To Die For.....the War at Wana
farheen zehra March 21, 2004
#111 Posted by arjun_m on March 26, 2004 9:00:58 am
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#110 Posted by ferozk on March 26, 2004 7:02:13 am
re: arjun_m
A point of clarification. The idea of demolishing tribal dwellings was a British invention. The British would demolish houses of a tribe, if it acted against the British and after partition, Pakistani army simply carried out the British practice. Before 1947, it was RAF which bombed FATA and after 1947, was PAF which would bomb those areas.
My understanding is that if the tribes misbehaved, the political agent in FATA would inform the DC in Peshawar and he would forward the information to Islamabad and then, there would be a pre-dawn sortie against the offending tribe.
Maybe and this is speculation, may the Israelis also got the idea from the British? Americans demolished houses/huts in Vietnam by burning them down in what were known as ``zippo raids``. The Germans would burn down houses in retailation to attacks on them and unlike the British or the Pakistanis or the Israelis, the the Germans would lock up the people in the houses first!
It is an old time tested method. :)
Ciao
A point of clarification. The idea of demolishing tribal dwellings was a British invention. The British would demolish houses of a tribe, if it acted against the British and after partition, Pakistani army simply carried out the British practice. Before 1947, it was RAF which bombed FATA and after 1947, was PAF which would bomb those areas.
My understanding is that if the tribes misbehaved, the political agent in FATA would inform the DC in Peshawar and he would forward the information to Islamabad and then, there would be a pre-dawn sortie against the offending tribe.
Maybe and this is speculation, may the Israelis also got the idea from the British? Americans demolished houses/huts in Vietnam by burning them down in what were known as ``zippo raids``. The Germans would burn down houses in retailation to attacks on them and unlike the British or the Pakistanis or the Israelis, the the Germans would lock up the people in the houses first!
It is an old time tested method. :)
Ciao
#109 Posted by escapist on March 25, 2004 10:51:46 pm
High-value fiction
By Ayaz Amir
It was supposed to be Ayman Al-Zawahiri, no less, Osama bin Laden`s deputy, finally trapped by the trusted Pakistan army in the wilds of South Waziristan. President Musharraf himself triggered this feverish line of speculation when he told CNN`s Aaron Brown (one of the best anchors in the business) that the fierce resistance being put up by suspected Al Qaeda fighters suggested they were protecting a ``high-value target``.
The hype, alas, did not last. It gave way to embarrassment when the `militants`, far from surrendering, inflicted heavy casualties on first the Frontier Constabulary and then the regular army.
To add insult to injury, instead of yielding any ``high-value target`` the so-called militants captured over a dozen militiamen or soldiers whose whereabouts are still unknown.
Don`t blame the army for being coy on the subject of casualties. Press reports put the number of militia and army dead at 60, the injured at 45, and ``missing`` at 24. The `militant` dead: 11. `Collateral damage`: over two dozen civilians, including women and children, caught in the crossfire.
This is a first-rate fiasco whichever way you look at it. If this were Iraq and if even half as many Americans had died, the White House would be shaken and George Bush would be scurrying for cover.
This being Pakistan where life is relatively cheap, you just look the other way. And you talk tough. The Rommel in overall command of this operation, the Peshawar Corps Commander, Lt Gen Safdar Hussain, vowed to flush out and eliminate the `militants` as the Wana action got underway.
He continues to sound tough even with this botched operation behind him. Incidentally, Lt Gen Safdar`s name was first on the list of military personnel who received awards on March 23, Republic Day.
The army says it discovered a long tunnel beneath one of the mud fortresses where the `militants` were holed up, the suggestion being that that`s how they got away. The wheel thus comes full circle, high-value target turning to high-value fiction.
Aaron Brown had pressed the military spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan, on this point. Was there any way the `militants` could get away? No they couldn`t, the army had it all worked out. Well, well, he couldn`t have known about the tunnel, could he?
If the Peshawar Corps HQs had read its tribal history it would have preferred prudence to misplaced bragging. The British learnt to their cost not to mess around with the frontier tribes. In return for nominal allegiance, they allowed them full internal autonomy. This system served the British well for a hundred years. It has served us well since 1947.
There have been no Pakistanis more loyal to Pakistan than the tribal people. Remember they helped get us the bit of Kashmir we have. They went in first, the army followed later.
Now under American pressure these time-tested arrangements are coming under strain. The Americans couldn`t care less what happens to us or to the fabric of our society. They want quick trophies to nail to the wall, so that they can declare some sort of victory in their war against anything that smells or looks like Al Qaeda.
