hukmae` Azaan`` ? Now, this is not the evil west jumping in the middle to create the rift. This is the evil spirit amongst the muslims that is ripping them apart.

For what ?

This is not even for the love of God or for that matter ``Us`watun Hasaanaa``` This is some kind of plague in the society that is distorting prose, poetry, religious scripture and everything else to finish any iota of peace and harmony from the very basis of Islam. And, ironically, it`s not an outsider trying to further spread the plague. It`s the Muslims themselves.


Samina:
Probably, you need reading glasses. The color blue can be deceptive for some.

Thanks.

Uh...did anyone notice the skulls in the backdrop of the text Echoboom posted?

great article on Saudi dissidents to Wahabism on my ilog.

#10 Pakfin,

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=56730&PHPSESSID=ace97a1936b2fcf77fb40b5eab844182

Actually India should do this for all non muslim pakistanis instead of Hindus only ....

As far as one knows what Islam means and how much core focus Islam has has on `human beings`, it doesnt hurt being a muslim first.

Here is a reproduction of my previous interact. Thats how I feel.

#13 Pakistan under its Ethnic Shadows on November 20, 2003
Well I feel that the geographical entity as a STATE (Pakistan) came easier said than done. It is the psychological approximate of nation, nationhood or nationism, whatever you may call it that is still evolving.

Pakistan has to be seen as an amalgam of various ethnic groups whose roots seldom overlap. The Punjab is largely Matriarchal society, that taking a que from Nazar Khan`s article has produced more romantic heroes than leaders and rulers. Though it has the largest majority, it is also the most flexible and compliant. NWFP is a largely patriarchal society with a very strong sense of tribal identity, though it has always remained at the cross roads of invasions. The sense of being Pathan is very strong and outlives petty tribal differences specially when they have to live outside the frontier. Both Baloch and Sindies (majority are of Baloch descent) are fiercely independent and have their common hero in Mir Chakkar Khan Rind. However they remain in the clutches of the worst type of tyranny in the Sardari system. In some remote areas like NokChah in Balochistan, most people have not seen Pakistan beyond the nearest water hole. On all peripheries, the hold of the tribal and feudal chiefs is final. Somehow I feel that Pakistan`s Mahattir will come from Sindh or Balochistan. I also feel that the word Muhajir is an insult to the concept of Pakistaniat.

However, there is a brighter aspect. All major towns and cities are distinctively Pakistani and there is a very strong sense of the Pakistaniat. This is particularly true of our cricket that has played the most significant role in inculcating nationalism. I have seen kids as far away as Taftan, Amri and Suntser playing cricket and trying to become Imran Khans and Miandads.

Political elites and the Government of Pakistan have thus far failed to transfer the seeds of modernity and modernisation in such areas in particular and rest of the country in general. I wonder, if the state has the capacity to reform the society. It is therefore time for the private sectors to step in for the socio economic development leading to societal fusion. Human resource development at grass roots will usher a new era of complementary cooperation while overriding irritants.

Herein lies the future of our generations.

#13 by echoboom -The song for all seasons


A face for all seasons- echoboom in person!!!!

I think everything is alright- even the mullahs and their stink- what is unacceptable is the killing, the wars, the blood, the violence - all in the name of Islam.
The problem is that we never came up with a `plethora` of interpretations of the Islamic history (which can be counted on the finger tips) like we have in the numerous churches of present day Christianity. Fortunately, the current christian West has indeed thrown the baggage of violent show of allegiance to the God which form a part of the jehadist discourse.
It is time we threw up the baggage of the ``literal`` interpretation of our history which encourages the jehadists interpretation what it means to be a ``true`` muslim. We need a humanistic interpretation of our religion which puts ``humans beings`` in the focus and relegates other things to the background.