The Secularity of India

``Perhaps the most telling illustration of this is the fact that the laws of India do not treat a Muslim like a Hindu, or a Hindu like a Zoroastrian. A secular state where all men are not equal under the law? I rest my case.``
Somebody made the reference of America.America too has different civil laws for eg. laws relating to marriage in different states. While it is true that these laws are not based on religion but geography, it would be wrong to say that having different civil laws means that people are not treated equal.

ref tahmed32 #48
Congress is not a religious party? I don`t know what you mean by that, but it was Rajiv who tried to play the Hindu card when he ordered the Ram Janm Bhoomi site to be reopened, and it was Rajiv again who tried to play the Muslim card when he supported a legislation to rule out the Shah Bano decision by Supreme Court.People indeed have short memories.
Congress is the root of most of the problems in India, if not all.

``Perhaps the most telling illustration of this is the fact that the laws of India do not treat a Muslim like a Hindu, or a Hindu like a Zoroastrian. A secular state where all men are not equal under the law? I rest my case. ``

This is what Uma Bharati, Narendra Modi and Pravin Togadia also keep saying, ad nauseum. We just voted them out of power. Let us hear your expert comment on that.

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PS: Little knowledge is dangerous. Islamic Family Laws as well as Hindu Family Laws... (and to my knowledge the Islamic `Pre-emption` laws ) are all still provided for by the Indian Republic`s law books. I think a unified code would be much better... The Hindu Family Law was finally amended by the Indian Parliament in the 1950s giving women the right to divorce.


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00002582&channel=civic%20center

``The villain in the film is an aunty who is a leader of women’s movement and supports the Hindu Code Bill, which was then being debated and which, sought to legalize divorce. Before this legislation, Hindu marriages were presumed to be made in heaven and not subject to break-up in this world. The virtuous woman in the film was the sister-in-law of the hero whose home is her world and who did not think there was anything wrong in a husband slapping his wife once in a while. The film was a hit. The film brought to my mind the unpopularity of the Hindu Code Bill when it was passed. It was opposed not only by the Hindu religious leaders and masses but also by such veteran leaders as Rajgopal Acharya and Rajendra Prasad. In fact, Rajendra Prasad, the first President of India, refused to sign the Bill when it was first presented to him. And yet, the leadership persisted, and passed the Bill despite its immense unpopularity among the Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists to whom it applied. ``

British India was not secular but confessional as it had Mohammedan and Hindu family Laws... Legislator D F Mulla, a parsi actually, writes in his book that in case of Mohammedan Laws only the family law and law of `pre-emption` were applied. This continues to be the case today in India... so the separation of church and state is not complete, nor does it seem that the `secularists` are going to push for it. Paradoxically it is the BJP that is campaigning for one national secular family law, and most of the liberal secularists are opposed to it.


The famous Pakistani woman leader JahanAra Shahnawaz, who spearheaded the campaign for women`s rights in Pakistan, writes in her book (Father and Daughter, a Political Biography page 201) that Jinnah told her that he had more or less made a secular constitution on the French model. What is the French model... or what was the French model in 1947 that Jinnah might have spoken about? It was the constitution of the third republic with the additional affirmation of the rights of man... and adapted for the 4th Republic in 1946. The distinguishing characteristic of this french constitution was its strict separation of Church and State.


In essence that means an end to all confessionalism... as we know it... in nation states we can`t have confessional politics... but we also realize that where ever there is group identification and a multi-religious society some form of confessionalism is present. (Note confessionalism should not be confused with a necessarily theocratic form of governance)

-YLH

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``it behooves us to trace the erosion of human rights (The Patriot Act, The Geneva Conventions)``. Well, what do you suggest should be done to deal with people like Reverend Bin Laden? Wait till his bunch of fanatics strike like they did on 9-11?

arjun puhleeze -- u have to think of a better way to deflect things when shit hits your face

Manto:

`` I think a unified code would be much better... ``

If you came to Iindia you would be called BJP Token Muslim....which I may add is a very unfair characterization of Muslims who are basically westernized in approach.

Urstruly:

Okay, I accept what you said but you should have mentioned that in the first post as well. Now, seeing as what you say in the second post, why then do you think secularism in India would be a good idea? You should say it is a bad idea.

You conveniently took one approach on secularism in the inital post and another in the follow up one.

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I have no idea why Pakistanis are fixated on India`s secularism. First improve your own poltical state of affairs, then please comment on India`s. Untill then, it`s like being offered get-rich-quick advice from a hobo.

BLAH..BLAH.......blah...blah.

This article is nothing more than an idiotic rambling.

Though there were few funny lines. The best one ``I rest my case``

44

what is this rubbish of preplanning of riots? riots happen in india, that is a fact. we have seen situations go out of hand. but preplanning of riots? what are u smoking lately?

secularism is about two thing: firstly the state should not be under influence of any religion. that is, it should not discriminate ppl based on religion. this is largely true in india. fringe elements do come up once in a while. but even then, the checks and balances that come with a democracy and independent media have worked pretty well in india.

secondly, the society itself should be liberal. in the sense, that people should be able to live in harmony despite following different religions. since this factor does not respond to any kind of checks and balances, we are little weak on this count no doubt. and this shows up in riots. nevertheless, since secularism is inbuilt in indian national subconsciousness, there is more chance of people actually believing that all religions should be respected and religion should not be an issue when you deal with others.

and this is why india can have a sikh pm and a muslim president. and you know what, people are proud of these people because they are upright men, men of charachter and integrity. this is what matters. not their religion.


i do understant the difficulty pakistanis here are having in understanding secularism. after all they have no experience with it. it is like talking about rocket science with a fourth grader.

but we can still simplify things and explain basic principles. can`t we?

Oh please..it is not as if we are going to participate in a Secular Olympic and will be disqualified if all conditions are not fulfilled.I had the same debate with Ahmed Bilal on ``India votes and How``,.I made all the points there,I would like to reiterate some points again-
a)We are secular inspite of Gujarat, not because of it.
b)We are secular inspite of the personal laws not because of it.
Its the same as saying that Pakistan has a good cricket team inspite of the Pakistan Cricket Control board, not because of it.
We all are noting the aberrations, but the major indicators are there for anyone to see who cares to see.
urstruly ,I am reminded of the punjabi proverb about the daughter in law and the mother in law that you posted in reply to my post on some other board.Do you remember?