The Case for Sonia Gandhi!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re : Article
I would love to vote for someone other than the BJP. But the congress has to do more than quote its role in history. It has to paint a better picture for the future and it’s not even close.

Regards,


Faruk

But given its record, this NDA government needs to be defeated if India is to remain a secular or even a tolerant society in which all citizens can feel to have a safe and secure future.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This may not be the only way to look at the issue. Another way to look at it is that the BJP is made up of two factions: the moderate faction and the hard-liners. Currently, the moderates are in power in the Center and admittedly, they failed to ensure the maintenance of law and order in Gujarat. However, the defeat of the BJP would be seen as a defeat of the moderate faction within the BJP and may lead to the rise of the hard-line faction. My point is that voting the NDA government back into power may be seen as an endorsement of the moderate faction and their strengthening and not as an endorsement of Hindutva. Gujarat has been a major failure of the NDA and hopefully we would not see a repeat.

The major problem with the Congress is the current uncertainty regarding what it stands for. Sonia Gandhi has taken some intelligent decisions, such as sacrificing the Chief Ministership of Kashmir in the national interest. On the negative side, she has been less successful than BJP and Vajpayee in building coalitions. Also, Congress has created uncertainty on its stance on economic reforms, and with regard to foreign policy, I think most people are more confident with Vajpayee. George Fernandes is also well thought of as Defence Minister.

I do not think the current election will lead to a radical change in the position of the BJP and Congress, which is good, since the Congress is needed as an effective opposition. This may give the Congress a chance to change itself to be less dependent upon a single leader, project a clearer message, and provide a future alternative if the BJP takes a sharply communalistic turn.

Dost-Mittar Sahib writes, ``She has now also recognized the need for cooperating with other parties and has built successful coalitions with regional parties, including bringing back the likes of Sharad Pawar and Chidambram who had left the party earlier because of differences with her. ``

She also opposed -- and successfully scuttled -- the candidacy of PC Alexander, a long-time Nehru family retainer, for President of India. Because she felt that she may not be able to become Prime Minister if the President was also a Christian. So much for loyalty toward those who have been loyal to her.

Interesting enough article. Maybe the question you should ask yourself, dostmittar, is that GIVEN the BJP`s spotty record with communalism, starting with Ayodhya in `89 culminating in the horror that was Gujarat, isn`t it strange that the Congress still looks nowehere close to coming to power?

Whther you like it or not, the Congress today stands for chaploosgiri and a corrupt, apathetic feudal/dynastic rule. It has ceased to be a grassroots political party anymore and no longer even pretends to represent the masses. It`s hard to swallow the electorate supporting Sonia when so few of her own party members do (``I will respect the decision of the CWC`` is NOT support)

It must be hard for die-hard Congresswalas like you to swallow this fact. Eventually you too will see the writing on the wall. By then perhaps the BJP will have imploded into yet another Congress and someone else will have donned the mantle of ``the clean alternative``. Would be supremely ironical if that were the Congress!

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: Dost-Mittar

I think that Sonia`s origins will always be an issue. If not, it will be made into an issue for the sake of political mileage. On the whole, a very interesting article on India from a ``foreign-native`` perspective.

Ciao

From a distance, here is what I can see:

India is facing a dilemma Pakistan faced forty years ago. It has to decide between social cohesion and economic progress. If it votes for one, it loses the other.

Pakistan from the late fifties to around 1990 (four decades), averaged a 6%+ rate of economic growth. During the same time, India averaged an economic growth of 3.25%. During the decades of the 60s, Pakistan`s economic growth rate shot upto an average of 6.7%. (Shahid Javed Burki). It was during this time, that Pakistan went from being the Afghanistan of South Asia to being the wealthiest country in South Asia, at a per person level, with the best infrastructure. All of Pakistan`s major hotel chains, plazas, dams etc. were established during this time. In fact, Pakistan was actually able to build a whole city, Islamabad, from scratch, which is still rated as the best place to live in South Asia, (ahead of Bangalore, which is second). This was despite the fact that it was facing an eight times larger adversary, on its Eastern border. This economic growth is a fact, reluctantly, recognized by Indians, also. Pakistan`s success was taught as a case-study in Harvard in the late 60s, as Pakistan was considered the country primed to come out of the third-world.

However, Pakistan never made it out of the third world. And still remains stuck in it. In fact, during the 90s, Pakistan`s growth rate fell to a dismal 3-4% average. Interestingly, at a point where Pakistan`s economic growth rate was peaking (late 60s), Pakistan suffered a massive civil war, in which it lost half its country.

During the 90s, the tables were turned. India, a country which even till the late 80s was being written off as an economic basketcase by Western journals, all of a sudden found its economic footing. As Pakistan`s growth rate plummeted, India`s shot up to an average of around 5.5-6%. Now all of a sudden, people have started saying the same things about India, that they were saying about Pakistan in the 60s - economic tiger, rising giant, infrastructure, bypasses and overpasses etc.

Yet India`s growth seems to be coming at the expense of a social shism, that is similar to Pakistan`s social divide of the 60s. Pakistan`s growth sidelined a major ethnic group, i.e. Bengalis. They became second class citizens, even though Pakistan was generally a religiously secular country during that phase. In case of India, the same thing seems to be happening to the religious minorities - specifically the Muslims.

The West Pakstanis got wealthy, while the East Pakistanis got poorer, or remained in the same state. The Indian Hindus are getting rich, while the Indian Muslims are sidelined. I did a statistical comparison once, between the percentage of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. positions, in the 60s, and the percentage of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. positions now (info from www.muslimgazette.com). The ratios are strikingly similar, and completely disproportionate to their respective populations.

Even now, the South Asian Muslims one sees in the US IT industry, are nearly all from Pakistan. One rarely sees any from Bangladesh, perhaps indicating that Bangladesh has still to recover from the pre-70s situation. But what is even more strking is that that, while one sees hundreds of Indians in the US IT industry, barely 1-2% of them are Indian Muslims. I must have come across three to five hundred or more Indias here in IT. I can count on my fingertips the number that were Muslims. Perhaps five to eight.

In the long run, I think social cohesion is more important that economic progress. Though ideally both should occur simultaneously. India, due to its size, will eventually achieve economic progress. Its size acts as an asset in this area. However, its size is a great liability, when it comes to social cohesion. If India ends up becoming a socially incohesive country, under the BJP, its consequences will be far worse than what Pakistan suffered in 71.

The BJP is riding high. Even Indian film stars like Hema Malani, Shatru, Vinod Khanna, Poonam Dhillon etc. are its members (film actors are usually the most liberal and secular sections of a society). Vajpayee is even popular in Pakistan, now. However, BJP has yet to enforce its own agenda fully in India. This agenda is visible on its website, though not visible totally in its policies. It is completely anti-Muslim and pro-Hinduvta. If the BJP ever wins an outright majority, what will it do? Once Vajpayee goes, and Advani comes into power, what will it do?

This is the million dollar question. If the BJP waters down its communal stances, then India will be fine, and will become an economic giant, someday. If it doesn`t water down its philosophical stances, and wins an outright majority and actually enforces them, wihtout having to worry about the NDA, then I think social incohesion will dominate over economic progress in India. Much like what happened to Pakistan in the late 60s.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref 12-Head #1

[Are these hindu Indians friend of muslims . No!

