How real is Musharraf’s real democracy?

arjun at # 81:

``Not the USAF though...They still ``accidentally`` bomb Paki territory... ``

However, have you noticed stratnge phenomena:

1. USAF accidentally bomb Paki territory, but result appears in fundoo Indooland.

2. US planes accidentally bomb on Pakistan tribal areas, but deaths and injuries of the innocent happen deep inside the territory of India, another success story.

:-)

malik99 at # 88:

Boss, where are you getting this info from - Nawa-e-Waqt or Jasarat?

May I suggest that you read Dawn, News, and Jang for a picture based on facts rather than emotional propaganda by MMA wallas? I also recommend that you watch GEO TV telecasts in the USA to get true picture. Especially watch Capital Talk with Hamid Mir.

And why I am so confident that folks like you are giving into emotionalism, because I know the people running the campaign on the basis of emotionalism. I come from a background where my relatives from maternal side are JUI and JI supporters. We have gotten elected MPAs and Councillors. I know that they have no program of economic development and social upliftment. They only have 1 card - religious emotionalism. They won elections on the basis of ``Kitaab`` and will try to retain public support through any means.

I will tell you one more thing. It was not that our military entered tribal area of Zelikhel tribe to attack. The tribals were given a warning to handover the wanted criminals by a certain deadline. Safe passage was promised. Yet the sub-tribe refused. When our para-military entered the area, they were least prepared for a show-down from the other side. Taken by surprise at being encircled, they called for military help. In the process, they lost lives and some men, who were later brutally murdered. Army went in to rescue them. A battalion itself came under siege. Because both the para-military and the army had not gone in with a plan to make an offensive, they got trounced under a surprise attack. Believe me that the guys were lucky and major tribe of the area came to the rescue by providing a corridor for their retreat.

If what you claim is true, then the entire operation would have been succesfully completed by gunships and bombers. This never happened. Military and local Government decided to give the hostile tribe a 2nd chance, although after listening to the Core Commander of Peshawar, I had thought thats it. Now its a major military operation now. Thanks God I was wrong.

Guys you need to come to grips with reality. What offensive on ``poor defenseless Muslim tribesmen`` are you talking about. The terrorists almost wiped out our para-military and forced the army to retreat under a surprise offensive. Have you ever wondered who the terrorists chose to kill to send a message?

stuka #84 that is true. actually, things dont go too well either if you eat kebabs at the the kebab shop in Pakistan (or any third world country) right after coming from a western country. you need a few days acclimatization period to give time for the anti-bodies to build up. As I used to discover the first few times I went back to Pakistan until I got sadder but wiser, and stuck to home cooking for a few days before venturing to the kebab shop.

malik #89 Let us examine the issues that you list for Pakistan.

``- injustice
- economic depravity to the point of committing suicides
- education
- Police brutality
- Landlords keeping entire towns virtually slaves ``

1. Injustice: Agreed. Lets start with the most widespread: rich/poor gap. Dont blame the US for it though. Blame yourself. How much of your income have you contributed to the poor? As I recall, you had the time and money to travel from the US to europe, and then go backpacking around europe.

Lets look at the most disgusting: the poor women languishing in jail on account of Hadood Laws. Guess who is pushing to keep those laws around, and to introduce more such absurd and devilish sharia laws (which violate not just common sense, decency, but the very Quran itself)? Your beloved mullahs.

2. Economic depravity: Agreed.

3. Education: Agreed. See 1. above.

4. Police brutality: Agreed. Is the answer to police brutality to start attacking shias??

5. Landlords: Agreed. See 1. above for who is responsible.


You try to justify terrorism, I see. And you think it is justified by that most slavish of excuses: ``everybody does it``. No my friend, everybody does not go around placing bombs in streets and attacking train passengers and so forth. While human history is littered with brutality, it has steadily progressed beyond its primitive past (although you dont know this, it seems). Even in the past, there were men far more enlightened that your line of thinking: including among muslims, as in case of Salahuddin Ayubi, who is so much respected for his chivalrous behavior in battle that his once sworn enemies - the brits - still remember him a thousand years after he had died, and named their most successful post WWII armored vehicle, the Saladin, after him.

