How real is Musharraf’s real democracy?

Here is an excerpt from Washington Post of April 11th in regards to the battle of Fallujah:

[A battalion of the new Iraqi army refused to go to Fallujah earlier this week to support U.S. Marines battling for control of the city, senior U.S. Army officers here said. Members of the battalion insisted during the ensuing discussions: ``We did not sign up to fight Iraqis.`` ]

Even an occupied army which is entirely on the payroll of Americans had enough dignity to refuse firing on its own people. Yet, here was General Whore, smiling his whorish smile on American TV, telling the american people how he was using gunship helicopters against his own people.

My response to Tahmed32, mantolives, ferozk, NHK and other apologists of General Whore is this: In your salvery to West, you have lived without dignity for so long that you wouldn`t recognize dignity even if it walked by you. Truth Shall Rise. And when it does, THE WHORE WILL BE NO MORE !!!

In the meantime, continue to rationalize and intellectualize for us the murder of our citizens. Tell us about ``economic indicators``. Explain to us the intricacies of democracy.

Zain Malik

Farrukh Saleem is a regular writer in Pakistani newspapers. He belongs to the category of writers who always complain about any govt., and have formed a following, due to their cynicism. I generally rely more on Shahid Javed Burkis` Tuesday column in Dawn, to get a good assessment of Pakistan`s economy. However, Furrukh Saleem does come up with some interesting insights, now and then. He is a doctor (Ph.D in economics maybe???). Even a cynic like him has been convinced over the past few quarters that Pakistan has economically picked up, quite a bit. As has Burki, WB, IMF, ADB, Moody`s, S&P, Agha Khan dev., Stock Exchange, Chambers of Commerce etc.

I suppose, in the long run, it is the international credit ratings of a country, that decide its financial stability. And Pakistan`s ratings with all international organizaitons have gone up, quite a bit..

Following is an interesting article from Saleem:

``A brighter future?

Dr Farrukh Saleem

On 11 September 2001 Pakistan got a new lease on life. Since that fateful day Pakistan has taken a whole host of major policy decisions. Nearly every major decision taken over the past 30 months has been good for the future of Pakistan. That is almost three consecutive years of superb decision-making. Now, that’s a first in Pakistan’s chequered history.

We have never been as close to peace with India as we are now. We have managed to leap from the status of a near-pariah state to a Major Non-NATO Ally. Economically, we are better off than ever before. Real economic growth has actually bypassed all government estimates. Inflation is low, reserves are high. Interest rates are low, Large Scale Manufacturing has gone up a spectacular 14.7 percent. Our national debt is decreasing, tax receipts are increasing. Dollar is falling, remittances are strong.

In 2001, our economic growth rate was around 2 percent and foreign exchange reserves hovered around half a billion dollars. The economy is now growing by over 5 percent and reserves are at $12 billion. Pakistan’s middle class is buying more homes, more cars and more consumer electronics. In 2002, Pakistan’s auto manufacturers sold 30,000 automobiles. This year it’s going to be over 60,000 automobiles. Pakistanis must be getting richer.

The Karachi Stock Exchange (KSE) is at a historical high and property prices are going through the roof. In effect, Pakistanis are getting richer. On 11 September, 2001 KSE (as represented by the KSE-100 Index) stood at 1,255 points with capitalisation at Rs317 billion. On 2 April 2004, KSE-100 was at 5,161 points, capitalisation at Rs1.383 trillion. At the KSE alone, Pakistanis are richer by Rs1 trillioooooooooooon (1 followed by 12 zeroes) or a wholesome $18 billion.

The credit for the newfound prosperity around us and the hope of a brighter future finally stops at the polished desk of our real PM. On the debit side of things, democracy has suffered and shall continue to suffer. The debit also piles up at the desk of our real PM.

In purely monetary terms, the Taliban policy must have eaten up several hundred million dollars of precious little that we had back then. It is difficult to monetise the costs of our Kashmir policy but a conservative estimate will equate it to our accumulated dollar debt. Then there is the Bomb, throw in a few more billions.`` (full article at www.jang.com.pk)

I think if we judge and kick out (or kick in) govts. by economic indicators and not be electoral indicators for another fifteen years, we should be well on our way. After that, all us expatriates can move back to Pakistan, and start discussing democracy and elections. Everyone will be more interested in such concepts then, because their immediate needs of jobs will be taken care of.