Why muslims of India and muslims of muslim countries need hindu Indians?

Why indeed the whole world needs hindu Indian professionals?]

If Hindu Indians aren`t the friend of Muslims, you should ask yourself whether for 1000 years Muslims were friends of Hindus.

While your people forcibly converted Hindus, destroyed our temples, killed, raped and pillaged at will, was that a sign of friendship?

If so, then by the same token, the demolition of Babri Masjid is a token of friendship from Hindus to Muslims.

The question is NOT if Muslims of India need Hindu Indians.

The real question is do Hindu Indians need Muslims.

Search your heart for the answer.

PS. Here is a clue. We did pretty well without you guys before Mohammad bin Qasim bin Camel showed up in Sindh.

Ref sunlight #5

[The major problem with the Congress is the current uncertainty regarding what it stands for. Sonia Gandhi has taken some intelligent decisions, such as sacrificing the Chief Ministership of Kashmir in the national interest. On the negative side, she has been less successful than BJP and Vajpayee in building coalitions.]

The Congress had NO chance of getting elected in Kashmir. It was always the preserve of Sheikh Abdullah`s National Conference. So there was no sacrifice by Sonia in Kashmir.

On the other hand, she sacrificed Pondicherry where the Congress is in power. Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion allocated this Congress stronghold to PMK and Sonia couldn`t/wouldn`t do squat about it. To this day, the Pondicherry Congresswallahs are thinking of running their own candidate there and several have resigned from the Congress over this issue.

Sonia will mortgage everything including the honor of Congress for electoral alliances. The question in everyone`s mind is what else will be mortgaged and to whom if she gets into power.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Romair:

One major problem with your analysis/comparison of Bengalis and Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education, discarding some of their more ridiculous ways (e.g., insisting on Muslim family law--the Sara Bano case), not integrating better with the rest of society and, finally, having umpteen children per family.

While there certainly is some bias/discrimination against Muslims in India, it is NOT the main reason why they are so far behind the rest of Indian society as a whole.

re: fuzair # 14

I agree with your response.

Ciao

fuzair #14: ``While there certainly is some bias/discrimination against Muslims in India, it is NOT the main reason why they are so far behind the rest of Indian society as a whole.``

This maybe true. I do not have access to the information explaining why the Indian Muslims are so far behind, in India. I only have access to the results and statistics (from Indian sources) pointing to the fact, that they are way behind. If the problem lies in the Indian Muslims themselves, then it is an even bigger problem to solve for India. At the same time, the actions and policies of the BJP are certainly not going to help the cause. They will furthur alienate the already alienated Muslims.

At the same time, I have tough time believing that the Indian Muslims, themselves, are to be blamed completely. This is exactly what West Pakistanis used to (and still) say about Bengalis, i.e. Bengalis don`t work, they can`t fight, they look wierd etc. One could actually put some statistics behind this to justify it. Bangladesh, even after its freedom, is still extremely poor. Perphaps as poor as it had been with Pakistan. Many Pakistanis (including me) think it is good for both countries that it separated (I actually think it should have been a separate country from 47).

But, the above comments need to take into account the generational development of the areas. Have the Bengalis recovered from a genaration of discrimination? Maybe that is why they are still poor(er). Maybe their next generation of Bengladeshis will be better of than us West Pakistanis. Similarly, why is it that only Indian Muslims are caught in, ``more ridiculous way?`` Why not Pakistanis Muslims? After all they are literally our first cousins (even brothers and sisters in some cases). Why did West Pakistani Muslims end up being the most upwardly socially mobile group in South Asia, from 47 to 90 (this is a fact, even though us Pakistanis have a habit of cynically putting ourselves down all the time)? While the Indian Muslims ended up being one of the least socially mobile groups?

Could it all have been their ridiculous ways? After all, we share many of those ridiculous ways. Would you and I have had the same chance of sitting in the USA, well-off, had we been Indian Muslims? And would we have been scared of the BJP targeting us?

`` averaged a 6%+ rate of economic growth. During the same time, India averaged an economic growth of 3.25%.``

Can someone point me to a site that has historcal growth rates (from 50`s) for India-Pakistan?

Hmm...

If the Central Govt has to take responsibility for Modi.

Then Pasta Primavera (thanks..Arjun) also gave tickets to many of the rioters !
Vaghela a former BJP activist was made the leader of the Gujarat Congress.

Pasta Primavera lied to the whole country on national-tv that she had a parliamentary
majority when she was not even close.

Paste Primavera has just allowed the congress folks in J&K to pass a bill thatis
discriminatory against women who marry outside of J&K

Pasta Primavera has not addressed a single open press conference.

Paste Primavera has a closed coterie of advisors and has failed to develop
a cadre of party leaders.

But Pasta Primavera can become Pradhanmantri.

``#2 by gujjubania on March 8, 2004 6:40am PT
``So, if I had a vote, it would go to Sonia! ``

Thank God you don`t. Stay where you are old man. Stop meddling in the affairs of MY country. Goodbye. ``

Dost-mitter.

You are neither a dost or a mitter ... yaar !!.

I openly second Gujjubania.

Cant resist. Once a friend shared a joke with me. He told me adoption is height of laziness. I know it was just a joke. Adoption is AOK. Stop meddling in my country. Be truthful to your adopted.

Yogiraj Patil

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

romair
//...Why did West Pakistani Muslims end up being the most upwardly socially mobile group in South Asia, from 47 to 90 .... While the Indian Muslims ended up being one of the least socially mobile groups? ...//

Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India. Because those people were well-educated and already part of elite/middle class.

The muslims that remained India not only lost the cream of their community to partition, but also the whole episode left them severely disadvantaged - psychologically and politically. It manifested in various negative ways - lack of competent leadership from the ranks, some sort of isolationist mentality and undue insecurity about their place in the nation, susceptible to vote-bank politics etc... And then combine this with pseudo-secular mainstream politicians who cynically exploited their predicament.

Dost-mittar jee,

I thing you have confused issues quite badly in your article. Sonia Gandhi is emphatically not the cure for the ills you have identified.

You are quite right to be concerned about communal polarization, where the BJP’s track record has been the most questionable. However, a moment’s thought should convince you that Sonia Gandhi because of her lack of Indian roots can do nothing to improve this situation. For one thing, her ascendance in the Congress Party has arguably been partly instrumental in engendering hostility, still admittedly on a very small scale, for at least one community that previously faced almost nothing along those lines. Meanwhile, a Congress saddled with Sonia cannot make a politically effective case against religious identity politics and is sorely tempted to go in for a me-tooing soft-Hindutva, as they did (to no avail) in Gujarat.

Sonia Gandhi seems to embody the worst aspect of her mother-in law’s political behaviour, namely the absolute refusal to countenance any other strong leaders in the Congress or outside it, while completely lacking Indira’s political instincts, which for a while enabled her to defeat adversaries from Morarji to Nixon. There’s no hope of a revitalized Congress as long as she leads it.

AlephNull

“There’s no hope of a revitalized Congress as long as she leads it.”

I am kind of confused by your- if I may call it -a ‘verdict’.

In your post you are just not supporting any thing that helped you reach this conclusion.
Is it because she is not Indra Gandhi like or she has no Indra like Charisma?

