To Die For.....the War at Wana

Sadna at # 93:

``This is likely Musharraf`s last chance and his MMA allies need to understand, harborers of Bin Laden ultimately get aerially bombed. After sacrificing the innocent noncombatants in Afghanistan to their cause, if they want to save the innocent noncombatants of the Pakistani tribal areas from coming under fire, they need to get their friends out of there. ``

Precisely my thoughts as expressed in first few posts on the site when I joined it last year.

Btw, I admire your abilities to see the future and keep us on the edge all the time ;-)

I don`t know - a mafia is always a very disciplined and organized institution. As a matter of fact they impose discipline among its members with a murderous conviction. The hierarchy and job description as well as juridictions are very well defined as well. As a matter of fact they enforce these things with a murdurous zeal. Their financial transactions are transparent and their accontability is murderous. The scocial benefits that a mafia provides to their members - like housing, pension, healthcare, and maybe education to their extended family memebrs is enviable. Most of its members, especially `field operatives` usually lead a below average, middle class life. But despite all that any mafia in the world is an outlaw organization for the simple reason that they braek the law of the land.

What about an army who gang rapes the highest law of the country i.e. its constitution, which in fact it took an oath to protect? What about them? Aren`t they mafiosi?

ahmadzai #91
Instead of fixating on India, please watch a bit of the testimonies being offered to 9/11 commission, which are currently being aired live on US cable news channels.

Not only Madeline Albright but some other prominent figures are talking of how attempts were made to get Osama before 9/11 but one of the consistent problems was that they couldnot persuade Pakistan, the primary backers of the Taliban, to help them.

Do you understand the reasons why Pakistan was not interested in capturing Osama pre 9/11 ? Are those reasons still holding true now?

This is likely Musharraf`s last chance and his MMA allies need to understand, harborers of Bin Laden ultimately get aerially bombed. After sacrificing the innocent noncombatants in Afghanistan to their cause, if they want to save the innocent noncombatants of the Pakistani tribal areas from coming under fire, they need to get their friends out of there.

A Hamas blow for India

The ambush indicates that friends don’t treat friends this way. Please read.

arjun-m is over-joyed at deaths and mrtyrdoms in Pakistan, but he is missing butchery back home:

29 butchered in India

May the supreme Lord keep those killed in eternal piece and give wisdom to the pelptrators of inhumanity.

Inquirer at # 86:

Rest assured this will happen. The qabailis themselves want Government to fully take control of qabaili ilaqajaat. There would be some resistance and some martyrdoms, but rest assured qabailis are themselves yearning for change.

Feroz at # 85:

``The military owed businesses dominate Pakistan and the military has its people running every business in Pakistan.``

Its surprising to see too much of generalization in this post of yours.

1. Military has no role in running private giants in banking (Union Bank, Prime Bank, MCB, etc., insurance (Adamjee, Alico, EFU, etc.), automobile manufacturing (Indus, Habib, etc.), FCMGs (Lever Brothers Pakistan, Hamdard) construction, educational institutions, hospitals, etc.

2. Military involvement is limited mostly to Government and military owned organizations for two good reasons - (1) Pakistan`s Government sector is still following military style of Management that was in vogue for example in the USA till 60s and (2) lack of management skills due to inept nationalization of the past.

3. Some Private enterprises are using retired military men in their personal capacities in administrative roles only.

Ferozek #85: Ijaz-ul-Haq and Gohar Ayub are civilians, and two individuals. So an alliance does exist between those two individuals. However, the military is 600000 people. I think people really need to look beyond Ayub, Zia, and Musharraf to understand the military. That is kind of like looking only at Nawaz Sharif to understand all Punjabis.

Linkages in Pakistan are formed through families. Pakistan is ruled by a group of families. Perhaps 300 to 500 families. They send a few family members into one political party, a few into the other political party, a few into business, a few into civil services, and a few into the military. As an example, you can look at the Saifullah and Khattak families. Gohar Ayub married into this family.

However, over the years, due to the very low salaries of the military, these families have stopped sending their sons into the military. They continue to send them into civil services, however. So that linkage between feudals and military has been broken. Though there are exceptions like Jamali, whose son is in the Army. Now the only way for this linkage to form is for someone to marry into a feudal family. And a feudal will only marry his daughter to the son of a General. Not to the son of a Colonel.

The linkage between the military and business, in term of families, has also broken. Since big businessmen never send their sons into the military. Nor do they marry their daughter into the military. The daughter of a millionaire businessman is not going to want to rough it out as the wife of struggling Captain in places like Zhob and Mianwali. Nawaz Sharif`s daughter married a Captain, and immediately after marraige, Nawaz Sharif got his son out of the military into the Civil Services.

