The Case for Sonia Gandhi!

Romair, fuzair #14

fuzair says ``Indian Muslims have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education``

I donot wholly agree. As with every Indian community with a constitutional right to education, Indian Muslim communities are entitled to every effort to help overcome their specific circumstances instead of a ``sink or swim on your own`` type of politicisation of basic education. For example, in some regions, offering more mother-tongue (Urdu script) options might encourage better primary school enrollment. Or, funds could be offered as incentive for `modernization` of madrassa syllabus, as is already being done in some places. Such efforts are not being made with the vigor required for respectable literacy rates.

Looking at the literacy rate figures for Pakistan and Indian Muslims is interesting, however and shows Indian Muslims must set their own standards.

When overall Indian literacy was 52 %(1991 census), Indian Muslim literacy was cited as 47%, 5 percent less than overall. In the 2001 census, overall Indian literacy was measured as 65%, so overall Indian Muslim literacy rate, even if assumed to be an arbitrary 10 percent less than the overall Indian rate, would be 55%.

Even that figure is HIGHER than the best figure I could find for literacy rates in Pakistan, 51%(government-quoted in June 2003).

Whatever this says about a sovereign nation Pakistan that its 97% majority Muslims are unable to educate themselves better than 15% minority Indian Muslims, clearly, it is more accurate to say ``Pakistanis have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education``.

AlephNull

“There’s no hope of a revitalized Congress as long as she leads it.”

I am kind of confused by your- if I may call it -a ‘verdict’.

In your post you are just not supporting any thing that helped you reach this conclusion.
Is it because she is not Indra Gandhi like or she has no Indra like Charisma?

From what I read in Indian papers it seems she is much more rounded leader than may be Advani who is just a heartbeat away from running India. Six or seven years out of the power do not prove that the party needs revitalization. The party just may need to take it message to people again. It has not been shown yet that Sonia lost the power to BJP. There were ‘others’ that lost the elections. She is trying to take the power back and it is not an easy task in any country.

You agree that BJP rule has not been w/o communal polarization still, you cleverly take a shot at her community or religious affiliations and blame her for hostility to “at least one community that previously faced almost nothing”.
There is nothing to prove that the hostility against that particular community was because Sonia belonged to it.
Now I would think that it is a convoluted argument and probably portrays your own subliminal prejudice then Sonia’s religious affiliation.

However, your following assertion really w/o merit, as there does not appear to be any reasonable argument behind it.
“Meanwhile, a Congress saddled with Sonia cannot make a politically effective case against religious identity politics and is sorely tempted to go in for a me-tooing soft-Hindutva, as they did (to no avail) in Gujarat.”

Making a politically effective case is a relative term. You may think that congress NOW cannot make an effective case against but would you rule out that congress could make an effective case against it with or without Sonia in future also. So far what I have been reading up clearly demonstrates that congress and Sonia are making an effective case against it, as BJP, which in the past never canvassed for votes from ‘other’ community or communities is aggressively approaching the same community or communities that BJP previously antagonized or berated for India’s problems.

You see congress or Sonia’s making case against the Religious identity politics has nothing to do with winning or losing the elections. Elections can be won or lost on several issues rather then just one, but Sonia and Congress’s effective push in defending/promoting secularism is effectively pushing the party that championed the religious identity politics to hook up with the same community that BJP effectively shunned in the past. So, Sonia and Congress are making an effective case contrary to your thoughts.

What you are calling “religious identity politics” is at the present time is just a representative of the Indian Nationalism.

What it was ten years ago or what it was when BJP first rode to power on religious identity has changed as new elements have joined the politics that clearly are not interested in “religious identity politics” but are interested in Indian Nationalism and the revival of it on more or less secular patterns as it was before the BJP launched religious assault on a non ideological leadership of congress in the 90s.

It appears to me that India is headed back to its more secular roots. As opposed to what was feared up until a few years ago. Clearly, Indians are by and large rejecting the politics of religious isolationism and attempting to be more mainstream as Indian economic interest are become more intertwined with International market forces.

I think the current failures of the religious fundamentalism in the nearby area have also shown to Indians that the path of religious fundamentalism is not the one for India.

Now the question is whether Congress will be able to tap into its natural constituency or not, would depend on several factors and most would depend on public perception that “if it aint broke, don’t fix it”. Congress has to show that it can provide a better leadership to India then the BJP/NDA alliance and that in my opinion would determine the election results in India.

Dost-mittar jee,

I thing you have confused issues quite badly in your article. Sonia Gandhi is emphatically not the cure for the ills you have identified.

You are quite right to be concerned about communal polarization, where the BJP’s track record has been the most questionable. However, a moment’s thought should convince you that Sonia Gandhi because of her lack of Indian roots can do nothing to improve this situation. For one thing, her ascendance in the Congress Party has arguably been partly instrumental in engendering hostility, still admittedly on a very small scale, for at least one community that previously faced almost nothing along those lines. Meanwhile, a Congress saddled with Sonia cannot make a politically effective case against religious identity politics and is sorely tempted to go in for a me-tooing soft-Hindutva, as they did (to no avail) in Gujarat.

Sonia Gandhi seems to embody the worst aspect of her mother-in law’s political behaviour, namely the absolute refusal to countenance any other strong leaders in the Congress or outside it, while completely lacking Indira’s political instincts, which for a while enabled her to defeat adversaries from Morarji to Nixon. There’s no hope of a revitalized Congress as long as she leads it.

romair
//...Why did West Pakistani Muslims end up being the most upwardly socially mobile group in South Asia, from 47 to 90 .... While the Indian Muslims ended up being one of the least socially mobile groups? ...//

Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India. Because those people were well-educated and already part of elite/middle class.

