Ashura: Atonement, Mourning and Return

Bhiatai #51 Islam, sir, is about man`s relation to God. Sectarianism (sunni or shia or any other) is about man`s relation to man (i.e. who gets to be king). The former is a religion, the latter (shia OR sunni) is superstition and politics.

As for your kind offer for me to study shia sources, I am afraid I would rather spend my time doing anything other than reading your sectarian nonsense (shia OR sunni or any other kind). As I said, you people (shias and sunnis) can enjoy bashing each other`s heads in this life. In the next life, you will no doubt both be together again - in line to be whipped by Old Man Satan. Meanwhile, the rest of the world will be partying in heaven.

PS: I keep repeating ``shia or sunni`` since you seem to be unable to think outside this sectarian box. True muslims dont distinguish between people on the basis of sects. OR on the basis of religion either. They respect ALL humans.

Finally, you say ``As for your quoting the Quran denouncing sectarianism: I`m 100% with you..``

I wish you were, my friend. But the rest of your post indicates that you are not. This is the root problem of the muslim world - it pays lip service to the Quran, then turns around and does what it bloody well wants. Forgive me if my words above sound offensive, but that is the truth. And when 200 people are killed (as happened a couple of days ago in Iraq and Quetta), then sectarianism is no longer just a harmless bit of nonsense.

bhitai

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i agree with the first two paragraphs of your post number 51...

Too confusing!
A quick primer anybody? Whats a Shia & whats a Sunni? And why are they at each other throats? And what did this Hussain dude do?
Replies would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Scott

kyla,
this is well written.. you manage to talk about different things all at once and not confuse them also... ref: fasting on ashura, if im not mistaken, is haram for shias to do because yazids mom kept roza or kept mannat to fast should her son suceed in killing imam hussain.. we keep faqaah, not roza..

zanjeer is a much debated and unagreed upon subject even within the shia community... haath ka matam is widely accepted and practised amongst shias all over the world.. i am uncomfortable with the thought of zanjeer ka matam because i feel such intense physical harm should just be avoided... the queasiness factor here, no principles or intelligent argument.. there are people in the shia community who donate a pint of blood to the major blood banks of the city on ashura (they have camps at major jaloos areas) that is then passed onto people needing blood and not being able to afford the same.. in my family, the boys start doing the zanjeer since ages 7 onwards... that is their way of expressing and really, who is anyone to diss that? is that your back being bladed?
the idea is to give of yourself, in grief, rememberance and love.. i understand that it is difficult for people to understand if theyve not experienced this since the begining.. zanjeer and the overall high passion in moharam can be overwhelming for ordinary folks.. still, i think the intolerance on this board is sad and disrespectful..

Kyla, you have a very nice name. As for your article, who the flukk cares.

What kind of barbaric ritual is that- self-flagellation and mutilating oneself in the name of not even God but some mythical hero or the other? We hindoos are at least not that stupid, we conveniently throw out those rituals which are uncomfortable to us...

As far as I know from my chowk visits, shias are looked upon as some kind of cursed minority in Pakistan. So forgive my scepticism at this tearjerker from some ABCD (does the term apply to Pakistanis too) suddenly discovers her long-lost faith in an alien land....

Kyla # 25

Your amendment is well taken. Thanks.

#tahmed32

Sir
You shouldn`t be jumping to questions without having read anything yet.. esp. any Shii SOURCES. And who gave you the news that muharram is about sectarianism? Until 20,30 years ago as I mentioned earlier, our sunna brothers would actively participate in the commemoration. The naqshbandis, chishtis, qadris and other sufi orders still join us wholeheartedly in our majalis..

In fact it won`t take much effort on your part to determine that the ESOTERIC tradition of islam is brimming with love for Hussain and his father. The majority of today`s Sunnis are the inheritors of this tradition(though much of it has rusted away, thanks to the Petro-dollars of the Sauds)..Now I hope you won`t come back to ask me what esoteric means?( I`m really hoping you`re familiar with the works of Ibn-Arabi or AbdulQadir Jilani..)

As for your quoting the Quran denouncing sectarianism: I`m 100% with you.. With regards to muharram, I never thought that concepts like sacrifice, love, devotion, patience, prayer, steadfastness, and standing up for what is right, had anything to do with sectarianism. These are the subjects of Ikhlaq and `Irfan, not necessarily Sharia, hence not bound by your `fatwas`!.


If you seriously want to study something (just a critical study perhaps) Tabatabai`s introduction to shiism is the most popular among the western audiance. May be you can skim through it and manage to come up with more objective questions. If you want some SSP drivel you`re more than welcome to visit Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists` website!

#50
rajanjua sahib
Apparently you don`t think it`s worthwhile to check out shii sources - instead relying on the usual `programming` offered in schools and in homes with regards to `those infidel shias`.