The linkage between military, as an institution and business exists strongly. And I think it needs to be removed. Organizations like Fauji Foundation, making everything from fertilizers to Corn Flakes, and Askari Bank and Askari Computers and what not, have linked the military to business, in that sense.

Alongwith this, there is a strong linkage of the military with civilian organizations, like PIA, Shipping Corporation etc. In many cases, the CEOs of these organizations are serving Generals. This allows the military to place its retired officers into these organizations, at the expense of civilians. This needs to be removed also.

The military should just pay its junior officers comparable salaries to the civilian and private industries (at least to the ones with equivalent qualifications, like flying, computers, doctors etc.). After that, it should not provide them with any other positions/benefits.

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I commend Musharraf for breaking the prisons of bigotry, backwardness and religious fanaticism perpetrated by the early Pakistani Leadership in bamboozling the Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan`s country into the backwaters of history and social development.

I WISH PAKISTANI MILITARY ALL SUCCESS IN CONTROLLING AND EXTERMINATING THE INTERNAL/EXTERNAL TERRORISTS OF TRIBAL PAKISTANI REGIONS.

There is an absolute need for bringing the Nineteenth Century into Waziristan and the surrounding areas.

re: Romair # 58

You wrote, `` So the military-feudal or military-business nexus no longer exists. Other than in the form of Ejaz-ul-Haq and Gohar Ayub joining PML``.

Romair, you just conterdicted yourself and supported my point of contention.

Thank you!

Military-business nexus does not exist, as you suggest, is an incredible thing to say. The military owed businesses dominate Pakistan and the military has its people running every business in Pakistan.

Ciao

re: Fuzair # 79

I agree with what you have to say. My only disagreement is that the army`s alliance with the feudals and its habit of grapping lands and distributing it amongst itself, makes it an feudal army. It may have technocrats and bureaucrats aiding it, but that does not lessen its land ownings in Pakistan.

The army may be middle class or lower class, but over a tenure of a military career a person ceases to be lower or middle middle class person. The perks and privileges which a military officer gets - like free phone calls to any where in Pakistan, free gasoline, free electricity, a platoon of servants, free transportation or highly subsidized one, makes sure that they end in a very exclusive niche of Pakistan`s economic and social strata. If one adds up the costs of all the privileges given to an army officer of lower and middle class background, his life style is not at all reflective of a lower or middle class back ground. The army officer gets prime land at throw away prices and then, goes around and sells it at the market price and makes a nice little profit.

Fuzair, army also marries into the feudal land owning familes of Pakistan and it distributes land amongst its relatives. The army is upper middle class and dominated by a feudal state of mind. General Zia-ul-Haq`s father`s social position not withstanding, Zia`s made a fortune during his stay as COAS; Alsam Beg made minted money. The question is; if all the COAS were from a lowly class as you and Romair contend, then how come they never retired in the same economic class, but seemed to have made themselves into millionaires. During Zia`s time, Pakistani generals were the richest in the world and they created personal fortunes worth millions. The navy admirals benefitted also and so did the air force. The military in Pakistan may be lower or middle class, but it is also corrupt to the boot. The military is the only business in Pakistan, which offer the most mobile upscale movement in Pakistan and the best bet to improve one`s lot in life.

Have you seen how a general lives in Pakistan? He may have started out in a village reciting the Qur`an, but by the time he gets his stars, he is drinking whisky and whoring and has a string of properties worth millions. Dr. A. Q. Khan was also a middle class person; but we all know that he lived far beyond his middle class means while he was enjoying Islamabad`s patronage. The army has a feudal mindset, because after Dr. A. Q. Khan whored Pakistan`s interests to the highest bidder and was punished, his properties were not taken away and he was allowed to keep them.

Ciao

re: Huma_Mir # 61

There can be no reforms in Pakistan vis-a-vis feudalism as long as the feudals are dominating the legistatures in Pakistan. The only other way is a massive military operation and a large scale nationalization, not land reform, of the lands owned by the feudals. There is no political will in Pakistan to tackle the menance of feudalism.

You are right in the sense that feudalism will morph into a form of elitism and that seems be happening presently. Pakistan is an elitist society and it will always remain as one. Elitism is a state of mind and given the economic disparities in Pakistan, it is not going to end any time soon. Pakistan and the region to which it belongs, has always historically enjoyed a feudal class structured politics.

To me, elitism is no worse than feudalism and between the two, I would prefer elitism if I had a choice. Most feudals in Pakistan are morphing into industrialists and entering politics, but the elitism of Pakistani society still exists.