Rest assured Salauddin Ayubi was a slave to no man. Only a man who understood honor and chivalry. Something you need to understand in order to stop justifying terrorism. You can no more teach honor to a terrorist or a mullah than you can teach a dog to solve differential equations. So, stop trying to pretend that terrorism is not the issue.

#84 by stuka

Hindus aren`t allowed to hold office in pakistan. Nobody other than a pious muslim can hold the highest office. So there goes your chance.

Here we go again,

So for the pakistanis it is roti kapda and makhan. Give us all a break, the charitable organisations of pakistan are running the madrassas and they are teaching jihad. They are not interested in teaching anything that can get them a job other than in the military.

Ifg the so called basic needs are the priority for the pakistanis, howcome no one is interested in changing what the amdrassas teach, How come it has to be forced by the yanks. Pakistan is an islamic country, it is created for religioun, and reaching heaven is the ultimate aim of religion. Jihad is the only assured way to heaven in islam.

So jihad is more important that any roti and all that crap. In kargill jihadis were eating grass to kill the kafirs and to be killed.

It is time for the tahmed and ferzoks to tell some home truths about pakitsan from their experience, and not to try to paint a human picture of pakistan rather than the jihadic reality.

#84

``Going by what happens to Pakistani leaders after they lose power, I would never aspire for any office in Pakistan``

Yaar, maut to ek din ani hi hai. Just think of the good life when you are in power in Pak:

- Lets start with a little falconing, bustard hunting with the Sheikh`s in Baluchistan, then hop a ride in their private jets for a round of wadi-bashing in super-cool SUV`s and then retire for a afternoon beer/biryani/siesta in your air-conditioned ``tamboo``
- On the way back divert your flight to Lahore for your favourite nihari
- top it off with a little blue label at night (you have to keep up the secular image, nahin?)


- If you are into jewelley, medals that kind of stuff then you can have some pretty serious fun.

ahmadzai # 77 - you wrote: ``There may be some for skills transfer required for combating terrorism``

You got that right ! Indeed this ``skill transfer`` has been a huge success. The ``skill`` of attacking civilians with gunship helicopters was first transfered from Israelies to Americans. And now the americans have transferred it to General W.

Side Note: tahmed32 has expressed his displeasure at me spelling out General`s full name. So with due respect to tahmed32`s feelings, I will henceforth refer to Musharraf as General W. Unless ofcourse General does something whorish again.

tahmed32 # 68 - Obviously the Pakistan you go to is quite different from the Pakistan I go to. The Pakistan I go to places economic depravity and social breakdown at a much higher level than ``terrorism``. This ``terrorism`` is nothing new to these people. They have lived with it through out the history of Pakistan - from Liaqat Ali Khan, Ayub Khan, Bhutto, Zia etc.

And what is ``terrorism`` anyways? Why are people like you suddenly parroting this term as if it just came into existence? Name me any period in the history of the world when ``terrorism`` did not occur? From the times of Adam, Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians all lived with terrorism, just like they lived with wars and famines. It has always been there and it will always be there.

Just because something is number one issue for America does not mean that it should be number one issue for Pakistan and the rest of the world as well. 10 years down the road when this ``terrorism`` thing is out of news, I can see you parrotting america`s mantra and writing on Chowk - ``ABORTION is the root of ALL evils in Pakistan``.

FYI - The Pakistan that I visit has these issues (not in any particular order):

- injustice
- economic depravity to the point of committing suicides
- education
- Police brutality
- Landlords keeping entire towns virtually slaves

As you see, mullah-ism, democracy, secularism, Islam, is nowhere on the top of the list of average Pakistanis. Its only on the minds of intellectual elite comfortably residing abroad who make Islam and mullah a much bigger issue than it is so as to keep the real issues from being exposed.

Zain Malik

romairian economics,

``Pakistan, for all its faults, has been able to average 6% economic growth over four decades. This is what has allowed us to keep pace with India, without being overwhelmed.``

.........i guess, like tiger niazi and his progeny, romair was underwhelmed by dhaka and kargil!..........

