To Die For.....the War at Wana

Sadna Sahiba:

Since you are good in creating images on the interactice board, would you please if possible guide me on how to get rid of a picture on my intro page. I uploaded it long time ago in respect of a Canadian by the name of Fareedi (?) who posted an article on this website. Now I can`t change the picture. Actually, I don`t see the prompt of `upload` after `browse` when I want to change the picture.

ahmedzai #119 you write `` My submission is that we do it slowly and gradually, since the foreign terrorists will and are playing two cards - tribal sentiments and Pakhtoon versus Punjabiism. The best way would be to first take parliament into confidence and then let MMA do the spade work, before the Government machinery moves in. ``

I dont disagree here. I am all for evolutionary change. Right now the focus is to get rid of the terrorists. But one can also see signs of the evolutionary change starting to take place - road and school building etc. that I mentioned having read has started in these areas with Japanese and US financial assistance. And now that government has exerted its authority in these areas, it is unrealistic to expect that things will be ever go back to the laissez faire mode once the operation is complete.

Certainly the government should work within the constitution to bring about the administrative changes to replace tribal structures with district structures. This may mean behind-the-scenes lobbying with MMA - I would expect MMA to be quite opposed to this, however. After all, remember that the MMA government in NWFP province has been trying to steamroll the local governments to the extent that the district Nazims all threatened to resign a few month ago until musharaff intervened. The tribal leaders are probably easier to deal with by MMA, and they would not be too excited with the idea of having to deal with locally elected Nazims in the tribal belt also.

ferozk #122 The methodology, as I said in the post I just wrote to Ahmedzai, is to work within the constitution and bring about the change. Even if it means waiting until there are enough votes to change the status of the tribal areas...and I realize that this may require waiting for several years, not months. The important thing is to get the movement started by writing to newspapers with the aim of having a bill prepared in the national assembly. I remember hearing of one constitutional amendment in the US that took over a century to be finally voted into law - hopefully it wont take that long. :-)

ahmedzai #120
``Also, by now, the one and only pocket of terrorists has been identified and isolated. Because of these two reasons (i.e. no escaping and knowing of the enemy location), we see the ferocity and fierceness of the terrorists.``

Do you mean it is Bin Laden and Zawahiri are surrounded in South Waziristan? I think not?

In one of my previous posts, I posted Ahmed Rashid`s assessment that in the current standoff, it is Uzbek militants who are surrounded, who are fighting because they have weak support from MMA and have nowhere else to go.

That would mean the real McCoy Taliban and Arab Al Qaeda including Bin Laden and Zawahiri are not hiding in this location but are hiding elsewhere in the tribal areas.

However, whereever they are hiding, the long process of negotiation with tribes before taking armed action, gives Taliban and Al Qaeda plenty of time to escape and relocate elsewhere in the region.

ferozk #122
``The problem in the present sense is that Pakistan is working under the deadline of the American election in November 2004 and is using force to reach a decision and this is angering the local tribes towards Islamabad`s insensitivity to their traditions.``

ferozk, if Bin Laden and Zawahiri are hiding among the tribals, shouldnot the Pakistani government be feeling a greater urgency than the US government to catch them on its own behalf?

But will Bin Laden, Zawahiri or any of their Arab colleagues ever wait in one place for days, weeks or months while a jirga debates whether to surrender them or not?

re: tahmad32

Tribal law is indeed a problem, but the real problem is how does one intend to change the tribal law into a progressive law? The solutions to the problems as you have highlighted them are reasonable. However, even though I agree with you, I am more interested in the methodolgy of the solutions.

re: ahmadzai

Thanks.

Also, one more point to your post.

You are correct to state that it is the house(s) of the offending party which is demolished and it is not a collective punishment, as case might be with the Israelis in Palestine.

