How real is Musharraf’s real democracy?

re:#121 by ahmadzai
That link to a newsclip with Sonia Gandhi`s rantings was pathetic. What was the point?
Sridhar

re: Malik99 # 106

If you had read my post, I had said clearly that it was a ``point of clarification``. If you had been a bit less emotional, you would have understood what I was trying to do and that was simply state what had happened. You were free to disagree with my post, but when you called me ``you mullah bashing, west slaving, murder rationalizing, pajero driving, steak eating, bottled water drinking, i-pod listening, Armani wearing elite``, you simply destroyed your own credibility as a rational human being capable of an intelligent conversation.

As to my ilog, I was indulging in some wistful musings based on a reading of history. I am and was against the American invasion of Iraq, because I did not agree with its political aims, which were opaque. I have no love for Saddam Hussein and I did not rue his departure from the scene and had he departed from this world, I would not have been any less happy. I think that there is no difference between a person, who kills another human being for a political reason or one who kills for the honor of his culture by splashing the face of a woman with sulphuric acid. I consider them both to be terrorists and people of an evil bent of mind, who have to be erdicated from this planet like the vermin of Biblical times. All the religions of the world condemn killings of another human being as they were instructed by their God, but it was the twisted mind of humans who construed an understanding that killing for a noble cause was allowed and was pardonable in religion. This is what a real blasphemy is, when humans twist and profain the word of God to suit their own selfish and greedy intentions.

Remember, before anything else, we are human beings first and we were human beings long before religion was even a dream and religion does not stop us from being human beings and I will be a human being before I am anything else.

No religion allows the barbarism, which is practiced in its name. I am a person, who lives in the twenty-first century and I have no wish to live in the darkened ages of a seventh century, when female infanticide was still common and was considered as an honorable custom. I have faith that one day my poor blighted nation, which has suffered so much at the hands of fools, will have new birth of freedom. I have faith in my nation that it will one day reach the threshold of the dream, which many sowed with the last drops of their blood and I know, in my heart, that meaning of Pakistan was not supposed to a nation of the ignorant by the ignorant and for the ignorant.

The future of Pakistan lies ahead and if neccessary, this nation has to be dragged by its hairs kicking and screaming into the future. Some people will be left behind and others will resist, but the future of Pakistan does not belong to the living; it belongs to the unborned generations who one day will breath free and think free from fear and prejudice. Pakistan has to move ahead no matter how bitter the cost and no matter how difficult the hurdles. Those who resist, will have to be swept aside for the betterment of the future generations and in the end, the cost of all the spilled blood will be measured in the prosperity of the future, which was paid in the blood of Pakistanis.

In a cold calculating sense, if a thousand or a hundred thousand die so that a million or a hundred million and more can have a future, then I am willing to make that bargain. If Pakistan has to be rescued from Pakistan, then it must be rescued and if Pakistanis are Pakistan`s worst enemies, then they have to fought and defeated and killed in order that Pakistan may live.

Sir, you talked about your admiration of American idealism and when you admire the American idealism, remember that idealism was won by people willing to shed the last drop their blood. People, who believed in this idealism, bled upon the bridges in Lexington and Yorktown; they bled on the fields of Gettysburgs of a war, which saw more Americans kill Americans than Americans were killed in entire Vietnam War and they fought for this idealism that all humans are created equal and endowed with freedom on the fields of France with names like Bellau Woods and the Argonne Forest. They fought and died by the thousands so that this idealism of freedom and equality can free the people, who dreaded the names of the places like Bergen Belsen and Nordhausen and they fought for this idealism from Kasserine Pass to the beaches of Normandy.

I may dislike the American reasons for invading Iraq, but I can never forget the thousands of Americans, who left their homes and died in foreign fields, so others may also share in their idealism and learn to cherish it enough to consider dying for it. I respect the Americans, because they know that idealism demands blood.

Idealism is attained by blood and more blood and in Pakistan, we have to shed blood and our own blood if necessary, because our idealism for a better Pakistan demands it.

Ciao

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Mohar11, I love how you try and dramatize the situation even more. And, excuse me for my naivete but I still don`t see the irony you so excitedly are trying to point out.

Sir, with all due respect, step out of your bias and see the actual situation for how it is. The muslims that are opressed in Kashmir did not initially pose any threat to India on the whole. Also, again as I pointed out earlier, the blood of the people is at the hands of the tribal elders who refused to let the army administer the area is it is supposed to . It is called FATA, Federally Administered Tribal Area, notice how federally adminstered preceeds tribal area ? The object of the army is not to wipe out the ``Tribal culture``, you along with the tribals, so highly revere. It is to administer and have control over a part of PAKISTAN ! (Kindly refrain from making baseless analogies)

You speak of referendums; what kind of a referendum do you want ? Grant the population of India such leverage and you`ll soon lose India to about a 100 smaller independant states.

