Musharraf Will Die

Re ahmedzai #74

Any paper about a 1969 Communist threat to Malaysia is just propaganda by the US to obtain support for the Viet Nam war. When Tunku Abdul Rehman got the Malysian Federation going by incorporating Northern Borneo (Sabah and Sarawak states), Sukarno of Indonesia thought it was a British plot to surround Indonesia and announced a policy of ``confrontation``. Sukarno being thought to be a Communist sympathizer, the West played up the Communist threat to Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, South Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Philippines and by extension to the US.

If you take this ``Domino Theory`` to be correct, then there was a Communist threat to Malaysia in 1969.

Please find some history books on the ``real`` Communist threat to Malaya in 1948 in the aftermath of WWII.

There is no dispute as to ``The Malay Dilemma`` being banned till 1981 or Mahathir being a demogogue who was egging the frikking Malays on to fight the Chinese and Indians. Nor is there any doubt as to the trumped-up charges against Anwar Ibrahim for daring to question Mahathir.

mohar: Your talk of throwing daisy cutters at innocent villagers exposes you to be more primitive than any tribal. We are all quite familiar with the level of primitive background you come from (yesterday there was a news item of an indian man marrying is own grandmother ``in order to better take care of her``), so you can stop acting high and mighty just because you managed to get into the US.

(First and last post to you. I am aware of your cheap, hypocritical, argumentative kind on chowk, and dont waste time with you anymore except to put you in your place once in a while.)

hamidm #85: ``fourteen hundred years ago this is what khushal khan had to say about his brethren :``

Did KKK (Khushal) live fourteen hundred years ago?

The, ``tribal`` areas of Pakistan need to be brought under the control of the Pakistani State, come hell or highwater. This is a bit hard to do, however, when the elected Prime Minister of the country is a tribal leader, himself. Such is the irony of Pakistan.

All this nonsense about tribal leaders having honor and what not is just that, i.e. nonsense. This is one of the few political ideas of Imran Khan that I do not like. I am surprised even he buys into it. I hope he is only doing so for political advantage, and does not really believe in it.

To me, the only brave fighter in Pakistan is the one who holds a gun and stands at the border, to protect other Pakistani (or even non-Pakistani) families from enemy attack. Every other fighter, be he tribal or otherwise is blowing smoke up everyone. As are many vocal expatriate mujahids of secularism or religion.

Let us do any analysis of the tribals. By tribals, I mean the tribal leaders of all variety, not just those in Wana. I am leaving out the tribal followers, because, I assume, they don`t have much power:

- Tribal leaders of FATA get seats in the NA. Once there, they always vote for the party in power, i.e. they party that will form the government. This is not based on any principle or honor. It is based on greed.

- Tribal leaders do not want to be put under the laws of Pakistan. However, they try to get free benefits from Pakistan, like electricity, jobs, college admissions. In essence, they have no responsibilities, but want the benefits. This is not honor either

- Tribal leaders enforce medieval laws, based on suppressing women and other members of their society. This is not honor either.

- The relatives of the tribal leaders are yuppie Pakistanis. They are not tribal chiefs, fighting for the honor of anyone. One brother sits in the tribe and runs it. His other brothers and neices and nephews are as likely to be found in London as they are in Baluchistan and in NWFP. They are generally Westernised yuppies, who just use their tribe to gain political and social advantages.

Tribal areas get affirmative action for their relatives in Pakistani colleges. If you go and check, you will rarely find any student their, who actually studied in the tribal areas. All the, ``tribal area`` kids have their domicile registered in tribal areas, while they go to school at Aitchison and in Islamabad, and then use their domicile to get into colleges, with low grades. Not very honorable.

I think anyone who kills a Pakistani soldier needs to be sorted out. Hence the Army should continue with these operations. The Army, internally, has very strong unit loyalties and traditions. If someone harms one of the members of a unit, everyone else, regardless of religion/ethnicity etc., makes it a point to get revenge. This alone will be enough of a motivation to take out whomever killed the para-milataries.

After this, massive development aid should be provided to the tribal areas. And most of all their leaders should be disbanded, and be forced to do 9-5 jobs like the rest of us. Of course, this is a bit hard to do, when the country is led by a tribal leader, who is supported by many educated expats on this site, even, because he is, ``democratically`` elected.