The shias have a certain spiritual dimension to their creed - something beyond a simple family feud. To dispute their version of history (and they have a parallel version of history/tradition indeed), you and Tahmed sahib both need to educate yourself and then make objective comments. Simply quoting one side won`t do, sorry!

I hope this expectation from you isn`t unreasonable...

re: 41
``Shiism is far more complex than your one-liners. Pls. feel free to ask what to study to even qualify for making a reasonable argument against us, and we`ll be happy to help you out!!``

actually its beginnings are quite simple - nothing but a power struggle (as tahmed puts it) between banu hashim and banu umayah - its later evolution into a separate sect is probably complex.

#43
kyla
you sound kinda disappointed..me 2! this is how our `elder brothers` receive our grief: denial, suspicion, disapproval, may be patronization, but seldom with genuine sincerity!

the proof is in a number of postings today..instead of expressing sympathy for the double tragedies we had to bear on Ashura, our brothers started passing negative judgements..atleast they could`ve respected the solemnity of the occassion.

#45
there`s a stage play in a Beghdad theatre that portrays the story of Karbala - sort of a poor-man`s `the passion`..In lebanon/iran they`ve made a number of low budget docu-dramas/plays on this subject. I`ve watched `safeer-hussaini` and I found it of reasonable quality..
Anyway..you shouldn`t be afraid of our jihadi types hounding you...our people didn`t hurt a soul in the aftermath of the bombing..they could have - believe me! and the americans won`t raise a finger to protect the sunnis (it`s in their interest that we fight)..

Assuming that ppl will not differ on religous interpretation is quite unrealistic of Quran-author(s) and you.

maulana naqshbandi and mullah urstruly have spoken

``Shi`ism was a cult started by Abdullah ibn Saba` - a Jew--to weaken the Muslims internally``.............. i knew it!.... i knew it all along !............ it is those cursed jews - first they crucified mary`s mystery son and then knocked off muhammad`s grandson !.................. and now the americans (and zionists) are blowing up shias left and right to ............. to do what?.........doesn`t matter ............ the poor sunnis are just innocent bystanders who couldn`t even save their leader who hid in a spider hole - legend has it that a spider had spun its web across the entrance but the jews betrayed him ......... and what of the shaheed uday, qusay and the fourteen year old mustafa who might have peed in his pants but died fighting ........... who betrayed them - the shias, of course!............ and the qadianis were behind the murder of ali - never mind that mirza ghulam ahmed hadn`t descended from heaven yet .............. and did you hear the latest? ...... the mossad and cia are doctoring infant formula so that the children of the ummah will grow up impotent .............

Bhitai #41 Please educate me then: Is the shia understanding of the Quran any different from the sunnis? (the fact of course is, that neither shias nor sunnis nor the vast bulk of muslims have ANY understanding of the Quran. Or any concern about the violations of the Quran: thus, the Quran specifically and strongly calls against sectarianism. Yet this Quranic injunction falls on deaf ears.

So much for the muslim world. A cauldron of hypocrisy and satanic cults. Nothing to do with the Quran. As all those who indulge in sectarianism will learn in due course on the Day of Judgement. Till then, all you sectarians (sunnis or shias) can enjoy bashing each other`s heads.

Yar, kya baat shuru ki thi aur kahan pohanch gaye. I`m sorry.

each year we make it clear who is an oppresor n who was oppresed n stood against oppression,n hussain knew the fact that he was going to be killed, if u believe in rightousness n standing for u belief than karbala is the best place to learn some lesson each year !!!!
why do all muslims each year celebrate EID QURBAN !
Ibrahim took ismail n even ismail wasnt killed but we celebrate to commerate the feelings of Qurbani, but if we celebrate AHOORA where Hussain took his 6 months old, to get some water but instead the 6 month old thristy child was killed ,so why should`nt we commerate each year the death of nearones of Prophet. we mourn the death of Prophet`s Family, not some regular guys !

I would tend to agree with jang #34. There is no need to celebrate brutality of the past.
We Muslims should be more positive in our attitude and celebrate the harmony of nature.
But now I suppose some jihadi type will come out of the wood works spewing fire and brimstone.

On another note, has anyone seen Passion of the Christ. I went to see it with my friend who is Christian and she did not care for it much. Too much blood and gore. The whole movie was about the beating up of Christ. Except for a dfew flashbacks there was just beating and torture. Also, I wonder if anyone could have survived the type of beating they depicted. It was so unreal that it became unreallistic. Also, when they whipped JC with the whip with hooks, it should have taken off more flesh, I think. But not that much flesh was removed, as it was shown.

Maybe, now the Sistani guy should ask his people to make a movie about the killing of Hussain and Ali. By the way, who was killed first? Ali or Hussain?