From what I read in Indian papers it seems she is much more rounded leader than may be Advani who is just a heartbeat away from running India. Six or seven years out of the power do not prove that the party needs revitalization. The party just may need to take it message to people again. It has not been shown yet that Sonia lost the power to BJP. There were ‘others’ that lost the elections. She is trying to take the power back and it is not an easy task in any country.

You agree that BJP rule has not been w/o communal polarization still, you cleverly take a shot at her community or religious affiliations and blame her for hostility to “at least one community that previously faced almost nothing”.
There is nothing to prove that the hostility against that particular community was because Sonia belonged to it.
Now I would think that it is a convoluted argument and probably portrays your own subliminal prejudice then Sonia’s religious affiliation.

However, your following assertion really w/o merit, as there does not appear to be any reasonable argument behind it.
“Meanwhile, a Congress saddled with Sonia cannot make a politically effective case against religious identity politics and is sorely tempted to go in for a me-tooing soft-Hindutva, as they did (to no avail) in Gujarat.”

Making a politically effective case is a relative term. You may think that congress NOW cannot make an effective case against but would you rule out that congress could make an effective case against it with or without Sonia in future also. So far what I have been reading up clearly demonstrates that congress and Sonia are making an effective case against it, as BJP, which in the past never canvassed for votes from ‘other’ community or communities is aggressively approaching the same community or communities that BJP previously antagonized or berated for India’s problems.

You see congress or Sonia’s making case against the Religious identity politics has nothing to do with winning or losing the elections. Elections can be won or lost on several issues rather then just one, but Sonia and Congress’s effective push in defending/promoting secularism is effectively pushing the party that championed the religious identity politics to hook up with the same community that BJP effectively shunned in the past. So, Sonia and Congress are making an effective case contrary to your thoughts.

What you are calling “religious identity politics” is at the present time is just a representative of the Indian Nationalism.

What it was ten years ago or what it was when BJP first rode to power on religious identity has changed as new elements have joined the politics that clearly are not interested in “religious identity politics” but are interested in Indian Nationalism and the revival of it on more or less secular patterns as it was before the BJP launched religious assault on a non ideological leadership of congress in the 90s.

It appears to me that India is headed back to its more secular roots. As opposed to what was feared up until a few years ago. Clearly, Indians are by and large rejecting the politics of religious isolationism and attempting to be more mainstream as Indian economic interest are become more intertwined with International market forces.

I think the current failures of the religious fundamentalism in the nearby area have also shown to Indians that the path of religious fundamentalism is not the one for India.

Now the question is whether Congress will be able to tap into its natural constituency or not, would depend on several factors and most would depend on public perception that “if it aint broke, don’t fix it”. Congress has to show that it can provide a better leadership to India then the BJP/NDA alliance and that in my opinion would determine the election results in India.

Romair, fuzair #14

fuzair says ``Indian Muslims have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education``

I donot wholly agree. As with every Indian community with a constitutional right to education, Indian Muslim communities are entitled to every effort to help overcome their specific circumstances instead of a ``sink or swim on your own`` type of politicisation of basic education. For example, in some regions, offering more mother-tongue (Urdu script) options might encourage better primary school enrollment. Or, funds could be offered as incentive for `modernization` of madrassa syllabus, as is already being done in some places. Such efforts are not being made with the vigor required for respectable literacy rates.

Looking at the literacy rate figures for Pakistan and Indian Muslims is interesting, however and shows Indian Muslims must set their own standards.

When overall Indian literacy was 52 %(1991 census), Indian Muslim literacy was cited as 47%, 5 percent less than overall. In the 2001 census, overall Indian literacy was measured as 65%, so overall Indian Muslim literacy rate, even if assumed to be an arbitrary 10 percent less than the overall Indian rate, would be 55%.

Even that figure is HIGHER than the best figure I could find for literacy rates in Pakistan, 51%(government-quoted in June 2003).

Whatever this says about a sovereign nation Pakistan that its 97% majority Muslims are unable to educate themselves better than 15% minority Indian Muslims, clearly, it is more accurate to say ``Pakistanis have mainly themselves to blame for not getting an education``.

I admit I do not know much about Sonia, but she is really not suitable to run India. My indian friends do not speak highly about her and it seems that she is actually a puppet of the INC. She also does not know the alanuage and raeds que cards in ger speeches. How can someone like her rule india.

maybe, she could migrate to Pakistan? where she might try her hand there. But she`d probably have to convert to Islam first.

Dost-Mittar,
The problem with the Congress Party is not that of ideology, but that of leadership. Congress has always been slightly left of center, but it is not beyond the tolerance limit for Indians. The real issue is the weak, uncharismatic leadership of Sonia which has guaranteed that Congress will remain the opposition party for the next several years. Her foreign origin is an issue, although it should not be under ideal circumstances. However, Indians are gaining self-confidence after a 1000 years of imperial rule. They have no stomach for another spell of rule by someone of foreign origin.
In any other organization, repeated failure leads to heads rolling with the top leadership getting replaced. However, the Congress is so obsessed with the Gandhi-Nehru last name that they just cannot bear to dump Sonia, in spite of repeated failure at the electorate. You have senior leaders like Pranab Mukherjee, Arjun Singh et al, slavishly licking her feet year after year, even though they know that she cannot lead the party to success. If this is not stupidity at its extreme, I don`t know what is.

I apologize to Dost but the case he has made against BJP and Hindutva is as flimsy as it could get. The fact of the matter is that the violence against Muslims in India is a norm and not an exception. Anti-Muslim Roits happened during the congress rule as well. As a matter of fact 24000 roits in 30 years where about 17,000 Muslims lost their lives. These are India`s own ministry of interior`s figures, which are grossly deflated. Only during Babri Masjid carnage about 6000 muslims were killed whereas government of India puts this figure to less than 1000.

Romair # 8:

Good Analysis. Some fresh inputs!

Indian Muslims after the painful partition lost valuble leadership to Pakisthan. Now the people left behind are from lower middle class onwards. So if you would like equate performnace of Indian Muslims, you may have to do it with OBC ( Other backward Class ) Indians. Similar economic backgrounds and profiles. OBC`s could progress because of help from reservations etc.. Indian governament could not/can not enact reservations for other religions because - reseravtions are for the historical backwards/untoucables of Hindu society. Now if they permit reservations to Muslims/Christians then it presents a constitutional crisis. Muslims lost of there.

I know lot of muslim friends who could not afford professional colleges because of money/college fees etc..

Second problem - political leaders. I am from Hyderabad, India - and the local MP for last 7 terms ( 35 years ) is Salahuddin Owaisi. He represents the old city part of Hyderabad. There is no evidence that he ever spents any time on constructive issues like Infrastructure, Roads, Educations, Medical Facility for the city of Hyderabad. The only issue I have seen him spending time on was stoking communal feelings ( vote bank politics ), buildng Engineering colleges & Mediacal colleges where seats gets sold for higest bidders. Being an undisputed leader to Old City of Hyderabad - 80% Muslim population - he could have done wonders to community/Muslims in particular. Now he is into dynastic politics - promoting his son. Sad..

bye for now

Kalyan

#23 by AlephNull on March 8, 2004 9:54am PT

I think Mulayam makes a better PM when it comes to addressing our fears- although we are as safe/unsafe in PAkistan (or any other part of the world) as in India. But that is not what muslim political choices should be about. We need to get out of this mindset when it comes to making political choices- we need more space for our making choices- we need to articulate better to the political parties- ask them not to consider the mualavis and mullahs as our representatives of our weill- our aspirations. We need to articulate all the issues to them and then ask them to address in their manifestoes- this way we can get out of the mandir/masjid rut which BJP has forced on us since last decade. We have fallen into their trap and now Dost Mittar wants us to fall into the same communal trap.
Sonia is a front for her coterie- which is of the worst sort- Guys! You have no idea how she thinks. She is completely DUMB. It is her coterie that is controlling her and you have no idea that women like Ambika Soni are capable of.!! I would not vote for BJP , but certainly not Sonia`s Congress.