The gradual procedure is that once there is an incident or a member of the tribe is harboring a known offender, the political agent requests that he/they be handed over. To achieve this aim, a jirga is called and it is the job of the jirga to convince the person to hand over the wanted men. Once the jirga fails, the political agent informs the the DC of the situation. After which, there is meeting in which the DC, the corps commander of the region, the air force officer in regional command and the DDI meet and decide upon a course of action. There has to be a universial consensus and only afterwards, a bombing or demolishing of a house is ordered.

Once a decision is taken, the DC informs the political agent, who is generally subordinate to the DC and the political agent informs the the head of the tribe, whose member is responsible for sheltering the offenders that military action will be taken. Then the tribe is given 24 hours to vacate the village and remove their livestocks from the area prior to the bombing. The decision to bomb or demolish a house is taken as a last resort and the tribes are well aware, as you pointed, of the consequences of harboring ``dacoits``.

re: Sadna

A jirga meeting can last up to a year or more and there is no fixed time limit for a jirga`s meeting. It usually takes months to assemble a jira and months of haggling during a jirga session. Afterwards, it is not uncommon for the jirga members to return to their villages and hold tribal/village jirgas and the dicuss the issues. Afterwards, the jirga meets again and this process might go on endlessly until there is a consensus.

From a modernistic point of view, these meetings are frustrating because they are open-ended and can last months and even years before a decision is reached. Hence, the present jirga which is been on going since October 2003 is norm to the rule and it will go on like this in the future.

Deadlines have no utility in a jirga meeting and are not considered. People talk; they leave and then reassemble months later to dicuss the issues. What is required is patience and when the patience wears thin, you have two options: bribe to get the results or use force to make the jirga come to a decision.

The problem in the present sense is that Pakistan is working under the deadline of the American election in November 2004 and is using force to reach a decision and this is angering the local tribes towards Islamabad`s insensitivity to their traditions. :)

Ciao

And do the voluble, hystrionic defenders of the buggers holed up in Wana have anything to say about the executions of the Pakistani troops they were holding prisoner?

Romair at # 116:

I don`t know why many of your posts are not addressed to anybody in particular even though they seek an answer?

Taking the liberty of replying to your post, I would first of all like to express my disappointment at a number of generalizations in the posts coming from someone who stands out in the crowd in advising against generalizations. Then, I would add the following:

1. The Pakhtoon tribals have never blackmailed Pakistan through desiring to join Afghanistan.

2. Like everywhere else in Pakistan, we have wealthy and affluent and poor and destitute in tribal agencies. Whereas, poor want Pakistan to move in with all facilities, the rich want that no taxes be levied on them. Because rich don`t want to pay the taxes, they don`t want any facilities. Is it any different from the rest of the country?

But Tauheed, you and I agree that its about time we moved into tribal agencies and instituted Government writ there. I only differ in methodology. My submission is that we do it slowly and gradually, since the foreign terrorists will and are playing two cards - tribal sentiments and Pakhtoon versus Punjabiism. The best way would be to first take parliament into confidence and then let MMA do the spade work, before the Government machinery moves in.

Sadna at # 115:

Negotiations have been done so that the foreign terrorists and their supporters give themselves up peacefully. The whole tribal territory is cordoned off for a long time now. There is no escaping from Pakistan to Afghanistan under present scenario. What you are referring to was perhaps happening till the recent past. When the pressure came on the terrorists in Pakistan they headed for Afghanistan and vice versa.

The current hammer and anvil operation of Pak-USA military ensures that there is no running away this time. Also, by now, the one and only pocket of terrorists has been identified and isolated. Because of these two reasons (i.e. no escaping and knowing of the enemy location), we see the ferocity and fierceness of the terrorists. This is their last ground and they will defend it employing all unfair means, including playing upon tribal sentiments and Pakhtoon versus Punjabi card. Its for the rest of Pakistan and the military especially not to give into emotionalism.

ahmedzai #114 I just find the idea of tearing down people`s homes to be a violation of basic humanity. Even in bankruptcy court they permit families their own home, with the stipulation that (as I recall from the days I studied the Pakistan civil and criminal procedures as part of a training program I went through) while creditors may take the belongings, the outside doors and windows are not to be taken.