Excess of information means No information. Any society that reads unnecessarily really stays ignorant. Even ignorant of the fact that it is ignorant. In this respect the genuinely ignorant is better informed than the deluded ``paRRhaa-Likhaa``--Echoboom.

( what a hoot this term ``educated``, lavishly used only in Pakiland..the educated ones. Not learned but educated ones--the totaa-mynahs, the ba ba blacksheep, the Jacked & Jilted ones)

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Gen. Musharraf, a Mohajir of Azamgarh/Karachi origin, had subsequently settled down in Gujranwala in Punjab and prefers to project himself more as a Punjabi than as a Mohajir. He was commissioned in the Pakistan Army Artillery in 1964.

He had an undistinguished career till the 1980s, when he caught the eye of Gen.Zia-ul-Haq and Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg, another Mohajir COAS.

Gen. Zia, who preferred devoutly Muslim officers in important positions, chose Gen. Musharraf for advancement as he was, like Gen. Zia himself, a devout Deobandi and was strongly recommended by the Jamaat-e-Islami.

The first assignment given by Zia to him was in the training of the mercenaries recruited by various Islamic extremist groups for fighting against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. It was during those days that Gen. Musharaff came into contact with Osama bin Laden, then a reputed civil engineer of Saudi Arabia, who had been recruited by the USA`s Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and brought to Pakistan for constructing bunkers for the Afghan Mujahideen in difficult terrain.

bin Laden initially made his reputation in Afghanistan not as a mujahideen or terrorist, but as a civil engineer who could construct bunkers in any terrain. He also developed the technique of constructing long tunnels to isolated Soviet and Afghan military posts. The Mujahideen used to suddenly emerge from these tunnels and surprise the Soviet and Afghan troops. The links, which Gen. Musharraf developed with bin Laden in those days, have subsequently remained strong.

It was alleged that Gen. Musharraf also developed a nexus with the narcotics smugglers of the North-West Frontier Province (NWFP). Even though the CIA valued his services in Afghanistan, the Narcotics Control officials of the US had reservations about him because of suspicions of his contacts with the narcotics smugglers.

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P.S: Crow is being served as a main course for the BaRRaa-Kana at Laal-Kurtee. Dogs, Bitches, and Pakis MUST showup in their full military dinner-jackets.

US Ambassador will personally spoonfeed the wtc-consomme.

Rozaiba, I am an elitist freak. I refuse to acknowledge people who resort to personal attacks.

This is trash talk. Please explain me your logic. Cause you have just insulted 85% of the uneducated, illeterate population of Pakistan. Only the elitist freaks do this. Are you an elitist freak? The argument that the common person doesn`t know the value of democracy reeks of sht. I don`t know the true value of many things. Does that mean those have to be taken away from me? Most of my friends can read and write. Yet they openly state that they will vote for someone with clout, with muscle- ie someone who can be crooked to get things done. Thus they favor crooked politicians over say the masoom PTI candidate. Are you saying YOU are smarter then them? That YOU can BETTER judge for THEM the impact of THEIR rights? (Rozaiba)

I never give much credence to ``personal observations``, I think that is the problem in this debate. The fact that people writing, criticizing Musharraf have no understanding of democracy itself....let me bring in a few ``FACTS`` for a change, from countries (developing countries, much like Pakistan) that have gone through similar periods....

First of all the situation of Pakistan is not unique, many LDC`s (less developed countries) Third World Countries have often attempted to enforce democracy and have time and again slid into authoritarianism, the reasons for which are corruption in the civil bureacracy, trust in the armed forces, etc. etc.

Political Scientists identify the recent wave of democratization as the Third Wave (started in 1974, also that there have been Two earlier waves of democratization)...

Democracy is fragile in poor countries (Above $6,000 percapita income Democracy becomes impregnable)

The fact of the matter, in short is countries like Indonesia had almost 40 years of authoritarian rule, Sukarno`s Guided Democracy and Suharto`s New oder) but their economic infrastructure and the quality of their newly instituted presidential democracy (instituded 1999) is excellent...South Korea is another example where General Chun`s regime was very successful in instituing economic growth...just look up South Korea`s GDP

In short such progressive authoritarian regimes fulfilled a fundamental prerequisite for democracy in these countries, which is improving economic conditions.....

InYourFace #40 Please review the context in which I said that: far from being a line of reasoining that would justify violence of the kind in Godhra or Gujerat as you indicate, it is in fact the OPPOSITE: namely, that musharaff is (finally) cracking down on the terrorists, and thus removing the threat of terrorist attacks on the world (not just Pakistani). And cracking down on terrorists in Pakistan should have been a top priority job for for the Pakistan government all along, I hope you will agree.