Pakistan will always be an elitist society and Pakistan will never be a populist society. Our flawed state of mind actually honors the person, who claims to be better than the average person and we as a nation worship money and power; not humanity or decency of character and we have cheered every person who has appeared on the horse back and cracked the whip over our backs. Pakistani elitist mind favors an enslavement of others and wishes to be enslaved by others.

Ciao

Ijaz Gul: Looks like the military is getting into the export business as well: ``According to the Asian Development Bank, the US is currently paying Pakistan $97 million every month for logistical support.`` (Dawn). All those unused military facilities are finally being put to good use. :-)

More seriously, the army is not geared to produce economic goods and services. Its job is to defend the nation. And while the money the US is paying for using facilities doesnt hurt, the real rationale for this support is that this war against the mullahs is a war that Pakistan had to fight one day. If 9/11 had not happened, I have no doubt there would have been a civil war in Pakistan. The mullahs were beginning to smell blood in Pakistan until they made the fundamental mistake of attacking the US before finishing off Pakistan. Now, thankfully (and due to the fundamental stupidity and bloody mindedness of the islamist terrorists which has turned the whole world against them), Pakistan is not alone in this fight. And now with relations improving with India, the excuse the military had for allowing their lashkars in Pakistan is gone. And there is a good chance that, given continued improvement of relations with India, we will see GDP growth rates rising by a couple of points over the next 2-3 years. A few years of such growth rates would make the difference visible in the country (I have seen the results of high growth rates in places like Indonesia, and the change is remarkable - the ordinary people on the street actually look healthier and better dressed after 10-15 years of steady growth).

With prosperity, the evil of mullahism will finally be lifted from Pakistan. That is my prediction.

fuzair #79: ``As Romair said, the Army Sword of Honor winner he knew spoke ``Paindu`` English and this one will stay in and become a general because he hasn`t too many other alternative in this Pakistan. No one is going to give him a job with ICI or Standard Chartered.`

The Army is an interesting institution. It has all kinds of people. From Ph.Ds to paindus. From royalty (Nawab of Patudi`s nephew?) to sons of janitors. There are some extremely talented people in the Armed forces. I think the military needs to set up a mechanism where they get to the top. That is what is missing.

In the PAF, the standard of engineering is sky high. I would rank my collegues there higher than my colleagues in Silicon Valley. In fact, if I am ever successful in setting up a Pakistan office, my aim is to first contact all my engineering colleagues in the PAF, and hire them, before I hire any other grads.

The Sword of Honor guy is actually quite talented. I would feel quite comfortable with him standing on the border, commanding a div. However, he will never have the exposure that my colleagues in Army Engineering and AMC have. In the Army, the talent is in the non-combat branches. Some of these guys have very high qualifications from abroad. Howevver, they will all leave, because they can make much more money in the private sector, and because they will not be promoted quickly, since they are not in the fighting arms.

The military would be well-advised to cut down the general ranks by 50%. And raise the salaries of its junior officers (at least the ones with high educational qualifications or technical skills like flying etc.) three-fold (or give them plots or something, so they don`t leave for the much more lucrative private sector). It also needs a mechanism to get qualified non-fighting arm people into command positions, or give more exposure to those who are in the fighting arms.

WOW!!! Too many fly by night reformers. At Lahore I came across many Indians who came to see cricket. Most were in for a surprise. They were stunned by the boisterousness of the city, festive and receptive MOODS, beautiful roads and transport system in the city and the general affluence. Many had earlier conjured images of gun totting mulla zealots, people hanging by trees and intolerant anti Indian hordes.

Pakistan gazers from lands far afar pick an extremely myopic picture like that of the BLACK HOLE. I know of one who is hesitant to visit Pakistan because he is scared of dying at the hands of OBL. They remit no money back home, are more anglicised and criticise their country for the heck of it.

I agree with Romair and Nazar that our is a middle class and low middle class Armed Forces. It is also the biggest contributer of GDP to the local economies. They actually pay back 16% of what is spent on them through taxes and industrial conglemerates like POF, AWT, FF, Shaheen and Baharia.It has the widest network of roads, hospitals, civil communications and high school education in the remotest and most deprived areas of Pakistan. International military sociologist like Morritz Jannowitz and David Orlandr consider it the best organisation, playing its role in NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT.

I AGAIN EMPHASISE THAT SOME TRIBAL AREAS HAVE BEEN ARABINESED.. THE HOUSE TO BE PUT IN ORDER.
CHEERIOS