The Secularity of India

Eww, I just noticed that ``Indians are more than a little fixated on the doings of Pakistan.``
I really don`t think so.
I notice Indian Indians are even less interested in Pakistan than NRIs. When I was telling a friend about chowk on my last visit, she looked at me and said, but what are you going to do with Pakistani opinions. I assure her I usually didn`t even look at articles about Pakistan, but she was still disapproving. On the other hand, she was interested in the salon.com and MotherJones.com websites.
If Indians are fixated on anyone, it is the US, and Bengalis and maybe Parsis are still fixated on the UK. And the Communists are fixated on China (here`s to the memory of the dead of Tiannanmen Square) and maybe certain other nameless others are fixated on Italy.
Pakistan unfortunately really isn`t in that league. Good luck in getting it there.

#143 by sadna
“However, public hypocrisy inevitably results from state`s embracing of religion, which is even worse.”

Well Said But “Individualism is what God hates most``...``The separation between religion and politics is what Satan likes most.``- Reverend Moon

Indian state currently is struggling to maintain its secular ideology. Doubters from the outside can be easily dismissed. When questions are raised by intellectuals within, the authenticity of an adopted ideal vs. the aspirations of the nation to be known by its homespun ideals becomes a contended subject.
Indian secularism, apparently a necessity in view of the diversity of Indian cultural mix, stands on very thin ice.
Indian National Congress had adopted secularism as one ideal for independence struggle for several reasons. After the partition, those reasons became even more important to hang on to as dropping of secular ideals at independence, would have destroyed legitimacy to what Indian Nationalists stood for in years before the independence. INC actually took up the goal of freedom in the second decade of the last century and within thirty years India had reached the doorsteps of independence. The ideals of secularism were the brainchild of western educated Indian nationalist, who found secularism an easy tool to handle several points of disagreements between the people and the geography of the Indian subcontinent.
During the intensity of freedom struggle, especially in the charged environments of religious strife, there was no way to fully expose all congress workers to the ideals of secularism. Even the second rung leadership of congress was unsure whether secularism was some thing that they understood fully. In the midst of the struggle and the partition, two leaders that have championed secularism, were able to impose their will on the Indian constitution as there were not many people around to question those two stalwarts of the Indian freedom movement.
After Independence, as Congress and its worker become more involved with the day to day running of the union, the probability of sustaining the earlier enthusiasm for freedom ideals diminished considerably. The congress leadership after the death of Nehru, plunged into internal power struggle. The continuous economic crises and the external crises including wars with neighbors further eroded ideological commitment to secularism.
The failure of Indian socialism, not only destroyed congress as premier political party but also shattered its ideological base within the Indian population. The economic realities made INC to switch gears from socialism but by that time it was too late to recover its falling political graph.
The new forces that emerged in Indian politics were not in tune with the Indian ideals of socialism and secularism. They found those ideals to be hurdles to promote them in national politics and endorsed ideals that they believed, were closer to home and an easy sell to a restive population.
After the 1971 dismemberment of Pakistan, The opposing theory was dealt a final blow but it also provided hopes to internal opponents of secularism. As in their opinion now there was no need to uphold an ideology that was foreign to India in the first place anyway.

Hinduvta was not forgotten at any time during independence struggle or afterwards but Indian masses were not ready to buy it at that time. After 1971, Hinduvta became a rallying point for opponents of congress and secularism. With decline of congress, Hinduvta was the only ideology to replace secularism.
Throughout the 1990s, the world moved towards the religious fanaticism, fundamentalism and religious conservatism. Indians were also impacted by this shift but the real problem was; if India also adopts religious conservatism as its principal ideology, than it has a very small room to maneuver with conflicts within its own state and with neighboring countries.
In view of this false dilemma, anti secularism forces were forced to reluctantly provide lip service to secularism as state ideology but their commitment was shaky at best.

Will the Indian National congress be able to revive secularism? In view of a very small support that it has and its constant needs to fight off attacks from the right wing, picture does not appear to be bright.

The Upstart Indian middle class, though secular in its outlook, does not appear to be comfortable in working with something, which in its shallow view, is not Indian in nature.

Khamkhwa,
The moment you decide nikki is female, you twist her words round into a your place or mine. Just for kicks, I hope nikki is actually male and you can live with making a homosexual pass. I know, it`s meant to be funny, but it really isn`t. Try and think above the belt.

Well, at least one Pakistani has a different view of India.

From The Indian Express:

‘One quietly leaves without a fuss, another moves in; you have a Muslim Prez, a Sikh PM, you should be proud’

Sitting in his lonely palace by the Red Sea, Nawaz Sharif recalls Vajpayee, praises Sonia, warns against trusting Musharraf — and says yes, he’s working with Benazir to be back

SAGARIKA GHOSE



JEDDAH, JUNE 5: As India celebrates yet another democratic transformation, far away on the windswept banks of the Red Sea in the ancient city of Jeddah, one man remains proof of Pakistan’s inability to come to terms with democracy.