The Americans couldn`t have cared less about Afghanistan in the 1980s. All they wanted was to give the Russians a bloody nose and avenge the memory of Vietnam. That accomplished they just walked away, leaving the Afghans to their misery.
In pursuit of the Viet Cong the Americans entered Kampuchea (then Cambodia) in 1968, setting off a chain reaction leading to the destruction of that once peaceful and easygoing country. Kampuchea has yet to recover from those wounds.
What do the Americans care what happens to Pakistan as long as their purpose is served in the tribal areas? They are paying us for services rendered: about $600 million a year, half in so-called economic aid, half in military aid, most of the military aid being used to beef up the Pakistan army for duty along the Pak-Afghan border.
Smart, isn`t it, the Americans giving us just enough to better serve their interests? Like giving a sentry a better rifle to perform better sentry duty. And we call this aid.
But since they are paying us something, they think they are within their rights to order us about. Reinforcing this monumental self-belief is the spectacle of the Pakistani leadership taking obvious pleasure in being ordered about.
Should we fight the Americans? Who`s saying that? Should we confront them? Don`t be silly. But how does it follow from this that Pakistan should be getting up every morning and proving to the rest of the world that it stands in the front rank of all banana republics?
We did this in the 1950s when we became part of America`s global system of alliances against communism. We did this in the sixties when we played the crucial role in America`s opening to China.
We did this in the eighties when casting prudence aside we became the CIA`s cat`s paw in Afghanistan. We did this after September 11 when we became the launching pad for America`s war on Afghanistan. Masochism aside, why do we do this?
Now Colin Powell tells us Pakistan should soon be getting `non-Nato ally` status. For this kindness many thanks. Don`t we know the list of America`s non-Nato allies? Israel, Jordan, Egypt, the Philippines, etc, etc? Do we want to be part of this distinguished company?
It can be argued that after September 11 the Americans, out for revenge and blood, left us with little choice. In his testimony before the presidential commission on terrorism, Colin Powell has said as much. The Pakistanis, he said, were given a clear choice and 48 hours to make up their minds. Pervez Musharraf made his ``historic and strategic`` decision, Powell`s words, on September 14.
Fine. All this is history, water under the bridge. We`ve done the Americans enough service in Afghanistan. There`s no pistol pointing at our head now. We can afford to draw breath, weigh our options, do the sensible thing.
We don`t have to be stampeded into stupid actions enraging the Pakistani people and imperilling our future. At least for now, we can afford to speak to the Americans on equal terms.
It`s the Bush White House in election trouble, not the Musharraf presidency (not least because presidencies here have other ways of going around elections). If anything, between now and the US presidential election, Pakistan`s importance to the Bush White House is greater than the other way round.
And who are these `militants` of Wana, in any case? The foreigners amongst them, Chechens, Uzbeks, Arabs, are the leftovers of the Afghan jihad. They and the CIA fought on the same side then, against the Soviets. They became an embarrassment only later.
But with nowhere to go many of them settled in the tribal areas, marrying locally and intermingling with the tribes. Does that make them Al Qaeda fighters, loyalists to Osama bin Laden, protectors of ``high-value targets``?
Perhaps, yes. But if that`s the case, what`s the Pakistan army been doing these past two years since September 11? Shouldn`t it have gone after these elements much before and without American prodding?
But let`s not be fooled. The Wana operation reeks of other things: American pressure, American indifference to our plight and supreme Pakistani incompetence.
And consider what we are reaping in the aftermath: bomb attacks and ambushes beyond Wana. Even rockets fired at Peshawar itself. Which doesn`t mean the tribal areas are rising in revolt. But it does mean new dangers. Don`t we have enough of them already?
Tailpiece: Haji Abdul Haque of Adil Manzil, Tauheed Commercial Area, DHA, Karachi, asks: ``Whenever our soldiers die in action we call them `shaheed`. In the ongoing Wana operation being carried out at the behest of the United States, Pathan Frontier Constabulary soldiers are pitted in ferocious battles against fellow Pathans.
Whatever the case, all combatants are Muslims. Has our high command decided which of the killed combatants will be called `shaheed`? The Muslim frontier constabulary pathan soldiers fighting for the US or the Muslim pathans fighting against the US? Will our great COAS Gen Musharraf kindly explain?``
By Ayaz Amir
It was supposed to be Ayman Al-Zawahiri, no less, Osama bin Laden`s deputy, finally trapped by the trusted Pakistan army in the wilds of South Waziristan. President Musharraf himself triggered this feverish line of speculation when he told CNN`s Aaron Brown (one of the best anchors in the business) that the fierce resistance being put up by suspected Al Qaeda fighters suggested they were protecting a ``high-value target``.