............ anyway ........our economic wizard and jack of all trades (a typical fauji trait) keeps on repeating the magic 6% number which was probably true for a quarter or two (india`s economy grew by 10% last quarter) ........... i don`t subscribe to the eiu and world bannk publications any more, but if my memory serves me right the economy actually has grown by a measly 2-4 % for most of the last twenty years and actually declined in 2001-02 ......... combined with a rabbit population growth it means that abdul is actually a lot poorer than he used to be ... $470 in 1998 to $410 in 2002 ............. (http://devdata.worldbank.org/external/CPProfile.asp?SelectedCountry=PAK&CCODE=PAK&CNAME=Pakistan&PTYPE=CP)

........ 2-3 years ago romair told us that musharraf was an honorable man and would return to the langar after holding elections ..........and i believed him ......... now he is telling us that mushy is another general chun and that in a few years we will be up to our eyeballs in kimchee (or biryani) ........ the man is a hopless fauji !

ahmedzai #77 You are quite correct of course. I am hoping that Malik will start using his God-given eyes and mind, and stop blindly repeating the manter of the anti-US ideologues.

Romair: Does this not express exactly what you & some others are saying? and I agree!

A personal observation of a former Secretary of Information. Remarkable indeed.

---

An aside:

Hajjaj-bin-Yousaf was known for his oppression and terror. Once he encountered a pious and God-fearing man. Hajjaj requested for some word of advice and guidance.

He was told to always have long hours of sleep.

Perplexed, Hajjaj asked why?

He was told that when he is sleep, the populace lives in some peace.

---

(like Stuka or Dost Mittar, to both of whom I have granted honorary pakistan nationality)

Going by what happens to Pakistani leaders after they lose power, I would never aspire for any office in Pakistan. The only Kursi I want is outside a kabab shop in Food Street.

Zakk #23: ``P.s: You seem disillusioned with the PTI nowadays, I hope you stick it out, Pakistani politics has it`s ups and downs and you never know somtimes people who were thought never to have a chance, end up either as the Prime Minister or leading the largest party in Parliament.``

I am not disallusioned with PTI. I am just disallusioned with its chances of any kind of success. Actually, I don`t participate in politics much. Neither does my family directly. they do support PTI heavily, as campaigners. My father was contacted bo be an MNA candidate. He does not have a political bone in his body, and has no experience in this field. This should indicate how desparate PTI is. The candidate whose campaign he ran, though a competent guy, got thrashed. Zamanat zabat ho gai.

The only reason I take some interest in PTI, is because I feel one must put one`s money where one`s mouth is. I have migrated outside of Pakistan to make more money. Plain and simple. I have thus deliberately given up on Pakistani democracy. This is why I don`t argue for democracy in Pakistan taking precedence over economic growth. However, I feel if I am going to comment on the subject, then I have to at least participate in it, even if it is at a miniscule distant level.

PTI, interestingly, is not a secular party. It is a very moderate, though openly religious party. This is also why I don`t see secularism as the solution for Pakistan; though I do see it as a solution for North America and probably India also. Pure secularism, just like mullahism, has very few takers in Pakistan. This is what all surveys indicate. Again, it would be hypocritical for me to support PTI and support 100% secularism in Pakistan.

Pakistani politics has three players: Feudals (PPP, PML), mauvlis (MMA) and Army. There is no fourth player, nor will there ever be, as long as any of these three remain in the political sphere. However, only a fourth player can kick these three out. All of these three have to be kicked out. Not just one. Imran Khan is probably the most well-known, one of the wealthiest (actually the wealthiest, through his wife) and popular people in Pakistan. Yet he was barely able to win his own seat, much less anyone else in his party winning.

I think Pakistan does not even have the pre-requisites of democracy. Repeated elections only result in stable institutions, in countries which have the pre-requisities. It has taken the West centuries to establish those pre-requisites. In the process whole countries and empires have been decimated. World Wars and civil wars have been fought. Inquisitions have taken place. It takes another century or so, for those democratic institutions, after creation, to then result in economic growth. Look at India. It has had democratic institutions, of some sort, for fifty years, and it has only now caught up with Pakistan (what to talk of the West), economically.

