Let Cricket Inspire India and Pakistan

chowk editor

#286 by HP on April 19, 2004 11:01am PT

not following interact guidelines.. pls remove

#285

A working Girl may be wanna go back to her corner of the street. Just make money!

sadna #283
Correction - ..As for the rest of your description, I agree with it. However, whatever the causative sociological factors, I am forced to call it pathological lying, plain and simple...

#283 by sadna
``call someone `low class`, a term I have never seen ...``

You are low class and liar!
Don`t come around pretending that you stand on some moral highground because you do not! You have been abusing muslims and Pakistanis regularly on this board. Low life!!!!

plats8 #264, AlephNull #273
Thank you for your positive remarks about my posts, but you are too kind.

``There is some reason to believe that they have their roots in upbringing or socialization by families, schools and media, and with the general national milieu; also with specific class interests. I repeat that the separation on national lines is only rough, but IMO it is a reality and not an artefact of my observer bias. ``

Re class consciousness, the national milieu whatever it is, is evidently caught in a time warp. It appears to be socially acceptable to call someone `low class`, a term I have never seen even the most vicious abusers on Indian forums use - because just like the rest of the world, they would be ashamed to do so.

And take `uppity`. I mean, this was a term used by white racists and noone else would want to be caught dead using it, but on this forum it has been used a number of times as a put down. An earlier variant I first encountered here was `shudra`(commonly used earlier, luckily not used in recent times). In contrast, as a put down this term can cause a riot in India.

As for the rest of what you describe- whatever the causative sociological factors, I am forced to call it pathological lying, plain and simple. Those who dare to speak the truth are doubly deserving of admiration.

A big thanks to pakistanis for hosting a hot tourney full of overwhelming hospitality and thanks jihadis for not bombing our team ;-), and faujis for providing effective chowkidari. This was a battle of young firebrands (akhtar), and old ``faithfuls`` (inzzy with all his inshallahs) against more experienced willy banias who won in spite of balaji being a veggi. A saeed anwar and waqar might have helped, but its time to move on. with all the tv cameras, its not easy to tamper the ball to get effective ``reverse`` swing these days. impartial umpiring with all their mistakes kind of evens things out. Inzy was the best batsman on pakistan side, umer was best seamer, and danish (please change your name from a pastry to dinesh) a pretty good spinner. Indian team is becoming boring with all their trainers, computer-analysis based think-tanks, coaches and professionalism. They try to pretend that they are an infosys and are trying to win accounts. Pakistan should hire Siddhu as their coach, and Sohaib can run for PTI in the next election/referendum (3-4 overs before he gets ``injured``).

Now Pakistan can go and beat the sh!t out of Zimbabwe and indians can plot their boring plots against racist-bigot Aussis. Its a lot of fun to see Shane Warne sucking-up to Indian TV advertizers though...Ganguly is getting special sledging-mental-game training. Irfan and Patel will lead India in sledging against the Aussis, sponsered by Sahara Airlines.

So once again a big thanks, and Misses Dravid says nice carpets.

tahmed 272 ,

``Finally, with respect to jihadis, they are not a united group by any means. Will come back and write some more later. (gotta go now for dinner). ``

I do hope that you havnt choked on the freshly killed goat in the backyard. here is the typical apologist, jihadis are not a united group. The claasic choice for the young of pakistan, talibanic jihad to kill the afghans, kashmir jihad to kill the hindus, sectarian jihad to kill the shias, international jihad to kill in chechniy and other.

The great tahmed and other pakistanis cannot find the common theme, kill...killl. That is what inites the pakistani jihadists. In kashmir so far kellers from 15 countries have been slaughtered by the indian army, jihad is simple, kill.. kill the kafirs.

#279 by gandibujjia

sorry, you are the best (caricature). madani was much better. work harder.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#271.. wow.. the hoors also fall in the ``thay made us do it`` category?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Tauheed at 271:

Read your informative post with interest.

Thanks or sharing.

Tahmed #266,

Completely agree. I was just pointing to this particular instance.

Alephnull #273,

Concur with you about Zafar; leaving him out was an oversight on my part. I really
do wish he`d participate more frequently here. My knowledge about the various
Indo-Pak political issues discussed here is rather sketchy, and lurking on chowk
has certainly been an interesting learning experience.

Don`t see much of Fuzair these days either - used to enjoy it when you guys discussed
strategic military matters.