The muslims that remained India not only lost the cream of their community to partition, but also the whole episode left them severely disadvantaged - psychologically and politically. It manifested in various negative ways - lack of competent leadership from the ranks, some sort of isolationist mentality and undue insecurity about their place in the nation, susceptible to vote-bank politics etc... And then combine this with pseudo-secular mainstream politicians who cynically exploited their predicament.

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``#2 by gujjubania on March 8, 2004 6:40am PT
``So, if I had a vote, it would go to Sonia! ``

Thank God you don`t. Stay where you are old man. Stop meddling in the affairs of MY country. Goodbye. ``

Dost-mitter.

You are neither a dost or a mitter ... yaar !!.

I openly second Gujjubania.

Cant resist. Once a friend shared a joke with me. He told me adoption is height of laziness. I know it was just a joke. Adoption is AOK. Stop meddling in my country. Be truthful to your adopted.

Yogiraj Patil

Hmm...

If the Central Govt has to take responsibility for Modi.

Then Pasta Primavera (thanks..Arjun) also gave tickets to many of the rioters !
Vaghela a former BJP activist was made the leader of the Gujarat Congress.

Pasta Primavera lied to the whole country on national-tv that she had a parliamentary
majority when she was not even close.

Paste Primavera has just allowed the congress folks in J&K to pass a bill thatis
discriminatory against women who marry outside of J&K

Pasta Primavera has not addressed a single open press conference.

Paste Primavera has a closed coterie of advisors and has failed to develop
a cadre of party leaders.

But Pasta Primavera can become Pradhanmantri.

`` averaged a 6%+ rate of economic growth. During the same time, India averaged an economic growth of 3.25%.``

Can someone point me to a site that has historcal growth rates (from 50`s) for India-Pakistan?

fuzair #14: ``While there certainly is some bias/discrimination against Muslims in India, it is NOT the main reason why they are so far behind the rest of Indian society as a whole.``

This maybe true. I do not have access to the information explaining why the Indian Muslims are so far behind, in India. I only have access to the results and statistics (from Indian sources) pointing to the fact, that they are way behind. If the problem lies in the Indian Muslims themselves, then it is an even bigger problem to solve for India. At the same time, the actions and policies of the BJP are certainly not going to help the cause. They will furthur alienate the already alienated Muslims.

At the same time, I have tough time believing that the Indian Muslims, themselves, are to be blamed completely. This is exactly what West Pakistanis used to (and still) say about Bengalis, i.e. Bengalis don`t work, they can`t fight, they look wierd etc. One could actually put some statistics behind this to justify it. Bangladesh, even after its freedom, is still extremely poor. Perphaps as poor as it had been with Pakistan. Many Pakistanis (including me) think it is good for both countries that it separated (I actually think it should have been a separate country from 47).

But, the above comments need to take into account the generational development of the areas. Have the Bengalis recovered from a genaration of discrimination? Maybe that is why they are still poor(er). Maybe their next generation of Bengladeshis will be better of than us West Pakistanis. Similarly, why is it that only Indian Muslims are caught in, ``more ridiculous way?`` Why not Pakistanis Muslims? After all they are literally our first cousins (even brothers and sisters in some cases). Why did West Pakistani Muslims end up being the most upwardly socially mobile group in South Asia, from 47 to 90 (this is a fact, even though us Pakistanis have a habit of cynically putting ourselves down all the time)? While the Indian Muslims ended up being one of the least socially mobile groups?

Could it all have been their ridiculous ways? After all, we share many of those ridiculous ways. Would you and I have had the same chance of sitting in the USA, well-off, had we been Indian Muslims? And would we have been scared of the BJP targeting us?

re: fuzair # 14

I agree with your response.

Ciao

Romair:

One major problem with your analysis/comparison of Bengalis and Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education, discarding some of their more ridiculous ways (e.g., insisting on Muslim family law--the Sara Bano case), not integrating better with the rest of society and, finally, having umpteen children per family.

While there certainly is some bias/discrimination against Muslims in India, it is NOT the main reason why they are so far behind the rest of Indian society as a whole.

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Ref sunlight #5

[The major problem with the Congress is the current uncertainty regarding what it stands for. Sonia Gandhi has taken some intelligent decisions, such as sacrificing the Chief Ministership of Kashmir in the national interest. On the negative side, she has been less successful than BJP and Vajpayee in building coalitions.]

The Congress had NO chance of getting elected in Kashmir. It was always the preserve of Sheikh Abdullah`s National Conference. So there was no sacrifice by Sonia in Kashmir.

On the other hand, she sacrificed Pondicherry where the Congress is in power. Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion allocated this Congress stronghold to PMK and Sonia couldn`t/wouldn`t do squat about it. To this day, the Pondicherry Congresswallahs are thinking of running their own candidate there and several have resigned from the Congress over this issue.

Sonia will mortgage everything including the honor of Congress for electoral alliances. The question in everyone`s mind is what else will be mortgaged and to whom if she gets into power.

Ref 12-Head #1

[Are these hindu Indians friend of muslims . No!

Why muslims of India and muslims of muslim countries need hindu Indians?

Why indeed the whole world needs hindu Indian professionals?]

If Hindu Indians aren`t the friend of Muslims, you should ask yourself whether for 1000 years Muslims were friends of Hindus.

While your people forcibly converted Hindus, destroyed our temples, killed, raped and pillaged at will, was that a sign of friendship?

If so, then by the same token, the demolition of Babri Masjid is a token of friendship from Hindus to Muslims.

The question is NOT if Muslims of India need Hindu Indians.

The real question is do Hindu Indians need Muslims.

Search your heart for the answer.

PS. Here is a clue. We did pretty well without you guys before Mohammad bin Qasim bin Camel showed up in Sindh.

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