Dost-Mitter

I would also vote for Sonia - but for a very uncomplicated reason.
She does not carry the Saffron colour.

I have seen the Greenization process of Pakistan - from parrot green, to olive green and now the religious pundits chanting for dark Green. Once you let the religious camel in, there is no stopping.

But the Indian mood is presently riding high on the horse of `hope` - and BJP is unstoppable as was evident by the Ashis Sharma`s interacters on another board recently. (I buy you arguement that now India has picked up its momentum - and parties do not matter)

I guess India has to go through this cycle of Saffronization, old glory stuff - and get it out of its system - before it reverts back to its stable non-religious state permanent identity.

Few months back, I heard Advani saying on TV that now that Pakistan has been made - the Muslims have gone. Sadly, he was proving that TNT was right, something I still find not very convincing (being a silent admirer of Jay).

Anyway, this time it is BJP. The Congress will return - and with a thumping majority some time in the future.

``The Indian constitution explicitly does not admit any discrimination on the basis of race or country of birth and Sonia Gandhi has the same rights as any other Indian citizen. If anything, she proved her allegiance to India by consciously choosing to become its citizen instead of moving to the safety of foreign shores despite the very real dangers to her life and the life of her children. Having made the decision, she has done everything to adopt the language, food, dress and culture of the land of her choice and to serve what she believes to be her family legacy.

So, if I had a vote, it would go to Sonia! (Dost-mitter)

it is the ONLY honest, fair and just statement -- coming out of the pen of an Indian Canadian -- who does NOT want to be discriminated against becoming -- the Canadian Prime Minister one day -- because he has no...... ``Canadian Roots``......

congratulations to my friend dost sahib -- for believing and then daring to state that golden aphorism -- that I often like to remind my Muslim brethren with -- do NOT DO unto others what you do NOT want OTHERS to DO unto YOU.......

where were you dost sahib....baRee der kee mehrbaaN aatay ataay......good to see your great post...

re:#8 by Romair
Romair the idiot has one desire. That is to see a civil war between Indian muslims and hindus and see India break up. This has been his favorite topic: Indian muslims are far behind Paki muslims and so there is going to be a friction.
The reality is: Indian muslims live a ghettoed existence and need to come out of it and be part of the mainstream. There are umpteen number of opportunites in India as sikhs, parsees, christians would testify. There is however no place for whiners.
Indian muslims have a lot to blame Paki muslims for their state of affair. The best muslim elite went for greener pastures (that is what one thought Pak was in 1947), leaving the poor and helpless mass of humanity behind to fend for themselves. Still, as Sadna showed in her post, the Indian muslims, given the situation they face, have not done badly.
``I must have come across three to five hundred or more Indias here in IT. I can count on my fingertips the number that were Muslims. Perhaps five to eight.``
So, out of ~ 500 Indian IT workers, you can count 5-8 muslims. How many Pakis were there? Do not tell me that Paki IT workers are doing better than muslim IT workers from India. Given the size and opportunities (no hindus to compete!), Pak is surely doing better than Indian muslims. Gosh, what has the Pakis come to now. They are now content to compete with their own counterparts from India!
Lest we forget, IT in Pak means ``International Terrorism``, which is what Pakis are now famous for.
Indian muslims are not in Guantanama Bay. Not even one. They are not being branded as terrorists. They are up against a ``hindu monolith`` called BJP but they still have a fighting chance due to constitutonal protection and fair legal system. The same cannot be said of Pak where Shias and Sunnis unleashed violence on each other recently. Let us not compare Indian and Paki muslims. Former score over the latter by leaps and bounds.
Sridhar

re: Romair idiot`s rantings
``Bangladesh, even after its freedom, is still extremely poor. Perphaps as poor as it had been with Pakistan. Many Pakistanis (including me) think it is good for both countries that it separated (I actually think it should have been a separate country from 47).``
Let me clarify and put to rest some misgivings that Pakis have vis-a-vis Bangladesh.
http://www.economicmiracles.com/bangladesh.htm
http://www.econimicmiracles.com/pakistan.htm


Bangladesh

Development index: 3%

Population: 132m

Absolute GDP: $ 203bn

Potential GDP: $6,500bn

GDP per head: $ 1,500 (117th out of 155)

Life expectancy: 58.9 years

Literacy: 40.8%

Human development index: 47.0 (132nd out of 162)

Economic grade: G2 to G3: Impoverished to very poor

Pakistan

Development index: 3.9%

Population: 144.6m

GDP at PPP: $ 282bn

Potential GDP: $ 7,230bn

GDP per head: $1,950 (105th out of 155)

Life expectancy: 59.6 years

Literacy: 45.0%

Human Development Index: 49.8 (127th out of 162)

Economic grade: G3: Very poor

So, Pak is a little better. The following article (from Url http://www.amherst.edu/~bamalik/docs/bangdadesh-frames.html) clarifies why Pak is a little better than Bangladesh:

``Under Pakistani regime, Bangladesh suffered both neglect and exploitation. As Fig. 11 suggests, there was a huge disparity between Pakistan and Bangladesh in terms of public spending (Dutta 23). Though the population of Bangladesh was greater than that of (West) Pakistan, only 28. 5% of the total of development expenditure was spent in Bangladesh. In addition, revenue collected in Bangladesh was also spent in Pakistan (Dutta 33). The fact that Pakistan’s Gross Provincial Product per capita in 1970 was 1.7 times higher than Bangladesh’s (as compared to 1. 17 times higher initially), also shows the growing disparity between the two wings (Dutta 55). Thus, the poverty and underdevelopment that Bangladesh was confronted with at the time of independence can be attributed partly to the slow growth in the 25 years during which Bangladesh was part of Pakistan. Bangladesh had ended up with a food deficit of 1. 5 million tons in the late 1960`s and investments in infrastructure, transport and communications had remained inadequate. Although Bangladesh had more cotton textile mills than Pakistan initially, by the 1970`s it ended up being the largest importer of finished textiles from Pakistan. The destruction during war of independence worsened the already underdeveloped economy``
So, is it then surprising that Bangladesh has taken sometime to develop and is lagging behind Pak a little. The difference is not much. Pakis have nothing to gloat about.
Sridhar

re: Romair`s comment
`` Why did West Pakistani Muslims end up being the most upwardly socially mobile group in South Asia, from 47 to 90``
I had posted statistics in another forum how Indian muslims have benefitted mainly in the urban areas over the years but are still worse off than the hindus. In rural areas, the contrast was stark. One of the reasons given was that muslim women, even in urban areas, preferred not to go out and work and thus did not contribute to the family income.
Paki muslims are perhaps better than Indian muslims but is that something to be proud considering Pak`s literacy rate is abysmal (perhaps the lowest in South Asia) and Pak, in 1947, had inherited the muslim elite?
Re: this article
My vote is for BJP even though i do not like its muslim-bashing. I think that very cleverly ABV has placed the emphasis on economic peformance and taken the electoral politics away from religion. This is a good thing happening. BJP`s good point is its economic performance and there is nothing wrong in capitalising on it electorally. By making peace with China and Pak, ABV has made sure that trade is set to grow in future, bringing in more prosperity.
I am however disappointed that BJP does not talk about corruption as an issue anymore. Perhaps, like other parties, it too has become corrupt and has quietly buried the issue. If there is one thing that will prevent India from realizing its potentials, it is widespread corruption.
Sridhar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

``and BJP is unstoppable `` (Nazar )......

it is NOT....