If all three forces in the political spectrum - maulvis, feudals and Army - are negative forces, and no fourth force can emerge, then what options are left?

The only option is to change one`s criteria. And concentrate on economic growth. Pakistan, for all its faults, has been able to average 6% economic growth over four decades. This is what has allowed us to keep pace with India, without being overwhelmed. India, uptil the nineties, despite much more stable and non-feudal democratic institutions, averaged around half that level of growth.

Imran Khan and PTI are too straightforward and honest and principled to be successful in Pakistani politics. I think Imran Khan is expecting a wave, like the Z. Bhutto PPP wave, eventually to carry him into power. However, he does not belong to any of three power groups. Interestingly all three have courted him, heavily. Nawaz Sharif offered his party thirty seats. He refused. Zia wanted him as a Senator. He refused. Musharraf wanted him as PM, at he head of the PML(Q). He refused. The mauvlis are now courting him. But his views are not in line with theirs, completely. I think any party would be happy to give him a top position in their party. But, on his own, his party is nowhere. He is a slightly more successful version of Asghar Khan - a honest guy, with excellent credential and progressive views, who is a misfit in the system.

And just like all political parties, his party is nothing more than his own name. Soi when he disappears, it will be curtains for his party.

The Army leaderships have been able to achieve good economic results (6.7% growth under Ayub, and 6.3% under Zia). However, they have caused social fissures (breakaway of E. Pakistan under Ayub, and Islamization under Zia). The feudals politicians have destroyed the economy, due to feudal and corrupt policies, but have been able to establish some level of social cohesion. Musharraf has been able to achieve economic growth and all indicators point to the fact that it will continue. Can he maintain social cohesion? Can he keep all provinces happy, without brining in any incoherent social changes, that will be rejected by the society (i.e. massive Islamization or massive secularisation/westernization)?

This is the million dollar question. I think people are indifferent to who runs the country - Army, Navy, civilians, elected, dicatorships....What they are not indifferent to is who can provide them with jobs. If this govt. can do that for the next five years, no one will care whether Musharraf apponts himself Chief of Air Staff, also, along with the Army Staff. If the govt. cannot do so, I think it will be removed through natural forces, of public disobedience. MMA and PPP are experts at organizign mass protests. The haven`t been able to do that currently, because no one is willing to come out into the streets, since they tend to like the current govt. If it fails economically, MMA and PPP will easily be able to protest against it.. So I am not too worried about this govt. and Musharraf entrenching itself permanently, even if it doesn`t perform. Pakistan has evolved quite a bit beyond the Zia-ul-Haq era.

In this whole process, PTI will remain an outsider, unless it forms an alliance with some major party, and becomes a part of the system that it is vowing to change.

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Dear Romair (#47):

You quote some Pakistani:

``Pakistanis are richer by Rs1 trillioooooooooooon (1 followed by 12 zeroes) or a wholesome $18 billion. ``

The implied richness of $18 Billion, I presume, is in real dollars and not in Purchasing Power Parity- PPP. Therefore, per capita exuberance is $128 (assuming 140 million Pakistanis). With Pakistan`s growth in GDP at 5%, and taking PPP-GDP of $300-Billion (dollar GDP is less than $300-Billion), and let us settle for PPP-GDP, means that the real economic growth is $15-Billion or about $110 per capita. Maximum ``richness`` attained by the country.

In economies like, Pakistan, not all of this growth is in private secotor, let alone in Publicly traded companies, neither do all Pakistani participate in the stock market. It is, therefore, irresponsible and foolish to say that $18-Billion reflects the collective richness of Pakistanis.

This phenomenon takes place, when increase in the stock market goes out of control. It happened in Japan, and Japan has still not recovered from its burst on the stock exchange. It happened in NASDAQ before, the bust in technology sector after the irrational exuberance, as a very famous economist and chief of federal reserve once said.

The most of the increase in stock market is inflationary and speculative because of breaks on outflow of foreign exchange due to debt forgiveness. I am sure your often quoted, Shahid Javed Burki, or also an economist visitor of chowk, Dost - Mitter, will explain this quite well too.

Best regards,
ANIL