Lastly, did anybody ever introduce you to utilitarianism ?

Wana solution for kashmir,

When pakistan talks about aa just solution for kashmir, it is the wana example they have in their minds. After pillaging a few tribals and demolishing their houses, the mighty pak army has withdrawn, for fear of being massacred by the jihadis. They lost 50 men, a lot more were taken prisoners, in charectaristic pak army way of 90,000 surrendered. Now that valient pak army has retreated so that the alquida can come back.
This one has to remeber in the oft repeated talks in pakistan about the territorial integrity, no one even the romairs and ferzoks talk of the wana territory.

Then of course there is the legend, no one has controlled the wana region, including alexander. No one cares to ask about the lord, ``daisy cutter``, that is what has demolished the mighty jihadic army of taliban. Now taliban are in wana, and all that is needed is a few more of this.

The so called war on terror is the war on jihad, the soldiers of god who seek death just like how the others seek life, and the only way to succeed is to deliver shehdad to them at their own door steps, in the car and on the wheel chair.

Real democracy,

There is something to be proud of for the intelectuals of pakistan in todays news, especially for the tahmeds who maintain that honourkilling is some tribal tradition, not legitimised by the pak constitution. A man has been sentenced for 23 years in prison for defaming the military, while the killers of women go scot free and are invited by the president to reassure that the honour killing laws will stay.

Pathetic to see pakistanis talking about democracy while the educated elites of pakistan like YLH and tahmed try to white wash the crime against women.

Mohar11:

Many questions you have asked and Sameem provided you many answers. Can I ask you a question, since many Pakistanis would be interested in having an answer on it?

Kindly click here to read the article and tell us why has militancy increased so much in India.

Tauheed at 108:

On a rude awakening to Pakistan in 9/11, I totally agree with you. The rude awakening has been a blessing in disguise. You are absolutely right. Pre-9/11, lashkars were seriously challenging the state write inside Pakistan.

Pakistanis as a confident market of 140 million people, militarily strong and at a point of economic take-off, should be out of our emotional self and telling the whole world loudly and proudly that we are back in the race of economic development and prosperity and will reach the top. Unfortunately, our Islamists are bet upon giving such a pessimistic picture of Pakistan to the world that it seems Pakistan is the most unstable place in the world.

My only concern is the gloom and doom picture painted by Islamists may be taking more and more people away from constructive contribution to the country to negative.

Zain Malik:

You are being emotional about 7,500 soldiers moving in WANA to nab perhaps 400 people. This is blowing picture out of proportion. The world gets a very negative picture of Pakistan on this unnecessary hue and cry. Instead we need people like you to be traveling all across the globe selling Pakistan`s salient features for foreign investment.

In the NWFP we need foreign tourists to come, because the province is heavily dependent on tourism. We don`t have any other alternative to boost economy. Our entire travel industry depends upon cultural tourism and adventure travel. Adventure travelers come to the province for trekking and mountaineering, whereas cultural tourists head straight for Kalash Valley. Some weirdoes do try their hands at Peshawar-Landikotal antique safari train. If you people keep raising unnecessary noise on something very small, our industry will die. As it is, people are facing problem. Yet being good Muslims that we (Pakhtoons)are, we have to be super-emotional about everything. We are bent upon listening to Islamists who we know will choke off any economic prospects that we (Pakhtoons of NWFP) have.

You need to realize our problems and help our people make their lives better even if they don`t know what is good for them. My family could have also joined the pessimist brigade, but only 4 years of college education in the USA has taught me to take a realistic view of the situation. If the people of our province continue giving into emotional rhetorics, the economy will go southwardly at a time when our population will be going northwardly. Just imagine the mess we (Pakhtoons) will be in.

The best course of action is to let opposition battle it out in the parliament and for us to do positive things for the country.

The success of India has been that it detached its day to day chores from the socio-political problem it faces. The world only sees the optimistic face of India, a country of 250 million strong middle class, Bollywood, IT, outsourcing, growing economic and military might, etc. No body focuses on its poverty level of 300 million or so, ethnic and religious discords and killings, secessionist movements and associated violence, etc that far exceeds the levels we have in Pakistan.

tahmed32 - no one ever said that truth DOES NOT hurt :) Now that I have given you a good dose of truth, you are in the ``denial`` phase of your recovery. The next stage would be ``acceptance``. Keep it up.

ahmedzai #108 The internet is indeed an interesting development - previously, the geniuses you mention (and I am of course quite familiar with such individuals) kept their nonsense to themselves and to anyone willing to listen to them. With the internet, they write chain letters, show up on discussion groups like chowk. Even on the internet they dont matter.