India is `shining` thru the Blackenedly Modified Mirror -- of that Blackcapped, Black heartted -- Baby-Burner.....Guj rat`s Blacksheep Modi.....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

it does not matter if sonia gandhia deserves to be PM or not...the indian voter does not want her...period...everything else is just noise...if people liked her, congress wouldn`t be in the $hitter that it is in right now...

Mullah Urstruly#28,

``As a matter of fact 24000 roits in 30 years where about 17,000 Muslims lost their lives``

That`s an average of 0.7083 Muslim lives lost per riot. What was the comparative figure in Pakistan during the same period? Maybe your friend Romair can help you out.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

`Having made the decision, she has done everything to adopt the language, food, dress and culture of the land of her choice and to serve what she believes to be her family legacy.``

Here is the final test for sonia as an indian, she beleives that leadership of congress is her family legacy. Well that view is endorsed by dost mitter, a true decendent of the conqured indian mind set, finds cultural identity with the pakistanis, and would vote for sonia, a true doyen of the colonial mind, would still long to be ruled by a white. That reminds me, pakistanis are so proud of their complexion, ask YLH about it.

In any case thanks dost mitter, keep writing about india, pl do spare us the exciting stories of common bond with pakistanis following your pak visit.

Ref Romair #8

[The West Pakstanis got wealthy, while the East Pakistanis got poorer, or remained in the same state. The Indian Hindus are getting rich, while the Indian Muslims are sidelined. I did a statistical comparison once, between the percentage of Bengalis in Pakistani govt. positions, in the 60s, and the percentage of Indian Muslims in Indian govt. positions now (info from www.muslimgazette.com). The ratios are strikingly similar, and completely disproportionate to their respective populations.

Even now, the South Asian Muslims one sees in the US IT industry, are nearly all from Pakistan. One rarely sees any from Bangladesh, perhaps indicating that Bangladesh has still to recover from the pre-70s situation. But what is even more strking is that that, while one sees hundreds of Indians in the US IT industry, barely 1-2% of them are Indian Muslims. I must have come across three to five hundred or more Indias here in IT. I can count on my fingertips the number that were Muslims. Perhaps five to eight.]

Here is an unscientific sample of one.

Yesterday, my niece`s friend Rasheeda was here and talk turned to what she planned to do after college. We also asked about her brother who has finished his B.Com degree. He flatly refuses to go for a master`s degree. Her father ran a business and the brother, who was slated to go to Australia for his MBA, now plans to be in business. The explanation is that in 10 years he can make Rs. 1 crore in business, a lifetime of earning if one has to work for others. Nobody in the family can change his mind.

Another story: a girl joined a software firm in Chennai. She enrolled in the MCA program (distance education) paid for by the company. After 3 years of studying full-time while working full-time, she managed to graduate at the top of her class from her place of work. Her parents were concerned how they were going to find her a suitable husband because, according to them, Muslim boys rarely set store by education.

Some six months later, the girl ``found religion`` and wanted to wear a burqa while at work. Permission was denied because it is an American company and they didn`t want the customers seeing a woman in a burqa just a few months after 9/11. So she started wearing the burqa to and from her office, putting it aside while she was inside. She did not have particularly religious parents; in fact, they were aghast at the thought of her choosing to wear the burqa.

Make what you will of these two anecdotes.

Hossp #26

{{Elections can be won or lost on several issues rather then just one, but Sonia and Congress’s effective push in defending/promoting secularism is effectively pushing the party that championed the religious identity politics to hook up with the same community that BJP effectively shunned in the past.}}

I disagree. I don’t think the BJP is reactive or on the back foot here; it has been systematically looking to expand its base, eating away at groups that used to be reliable Congress ‘vote-banks.’ My reading is that this is happening because more and more people have given up on the ability of the Sonia-Congress combine to provide any kind of effective opposition. Read this interview with Arif Mohammad Khan, for what it’s worth.

{{What you are calling “religious identity politics” is at the present time is just a representative of the Indian Nationalism.

What it was ten years ago or what it was when BJP first rode to power on religious identity has changed as new elements have joined the politics that clearly are not interested in “religious identity politics” but are interested in Indian Nationalism and the revival of it on more or less secular patterns as it was before the BJP launched religious assault on a non ideological leadership of congress in the 90s.}}

I don’t think matters are quite so simple.

Democratic politicians the world over are faced with a common generic syndrome. Namely, deep-seated structural problems take many years or decades to ameliorate; they do not have quick fixes. At best wise decisions made today pay off many years and governments later; immediate visible progress will be slight.

In the meantime elections have to be fought and won, public concerns have to be addressed, etc. So if a politician is fortunate enough to get elected during good times, he loses no opportunity to claim as his own handiwork all the good things that happened during his watch, even if the groundwork was laid during someone else’s tenure.

If on the other hand a politician serves during periods of trouble or stagnation, he needs other means to divert public attention. Hence the ready recourse to identity politics and divisive issues when nothing much can be done immediately about substantive issues.

The above is a general pattern observed in industrialized democracies as much as in developing nations. India additionally faces and may continue to encounter another kind of phenomenon peculiar to countries that are developing rapidly. The rising tide eventually lifts all boats, but not everyone manages to break free of the muck at the same time. The first signs of progress may be greatly increased inequity. Tremendous resentments can develop among groups of people who feel or fear that they are being left behind, even if their own objective situation has improved somewhat, because change isn’t coming quickly enough for them. Finally, there is also the cultural dislocation caused by industrialization, urbanization, and exposure to global mass culture. Politicians are always quick to feed on the anger and insecurity these factors engender and to blame it on an identifiable other. So there is no shortage of raw material for divisive politics.

It’s extremely significant in this connection that Gujarat has been developing much faster than India as a whole for a fairly long period. The naïve guess would be that the electorate in Gujarat would be completely focused on substantive issues. Yet Narendra Modi apparently didn’t see any political imperative for stopping post-Godhra riots dead, and it didn’t hurt him politically. The existing strong religious polarization of society in Gujarat was a vital ingredient. There is no real reason it can’t happen elsewhere in India, irrespective of which party is in power, for at least twenty years, until with the best outcome a fully mature polity develops.

Hossp #26

{{You agree that BJP rule has not been w/o communal polarization still, you cleverly take a shot at her community or religious affiliations … Now I would think that it is a convoluted argument and probably portrays your own subliminal prejudice then Sonia’s religious affiliation.}}

Hint: my background, and my prejudices, subliminal or otherwise, are not what you most likely guessed at first.

{{There is nothing to prove that the hostility against that particular community was because Sonia belonged to it.}}

It’s not by any means the full story, but it is an important contributory factor – there’s obvious political capital to be made. Certainly the temporal correlation between Sonia’s rise to political prominence and some other events is quite striking.