Thus: even if one is cynical about the reasons why musharaff has finally seen the light (as many people correctly are, given his past tolerance of lashkars), the fact is that musharaff has no reason to protect those lashkars any longer. As proof, I would like you to remember that these terrorists have twice tried to assassinate musharaff.

And even in the march towards democracy and peace in Pakistan, I think musharaff has proved more effective than any Pakistani leader that I can recall. He has already made a sea change at the district level by introducing locally elected district executives (nazims). This has broken the hold of the civil-military bureaucracy that had its iron grip on Pakistan since 1947, a grip that was strengthened by Ayub. In addition, by persuing peace with India, in fact, musharaff is obviously sowing the seed for the reduction of military influence in Pakistan civil life.

To compare him with arab dictators (who almost invariably seek first and foremost to stay on to absolute power for life, and to then pass the reins over to their sons - as is the case in Egypt and Libya, and as has already happened in Syria), as hamidm does, is an incredibly simplistic view.

It is in light of such ACTIONS (not words) that I think musharaff is the best bet that Pakistan has at the moment. Pakistan is not Libya or Egypt, and Musharaff is not a half-brained dynasty maker like Hussein or Gaddafi.

I hope I have made this point clear.

hamidm #: A quick observation and question:

I think people give two hoots for democracy (and for religion and for secularism). A comp. programmer from Tamil-land in a democratic and secular India jumps at an opportunity to move to a strictly Wahabi non-secular non-democratic kindgom of Saudi Arabia or UAE, as quickly as you jumped at the opportunity to migrate to the USA for the same reasons.

I migrated out of Pakistan to make more money and get a better standard of living. In the process, I deliberately gave up my right to vote, since as a Pakistani I could not vote in the USA. How in the world can I now argue that those in Pakistan should uphold screwed up democracy and give it more importance than anything else....

Could I ask you why you migrated out of Pakistan? Wasn`t it to make more money, like the rest of us. Or was it to migrate to the USA, to vote for the Republican or Democrat party?

Based on this, don`t you think everyone living in Pakistan, should be allowed to make the same choice that you have made, i.e. not be bogged down only by voting. And be able to select whether they want to chose elections or jobs, if they cannot get both at the same time.

I think if a person wants to discredit a govt. in Pakistan, they need to present an ecnomic argument vis-a-vis previous govt. An argument based on democracy and elections, will not appeal to most poor Pakistanis. It will only appeal to wealthy ones, or to expatriates (even though they themselves opted for ecnomics over democracy).

Isn`t it a bit hypocritical now to keep pushing for democracy over ecnomics? Now if you can convince everyone that BB and NS will raise Pakistan`s economic growth rate, higher than the current govt., I am all ears. They had their chance twice, and made Pakistan an economic basketcase. If you believe they have changed their ways, then I have a used car, and some old furniture in my attic that I would like to seel to you......

Zakk/Ahmadzai: I think the best form of govt. is one that has both an institutional basis and economic success. Strangely, this is present only in the West. Once a society reaches this level, it ends up in the first world, and then never receedes back into the third world. It is somewhat of a Catch-22 however, since to get that level of stability, one has to be in the first world to begin with.

I will post something from Fareed Zakaria, that I posted on another thread. I am now a pretty firm believer of this:

Farid Zakaria is an editor of Newsweek. He is considered one of the most knowledgeable individuals on international policy, in the USA - the country which is one of the mother of the democratic system. He is a bit of an, ``Uncle Tom`` on some issues, on my opinion, but his depth of knowledge is extremely impressive. He has authored a very popular best-seller, titled, ``The Future of Freedom.`` This book has been called, ``A work of tremendous originality and insight.`` by the Washington Post. This book was, ``a national bestseller, including extended stays on the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Washington Post.``

Following is Publisher`s Weekly`s review of the book:

``Democracy is not inherently good, Zakaria (From Wealth to Power) tells us in his thought-provoking and timely second book. It works in some situations and not others, and needs strong limits to function properly. The editor of Newsweek International and former managing editor of Foreign Affairs takes us on a tour of democracy`s deficiencies, beginning with the reminder that in 1933 Germans elected the Nazis. While most Western governments are both democratic and liberal-i.e., characterized by the rule of law, a separation of powers, and the protection of basic rights-the two don`t necessarily go hand in hand. Zakaria praises countries like Singapore, Chile and Mexico for liberalizing their economies first and then their political systems, and compares them to other Third World countries ``that proclaimed themselves democracies immediately after their independence, while they were poor and unstable, [but] became dictatorships within a decade.`` But Zakaria contends that something has also gone wrong with democracy in America, which has descended into ``a simple-minded populism that values popularity and openness.`` The solution, Zakaria says, is more appointed bodies, like the World Trade Organization and the U.S. Supreme Court, which are effective precisely because they are insulated from political pressures. Zakaria provides a much-needed intellectual framework for many current foreign policy dilemmas, arguing that the United States should support a liberalizing dictator like Pakistan`s Pervez Musharraf, be wary of an elected ``thug`` like Venezuela`s Hugo Chavez and take care to remake Afghanistan and Iraq into societies that are not merely democratic but free.`` (www.amazon.com)

Invariably Pakistanis chose economic progress over political progress, in surveys. This is most obvious for expatriates (like myself), since they have given up their right to vote for more economic opportunities. Only individuals who already have money (like people on this site) argue for democracy over economics, even though many have migrated out of Pakistan. I think people are too obsessed with miltiary, Sindhi, Baluchi, Punjabi etc. This is highlighted by the fact, that everytime I present the above argument, the resident conspiracy theorists on this site, immediately equate it as support for military rule.

I think military rule nor civilian rule, is neither here nor there. Whomever can provide the highest economic growth rate, gets my vote.......if tomorrow maulvis can provide this, they should be supported. If a labor union leader, can do so, he should supported.

India, for all its democratic traditions, is decades behind countries like Malaysia, China, Korea, Singapore - countries which prefered economic institutions over democratic ones...Now they will end up with both.

The News repors today:

PAF pilots test fly JF-17 ‘Thunder’ in China

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force test pilots, Squadron Leader Muhammad Ehsanul Haq and Squadron Leader Rashid Habib, flew two sorties of 30 minutes each in the skies of Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province of China.

The day signifies an important day in the history of aviation in Pakistan. The PAF test pilots flew the newly manufactured single-seat JF-17 ``Thunder`` prototype-1 aircraft for the first time. During the flight, the pilots evaluated the flight performance of the aircraft in different phases of flight and reported that they were extremely happy with the excellent performance of the aircraft in all phases of its flight.

With these flights, the Pakistani pilots have joined the chosen team of ``Thunder`` test pilots, which already includes the Chinese test pilots. Therefore, from now on, the PAF pilots will regularly participate in the test-flights of JF-17 aircraft alongside their Chinese counterparts to complete the ``flight test and evaluation`` phase of JF-17 aircraft.

The JF-17 fighter had made its maiden flight last year, and tests will continue before the aircraft is scheduled for production. ``The series production of the fighters is scheduled to commence towards the end of 2006,`` PAF spokesman Sarfaraz Khan said.

He said that in the first phase, five prototype fighters would be manufactured, three for flying and two for ground testing, and a small batch of 16 jets would be produced by the end of 2005.

Test flight of the JF-17 ``Thunder`` aircraft by the PAF pilots in China also signifies the fraternity of Sino-Pak relations since it is for the first time in the history of Chinese aviation that two foreign pilots have flown a prototype aircraft in that country.

hamid2 laments:

``Ahmed mian is not normal. Romair is not normal, Tauheed is not normal. Even Feroz is not normal any more.``

His lamenting reminds me of that paagal who ran away from a paagalkhana. When he is finally caught by the pagalkhana people talking to a buffalo, he starts whining, `` Choro mujhay choro. Paagal main naheen, paagal yeh dunya walay hain``.

News reports today:

President Musharraf is relative of a member at world`s top website viz. Chowk

Finally a contributor by the nickname of malik99 at the world`s top ranking website viz. Chowk recognized President of Pakistan General Pervaiz Musaharraf as his Nanihaali cousin. Calling him as General whore, he ran straight to his near and dear ones to divulge the secret. However, his sibling rivalary was shortlived as another participant on the same site viz. arjun_m immediately corrected him after consulting his mom, ``Dude: Unlike musharraf, a whore gets to set her own rate....you knew that, right?``

hamidm #33 Why dont you dethrone mushy, in that case. Take a flight to Islamabad, the man will be so scared he will have the flight diverted to Dubai. You will be too clever for mush, confuse the pilot by telling him you will need to get off the plane so you can get your visa stamped for Dubai. Head for mush`s office, and demand that he surrender to you, and that you are now the new Head of State. Tell him the plane is waiting to take him to Dubai. Do this fast, so Mush is as confused as the pilot, and before he knows whats going on, he is in Dubai. Have BB receive him at the airport, and she will then start whining about not being made Prime-Ministeress-For-Life, and drive the poor man nuts.