Anyone supporting the feudals and tribals of Pakisani politics loses the right to oppose the tribals of Wana, because the later are also, ``elected`` through local jirgas of sorts.

#91 by hamidm2
//....forty years ago my mother`s first cousin killed his daughter for looking out into the hujra ...//

Yuck! Man - this is horrible.

And you are right - as soon as you US starts this much-needed cauterization process - tribal-sympathizers like tahmed and ahmedzai will cry blue murder .... human right violations and what not!

But for some reason, I feel that even daisy-cutters would not entirely succeed in making civilized people out of these horrible primitives called ``tribals``. Centuries of living in primitive mindset must have seeped into the DNA.

ahmedzai,

............. your post #84 exemplifies what is wrong with the the savages who live in the so-called tribal belt ......... people like you - the few educated people amongst these primitive and idiotic throwbacks to the thirteenth century - are primarily responsible for keeping these poor people backward and ignorant with your silly talk about pakhtunwali and bravery and lashkars and tribal elders .............for god`s sake, are we living in the friggin sixth century ?!!!!

.......... forty years ago my mother`s first cousin killed his daughter for looking out into the hujra (for the uninformed, a hujra is a place in the house where pathan men gather to listen to the bullshit doled out by their tribal elders - kind of like a courtyard)......... in the middle of the night he and his sons buried her - no questions were asked ........last year, the dead girl`s brother, who made general in the pakistan army was late for my mother`s funeral because one of his nephews had been killed in an encounter with other nephews ................. the matter was ``settled`` and, once again, no questions were asked ................in what kind of world do you guys live!!!! .......... pakhtunwlai be damned - this is the twenty first century !

............ so please stop talking about lashkars and tribal elders and hospitality ............ it is high time these tribes were tamed, and if it takes daisy-cutters dropped from american b-52`s to do it, so be it ..........

ahmedzai #84 Thanks for providing some further light on these events. on the points you make, i have a couple of comments:

1. On the first point, I dont think anyone would expect the local population to drive out 400 trained killers, well equipped with automatic weapons as well as heavier weaponry. The only practical response to such a force is the regular army, and that has been done. This is nothing that the local pathan population has to be ashamed of.

2. Clearly if there are individuals who have married into local families and given up their zealot agenda, I doubt if anyone is going to bother with them. FOr the rest, I am sure the locals would like them out more than anyone else - after all, who wants 400 armed men sitting in their backyards? And while there may be sympathy among them with some people - that sympathy is clearly misplaced: these individuals were fighting for the wrong cause (i.e. to support the undemocratic taliban regime that our generals had helped foist upon afghanistan and represented a primitive and brutal mindset that violated every principle of islam) at the wrong time (i.e. when great efforts are being made by the international community to make afghanistan into a peaceful, progressive and democratic country) and in the most criminal of ways (i.e. by attacking civilians and by planning terrorists attacks around the world).

I am not sure what role MMA is playing, but clearly they have not taken to the streets as they did a couple of years ago when the US attacked afghanistan. That says (a) that musharaff has been effective in dealing with the mullahs (exactly what carrots he promised and what sticks he applied, we wont know until later); and (b) the Pakistani public has no sympathy for these terrorists, even though it exists no doubt among some people in the tribal belt.

Saima Shah #87 Well written and thoughtful post.

Armymen in civil depts told not to wear uniforms
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/19/nat23.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 18: Army officials deputed in civil departments on secondment basis will stop wearing army uniforms by March 31, 2004, a letter issued from the General Headquarters said.
The Army Dress Regulations 1989 (Rule 4-h) bars army personnel in civil departments from displaying car flags, stars and army number plates on their vehicles unless attending state and ceremonial functions.
The GHQ`s orders said only those army officials working with National Accountability Bureau could continue wearing army uniforms and displaying army flags, stars and number plates on their vehicles.
According to an establishment division report, about 1,027 military officers have been inducted on civilian posts in different ministries, divisions and Pakistani missions abroad after the Oct 12, 1999 military takeover.
They include 104 serving and retired lieutenant-generals, major-generals or equivalent ranks from other services, 160 brigadier or officials of equivalent ranks from Navy and Air Force.
Military officers are working on civilian posts in almost all sectors, including communications, education, diplomacy, water and electricity management, information, post office, jails, local bodies, think tanks, industrial production, shipping, minority affairs, population welfare, health, agriculture, railways, highways, housing, labour and manpower, social and women development, law and justice and sub-sectors of sports from cricket to hockey.