{{In your post you are just not supporting any thing that helped you reach this conclusion.}}

True … I omitted things that are obvious to most Indians; understandably not to many Pakistanis. So let me dilate:

Sonia Gandhi’s commitment to India has been questioned (whereas her commitment to her family, i.e her late husband and mother-in-law, and her children, most likely can’t be). She was very tardy in acquiring Indian citizenship; it was rumoured that she and Rajiv sought refuge in the Italian embassy immediately after the 1977 Lok Sabha election results. Her connection with India is that of someone who by chance happened to catch the fancy of the son of the then Prime Minister, not someone who chose India first. The foreigner issue just won’t go away.

There is also the issue of her religion, which unfortunately compounds the foreigner issue. It has been exacerbated by her close association with dubious characters like Ajit Jogi and (former?) private secretary Vincent George who happen to be Christians, probably not entirely by chance, and revealing very poor judgment on Sonia Gandhi’s part. The Hindutvavadi crowd made a lot of capital over it.

This is an unwanted headache for 25 million Indians of Christian background, who suddenly find their loyalties called into by question – [not very often, but much more frequently than through the first half century of independence; and mostly by ignorant and stupid troglodytes, but now by a small but still disturbing number of intelligent people] – at least partly because of the sudden prominence of one person who is in no way representative of the overwhelming majority of them. It’s not fair, but that’s the way the world works.

Because of her vulnerability on these ‘identity’ issues, Sonia, or any party or government headed by her, will lack the flexibility to do the right thing whenever any contentious or divisive issue crops up. People like Vajpayee, APJ Abdul Kalam, Manmohan Singh, George Fernandes, whose Indianness is beyond question, are not similarly hampered, though they may fail to do what’s right for other reasons. So the best than one could expect from a Sonia dispensation is a ‘soft Hindutva’ on the part of the government together with a succession of controversies custom-engineered by the opposition.

But over and above these factors, it is completely unclear what Sonia Gandhi stands for, what her real opinions are on issues, whether she even has a mind of her own. Her estranged sister-in-law (Maneka Gandhi) made a catty remark some years back on the lines of “There’s nothing upstairs except cooking.” Sadly, she’s probably completely right. In power Sonia will probably be the wooden puppet that Indira Gandhi never was to the Syndicate’s dismay.

Nasah #35

Nasah sahib: a quote from the past:

“Nehru and his daughter were political veterans -- had history behind them – u and ur late husband had NONE -- u two had no business being in politics. Period.

now for heavens sake – let go the family business mama – let go the Congress -- and let go the country – for crying out loud –“

Who wrote this cry from the heart?

dear Aleph:

my issue is only with Sonia foreignness not her leadership --

regarding being Chief without history -- don`t you think the Indians should be the arbiter --

A Chief without the Indians is no Chief -- we on CHowk cannot make and unmake leaders -- as is customary for my Pakistani friends -- who want Benazeer and Nawaz Sharifs to disappear -- and Gun totting Musharraf to stay -- `we` can`t make them disappear we don`t have the Guns -- only the people can -- and apparently the people don`t want to....

I agree with you Congress has become Nehru family business but why the massess don`t mind......that we should ponder about....

as far as I am concerned Ghandi should stay Like the Mahatma Gandhi of Congress in the background in control -- and let Manmohan Singh be the Nehru of Indian Congress....

Re : Fuzair # 14

I agree completely.

Faruk

Romair # 8
We had discussed this on another board a few months back. I thought we had come to a common conclusion that West Pakistan’s growth till the 60’s was financed by East Pakistan. The bottom fell out in the 70’s and during the 80’s both India & Pakistan grew at 5 to 6 % and India cut loose during the 90’s and the current decade.

Here are some figures
Foreign Trade Figures (millions of rupees)
5 Year Period East Bengal West Pakistan
Exports Imports Exports Imports
1947-52 4582 2129 3786 4769
1952-57 3969 2159 3440 5105


In financial year 1948-49, the allocation for provincial development expenditure was as the following table indicates:

Province Amount Allocated (millions rps)

East Bengal 40
Punjab 50
Sind 25
NWFP 5


Development Outlay for Pakistan from 1947-48 to 1960-61

Category East Bengal West Pakistan
In millions of Rupees

Government Investment 1720 4300
Government Loans 184 2240
Aid 76 1010


Foreign Trade Figures 1947-67 (In M Rupees)

Position East Bengal West Pakistan
Exports 20,982,391 15,704,714
Imports 15,183,796 34,388,211
Balance 5,798,595 -18,683,497


Regards,


Faruk

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re : Sadna # 24
The problem is not just poor literacy rates among Indian Muslims. If you exclude Bihar its 75% and nearly 90 % in the 16 to 35 age group. The problem is that Indian Muslims have not used that education as well as their Hindu counterparts.

Regards,


Faruk

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

``#28 by Urstruly on March 8, 2004 1:18pm PT

I apologize to Dost but the case he has made against BJP and Hindutva is as flimsy as it could get. ``

Truely...

I do not remeber Dost agreeing to finality of prophet. For what and to whom you are apologising. All said and done.. Dost and Ahmedias may not have difference of opinion on this issue.

Shame on you. Be in US of A. And spit on the thali that feeds you. Be a truely.

Yogiraj

Faruk #52
I am interested in the source of those figures. Also, do you have any figures for female literacy among Indian Muslims?

IMO, the state and polity are sorely lacking in their duties because what is urgently needed is a sustained and culture-sensitive campaign focussed on getting the girl child to school and keeping her there, including the Muslim girl child.

IMO, female literacy is a core part of socio-economic change in any community, including Indian Muslim communities. It was pointed out recently by UNICEF ? that even Bangladesh is doing a better job than India wrt enrollment of girls.

btw, to get a snapshot of Rajiv Gandhi/Congress`s communal record, someone from Hyderabad might like to talk of the 1990 riots . Mr Owaisi was an ally of Congress at that time, if I am not mistaken.

Also a history of communal riots in Gujarat which shows that the Congress doesnot have a credible communal record there too:
http://www.sabrang.com/tribunal/volI/comvio.html

The point is, providing a genuinely better alternative to the BJP`s horrible communal record appears to a simple matter. However, Sonia Gandhi and other Congress leaders need to accept responsibility for their party`s own problematic communal record if they want to sound credible.

Sonia Gandhi doesnot appear to understand this. IMO, those in the Congress party who might understand this are not being provided proper platform or opportunity to act on it by her.

Ideally we need Congress to come out and say that

1. We aim to revitalise Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru`s vision of a multireligious multi-cultural India and avoid a repeat of past mistakes. We have zero tolerance policy for communal threats to life and property. We apologise for Congress role in Delhi riots and do XYZ to show respect to the memory of those killed.

2.Growth of domestic economy, universal school education and law and order should be depoliticised. (Sonia Gandhi has been cooperative enough with the BJP on certain economic and other issues, I believe, to say this credibly ).

3. Need for rapid growth of domestic economy and development is a higher priority than caste considerations in peoples votes since our population has the largest proportion of young jobseeking people than any other country in the world.

etc(in my dreams).

Can you imagine Ms Sonia having the vision or organisation skill/acumen/personal stature to make a viable political platform out of such items?