No problem.

tahmed32 garu!

``Who cares if the cat is black and white as long as it catches mice`` Mao Tse Tung.

With that logic, Modi in Gujurat should be OK as long he prevents another Godhra. Right?
As long as economy is growing at 8-10%, BJP rule should be OK. Right?

tahmed`s lament :

........ mushy is all we have got; mubarak is all we have got; saddam is all we have got; asad is all we have got; hassan is all we have got; abdullah is all we have got; khomeni is all we have got; gaddafi is all we have got ; allah and muhammad is all we have got .............. do you see a pattern here?.............. we got what we deserve!

.......... so let`s quit talking about democracy and accept the fact that it is a western european concept that has no place in barbaristan .........

............. even ferozk, a normally sensible man, seems to have fallen into this trap when he says, ``Pakistan needs to institutionalize its transfers of power in a peaceful manner and thus, remove the sole criteria for military`s interevention in politics``.......... how? ...... does anyone think that the army will give up its perks, privelages and plots and hand over power to the civilians that they detest and deride ?......... now, why would they do that?......... what`s the incentive?............. verily, we are damned ........

For those mentally challenged, who are adament on challenging the improved economic performance of Pakistan, please click on the following:

WASHINGTON (US): The World Bank [WB] and the International Monetary Fund [IMF] Tuesday appreciated the performance of Pakistan`s economic and fiscal policies-based on discipline, prudence and reform.

News reports today:

Gas pipeline, Gwadar port attract investors

By Nadeem Malik

ISLAMABAD: The Gulf-based investors would finance the regional gas and transportation links, particularly focusing on pipelines and Gwadar port.

``Investors from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) are exploring possibilities of investing in the gas infrastructure for effective networking of gas transmission through pipelines from the western borders,`` a statement of the Ministry of Finance said on Friday. It announced the establishment of Interstate Gas Company to manage the project for gas imports into the country and for onward exports to the other countries of the region.

The statement added that Trans-Asia will formally sign an agreement with Sui Northern Gas Pipeline (SNGPL) and Sui Southern Gas Company (SSGC) on Saturday to conduct a feasibility study in this regard. Pakistan is keenly pursuing import of gas from Turkmenistan and Iran to meet rapidly growing domestic consumption, with forecasts of gas shortages in the medium-term.

Efforts are also being made for onward extension of such regional pipelines to India, which is a major energy deficient country and relies on expensive imported fuel oil. Sheikh Abdullah bin Ahmed Al-Ghurair, Chairman Al-Ghurair Group of Companies, discussed oil and gas sector investment opportunities with Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz on Friday. Al-Ghurair Group is engaged in construction of 125 MW gas-fired power station at Mari. The Group is also actively considering to construct a coastal refinery at Gwadar, and exploring other investment opportunities in the oil, real estate and financial sectors. Regarding the Gwadar port development a high-level inter-ministerial meeting, chaired by Finance Minister Shaukat Aziz, reviewed infrastructure requirements for Gwadar and emphasized need for close coordination between the Centre and the provinces and integrated approach between various stakeholders. According to the official sources, leading international investors have shown keen interest in the Gwadar deep-seaport project due to its strategic location and potential for becoming a major transhipment trade centre in the region. Though Pakistan has not been able to attract a sizeable chunk of foreign direct investment in recent years due to regional security scenario (both on the western and eastern fronts), the stable macroeconomic situation and peace prospects with India may contribute in better investment prospects in the future.

The government has emphasized the need to establish a rail link between Gwadar and Chaman to facilitate the movement of goods to Afghanistan and Central Asia. The meeting also discussed the status of land acquisition for the port, construction of jet runway and availability of utility, including water and electricity.

The ministers for finance and railways also discussed the performance of Pakistan Railways and its potential to serve as a future link for trade between Central Asia, West Asia and the Gulf. The meeting reviewed the proposed railway link between Gwadar and Spinboldek (Afghanistan) and up gradation of the present track and rolling stock to create better infrastructure for accommodating traffic in the future.