Surely the regular laws that apply to individuals harboring criminals and murderers should apply here as well. Why should the women and children of a family have to be made homeless just because their tribal leader decided to harbor terrorists? I really think the tribal areas should be converted into regular districts. And terrorists hunted down like the dangerous individuals they are, rather than allowed to fester in benign neglect in the tribal areas as has been done the past 10-20 years in Pakistan.

Romair #116 Let us not blame tribals for the failures of our own governments. It is time the government stood up to the tribal leaders and handed power back to where it belongs - to the citizens of that area. Let them elect their leaders, and let them live according to the normal laws of Pakistan. And get rid of sharia laws while we are at it. This plethora of legal systems (tribal law, sharia law) serve only to ensure that justice is not served and the rich and the powerful get away with murder.

A question:

Why don`t the tribal areas do one of the following:

- Agree to come 100%, under the legal system of Pakistan
- Agree to come 100% under the legal system of Afghanistan
- Agree to ask for 100% independence

From what I can see, they seem to be trying to get the best of three worlds. They want the facilities of Pakistan, without the responsibilities of following its laws. They want to keep threatening that they will join Afghanistan, knowing fully well, that joining Afghanistan is not a good idea, since Afghanistan doesn`t have much to offer, at the moment. They want to keep threatening independence, without doing so, knowing fully well that if they do so, the will lose all the benefits like electricity etc. that they get from Pakistan.

So, basically they want to sit in Pakistan`s National Assembly, send their families into its colleges, but if one of them steals a car and brings it to the tribal area, or deals drugs from the tribal areas, they don`t want him to be prosecuted.

This, to me, is not very honorable.....

ahmadzai #114
These negotiations in S. Waziristan have been going on at least since October 2003. With such a prolonged process of negotiation with tribes, any Taliban and Al Qaeda members hiding among them get plenty of time to escape. That means any search for Taliban or Al Qaeda targets via this procedure is bound to fail. Why does noone bring this point up, do you think?

Feroz and Tauheed:

Tearing down the Houses:

1. The tearing down of homes is as per written agreement between Pakistani Administration and Tribal Chiefs. It is not an unwritten understanding.

2. More importantly, many clans live in a tribal agency. Its 1 or few clans out of many who have historically gone against the writ of the Political Administration. The tearing down of their houses is done as a last resort and that too with the agreement of Jirga. Representatives of the Jirga would always accompany the team that goes to destroy the houses. If all the clans living in an agency go against the Government, which has never happened in Pakistan except for Balochistan in early 70s and in Afghanistan against the former Soviet Union, then that would be a sensitive situation.

Unlike Balochistan and Afghanistan, rebellion in tribal agencies is not possible, because of inter-tribal conflicts and because their young men also serve in the military.

For example, only 1 clan in SW has gone astray with its support of foreign terrorists. The warrior tribe of the Mahsoods, who are on the side of the Government, formed a Lashkar 2,500 strong to find the culprits who have kidnapped our security men. They discovered 12 dead bodies of the para-militarymen in a ravine today. Their elders have expressed tremendous anger against the terrorists and have told journalists that the loss of these men is the loss of Mahsoods.

However, I believe that Mahsoods would now request the military to come back to the agency and take on the terrorists head on, of course with the full support of majority tribes.

Feroz at # 103:

Very intelligently you turned generalization into holistic reality, with which I fully agree now.

:-)

ferozk #110 Rather than tearing down dwellings, it would be better to go for the root of the problem: which is tribal law itself. The israelis may do that, but the welfare of the palestinian people is not exactly high on sharon`s priorities: The israelis are engaged in an existential struggle, let us remember.

It is time the Pakistan government ended its policy of ``benign neglect`` whose results we have already seen - the tribal areas became a haven for the al qaeda thugs. Tearing down their dwellings may be necessary today in order to clean up the terrorist nest, but it is not a long term solution. It is time we recognized the tribals as fellow citizens with the same basic rights of individual liberty and of elected public servants as pakistanis living in lahore or islamabad or peshawar.