The fact that more time is spent debating Sonia than her party`s platform(or lack of platform) proves she is not the right person to be PM, though she may head the Congress party. If Manmohan Singh, AK Anthony(:)) or Narasimha Rao were Prime Ministerial candidate, we would be discussing the party platform and party deeds and misdeeds. Sonia needs to stop being fixated on family legacy and save the party.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=42655
Fighting communalism is nothing but fighting the selfishness of a group


This guy seems to make sense.

AlephNull 41& 46

(Hint: my background, and my prejudices, subliminal or otherwise, are not what you most likely guessed at first.)
Guess! I caught you red-handed:) You provided proof in your post. I will just highlight that for you.
(Sonia Gandhi’s commitment to India has been questioned…….….Rajiv sought refuge in the Italian embassy immediately after the 1977 Lok Sabha election results…. The foreigner issue just won’t go away. )
Rajiv sought refuge in Italian Embassy and that was never held against him but lets pull this one over Sonia because She was born Italian and was probably doing the best Indian tradition of wife following the stupid husband no matter what. I really did not expect this to appear in your argument. How about her catching fancy to become Indian citizen or the PM? Your argument does not fly. Did Indra Gandhi “catch fancy” to be born to Nehru because she wanted to be PM of India? You can’t hold circumstances against her. If wishes were horses, we all would have liked to know the future.

The foreign issue won’t go away because BJP is sticking it to her repeatedly. It is becoming like Vietnam! You are damned either way. I doubt that it is a make or break issue at all. No doubt it is an issue if you have friendly press. Political posturing aside, this issue can only exist in fragile middleclass minds as Sonia had won elections in spite of it.

You claim that She has at least two major handicaps. 1) She is an Italian born and 2) She is a Christian. If BJP is playing this game in India as you say it is, then Muslims, Christians, and other minorities don’t have much to look for in India. Are you sure you support BJP here? What is coming out here is that If you are not Hindu, you cannot be trusted, and your loyalty is questionable. If you and many others also subscribe to it then it is a serious problem in Indian body politics and it is almost as bad as being Taliban or may be just a shade below.
The issue then is not just “The way the world works” but is much larger.

{This is an unwanted headache for 25 million Indians of Christian background, who suddenly find their loyalties called into by question}

Do you realize how big a headache it is? I think you have not thought through this and you are making wrong assumptions by saying that BJP will question your loyalty to the country if you’re a Christian supporting Sonia. Then you also say that Fernandes Indianness is beyond question but what if Fernandes decides to support Sonia, does his Indianness becomes questionable then?

{ I disagree. I don’t think the BJP is reactive or on the back foot here; it has been systematically looking to expand its base, eating away at groups that used to be reliable Congress ‘vote-banks.}

Now here you say that BJP is courting groups so it can expand its base especially where congress has some influence. A political party cannot expand its base in a community whom the party finds not loyal because of the religion, or by antagonising the community first. I doubt that Indian Muslims or Christians can’t see this game if in deed this is what BJP is doing.

I still think that congress and the nature of Indian politics has forced the BJP to put a more benign face on or it will find itself moving away from the mainstream. I think BJP is also using better relations with Pakistan to woo Muslim votes.

{{Because of her vulnerability on these ‘identity’ issues, Sonia, or any party or government headed by her, will lack the flexibility to do the right thing whenever any contentious or divisive issue crops up…. So the best than one could expect from a Sonia dispensation is a ‘soft Hindutva’ on the part of the government together with a succession of controversies custom-engineered by the opposition. }}}

How much shallow can one get to bring this up? So the point again is Sonia is bad because she “MAY” practice “soft Hinduvta” or be forced into “soft Hinduvta” therefore we support the party that will practice “hard Hinduvta”. I believe you are also suggesting that if Sonia is in power, opposition can or will use “custom engineered controversies``. Therefore, it is best to let BJP in control, then the question of “custom Engineered controversies” would not arise.

I think we may need to think through this careful. Does this mean that BJP has blackmailed Indian into supporting it or BJP will custom engineer controversies if it is not in power?

{{{But over and above these factors, it is completely unclear what Sonia Gandhi stands for, what her real opinions are on issues, whether she even has a mind of her own. Her estranged sister-in-law (Maneka Gandhi) made a catty remark some years back on the lines of “There’s nothing upstairs except cooking.” }}}

I think that is the real point: how much do we know of where the congress and Sonia stand on issues. Did BJP has shown its hand on issues?

Better still, what are those issues that we are talking about? That’s what I am trying to figure out. What are the issues in Indian elections and where both or all major parties stand on them. Wouldn’t it be better if we see a list of issues that matter and then compare notes on parties?

I think clearly one major issue that is shaping up is secularism vs the communalism. I think BJP is trying to shed stigma of being a communal party and congress is pointing to the deception of BJP when BJP claims that Sonia cannot be PM because she is not born Indian and she is a Christian. I think as elections progress the BJP will be increasingly defending its record on communal politics and would attempt to ally itself with the middle of the road secular thinking.

Relying on Maneka, the airhead herself for testimony is not credible. I am sure Sonia is probably as much of a space cadet as the pinhead we have in the WH.

#19 mohar11

+++++
Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India.
+++++

Well some of them defnitely did well to move to Pakistan and grow rich on the booty left behind by the non-Muslims:

Professor Gul Agha, an eminent Pakistani-American scientist at the University of Illinois wrote:

``The reality is that over 1200 Sindhi Hindus were systematically massacred by incoming refugees from India in just 2 days -- Jan. 6-8, 1948. The property of tens of thousands was looted and they were made destitute with the connivance of the Pakistani government. When the Sindh government demanded a return of looted property, it was dismissed by the Pakistani goverment. The Hindu exodus from Sindh`s cities was the result of such crimes against humanity.``

I understand that Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan played a crucial role in the above tragedy. He had been a legislator in UP in pre-partition days. After partition, he had to get himself into Pakistan`s Constituent Assembly as a legislator from East Pakistan! Faced with the need of creating a constituency for himself in West Pakistan, Liaqat Ali Khan planned, aided and abetted the events in Professor Gul Agha`s post.

Come to think of it, the half million Hindu Sindhis who were driven into exile at India`s partition have a far stronger cause for grievance than the half million Palestinians who went into exile at Palestine`s partition. The Palestinians can easily choose to be be at home in any of the 22 Arab countries who speak the same language as them. Such is not the case with the Hindu Sindhis who were forced into the Diaspora in 1947 and who must live in lands where the Sindhi language can at best try to survive unobtrusively in a non-Sindhi land.

#19 mohar 11

+++++
Those small % of pakistanis that did well in west pakistan would have done so even if they stayed back in India.
+++++


Daily Times, Pakistan
Tuesday, November 04, 2003

Pakistan and South Asian Muslims
By Ishtiaq Ahmed

[The author is an associate professor of Political Science at
Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address
is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se]

..... Apart from East Punjab where ethnic cleansing was almost complete, several of the staunchest protagonists of the Pakistan demand, among them Raja Sahib Mahmudabad, Hasrat Mohani, Begum Aizaz Rasul, Nawab Mohammad Ismail Khan, Raja of Pirpur (author of the Pirpur Report of 1937) and Mohammad Asadullah of Assam, chose to stay in India. Some left for Pakistan later but others who had gone to Pakistan returned to India. Why? I don`t know, but it is something on which more research needs to be done. On the whole it was primarily the upper middle-class and the salariat that immigrated to Pakistan.