In a side street off the straight deserted road to Madinah, in one of the guest palaces of the Saudi royal family, former Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif sits in his chandelier-hung study, sipping kahva and looking wistful about a world he has left far behind.

‘‘I really admire the beauty of Indian democracy,’’ he says. ‘‘One prime minister is voted out and he quietly leaves without a fuss while another moves into the house. You have a Muslim President and a Sikh Prime Minister. Your democracy has grown and deepened. You should be proud of your democracy.’’

And he even has an interpretation of Sonia Gandhi’s decision not to accept the Prime Ministership. ‘‘It was a masterstroke,’’ Sharif says. ‘‘She has paved the way for her children, either Priyanka or Rahul, to one day become Prime Minister.’’

Sea breezes rustle the ornamental palms outside the tall French windows. Huge photos of Sharif with King Fahd and Crown prince Abdullah hang on the walls. A snappy fleet of Pajeros snarls in the long curving driveway. The palace is huge, with about 10 bedrooms in each of the villas; the entire Sharif family, including his 84-year-old father and brother Shahbaz, have been living here for the past three and- a-half years.

Does he miss the subcontinent? Sharif smiles. ‘‘I remember my old friend Atal Behari Vajpayee. A sincere and good man. A well-meaning man and we shared a genuine rapport. I want to tell you that Vajpayee and I had planned 1999 as a year of Peace. But it was not to be. If I had stayed on for another year, we would have solved everything. Vajpayee and I would have resolved Kashmir. But Musharraf betrayed me. He betrayed Vajpayee as well as me.’’

Sharif spent 14 months in solitary confinement in Attock jail, but has since recovered his spirits. He and his family have started a steel mill in Jeddah, part of his Ittefaq group of industries. The Jeddah unit employs about 300 people and is looked after by his eldest son Husain.

Wife Kulsum Nawaz wafts in. The velvet curtains sway gently, there are freshly cut flowers in the vases. Sharif obviously lives well. ‘‘I’ve gained a bit of weight,’’ he grins, ‘‘although I work out on the treadmill every day for an hour. For recreation, I read or watch old Hindi movies. I like the Black and White ones best, the new Bollywood ones are terribly vulgar.’’

So will he return to Pakistan soon? ‘‘Of course, I will. There will be an uprising against Musharraf. His popularity is at an all-time low. Benazir and I may find a common agenda to restore democracy. We talk to each other often. Musharraf says the opposition is being run from Dubai and Jeddah, and guess what,’’ he smiles broadly, ‘‘he’s right.’’

He sips his tea and frowns, ‘‘Tell me, why is America supporting a military dictator? I don’t understand! And after the recent American outrages, even people like me and Benazir, liberal progressive people are feeling angry at America. And if a liberal like me is angry, can you imagine what the others feel?

“I’ve got a message for your minister of tourism. Renuka? Yah, that’s her. Listen, I want to tell her, to promote subcontinental tourism. Not just Indian. She should have package tours to Indus Valley and Taxila from India. Promote Pakistani tourism in India. When Vajpayee and I talked, we said there would be no visa restrictions between our two countries. None.’’

So what bothers him about foreign policy? ‘‘Frankly,’’ he waves towards the sandwiches, ‘‘the bureaucracy. I totally shut the civil servants up. They always complicate simple matters and don’t let politicians move forward on bold policies.’’

Does Sharif keep in touch with his party workers? ‘‘I’m not allowed to go anywhere by Musharraf, but I maintain contact. When I see how Congress supporters supported Sonia, I thought, that is the way a party should support its leader. So many people turned their backs on me.’’

antihypochrist: welcome to chowk and congratulations: You are the 1 millionth lunatic from India I have welcomed on chowk. You people come in foaming in the mouth about muslims are this and pakis are that. (Most Pakistanis come to chowk quite relaxed and in a friendly spirit - but often get pulled down into the dirt in which you people languish).

The brighter ones among you realize after a few months that most Pakistanis are not bothered one way or another about India (some appreciate the good things in India, others are more concerned about other issues, and only a tiny group of nuts are cast from the same mold that cast you - the millionth raving lunatic from India on chowk).

Anyway, the brighter ones among you learn to calm down after a few months, and some even stop foaming. They duller ones keep plodding on, repeating over and over again over months and years on how they detest Pakistanis but cant seem to leave this Pakistani website either, thus leaving one to wonder if maybe spitting curses and snide remarks is their concept of socialization and discussion. The worst ones among you - brother Jay - are in a completely insane state, repeating the same accusations over and over and over again, month after month, year after year.