The hype, alas, did not last. It gave way to embarrassment when the `militants`, far from surrendering, inflicted heavy casualties on first the Frontier Constabulary and then the regular army.
To add insult to injury, instead of yielding any ``high-value target`` the so-called militants captured over a dozen militiamen or soldiers whose whereabouts are still unknown.
Don`t blame the army for being coy on the subject of casualties. Press reports put the number of militia and army dead at 60, the injured at 45, and ``missing`` at 24. The `militant` dead: 11. `Collateral damage`: over two dozen civilians, including women and children, caught in the crossfire.
This is a first-rate fiasco whichever way you look at it. If this were Iraq and if even half as many Americans had died, the White House would be shaken and George Bush would be scurrying for cover.
This being Pakistan where life is relatively cheap, you just look the other way. And you talk tough. The Rommel in overall command of this operation, the Peshawar Corps Commander, Lt Gen Safdar Hussain, vowed to flush out and eliminate the `militants` as the Wana action got underway.
He continues to sound tough even with this botched operation behind him. Incidentally, Lt Gen Safdar`s name was first on the list of military personnel who received awards on March 23, Republic Day.
The army says it discovered a long tunnel beneath one of the mud fortresses where the `militants` were holed up, the suggestion being that that`s how they got away. The wheel thus comes full circle, high-value target turning to high-value fiction.
Aaron Brown had pressed the military spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan, on this point. Was there any way the `militants` could get away? No they couldn`t, the army had it all worked out. Well, well, he couldn`t have known about the tunnel, could he?
If the Peshawar Corps HQs had read its tribal history it would have preferred prudence to misplaced bragging. The British learnt to their cost not to mess around with the frontier tribes. In return for nominal allegiance, they allowed them full internal autonomy. This system served the British well for a hundred years. It has served us well since 1947.
There have been no Pakistanis more loyal to Pakistan than the tribal people. Remember they helped get us the bit of Kashmir we have. They went in first, the army followed later.
Now under American pressure these time-tested arrangements are coming under strain. The Americans couldn`t care less what happens to us or to the fabric of our society. They want quick trophies to nail to the wall, so that they can declare some sort of victory in their war against anything that smells or looks like Al Qaeda.
The Americans couldn`t have cared less about Afghanistan in the 1980s. All they wanted was to give the Russians a bloody nose and avenge the memory of Vietnam. That accomplished they just walked away, leaving the Afghans to their misery.
In pursuit of the Viet Cong the Americans entered Kampuchea (then Cambodia) in 1968, setting off a chain reaction leading to the destruction of that once peaceful and easygoing country. Kampuchea has yet to recover from those wounds.
What do the Americans care what happens to Pakistan as long as their purpose is served in the tribal areas? They are paying us for services rendered: about $600 million a year, half in so-called economic aid, half in military aid, most of the military aid being used to beef up the Pakistan army for duty along the Pak-Afghan border.
Smart, isn`t it, the Americans giving us just enough to better serve their interests? Like giving a sentry a better rifle to perform better sentry duty. And we call this aid.
But since they are paying us something, they think they are within their rights to order us about. Reinforcing this monumental self-belief is the spectacle of the Pakistani leadership taking obvious pleasure in being ordered about.
Should we fight the Americans? Who`s saying that? Should we confront them? Don`t be silly. But how does it follow from this that Pakistan should be getting up every morning and proving to the rest of the world that it stands in the front rank of all banana republics?
We did this in the 1950s when we became part of America`s global system of alliances against communism. We did this in the sixties when we played the crucial role in America`s opening to China.
We did this in the eighties when casting prudence aside we became the CIA`s cat`s paw in Afghanistan. We did this after September 11 when we became the launching pad for America`s war on Afghanistan. Masochism aside, why do we do this?
Now Colin Powell tells us Pakistan should soon be getting `non-Nato ally` status. For this kindness many thanks. Don`t we know the list of America`s non-Nato allies? Israel, Jordan, Egypt, the Philippines, etc, etc? Do we want to be part of this distinguished company?
It can be argued that after September 11 the Americans, out for revenge and blood, left us with little choice. In his testimony before the presidential commission on terrorism, Colin Powell has said as much. The Pakistanis, he said, were given a clear choice and 48 hours to make up their minds. Pervez Musharraf made his ``historic and strategic`` decision, Powell`s words, on September 14.
Fine. All this is history, water under the bridge. We`ve done the Americans enough service in Afghanistan. There`s no pistol pointing at our head now. We can afford to draw breath, weigh our options, do the sensible thing.
We don`t have to be stampeded into stupid actions enraging the Pakistani people and imperilling our future. At least for now, we can afford to speak to the Americans on equal terms.