It is when they start getting money and arms that things get serious. That is where I think the Pakistani governments from Zia on down have failed us in allowing them to become a menace to Pakistani society. I am convinced that if 9/11 had not happened, we could well have had civil war between the government and the lashkars in Pakistan. In a sense, that is what is happening now in Wana, except that it is not the local lashkars but foreign thugs that the government is cleaning up.

malik #113 Unless you can back your cheap insults by quoting something I have written, I will ignore what you have written.

tahmed32: you wrote: ``And certainly not expat Pakistanis who spit upon the land they left behind and spit upon the land they now live in ``

i do not spit on the land i left and certainly do not spit on the land i live in. However, unlike you, i am not a good slave either.

Let me introduce you to a nobler concept of citizenship - that is, you stay vigilant of your government and you point out where it goes wrong instead of slavishly applauding every act. Unlike your enslaved self, I did not take the oath of my american citizenship to take the country as it is and leave it as it is when i die. I will do my darn best to leave it better than i found it. I want my adopted country to stay in the leadership role - not by committing genocides but by its idealism and its spirit of innovation. I will not allow my new country to be hijacked by a bunch of mid-western fundamentalist christians who have taken it upon themselves to ease the way for Messiah`s second coming.

tahmed32 - let your mind be free of prejudices. Contain your inferiority complex and you will realize that you too have just as much to contribute to your adopted country as your adopted country has contributed to you.

``RAWALPINDI, Pakistan (Reuters) - A Pakistani opposition leader was sentenced to 23 years in prison on Monday after he was accused of defaming the military and trying to incite a mutiny.``

if a civilian can get 23 years for -- ``defaming the military`` -- an already defamed army of coup d`tat after coup d`tat -- then that RENEGADE SOLDIER Musharraf should get a LIFE SENTENCE -- without Parole......

.......for he is the BIGGEST DEFAMER of that Unprofessional Pak Army -- run by a Cushy Cabal of Pot- Bellied -- Purloining -- Pilfering.....Greedy Generals...

ahmadzai #109 - You wrote ``I hope that you don`t talk to them about President Pervaiz Musharraf as whore and military as an institution of criminals, because foreign travelers are indifferent to this piece of information. Instead, you share positive things about your country``

First of all, I have very high respect of Pakistani military. Many generations of my family have honorably served in it. How it is being used today by a whorish General is another question.

Regarding your rest of the statement - It may come as a surprise to you that most of the backpackers that i have met in my many years of travelling tend to be fairly knowledgeable about the world affairs. They have a better than average sense of what is going on around the world. They openly criticize the insensitivity of West towards poor countries. They openly talk about the racism in their societies. They have no inhibitions telling me about the good AND bad in their societies. In this setting, why should I pretend that my country is ruled by a ``benevolent and just`` ruler or that he is answerable to none except his own people? Why should I lie when they don`t? I will be doing disservice to my country if i do that. Why shouldn`t i tell them that their democracy preaching governments are supporting a dictator. If you and I won`t tell them, how else would they know enough to put pressure on their governments to stop supporting dictators?

Sir, the world of nationalist aspirations is an old world. In the new world, its the ideas that matter. If you have ever been in an anti-war protest, you would see that there are people in it to whom war will have no effect whatsoever. What takes a Brazilian to shout slogans aagainst war in Iraq? What takes a Pakistani to join the protest against intervention in Haiti? Sir, as Bob Marley sang ``One World`` - this idea may seem pie in the sky or the dream of stupid young people, but it will come to bear one day, God willing.

#112 by Sameem
//...attack, therefore, has no religious connotations attached to it...//

May be. But I am surprised you don`t see the irony here .... After years of shedding crocodile tears about muslims in Palestine and Kashmir or wherever, Pakis are doing exactly the same thing that they accuse the jews. Destroying homes using bulldozer, killing civilians from gunships.
+++

//...I see nothing wrong with the Pakistani Army putting their allegience with Pakistan...//

You don`t? That`s surprising - what about self-determination for the tribals? You can`t force these poor people to pay allegiance to pakistan. Tribals have their own culture. So why don`t you guys hold some referendum there?

++++

//...The Pakistani Army of 70,000 is not killing the muslim women and children in Wana, it is protecting the millions of women and children in Pakistan..//

Really - paki army is protecting women and children in pakistan by firing missiles into a bus carrying women and children in WANA?