So - welcome to chowk. There have been many others like you before.

PS: There are many fine Indian posters too in chowk. They add a lot to chowk. Morons like you (mostly Indian, and a few Pakistanis) simply demonstrate the kind of environment you grew up in - where, as I said, spitting curses, making snide remarks are your concept of discussion.

PPS: You may reply if you wish - I wont be wasting more time with you. Bye Bye.

Tahmed, you`re always going on about Indians bad-mouthing your country, but not leaving a Pakistani site. Stop talking about India, and we all will. Deal?
I don`t know how many would bother if this was just Pakistanis talking about Pakistan. I wouldn`t.

no body...
if nikki is punjabi, it`s a she...and a no body like you remains a no body.... nothing personal though..

tahmed #146
The deal is simple, get the hell out of Kashmir, I will get the hell off your precious Pakistani website. Until then, feel free to rant and rave or grin and bear it, your choice.

HP #149
You are right. IMO, unfortunately, the Congress party will do what makes electoral sense for it, whether secular or non-secular. The issues of who really are stakeholders in India`s secular ethos and what are really the stakes, have not really been solved for ever in this one election.

That is one reason why Sonia Gandhi scares me, because it is hard to say how much grasp she has of the whole subject. To begin with the Congress party needs to shed its patronage politics of the Gandhi years and become more of a cadre-based party. For this, the party needs a visionary for the future, not a place holder however dedicated to the past legacy of the party. We can only hope she continues to grow, and allows others in the party including Manmohan Singh to play constructive roles.

harimau. . .#147

i`m still laughing at this NS interview. . .at first i thought it was a joke. and then i realized it IS a joke.

{He sips his tea and frowns, ‘‘Tell me, why is America supporting a military dictator? I don’t understand! And after the recent American outrages, even people like me and Benazir, liberal progressive people are feeling angry at America. And if a liberal like me is angry, can you imagine what the others feel? }

Nawaz Sharif, liberal and progressive. The man who robbed Pakistanis, the man who stormed the Supreme Court. And Benazir, liberal and progressive.

I guess next to the likes of Mushbush, ANYONE is liberal and progressive!!!

Thank you Harimau, thank you for bringing so much laughter to this pakistani on a sunday morning!!!

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nb: Kindly read my post to antihypochrist carefully - I am not telling this moron to leave chowk. On the contrary, I wrote to him ``So - welcome to chowk. There have been many others like you before. ``

See, I am welcoming him. :-)

Now I hope you will understand why I refer to the dullards on chowk who come in singing about how bad we pakis are - you people cant even read properly.

Unless you dullards get your act together and learn to read, I am going to report this to Modi and he will send his goons over and they will take you to the Thakeray School of Adult Education, English Reading Class (the classroom is right next to the class where Modi himself teaches the class for ``How to Launch a Mob Attack on Minority Families`` and right next door to the ``Advani Lab for Blowing Hot Air``.

So next time you wish to comment on something I wrote, make sure you read what I have written, rather than assume that your delusions are real.

Sadna: Please dont waste your time and mine addressing posts to me. You are welcome to stay on chowk as long as you like - it doesnt bother me since I just scroll through your posts most of the time. As for Kashmir, I will discuss this matter with my staff and let you know if you can have it.

It is interesting how some of you friendly neighbors turn into a collective paradox every now and then by sending a bunch of messages telling us how indifferent you are towards Pakistan. Your attitude of throwing tantrums and then acting cool is quite comical. My observation on your posts is that for some reason you people keep Pakistan as your primary point of reference in almost everything. Like some of you here seem to be taking the position that India is secular because Pakistan is not secular and India is not Pakistan. Thanks.

tahmed32:

Don`t you people realize how much hate-filled rigour you have gone through in and out of schools ? I am not saying this without any basis, like the author of this `article` did. I am citing a report written by your own people. What is it that bugs you when hard-evidence of state indoctrination is thrust on you ? Well, what bugs Indians is when people like Nader let their pens loose, without any basis. Nader says he did not have his schooling in Pakistan. It is reasonable to say he doesn`t have a clue as to how India as a nation works.

People like you are predictable, rejoice when Indians are mud-slung, reluctant to realize and address the crimes of your own people. Heck, if people like me and jay are repeating the same thing over and over, does it still not make sense to you ? BTW, they are NOT mere accusations, make an effort to read the report (there should be an Urdu version of it, check out !). First musharraf split the hair of difference between jehad and terrorism in kashmir...does he do that now, with pakistan between the cross-hairs? its the same, you people need to be told over and over, and finally by uncle sam.

hey, you read too much between the lines, i did not say anything against the muslim religion, just talked of how bad an education you guys get (military science at the intermediate level, no wonder....)