It`s the Bush White House in election trouble, not the Musharraf presidency (not least because presidencies here have other ways of going around elections). If anything, between now and the US presidential election, Pakistan`s importance to the Bush White House is greater than the other way round.
And who are these `militants` of Wana, in any case? The foreigners amongst them, Chechens, Uzbeks, Arabs, are the leftovers of the Afghan jihad. They and the CIA fought on the same side then, against the Soviets. They became an embarrassment only later.
But with nowhere to go many of them settled in the tribal areas, marrying locally and intermingling with the tribes. Does that make them Al Qaeda fighters, loyalists to Osama bin Laden, protectors of ``high-value targets``?
Perhaps, yes. But if that`s the case, what`s the Pakistan army been doing these past two years since September 11? Shouldn`t it have gone after these elements much before and without American prodding?
But let`s not be fooled. The Wana operation reeks of other things: American pressure, American indifference to our plight and supreme Pakistani incompetence.
And consider what we are reaping in the aftermath: bomb attacks and ambushes beyond Wana. Even rockets fired at Peshawar itself. Which doesn`t mean the tribal areas are rising in revolt. But it does mean new dangers. Don`t we have enough of them already?
Tailpiece: Haji Abdul Haque of Adil Manzil, Tauheed Commercial Area, DHA, Karachi, asks: ``Whenever our soldiers die in action we call them `shaheed`. In the ongoing Wana operation being carried out at the behest of the United States, Pathan Frontier Constabulary soldiers are pitted in ferocious battles against fellow Pathans.
Whatever the case, all combatants are Muslims. Has our high command decided which of the killed combatants will be called `shaheed`? The Muslim frontier constabulary pathan soldiers fighting for the US or the Muslim pathans fighting against the US? Will our great COAS Gen Musharraf kindly explain?``
#108 Posted by sadna on March 25, 2004 2:38:47 pm
Cartoon in #104 was drawn by Ajit Ninan of the Times of India
(Same uncle sam and musharraf in today`s TOI:
www.indiatimes.com/it/toon250304.jpg )
(Same uncle sam and musharraf in today`s TOI:
www.indiatimes.com/it/toon250304.jpg )
#106 Posted by echoboom on March 25, 2004 9:08:39 am
sadna:
Simply superb! Thanks.
You remember playing ``KoRRa Jamal-Shahi``?
``KoRRa jamaal-shahi pichhay pichhay aa-ee hai, jinnay aggay pichhay vaikhyaa unnay maar khaee hai``
In my anglicised-days we used to call it ``I wrote a letter to my friend and on the way I dropped it; Someone came and picked it up and put it in his pocket``
Simply superb! Thanks.
You remember playing ``KoRRa Jamal-Shahi``?
``KoRRa jamaal-shahi pichhay pichhay aa-ee hai, jinnay aggay pichhay vaikhyaa unnay maar khaee hai``
In my anglicised-days we used to call it ``I wrote a letter to my friend and on the way I dropped it; Someone came and picked it up and put it in his pocket``
#104 Posted by arjun_m on March 25, 2004 8:43:45 am
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#103 Posted by ferozk on March 25, 2004 6:38:18 am
re: ahmadzai
There was a great deal of generalization in my post.
Military dominates the economic scene in Pakistan and it is ever present in Pakistan. The economy of Pakistan being tailored made by the military and all the companies you have listed, are affected by the military`s economic policies. In that sense, the military need not be physically present, but its influnece is very tangible in each economic sector of Pakistan.
Ciao
There was a great deal of generalization in my post.
Military dominates the economic scene in Pakistan and it is ever present in Pakistan. The economy of Pakistan being tailored made by the military and all the companies you have listed, are affected by the military`s economic policies. In that sense, the military need not be physically present, but its influnece is very tangible in each economic sector of Pakistan.
Ciao
#102 Posted by ferozk on March 25, 2004 6:30:56 am
re: Romair
Thanks for the reply and judging from our interacts, it seems we are headed towards a disagreement. :)
Ciao
Thanks for the reply and judging from our interacts, it seems we are headed towards a disagreement. :)
Ciao
#101 Posted by Ahmadzai on March 25, 2004 2:52:23 am
arjun_m at # 99, in line with the current feelings of goodwill between the two neighbors, has rightly expressed his sadness at the death of 60 Pakistani army men, Muslim women and children in the continuing operations in SW.