Plats #264, arjun_m #265

That article in the Washington Post is IMO quite balanced. It mentions names that ought to be familiar to people following these matters – Wendy Doniger, Rajiv Malhotra, Vijay Prashad, James Laine …. It has provided enough context, that people who read it carefully can dig further into the background, get some idea of what has really been happening on all sides of this issue over the last couple of decades, and reach an informed conclusion of their own. Intellectually lazy people who bring along their own preconceived notions, read inattentively, suffer from deficient comprehension, may of course reach different conclusions.

Plats8 #264

Let me say at the outset that I’m nowhere near sadna’s class, not even close – I’ve nothing like her combination of depth, range and balance. You may be extrapolating from two dozen or so posts I wrote on the ‘Constipated Faujiz’ and ‘Nuclear Noose’ boards about two months back. I think the substantive ones were not too bad, but I`ve little to offer on most other issues. The recently – hopefully permanently – returned Zafar is someone who, during the period when he was most active, was IMO comparable in quality and quantity to Sadna.

Leaving behind the merely personal, there are deep patterns that underlie the fractious debate here, and on many other Chowk boards. I don’t know how long you lurked on Chowk, but fundamental and rancorous disagreement on the terms of discourse - only roughly on national lines and with significant exceptions on both sides - has been a regular feature of Chowk interactions for more than three years.

It is the case that a poster on Chowk – typically, but not exclusively, an Indian - can be excoriated as a hatemonger, a pathetic bigot, a Hindutva fanatic, an enemy of all Muslims, ‘low-class’ (i.e. ill-bred) etc. etc. - as a consequence of disagreeing with a Pakistani, or with the official Pakistan worldview; or of simply being persistent and unrelenting in bring to light embarrassing facts, highlighting glaring inequities, asking inconvenient questions that some people would rather have suppressed.

I believe there are several things going on:

First, there is a divergence in culturally specific notions of tolerance, politeness, civil discourse; on what is ‘primitive’ and ‘uncivilized’; and on the relative value to be attached to politeness compared with truthfulness, openness, directness. This is exacerbated by phony claims of trans-cultural or moral universalism made for some culturally specific notions.

Second, there is a habit of conflating several things, that you noticed a while back – confusing individuals with abstractions such as religion or nationality that are somehow associated with them but in no way completely define them; also conflating religions with nations or states. Thus for instance hostile comments about the Pakistani nation, or state, or regime are automatically taken to be attacks on Islam the religion, and vice versa; and these are then also construed as insults or denigration of every individual who happens to be a Muslim (in some sense), or a Pakistani.

Along similar lines, religions as abstract systems of lore, legend, thought, ideas, etc., are expected to be as exempt from critical scrutiny, as individuals are held to deserve protection from physical violence.

Third, there is a disagreement over what role Chowk should serve – whether it should be primarily an unfettered free marketplace of ideas; or on the other hand a venue dedicated to ‘India-Pakistan friendship’ where contentious issues cannot be discussed in the most open manner possible for fear of offending assorted religious and national sentiments.

What is interesting is that these disagreements do not seem to be a consequence of the personal idiosyncrasies of a few prolific posters. They are observed over a range of age groups and generations. There is some reason to believe that they have their roots in upbringing or socialization by families, schools and media, and with the general national milieu; also with specific class interests. I repeat that the separation on national lines is only rough, but IMO it is a reality and not an artefact of my observer bias.

I think these are very significant phenomena, and have some inchoate theories on their roots.

jang #269 I understand your concerns, but you definitely overestimate the level of support to the jihadi cause in Pakistan.

Speaking for myself (and that is all anyone can do on chowk, I think), it seems obvious that what is in the best interests of the Indian kashmiris is for peace to prevail. Pakistan has nothing to offer them that they cant get by being part of India: the Indian economy is doing well and the democratic structure is well established. So, to me it is a no-brainer.

With respect to the ordinary person in Pakistan, despite what you may have heard in India and despite what musharaff used to say about ``kashmir is in our blood``, the fact is that he is more concerned about earning a living and improving his lot in life than about jihad. Witness the vast numbers of pakistanis who seek employment in the middle east, europe, US. And witness the life of the average Pakistani within pakistan - often spent doing backbreaking work all day long.

Finally, with respect to jihadis, they are not a united group by any means. Will come back and write some more later. (gotta go now for dinner).