Pakistan came into being in those areas where Muslims were in a majority. Such areas did not need as much protection from Hindu Raj as those in which Muslims were in a minority. Most of them were converts from Dalit and other depressed sections of society. They needed more help than anyone else in coming to Pakistan, but they were advised to become good and loyal Indians. I am sure the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh also come from the poorest sections of society and therefore they too have no takers in Pakistan.

#16 Romair

+++++
Have the Bengalis recovered from a genaration of discrimination? Maybe that is why they are still poor(er).
+++++

Bangladesh has not only caught up with Pakistan but it can be argued that it is doing better.

Bangladesh isn`t infested with Talibans or Al Qaeda operators.
Bangladeshi women are better educated than their Pakistani sisters.
Bangladeshi military, unlike the Pak military, is no longer into dictating.

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/pdf/presskit/HDR03_PKE_HDI.pdf

Rankings In 2003 UNDP Human Development Report:

Norway 1
United States 7
Maldives 86
Sri Lanka 99
China 104
India 127
Bhutan 136
Bangladesh 139
Nepal 143
Pakistan 144
Sierra Leone 175

Sadna #56

“The point is, providing a genuinely better alternative to the BJP`s horrible communal record appears to a simple matter. However, Sonia Gandhi and other Congress leaders need to accept responsibility for their party`s own problematic communal record if they want to sound credible.”

BJP’s communal record is “horrible” and congress’s communal record is “problematic”.

So, the Congress have to accept responsibility for its “Problematic” record and sound “credible” before it can challenge the party with “horrible” record.

If congress fails to accept responsibility for its “problematic” record we will vote for the party with “horrible” communal record.

I guess BJP is accepting responsibility for its “horrible” communal record and it sounds “credible.”

This is bizarre!!!!!

May be arjun can provide a link to the story where BJP has accepted responsibility for its “Horrible” communal record.

I will take lesser evil of the two!!!!!!

Puhleeeese!!! Don’t go overboard with your support of BJP. It is sounds “horrible” and NOT “credible” at all.


#57 by arjun_m on March 9, 2004 1:12pm PT
{{{This is the kind of idiocy encouraged by the congress...sing vande materam, get expelled...

54 Muslims expelled for singing ‘Vande Mataram’ praises }}}}

So now this is encouraged by Congress. Find some other dirt Arjun man.

Did not see any Congress leader in your post supporting the Mufti.

#52 by Faruk
``The problem is that Indian Muslims have not used that education as well as their Hindu counterparts.``

I kind of agree with this and I believe that the Gulf Gold rush has some contribution to this. I dont have any statistics but an anecdotal example. I grew-up near two families, living in opposite apartments, one hindu, and one muslim. The aprtments were in a govt. colony and the fathers were from the similar area in kokan, and did similar clerical jobs.
The kids both finished 10-th grade around when the gulf rush was really on. The muslim guy used to regale us with stories of how he would go to the gulf, where he had easy jobs available etc. We loved his sabri bros quwali collection. Hind guy really wanted to go to gulf too, but he decided to finish his dipl. in engg after 10-th grade and then try his luck. Mr. Sheikh was off to the ptro$ land after 10-th grade, and came back after many years and odd jobs, some money, and a more conservative outlook. Once back, the money was not sufficient for ever, enough to start a small retail bussiness. His kids were exposed to so called ``lower-middle`` class env hoping to join dad in not-so growing bussiness. Other guy, did his 4-yr diploma, (none of the IIT stuff here) took some courses in german (in place of arabic) and joined mahindra for years. He had a simpler lifestyle initially, but his education and german got him on a good enough technical path, and he is now a hot property in global auto-hub india, with his kids growing in a firm middle-class env and are definatley looking upwardly.

So, lacking the easier gulf money, kids of both generation would have had a chance to enjoy similar equal opportunities available in the current rising tide...may be the will still have! Who knows?

hossp 363,

Unfortunately, such is the power of perception in an immature democracy such as
ours. The BJP is unabashedly communal, and feels no need to modify their stand -
it is a part of their manifesto. It is at its core a fascist outfit, trying to become a
more mainstream conservative political outfit. I would have to say that with people
like Vajpayee, it has achieved this goal.

The Congress on the other hand mouths secular niceties, but in real terms has an
equally disastrous communal record. The brutality of the Delhi riots was in no way
less than Gujarat. Thus, to gain any amount of credibility, the Congress has to explicitly
apologise and make amends for Delhi 84 and the numerous other riots it had
engineered. With the recent attempts to co-opt soft hindutva, the party`s secular
credentials ring particularly hollow. In electoral terms, they really need to re-define
the debate and not offer themselves up as BJP-lite on all issues.

I personally don`t see Sonia as having the intellectual or political wherewithal to
pull this off or even remotely shape the nature of political debate. She is seen
merely as a weak extension of the dynasty; more as an object of curiosity than
a serious political opponent.

hossp #63
Criticising Congress`s communal record is not equivalent to excusing BJP`s communal record or supporting the BJP.

Opponents of the BJP (including myself) wish the Congress to be strong enough to challenge the BJP, as DIDNOT happen in the Gujarat Assembly elections, because Congress`s record in Gujarat was so bad.

Did such a situation arise because the Congress`s traditional supporters and fellow-secularists didnot hold Congress accountable for its bad record earlier? People who oppose BJP may not be willing to take that chance again.

``I guess BJP is accepting responsibility for its “horrible” communal record and it sounds “credible.”

I have not heard or seen BJP taking responsibility for its horrible communal record. A speech here or there by Advani or Vajpayee doesnot constitute BJP taking responsibility.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

hossp #61

{{Do you realize how big a headache it is? I think you have not thought through this and you are making wrong assumptions by saying that BJP will question your loyalty to the country if you’re a Christian supporting Sonia.}}

I’ll try to be polite. I as an Indian will not attempt to sermonize to you, as a Pakistani Sindhi or Mohajir or Pathan (or whatever your background is) on what your personal equation with your country and its government should be; on how you should perceive your interests and those of your family; on how you think you can best protect those interests. I assume that you are paying close attention to what affects you directly; have many more sources of information than I do, have a good idea how to weigh them for accuracy and significance, so you are far better-qualified to judge than me – even if I occasionally read the Pakistani press.

I will at most attempt to show up patent falsehoods and absurdities if any (which some other Pakistanis definitely indulge in).

So far I see no sign that you have any detailed knowledge of what’s going on in India. Very few Pakistanis do in any case. I do see a great deal of unjustified overconfidence. Just where do you think you get off lecturing Indians on whether they’ve thought things through when it comes to their personal situations?

{{How much shallow can one get to bring this up? So the point again is Sonia is bad because she “MAY” practice “soft Hinduvta” or be forced into “soft Hinduvta”}}

“MAY” practice? Get a clue. For instance, read up on last year’s state elections to the Madhya Pradesh assembly. One of the Congress slogans began “Gai hamari mata hai, ..”. What was the second line?

{{Relying on Maneka, the airhead herself for testimony is not credible.}}

Maneka an airhead? She’s an advocate for the environment, animal rights, vegetarianism. Eccentric but quite articulate and definitely not stupid. You badly need to get a clue.

{{I am sure Sonia is probably as much of a space cadet as the pinhead we have in the WH.}}

You are wrong. For the last time, get a clue.