As a Pakistani, I reciprocate his feeling of goodwill and hereby express my sadness at countless Indian soldiers, who have laid down their lives in insurgencies in India, and for Hindu, Muslim, Sikh women and children killed in a secular country
Some salient points from the link:
Indian security personnel haven`t had the best of times right here at home. In the past decade or so, we`ve had 15, 000 of them killed or wounded in Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab and the North East. More than 3,500 killed in Kashmir alone since 1991. (Not to mention 11,000 dead civilians.)
Arguably, India should have done well as peacekeeper in Sri Lanka. Didn`t both sides accept us, at least to begin with? Instead, our stint there provided Colombo with a diversion. It gave the LTTE a focus for their hatred. Over 1100 men of the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) laid down their lives in Sri Lanka. That`s more than double the number who died at Kargil.
As a Pakistani, I reciprocate his feeling of goodwill and hereby express my sadness at countless Indian soldiers, who have laid down their lives in insurgencies in India, and for Hindu, Muslim, Sikh women and children killed in a secular country
Some salient points from the link:
Indian security personnel haven`t had the best of times right here at home. In the past decade or so, we`ve had 15, 000 of them killed or wounded in Jammu and Kashmir, Punjab and the North East. More than 3,500 killed in Kashmir alone since 1991. (Not to mention 11,000 dead civilians.)
Arguably, India should have done well as peacekeeper in Sri Lanka. Didn`t both sides accept us, at least to begin with? Instead, our stint there provided Colombo with a diversion. It gave the LTTE a focus for their hatred. Over 1100 men of the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) laid down their lives in Sri Lanka. That`s more than double the number who died at Kargil.
#99 Posted by arjun_m on March 24, 2004 3:06:19 pm
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#98 Posted by Romair on March 24, 2004 12:22:08 pm
Urs ````Ahmad Chalabi`` truly #94: As long as you continue to live in the USA, and contribute to the economy that you, yourself, accuse of committing all these crimes, your remarks will carry absolutely no credibility.
After all, you are living inside the house that you accuse of being a Mafia. You are, thus, an active member of the Mafia. Your tax dollars are going into the Apaches and the M-16s that are being used to carry out all the crimes that you accuse the USA of committing. You are as much a culprit in the actions of the USA against Iraq, as anyone else.
You are like a person who relies is building his life on corruption, while simultaneously urging other people`s kids to fight corruption, and die for it.
tumharey qool or fael mein tazad hai. I challenge you to move out of the USA.....Are you man enough to accept that challenge.
After all, you are living inside the house that you accuse of being a Mafia. You are, thus, an active member of the Mafia. Your tax dollars are going into the Apaches and the M-16s that are being used to carry out all the crimes that you accuse the USA of committing. You are as much a culprit in the actions of the USA against Iraq, as anyone else.
You are like a person who relies is building his life on corruption, while simultaneously urging other people`s kids to fight corruption, and die for it.
tumharey qool or fael mein tazad hai. I challenge you to move out of the USA.....Are you man enough to accept that challenge.
#97 Posted by sadna on March 24, 2004 11:52:12 am
ahmadzai #95
Glad that you think the same.
``see the future and keep us on the edge all the time ``
I am simply stating the obvious based on resemblence to what happened in the recent past - the chance success of a chance terrorist attempt turned a region 1000s of miles away into a war zone.
It turned out to be delusional/very poor planning by those running that region to hinge the security of their region on the possibility of failure of terrorist attacks on the US.
There was a lot of talk at that time about how it was a safe bet that Afghans, who had never been defeated in history, would make yet another world power bite the dust, etc. These were the wise homilies to which daisycutters paid no heed. Remains to be seen if the lesson has been learnt by those wise people.
Glad that you think the same.
``see the future and keep us on the edge all the time ``
I am simply stating the obvious based on resemblence to what happened in the recent past - the chance success of a chance terrorist attempt turned a region 1000s of miles away into a war zone.
It turned out to be delusional/very poor planning by those running that region to hinge the security of their region on the possibility of failure of terrorist attacks on the US.
There was a lot of talk at that time about how it was a safe bet that Afghans, who had never been defeated in history, would make yet another world power bite the dust, etc. These were the wise homilies to which daisycutters paid no heed. Remains to be seen if the lesson has been learnt by those wise people.
#96 Posted by sattar2 on March 24, 2004 11:52:12 am
Urstuly ...
The army seems to be talking to mullahs in the only language mullahs understand. It hurts now ... since you mullahs are not used to being at the receiving end. It is nice to see you talk about human rights and all that fluff ... (albeit in your own limited context) ... now that your enemy is carrying the bigger stick.
While there are various factors involved in this fiasco, fundamentalism carried out in the name of Islam is by far the dominant one. It is a bit naive to relentlessly preach violence ... and expcet to be treated like a gentleman.
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