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The uniform, which was once considered a symbol of honour, has become liability. A sort of death warrant. Military officers, to whom people once worshiped and idolized are today not deemed better than police thanedar (or swine in plain words). Sad, really sad.
Apparently, wearing uniform in civil is to invite the wrath of general public. Military apologists see, what people like you with their nonsensical attitude have done to the finest institution of the country.

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The next day came an interesting clarification/amendment.

`GHQ`s orders on uniform don`t apply to President`
http://www.dawn.com/2004/03/21/nat9.htm

ISLAMABAD, March 20: The orders of the General Headquarters under which all army
officials performing civil duties would stop wearing uniform by March 31 do not apply to President Gen Pervez Musharraf ...

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While we are on the subject, it would be pertinent to add one more point vis a vis ongoing military operation in tribal areas. Probably, just a co-incidence but one cannot avoid reckoning a weird detail. On one hand Pakistani generals are exceptionally good, trigger-happy and “fearless” at slaughtering fellow countrymen -- may it be East Pakistan, interior Sindh during MRD movement or Wana – on the other hand reportedly they are always fully prepared with an extra zip at the back of their trousers and a bottle of lubricants just in case they come across enemy combatants.

[This extra zip at the back and a big hole in the panties along with lubricants are meant to make the job of enemy easier. Remember, according to various eye-witness accounts some of the senior army officers were “very busy” arranging barra khana for Indians on the eve of surrender in Dacca. Surrender or no surrender, Pakistani “mawes” generals don’t compromise on hospitality. ]

Finally of Musharraf’s being a messiah
But the tussle raises overall costs for the system and threatens the future political course of this country. General Musharraf has played politics exactly along the same lines and with the lack of any principle as the politicians he despises and for which reason he says the army is inclined to intervene into the system. There is a clear disconnect between his rhetoric and the reality of his actions.

Editorial
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_12-3-2004_pg3_1

Shahid

Sometimes history doesnt repeat itself. Things truly change. Geo-political realities change. Otherwise the Berlin would never have come down, neither would Russia have disintegrated, nor South Africa stop apartheid nor Japan would have learnt to make cars but become another Beirut. Bush will stay Mush will stay, only we the people will change to accept reality. As for the zealots they will continue to make stupid bomb blasts and keep agitating for nothing but a little attention from the world. The zealots have no political ideology or struggle. They are just criminals who seek world attention. They know that too--Osama knows that he has nothing new to say, no new idea to give, no political statement. He is a cult and like all cults he and others like him will dissolve. The zealots as you name them will continue to operate from the safety of their comfort zone--suicide and bombs. Net achievement is that they change exactly nothing in world politics other than increasing the level of suspicion and distrust between races, nationalities and cultures--which is always a tender spot.

The shock that you are showing is rightly so. We are all aghast at the central role that Pakistan plays in this saga. To me the Wana situation redeems Pakistan. Our soldiers are not dying for some nebulous them but to protect humanity from criminals.

#85 hamidm

Khoshal laments over the disunity and inter-tribal animosity among the Pakhtun tribes. What makes you whine?

And yet Afghans, in all their deeds,
Are better than the Moguls;
but unanimity they lack,
and there`s is the pity of it.

I hear talk of Sultan Baholol,
Also of Sher Shar Sur:
They were Afghans who won renown
As emperors in Hind.

For six or seven generations
They ruled in such a way
That all the people were amazed
At their accomplishments.

Either they were another kind
Than these Afghans today,
Or else it is by Gods command
That things have reached this pass.

I once Afghans acquire the grace
Of unanimity
Aged Khushal will thereupon
Become a youth again.

Cup Bearer, fill the flagon, fill it high,
Khushal shall sing of war in revelry,
Now blood has stained the hands of the pashtun youth,
The talons of the hawke that knows no ruth,
For full 5 years the tribal sword has flashed,
keen edged and bright, since first the battle clashed,
Upon tatara`s peak, where at one blow,
Twice twenty thousand of the moghul foe,
Perished, wives, sisters, all that they held dear,
Fell captive to the all conquering afghan spear,
Next in Daoba smote we Hussain Bek,
Crushed his unclean head, that venomous snake,
In all our gain was glory, our glory gain,
Minstrels shall sing of us ``Yea! these were men!``

...... khushal khan khattak had their number, so bring on the daisy-cutters..........

.......... as i have said many times, the pathans are incorrigible scum - and i say this is inspite of the fact that half my relatives, who claim to be direct descendants of ahmed shah abdali (a brigand if there ever was one), live either in peshawar or quetta ............

..........it is about time somone cleaned out the rat`s nests they have created in waziristan and other places along the border .............. i say, bring on the daisy-cutters and cut these idiots dow to size!..........the only language they understand is the language of force (as a us army seargent so aptly put it in iraq) ................. fourteen hundred years ago this is what khushal khan had to say about his brethren :

Of the Pathans that are famed in the land of Roh,

Now-a-days are the Mohmands, the Bangash, and the Warrakzais, and the Afridis.

The dogs of the Mohmands are better than the Bangash,

Though the Mohmands themselves are a thousand times worse than the dogs.

The Warrakzais are the scavengers of the Afridis,

Though the Afridis, one and all, are but scavengers themselves.

This is the truth of the best of the dwellers in the land of Pathans,

Of those worse than these who would say that they were men?

No good qualities are there in the Pathans than are now living:

All that were of any worth are imprisoned in the grave.

This indeed is apparent to all who know them.


dsclaimer: before somone gets his six-yard shalwar in a knot, i will admit that there are some civilized pathans - those that have moved to the cities, given up niswar and their nadas, and are following the generally accepted standards of personal hygiene (GASP).........

Ijaz:

Contents of your message at # 69 noted with thanks.

:-)

Tauheed at # 79:

Although I would refrain from saying anything on the negotiations, I would like to shed light on the misuse of Pakhtoon hospitality that would answer your query in an indirect way.

The Lashkar constituted by the Wazir-Ahmadzai tribe was quite successful in apprehending and handing over about half of the wanted men by the Government. However, there is a pyschological dilemma for us.

1. Gone are the days when we used to be fighters first and foremost. The purpose of making a Lashkar is actually show of power that should play psychologically on the opponents. However, if the opponents like Chechen fighters stand up to us, there is no way that we will overcome them through any military means. The Government did not listen to our pleas and forced us to deliver. Lashkar`s submission is now upheld since these fighters have put such a resistance to an organized para-military of The Government that the former did not have any chance against them.

2. Although we would like the foreigners to leave our territory, there is considerable amount of sympathy for them in that our tribemen are emotional and begin to question that where would the ``foreigners`` go if we ask them to leave. It boils to this simple thing. Our elders don`t want any injustices to be meted out to our ``foreign`` guests of the past and they know that this is something that cannot be guaranteed under present international environment. Previously, a safe passage could have been provided for them to leave for some other willing hosts. Not any more for there is no longer any safe passage and a willing host. This emotional weaning of the way is breaking down ``our`` nerves. Besides, there are many ``foreigners`` who have settled in the agency, have married in the local families and have given up any zealot religious agenda. But they are being clubbed with the ``foreign`` fighters too.

The current negotiations are more for the release of some Pakistani para-military that the Government thought are in the custody of tribesmen. Well, they are not with the tribesmen. If they were, the tribesmen would have handed them back by now. In all liklihood they are in the custody of foreign fighters and their supporters.

Btw, its good to see MMA putting up stiff opposition to the Government stance. My family and I are pro-Government on the matter, but this opposition is keeping the Government under check for comitting any excesses.

Coming to think of it, Musharraf is the only high value target in Pakistan!

He has shown the world, how easy it is to fool the Bushies! They fell for the staged operation in Waziristan as the real thing. Poor Gullible Ba$tards. Bush is really taken to the cleaners by the Musharraf. Ha Ha. Can a single soul on Chowk (Pakistanis only) ever believed Musharraf when he claimed presence of HVT in Wana? Did anyone see him ``acting`` on CNN... dont you think he deserves an Oscar?

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